Unfortunately that ignores Tolkien.

Subject: Unfortunately that ignores Tolkien.
Author: Huinesoron
Posted on: 2008-06-19 16:07:00 UTC

(I'm refering to the Jesus bit here) If you happen to have access to HoME 10 (Morgoth's Ring), go and read the Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth. A ways in Andreth talks about about the Old Hope:

"They say," answered Andreth: "they say that the One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end."

Andreth isn't very taken with this idea, but Finrod (who is after all very wise) seems to be on the verge of believing it:

"And yet, Andreth, to speak with humility, I cannot concieve how else this healing could be achieved. Since Eru will surely not suffer Melkor to turn the world to his own will and to triumph in the end. Yet there is no power concievable greater than Melkor save Eru only. Therefore Eru, if He will not relinquish His work to Melkor, who must else proceed to mastery, then Eru must come in to conquer him."

He then adds that even if Melkor were thrust from Arda this would still be necessary.

So there you have it. It's not actually a direct Authorial statement that Eru will come into the world as Christ, but it's as close as you're going to get.

hS

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Fic OT: Maiar incarnated bodies by Gandalf the Beige on 2008-06-19 05:11:00 UTC Reply

First of all, I'd just like a shout-out from the local Tolkien enthusiests whether certain things concerning the bodies that maiar such as Gandalf, Saruman, Sauron and Melian used during their time on Middle Earth.

First, the general make up of their incarnations: what kind of body would the wizards or Sauron have :silicon based, fully human, or just a basic humanoid shell?

Secondly, the physiology of Maia in a biologically functional body: i.e. Melian, wife of Elu Thingol and mother of Luthien Tinuviel. In such a form, how much baseline human or Quendi physiology and brain chemistry would have to be altered to contain an ainur conciousness? Would it be any easier if most of the Valinor-related meories were locked away in the subconcious, only to be released in a trickle via dreams?

For that matter, could an ainur be inserted in a newly created humanoid embryo in lieu of an original soul, or is that breaking several of Erus' laws, written and non?

I'm asking this becaus my current major fanfiction project encorporates many or all of these ideas. Not to mention ambiguous orders from the extreme top being funneled through the Valar as concerns preperations for the very last battle with morgoth and all his armies, with preperations including hooking people up, weapons contracts, tech research, missions to find the first Maiar to explore the young world, and an ambiguous prophecy that sounds like it was written by a 13 year old fanbrat.

Is ANY of this possible, ethical or in character for the Valar based on textual evidence?

As to a point in this... by Huinesoron on 2008-06-19 16:17:00 UTC Reply

could an ainur be inserted in a newly created humanoid embryo in lieu of an original soul, or is that breaking several of Erus' laws, written and non?

The singular is 'Ainu', and should really be capitalised. However, where I was going with this was Huan, who is almost certainly a Power (I forget whether it's explicitely stated or no) and yet was born like any other dog (who presumably are not). So a Maia choosing to be born is attested. However, unless you care to count Luthien, who is debatably a Power herself... no, scratch that, she almost certainly is. Look at the last page of Of Beren and Luthien:

'These were the choices that he gave to Luthien. Because of her labours and her sorrow, she should be released from Mandos, and go to Valimar, there to dwell until the world's end among the Valar, forgetting all griefs that her life had known.

'[...] This doom [ie, mortality] she chose, forsaking the Blessed Realm, and putting aside all claim to kinship with those that dwell there.'

If this were a matter of standard rebirth, there would be no reason to live in Valimar: her uncle Olwe lives down at Alqualonde, and she'd certainly be more at home there than in the Golden City. So while it could be read differently, I suspect that this passage is confirmation that (assuming Ainur cannot beget Ainur, and you will note that despite all the couples of Valar, there are no children -- in fact, children were in the original concept, but were then removed) Luthien is an Ainu who entered the world to be incarnated as our dear Tinuviel.

As with everything else, of course, this is open to interpretation.

hS

Geez, forgot the plural and capitals again. by Gandalf the beige on 2008-06-19 21:35:00 UTC Reply

Just for the record, I know difference but sometimes I still get stuck in the old habit of using othe -r suffix on both. The capitalization thing is completely inexcusable though.
Thank you for your counsel by Gandalf the Beige on 2008-06-19 21:21:00 UTC Reply

From your quotes, I have decided to simplify my character roster, define various Ainur mechanics, and develop a better use for various story elements.

On a different note, would Mary sues work as Things from the Dungeon Dimensions hoping to gain a form that would, in theory ,allow them influence and followers, but in reality freak us out?

Oh, Mary-Sues and Mary-Sues... by Huinesoron on 2008-06-19 22:57:00 UTC Reply

To my recollection, there are now at least three canonical explanations on how Mary-Sues come to be. Thus:

a) Mary-Sue Factories which breed them specifically as 'Sues (cf. The Reorganisation, among others)

b) Schools which take normal girls and teach them to be 'Sues (cf. Diary of an Undercover Sue, which enters the PPC canon by the intervention of Dafydd and Selene)

c) That they are a completely non-human lifeform with numerous very strange traits (cf. The Theory of Suvian Origins on the Wiki)

All three of these are true, in that 'Sues have been attested to come from them. Which isn't to say that there aren't other ways they show up, too. They're a versatile lot, and there's always room for another origin story.

hS

They could also be considered creatures of belief... by CirГchen AnekГЎth on 2008-06-23 04:13:00 UTC Reply

...like any other character, as they're written by *coughnothackwheeze* writers (unless Factory-bred) and are sustained by their (lack of) imagination and belief in their own stories.

C - $)0.02 MN (moneda nacional, AKA the mexican peso)

I'm not an expert but... by Oozaru Angel on 2008-06-19 05:38:00 UTC Reply

I always had the idea that the Maiar had rather human (if much sturdier) biology. That Gandalf was described as an old man and needed to eat like anyone else seems to support that. When you say incarnations I assume you mean after they reincarnate? I kinda like the "released in a trickle via dreams". Have you read TADers? It does something very like this only with elves (and one Vala).

For that matter, could an ainur be inserted in a newly created humanoid embryo in lieu of an original soul, or is that breaking several of Erus' laws, written and non?

I don't think Eru ever said anything like that, though I could be wrong, but the idea doesn't seem like something he would endorse. Unless I'm totally misunderstanding you.

Understood rather well, actually... by Gandalf the Beige on 2008-06-19 06:48:00 UTC Reply

It's just that if I am to conflate Tolkien and the last few millenia of history, along with me having a co-ed catholic primary and secondary education, I wanted to to incorporate the possiblity of a born Jeshua ben Adam (classically known as Christ) being an as of yet unnamed Maia born biologically of what would today be considered a pregnant minor (13-16). And keep said minor virginal in the process.

How the process yielded a male embryo from an altered ovum is still considered a medical breakthrough among the Maiar, for whom it was more a side project than anything else, combinging razor-edge bio-meddling with a message of peace and such delivered to a beleagured monotheistic region. There have been some regrets as to the entire experiment.

In the early 80's it was used again, this time by an extremely angry Melian in a gambit to track down her husband, who had been due to re-incarnate but, due to intern based error, got put into a human body. They were banished for a few decades, and meleian incarnated as the "miracle child" of a family in New York who had almost given up hope of conciebing naturally: in this case the gentic material of both parents (minus any detriments causing said infertility) was used.

That gets rid of the ethical problem of robbing a mortal soul of a host... I think.

As for Gandalf having a silicon-based body in the first part of my story, that was mostly a tactical decision, as he was fighting demonic entities, was anticiapting alot of wrecks and re-incarnations, and didn't want to leave a mess or arouse suspicion.

And then there's the question of an uncanonically alive and reformed Saruman inhabiting a computer and the internet...

Unfortunately that ignores Tolkien. by Huinesoron on 2008-06-19 16:07:00 UTC Reply

(I'm refering to the Jesus bit here) If you happen to have access to HoME 10 (Morgoth's Ring), go and read the Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth. A ways in Andreth talks about about the Old Hope:

"They say," answered Andreth: "they say that the One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end."

Andreth isn't very taken with this idea, but Finrod (who is after all very wise) seems to be on the verge of believing it:

"And yet, Andreth, to speak with humility, I cannot concieve how else this healing could be achieved. Since Eru will surely not suffer Melkor to turn the world to his own will and to triumph in the end. Yet there is no power concievable greater than Melkor save Eru only. Therefore Eru, if He will not relinquish His work to Melkor, who must else proceed to mastery, then Eru must come in to conquer him."

He then adds that even if Melkor were thrust from Arda this would still be necessary.

So there you have it. It's not actually a direct Authorial statement that Eru will come into the world as Christ, but it's as close as you're going to get.

hS

Thanks for the quoteage... by Gandalf the Beige on 2008-06-19 21:08:00 UTC Reply

It also makes a little sense: if a tendril of the Eru conciousness (traditional male pronouns nonwithstanding, my current personal belief system is more likely to treat the One as gender-neutral) was the soul going into the Joshua body, the "project" would recieve much more attention, labour and resources than if it was an anonymous maia.

In my ficverse, those who mostly regret the project are a smattering of maiar that are growing dissatisfied with the so-called "benign oligarchy" of the Valar and a precieved over-willingness to meddle in the affairs of mortals while at the same time being estranged from the struggles that they face in everyday life (today, pulling the virgin birth thing would most likely either gain a long litany of curses from the refusing teenager or neccesitate using/abusing the faith of a girl from one of those ridiculously devout sects).

The Valar, for the most part (in my story), acknowledge that while brutality and atrocity have been commited under the guise and in the name of christianity, hold that these things would have happened anyway in any widespread religion, and that the projects positive results have far outweighed the negative.

Melian, as I imagine her, was sympathetic to this view, but after living an a mortal body in a major american city for 18+ years and having to reconcile her upbringing with her remembered existance, feels viscerally that such blatant manipulation is unacceptable, and that autocracy or oligarchy in any form: mortal, good Ainur or evil Ainur is neither ethical nor a workable soloution.

However, in the face of a prematurely returned Morgoth rapidly gaining power and influence, would it just be easier to just go with the plan or should she pay heed to the sensibilities of her adopted culture?

It's more of a theoretical interplay between divine plans drawn out in antiquity and modern western society.

Of course, there are workarounds... mary-sue artifacts for instance. Of course, that's what started this mess in the first place.

Addendum: as to jesus... by Gandalf the Beige on 2008-06-19 06:50:00 UTC Reply

I'm thinking that most of the miracles (including the dead for three days thing those two times) were apostolic exaggerations or total inventions.