Subject: -ve social =/= American Libertarian.
Author:
Posted on: 2014-08-19 21:05:00 UTC
They call the economic right 'neo-liberal', too... according to the FAQ, they get asked about 'libertarian' a lot by Americans. They're using it as a technical term meaning 'lots of social freedom', not in the specific American sense.
Their full explanation-I-don't-understand is here.
hS
Yes, against all odds, all seven of us managed to get to London and find the British Museum by the appointed time. We spent three and a half absolutely bonkers hours wandering around, interpreting hieroglyphs, ogling the pottery, attempting to find the One Ring, and going off on random tangents about everything from Codex Alera to A Very Potter Musical to the intricacies of centaur-human fighting (I know, I know, something actually related to the exhibits? Madness!)
A full report will be written later - hopefully less 'later' than the Bath '07 report which was two years late - but for now, here's our '2014 PPCffindor Quidditch Team Photo':
From left to right, we are:
Huinesoron (Beater), the Irish Samurai (Beater), Cassie (back; Chaser), Fractal Dawn (front, Seeker), Storme Hawk (back; Keeper), Kaitlyn (middle; Chaser), Lycaenion (front; Chaser)
Obviously we lost miserably - I mean, can you imagine me on a broom? It's a scary thought.
Anyway, it was great fun. To anyone trying to plan a Gathering - they work! They're great! Get half-a-dozen-plus-one PPCers together in one place and hijinks will ensue.
hS
(PS: Cassie - yes, I did, and you're welcome. ^_~)
That was a good day.
Although, when are we all going to get together again for Quidditch practice? That defeat was just embarrassing.
Unfortunately, there don't seem to be any of you here on the western coast of the US. *pouts*
-Aila
I am currently located on the western (but not yet westernmost) coast of the US.
Nowhere near San Francisco, however, I presume?
-Aila
I somehow doubt this'll work out, since I don't think your folks would be mighty keen on you meeting up with someone older than you. :P
My dad especially is very suspicious of meeting people from the internet. Still, it's nice to know!
-Aila
I'm definitely looking forward to the full report. Technically I only have to wait one more year before I can go to a Gathering without parental permission *coughdenialcough*, but I'll be in college, so... who knows? I'll be doubling my savings to go, though- it sounded amazing!
It warms my heart to see all your smiling faces. ^_^ That sounds really cheesy, like I'm a kindergarten teacher or something, but it's true.
May I just say, Storme Hawk, you are extremely tall? Wow! Also, I was somehow able to pick out Irish Samurai on sight, despite not having any idea what he looked like. Maybe it was the long coat. Or the facial hair? I dunno. (I already knew hS, Kaitlyn, and Fractal Dawn from Gatherings and Cassie from Gathering reports.)
I'm glad it was fun, and I look forward to reading the report!
~Neshomeh
That means... you, me, Cassie, July, Makari, Araeph... by the Valar, she's working through the list of Permission Givers! There must be some kind of nefarious plot behind this.
Ahem, sorry, I mean sweet, innocent nefarious plot...
hS
I mean.
*whistles innocently and dives off the balcony into the darkness*
The Baronial Council will not sit still for this. When they hear you've--
No, sorry, I got a bit distracted there.
hS
Did you think I would so readily return without assistance?
I mean.
(Why do I always get cast in the villainous roles? Why isn't it Dark Lord Huinesoron or the Most Evil Queen Neshomeh, huh?)
Come, join the Dark Side. We have tea.
-Laughs evilly from the Evil Corner of Dark EvilnessTM-
You see, I play the pure and noble paragon in public, but behind my clever facade lies a vast, black ocean of diabolical intent. No one will ever suspect. Muahahaha!
...
I mean...
Uh...
Ooh, lookit the adorable kittens! >.>
~Neshomeh, scarpering.
He was also there.
It does seem a mite suspicious, when you lay it all out like that. *narrows eyes* >.> <.>.>
~Neshomeh
I'm everything sweetness and innocence and light! I have a halo to prove it!
...Assuming it didn't get put in storage with the rest of my things before I moved... uh...
Nothing to see here, I swear!
Yes, I'm only 13 and therefore can't really travel that far from home. But a Gathering in WA would be awesome. Seriously. It's going to be a long, long time before I can meet with you guys, so maybe something a litle closer will happen soon.. *crosses fingers and prays to Starclan*
ANYHOO. Looks like you guys had a fantastic time over there! I'm waiting for the report with bated breath. Also, there's a lot of runing madly in circles going on while I wait. EEK
I'm in Brisbane, and at various stages we've had a couple of other people on the east coast (plus some in NZ), but no Australian gatherings so far.
I went to the Montreal gathering while I was travelling a few years back, and they're most fun, but looks like we'll still have to wait for an Australian gathering.
I am probably moving to London next year so I'll see about joining a 2015 UK gathering. Eek - that will be 10 years in the PPC for me by then.
Elcalion
I'm heading there in October (Wellington and Auckland) on the offchance there's enough people for a NZ Gathering.
Hi! I'm in Auckland. And I'm probably the only one.
I've taken to tracking the Board statistics as a way of getting some of the same data. So I can tell you that we had 67 posting members last month, with the top three in terms of post-count being zdimensia (204), Anonymouse (79), and me (68). I can also tell you that our #1 recorded-posts-of-all-time is Neshomeh - but that I'm steadily creeping up on her. You come in at #7 (with the intervening four being Sedri, Lily, Cassie, & Laburnum). In fact, a couple more months and you'll probably pass Laburnum - she's only a hundred or so above you, and that's as of July 31st.
I can also show you our visitor stats, with the unique IPs per day in black, and posts per day in blue:
We have this strange pattern going on where we lose activity between March and June every year, then pick it up again afterwards - the posts-per-day extended graph shows it going back for years.
But the actual census? No.
hS
And you're also telling me to post more, if I understand properly.
Well then.
By the way, if you want to know my secret, it's being used to the instant replies of 4chan and chatrooms. I'm monitoring several threads and sub-threads at once to see if anyone replies to them.
...of the sudden decline of posts. A lot of American kids have to study for finals around then. Or are we still unsure?
But yes, that's probably the reason. I've been worried the last couple of months because it seemed like it wasn't up-swinging again - but it's finally started to do so. It'll be interesting to see what our 'January peak' levels look like in '15.
hS
Only me and sometimes DawnFire here. Does not look like Gathering material...
-Sadface-
Maybe next year, you'll be able to go, too? *offers tea*
-Sips-
My ability to travel is somewhat limited, but there is a very unlikely possibility that my family might move to Britain come next year.
Well, not next year, but in the event Sarah Palin becomes President, we're moving to England.
Though in my case it's less "we're going to get a shitty Prime Minister and run away" (because all of our politicians are drek) and more "waiting for my compulsory army service to end so my mom could continue her academic research".
Because moving to Britain for a better class of politician is... well. I'll refrain from commenting on anybody else's political leaders, but our three options right now are:
-David Cameron, leader of the Conservative Party, very fond of shutting down and selling off anything nice he sees.
-Nick Clegg, leader of the Liberal Democrats, theoretically the centre-left party, but currently in a coalition with the Conservatives and parroting their every word. Thanks, Nick! Never voting for you again.
-Ed... hang on, I have to check. Right. Ed Milliband, leader of the Labour Party, which used to be pretty darn radical socialists, but in the runup to the next election, seems to have gone for 'people voted for the Conservatives last time, so let's imitate all their policies!'. I'm'm not pleased (but will have to vote for them anyway on a 'least of the near-identical evils' policy).
Oh, but there's also:
-Nigel Farage, leader of the United Kingdom Independence Party, who want to kick out everyone who's not white, cut off ties with Europe, and as far as I can tell, build a wall around England and euthanise all the poor people. UKIP scare the life out of me, and the fact that they're doing so well even more so.
I just want a government that thinks taking care of the entire population is the most important thing on its list, and isn't afraid to extend that to the global population, too. Is that too much to ask? Apparently.
hS
Let's say that "New Politics" become old as soon as the New Politics people get elected. A good example is Yair Lapid, for whom I voted last elections - a mistake I sorely regret.
Also, re: UKIP:
1) That sounds like the BNP.
2) We have lots of that kind of crazies here. Problem is, ours are in the government - Jewish Home, I'm looking at you here - and those aren't even the worst of the bunch.
... between UKIP and the BNP, apart of course from vote share... but I don't have the faintest idea what they are.
My main problem... well, okay, right now my main problem is the consuming fear that we might end up with UKIP forming a major part of our next parliament, a la Jewish Home. But my other main problem is the complete lack of choice. All three non-UKIP major parties are laying out roughly the same policies. I'm okay with people voting differently to me (though I wish they wouldn't), but I'd really like that 'different' to actually be different.
Also, on Yair Lapid's article, I just read the last section title as 'the Israeli Haradrim', and for a moment, the world was a glorious place.
hS
The parties here are different. Different in the way they'll drag Israel do rock bottom, that is. Whether it's the loony left, spineless so-called centre or batshit insane right, if it's an Israeli politician and you meet it in the street, run away, screaming.
Over here in the United States of America, it's a radical left and a radical right pulling the nation apart.
At this point I say that we all can come to one conclusion: Politicians are [EXPLETIVE REDACTED] idiots.
Currently the United States has a very strong conservative party- the Republican party- and a 'I'm not with those other guys' party- the Democrat party.
So the result is really a extremely strong and focused party on the conservative side, and then a party that's made up of everyone else who doesn't actually want to call themselves a thirty party even though it results in an extreme dilution of the party they're part of, and everything slides further to the right in general.
Our 'liberal' party, the Democrat party, is actually very moderate and far more conservative in comparison to cultural progress than it had been, say, twenty years or so ago- and the same- but much more so- with our current Republican party.
(Plenty of politicians who considered themselves firmly in the Republican party have either shifted over to the Democrat party in the meantime or have been accused of being 'Republicans In Name Only, as a result of this. There's not much of a difference between a moderate 'Republican' and a moderate 'Democrat' in actuality; our two parties are fairly similar when actual moderates are involved.)
You can actually make a stunning comparison of similarities in terms of actions and policies between Presidents Nixon and Obama- despite the fact that Nixon was very much a Republican and Obama is a Democrat. Has to do with this shift.
It's all very interesting, and it doesn't help that since 2008 the differences have been painted as far more disparate than they are, which has been shoving us to the right.
But yeah, we really don't have much of a radical left these days as far as mainstream politics goes.
TL;DR: American politics is complicated.
I have no idea how reliable 'The Political Compass' is, but it's interesting. It purportedly shows that the last US presidential candidates were nearly identical, and, alarmingly, that all the UK main parties are drifting to the same place (at the bottom of the page).
But guess what else it's got?
It's got a test.
The result isn't a single left/right; I think their left-right scale is how much control the government should have over economics (which I think includes things like welfare/social security), while top-bottom is how much control they should have over social/moral issues. According to the results page, they peg Stalin as high government control on both, Thatcher as high on social and low on economic control, and, uh... most current US/UK politicians in the same place as Thatcher. ;)
So I'm curious; where do you (plural) fall when you take the test? I'm way down in the green (yellow? Colourblind), at -6.50/-6.56... which apparently makes me more Dalai Lama than the Dalai Lama. I think I understand why I'm annoyed at the political system now...
(If enough people feel like doing it, we can make a labelled graph; they have a page for that. Also, if there's something bad about the website, do let me know; I've only skimmed it)
hS
For me it claimed -7.38, -6.41, fairly solidly 3/4ish down the diagonal of the left/libertarian quadrant. I find this somewhat inaccurate, as I think I'm somewhat more given to faith in a well-run state if such a creature could ever exist. Would be nice if it did, but, well.
I think part of the reason it gave me as libertarian a score as it did--and I do use lower-case l libertarian, because the Libertarians in the US are kinda creeptastic--is because while I would like to see a solid, supportive state, I was also raised never to stop questioning because it's in questioning that progress can be made. So... yeah, answer is a bit deceptive, but not bad, I guess.
I got economic: -8.12
social: -5.18
Which makes more left-Liberal than Ghandi.
But I wish it said "Liberal" instead of "Libertarian." Libertarians tried to run me when I was little, as a threat against my mom, who worked under Republican Governor Jane Dee Hull at the time.
Makes me uncomfortable. :(
They call the economic right 'neo-liberal', too... according to the FAQ, they get asked about 'libertarian' a lot by Americans. They're using it as a technical term meaning 'lots of social freedom', not in the specific American sense.
Their full explanation-I-don't-understand is here.
hS
I got -5.25/-5.49. I wasn't really convinced of the testing methodology (mostly in regards to the scaling between authoritarianism and liberalism) until I reread your post regarding government control over economic vs. social issues. It does make a bit more sense in that light, although I'm still not 100 percent on it.
... that it'll show us lot fairly accurately relative to each other, but that our relationship to real politicians will be somewhat skewed. They as much as admit that they've refused to move the axes, and thus most of contemporary politics is to the right. Add in the fact that they're making their own judgements about politicians, while we're self-reporting, and you open the way to systemic bias.
So don't necessarily trust our positions relative to zero, but I think our positions relative to each other are pretty sound.
hS
-5, 14.26. All righty then.
Considering what the PPC, as a whole, is like, it wouldn't surprise me if the majority of Boarders were around the same place on the chart (though I have to agree, the test seemed a bit biased. But then again, what isn't?).
... that of course they're slanted. I agree that it feels biased, in that a lot of the things I disagreed with feel obviously bad - but maybe that's just because I disagree with them? We need a conservative to ask...
(And, uh, I'm assuming that's not actually 14.26, which would I think mean that you demand that every action one takes should be approved by the government... I'm reading it as -4.26, which puts you right in the middle of the group)
hS
...I'd have to say that it does imply that I'm more 'left'/'liberal' than I am- which is strongly moderate. (If they still really existed, I'd be a Rockefeller Republican.)
Since they actually include a couple... your numbers place you in the same general area as Jill Stein and Stewart Alexander from the last US Presidential election. In theory, that means you would find yourself in broad agreement with their economic and social policies, even if you wouldn't actually vote for them.
Jill Stein was the Green Party candidate; her statements on these issues include:
Economic
-"Voters will not be forced to choose between two servants of Wall Street in the upcoming election. Now we know there will be a third candidate on the ballot who is a genuine champion of working people."
-"The developers and financiers made trillions of dollars through the housing bubble and the imposition of crushing debt on homeowners. And when homeowners could no longer pay them what they demanded, they went to government and got trillions of dollars of bailouts. Every effort of the Obama Administration has been to prop this system up and keep it going at taxpayer expense. It's time for this game to end. It's time for the laws be written to protect the victims and not the perpetrators."
-"Why should Wall Street be exempt from a sales tax? If you put a small sales tax on Wall Street transactions you not only generate hundreds of billions of dollars a year which could fund our Green New Deal, but you also rein in this reckless speculation in gambling on Wall Street which is a good thing all around."
-"We are all realizing that we, the people, have to take charge because the political parties that are serving the top 1 percent are not going to solve the problems that the rest of us face, we need people in Washington who will refuse to be bought by lobbyists and for whom change is not just a slogan."
Social
-"As a medical doctor and a public health advocate, marijuana, cannabis is a substance which is dangerous because it's illegal. It's not illegal because it's dangerous,"
-"heat, electricity, phone, internet, and public transportation ... democratically run, publicly owned utilities that operate at cost, not for profit,"
-Some of her other views included letting pension funds be controlled by workers democratically, establishing "federal, state, and municipal publicly owned banks," free secondary and higher education, supporting local, healthy food, putting in place a moratorium on future foreclosures, stopping hydraulic fracturing, making a grid to provide energy democratically, repealing the Patriot Act and parts of the National Defense Authorization Act of 2012, passing the Equal Rights Amendment, reversing the Citizens United ruling and closing all U.S. military bases. Other policies included granting "undocumented immigrants ... a legal status which includes the chance to become U.S. citizens" while halting their deportations, and ending the War on Drugs by putting a bigger emphasis on treatment instead of incarceration. (Wikipedia)
There is also a thing called the Green New Deal.
Stewart Alexander was the US Socialist Party candidate; his presidential campaign is quite complicated, but Wikipedia features two interviews.
So how closely do you find yourself in agreement with these two platforms, if you don't mind me asking? Based on the way the Political Compass handled its questions, I guess it's not whether you think their ideas are feasible right now, but whether you think they're an ultimate goal or ideal.
Personally, despite being placed firmly down-left of Stein, I think a fair number of her ideas sound like crazy person ideas; so that suggests that we're all correct, and the plot shoves real people down-left of political figures. Or, of course, they've somehow managed to account for the fact that politicians are always more conservative than they claim...
hS
PS: "Now we know there will be a third candidate on the ballot who is a genuine champion of working people." Sigh... yeah, we had one of those, once. I wish we still did. That said, the UK Green Party is apparently on the rise, and firmly in the down-left quadrant... ~hS
And I thought we had dreamers in the left here. This Stein person is comedy gold.
I made a joke just last night about how I might finally vote Green Party next election, like I've wanted to forever...
But yeah, agreed on some of Stein's ideas not being entirely sane in today's reality. "Closing all U.S. military bases"? Right, because that wouldn't be a problem for anyone or have any negative repercussions at all.
I particularly like the Wall Street tax and ending the War on Drugs, though. "War on Drugs" has essentially amounted to "War on Poor People," and that, of course, means "War on Minorities." {= |
My placement on the compass is probably due to a large degree on my "strongly agree" answers when it comes to regulating business to protect the people and the environment. (Government needs to stay out of the bedroom, though.)
~Neshomeh
I'd have a bit of trouble with that one.
As for my political views, Lincoln Chafee's match pretty closely to mine.
Though his Wiki article gives some hilarious points. 'some of Chafee's proposed tax increases, intended to move the state from budget deficit to surplus status, had received negative feedback from Rhode Island residents.' Gosh, really? People didn't want to pay more taxes? IN-CON-CEIVABLE.
How closely do Chafee's views match the views of the 2008 Senators for his state? Rhode Island (two Democrat senators) clocks at a relatively down-left 1.5, 2.0 (ish).
There must be a way to pin our figures to the overall graph. There simply must. I think I can probably get a read on my own position with respect to the UK Green Party, which... huh, is actually further down-left than Crazy Lady, so she may just be crazy. But we need a second pin... help me, July-wan KeFlamee, you're my only hope.
(See? Sometimes you get to be the good guys!)
(Also: anyone else who can pin themselves to an actual person on any of the graphs can help, too)
hS
-4.00, -3.74, which is a bit more socially libertarian than the Dalai Lama and about the same regarding economical left/right. It's so-so; my economical opinions can be considered moderate left while my place on the libertarian vs. authoritarian scale places me firmly within the 'don't force your views on others, idiot' range.
-6.50/-4.46
Yup, seems to fit with our results so far.
~Neshomeh
From what I remember, they lean quite a bit leftward as far as the test results go.
This is what I got for the record.
I am also pretty deep in the green. I land at -7.00/-5.28, which makes me slightly more Communist and a fair bit less Libertarian than you, hS.
-Phobos
America only has a 'radical left' if you define the term 'radical' purely internally. From a European perspective, America's two parties are 'right' and 'far right'.
Put another way: England under David Cameron's 'right' is still further to the left than America under Obama's 'left'.
On your conclusion, however? I wholeheartedly agree.
hS
But you never know. Besides, no matter where you go, you're going to find some kind of [EXPLETIVE] government. That's just the way things are.
*sigh*
Okay, here's what we'll do: hS, you'll be president, Neshomeh will be the bookkeeper, Desdendelle will be the official tea-tester and approver, and I'll just sit here and make a new flag. Gather together the rest of the Board- we're making our own country!
Why not do another like hS suggested? That would be cool!
We've got enough people who missed out for various reasons last time that it might be viable. I can work up enough of an explanation to let people write their bios and (if they choose) describe their heraldry for me to draw... one thing I can't do is come up with anything to make this thread different from the last one.
Unless people are interested in maps? The large-scale geography is laid out, of course (though the Republic of Iric is still lacking in any feature-names... I'd really appreciate any visitors from Iric filling those in), but if people wanted to map their local areas, that could be interesting. Could be towns, cities, or just villages.
And of course we're still down two flags, the Protectorate of Borrd and the Republic of Iric (of course... have they closed their borders or something?). So that's something people could work on, too... I ran out of ideas last time.
I'm also considering convening the Baronial Council (if I can get enough of my fellow Barons to attend). On the agenda would be the derelict state of the baronies of Araeph and Makari (and the possibility of distributing portions to other baronies), the lack of communication with Iric (see above), the state of the Huinesoronian tax havens (and how we should just extend Ozerbord's borders to encompass them)... and as always, Duchess Kaitlyn's efforts to obtain independence for El-Jheycom, despite the fact that it's never going to happen. Non-voting observers from the rest of the Union would be welcome, as always, to attend...
hS
Give me a few days to get it all sorted out and we'll get started.
hS
-Remembers he's a soldier-
-Cringes-
-Salutes-
Sir! Me, Sir!
-Salutes again-
-Rubs his neck-
I think my military bearing is currently in a holiday in Micronesia. :P
*does a little happy dance before deciding that's not the best display of decorum and hastily straightens up*
Maybe next year, you'll be able to go, too?