Subject: Re: WUT? Why does it matter?
Author:
Posted on: 2014-08-13 22:09:00 UTC
Jennifer Robinson. Robinson Crusoe. The Swiss Robinson family.
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Not enough of these... by
on 2014-08-12 19:19:00 UTC
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There don't seem to be many DIA agents named, much less available for use. Considering the diffuse mayhem I'm trying to write, it would be helpful to have a handful. Here's some of my loose ideas, but I'd love more.
I'm vaguely cooking one who was born in The Last Airbender. A young earthbender who wanted to join the Dai Li isn't quite up to standards. He falls through a plothole to PPC, learns about the show, and hopes that the PPC is less corrupt. He takes time off in the Legend of Korra universe to learn the techniques of the metalbending police.
I have an idea that one is either a tauren from WoW or a generic minotaur.
I looked at the Judoon and Sontarans from Doctor Who, but frankly anyone from either of those races would need a handler. Though it would be funny to have an aggressive potato alien named Stove overreacting to a minor offense.
I'm also looking for a good species to be a "for your own good" muscular Nurse. Basically she looks like she would be sadistic, and can quite easily deliver a shot while holding someone down, but is quite gentle when someone has the sense to cooperate. -
Bro, calm down. (nm) by
on 2014-08-13 02:18:00 UTC
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What does that even mean, in context? (nm) by
on 2014-08-13 19:40:00 UTC
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I think eatpraylove means "slow down". by
on 2014-08-13 20:16:00 UTC
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I know how it feels to write down your PPC ideas and not know if the community at large will accept them, but I feel like you might be overdoing it. Like Neshomeh said, perhaps you could ask some friends to give their feedback on your work before turning to the Board.
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Re: I think eatpraylove means "slow down". by
on 2014-08-13 20:58:00 UTC
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What friends? I have a husband who is supportive and interested in every other hobby I would take on other than fan-fiction.
I was kinda making friends with a neighbor since we were both crazy cat ladies and our tabbies were working things out, but she had to leave because of drama.
I have a couple people that I accepted to my Facebook from gaming group, but they are simply less-distant than the high-school batch.
I do have a writing forum I could turn to... it's just that I'm considered not-a-person there because I write fanfiction. And I'm not sure what would happen if I let it be known that I joined a bunch of Sue-hunters.
My mother dragged me to her craft circle last time I was in the area... I didn't enjoy it. And I did have a hand project: the only time I took out the tablet was for someone else's benefit. -
One thing you could try: by
on 2014-08-13 21:25:00 UTC
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Hang out in the chat room? ( http://wbe002.mibbit.com/?settings=12bf096bab4399ac3d0cc82c41d78b70&server=irc.sorcery.net&channel=%23ppc&nick=RandomPPCer%3F%3F )
Then, when you finish writing something, you can ask if anyone has time to take a look and give their opinion. If anyone can, you can send them the link via private message, by double-clicking on their username in the right-hand column. -
BTW. by
on 2014-08-14 00:15:00 UTC
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I have goldfish memory, so if you have IRC logs, you're invited to remind me. I'm zdimensia on gmail.
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Re: One thing you could try: by
on 2014-08-13 21:55:00 UTC
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I've seen most chat happen at 2:am. I suppose I could adjust my sleep schedule to be up that early if there was a significant reason to.
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Y'know... by
on 2014-08-12 20:44:00 UTC
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If you focused on reading stories to learn PPC basics like what World One is and how CADs work, and fleshing out your main characters by means other than writing PPC stuff (which, I remind you, you should not be doing), you might be able to get Permission. Then people might be willing to loan you their characters if you asked, and you could invent new NPCs without having to ask about every single one.
Like Dann said below, I am getting increasingly uncomfortable with you talking about all the things you're writing without Permission. We can't stop you from doing it, and as long as it never sees the light of day before you get Permission we don't actually care much; that said, would you please keep it to yourself? If you really can't operate without feedback, it would be more appropriate to discuss your ideas with a few friends or willing acquaintances privately, not in front of your entire prospective audience.
~Neshomeh -
Re: Y'know... by
on 2014-08-12 22:41:00 UTC
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Ah, first time I saw Dann's post. As for getting to know them without writing missions and interludes, the only one who exists outside is Samantha unless I actually write the badfic that Hue comes from, and I'm not sure I can pull off six-year old writing style. And Samantha is a different person when her environment changes, everyone would be as well.
And really, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do since my primary team really isn't permission material and my secondary team isn't acceptable. Criticize me for asking before ready, then criticize for needing to work this way. Make up your mind.
As far as I can tell, there is maybe one or two fleshed-out DIA agents. There might be enough nurses.
As far as my questions, the answers aren't readily available. I've read a lot of spinoffs, and I'm guessing the amount is about 80 over the summer since I kept running into repeats.
On a somewhat related note, it took me two months of heavily browsing the wiki to learn about semi-blip fic. Can there be a complete list of where agents come from either on the recruit page or its own page?
CADs squeal, they blow up, they give error messages, they shut down if they detect legendary badfic, sometimes they work properly... I don't remember what happened the one time it was pointed at an agent. I did find one recruitment story about a human, and both the major doctors in Medical and Pyschfic omnisciently knew what continuum he was from. Another random portal-refugee was instantly recognizable as a pony.
People have explained how World One works, but not how agents perceive it. Without methodically going through every fic I can find, even the outright dull ones, I have to guess that the only time I've seen home-continua mentioned is when someone is outright shocked by someone's appearance. -
Wikiwikiwikiwiki by
on 2014-08-13 01:25:00 UTC
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I would suggest you perform a "Wiki Walk" on the PPC Wiki, like I do sometimes. Read pages and when you come to an interesting link after you read a page, click it, read that page, repeat the process until you've gotten from the CAD to an agent's Bios to flower genders to what have you.
I say this because you ask what CADs do for agents, where if you went to the PPC Wiki's page for "CAD", you'd find that a handy chart gives a readout of "[Agent Person. PPC Agent. 2.03% Sue.]" for Character Analysis Devices, CCADs, and- in my case- Cheesy.
Stop relying on us to explain and go to the Wiki, were we've (er, other people have) already explained it. -
Still doesn't answer my question by
on 2014-08-13 02:14:00 UTC
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Half the time when I look up the CAD, I don't get a list, and that's not the one I remember seeing before. The one I looked at had what canon they were from as part of the readout.
I had forgotten about that, but still leaves confusion.
Believe me, I'm constantly referring to the Wiki. -
Four different "CAD" pages by
on 2014-08-13 02:26:00 UTC
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First you have the generic "CAD" catchall page, that's where I got that readout from.
Then you have the Canon Analysis Device, then the Character Analysis Device, and finally the Combined CAD.
Hope that helps. -
Re: Y'know... by
on 2014-08-13 00:01:00 UTC
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Samantha is a different person when her environment changes, everyone would be as well.
But some things will be the same. Playing with what changes based on environment and what doesn't can help you narrow down the essential qualities of the character. My character Jenni, for instance, has been in about a zillion RPs. She's been an anthropomorphic fox, a wizard, a harper, a wandering healer, a psychic, and a shrink—but she always wants to help people. That's what's most important about her and most defines her as a character. The rest is about as important to who she is as what clothes you choose to wear each day is important to who you are.
my primary team really isn't permission material and my secondary team isn't acceptable
Preventing unacceptable characters from being written is, uh, sort of why we have the Permission process. If the ones you've got won't work and you can't fix them, the thing to do is chuck 'em and start over, not go ahead and write them anyway.
Criticize me for asking before ready, then criticize for needing to work this way.
I'm actually criticizing you for publicly working this way, since I don't actually have the power to reach through the computer and stop you from doing it privately. You're visibly flaunting the rules, and it really needs to stop. Plus, like I said, if you absolutely can't function without feedback, there are ways to get it other than crowdsourceing everything to the Board (which is not generally approved of anyway).
As far as the questions you've mentioned here... have you considered that perhaps you're getting too wrapped up in the minor details? I have this problem, so I can relate. Sometimes that one little thing you're worrying over so much doesn't actually matter, and your story will benefit from letting it go. For instance, who cares which particular version of Earth someone came from or how they figure it out? If what's important for the story is that they do figure it out and that the character goes home, just say they did. The PPC has technology and other resources from all over the multiverse. It's perfectly reasonable to just assume this happens give enough time.
~Neshomeh -
Pointless Sidetrack by
on 2014-08-13 04:49:00 UTC
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I also have a character like Jenni, in that I've used him "in about a zillion RPs." It's neat to know that other people have characters like that too. And yeah, it does help to figure out what the bare-bones, most central parts of the character are. For example, my character is a rogue who achieves good goals through very bad methods.
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Re: Y'know... by
on 2014-08-13 01:19:00 UTC
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Preventing unacceptable characters from being written is, uh, sort of why we have the Permission process. If the ones you've got won't work and you can't fix them, the thing to do is chuck 'em and start over, not go ahead and write them anyway.
They got rejected BECAUSE they were my secondary team. There was no mention of them being unacceptable except by their being secondary.
As for flaunting the rules, I tried to do it right and kept getting shut down. Hiding it led to prematurely asking and frustrations on all sides. This way, only one side is frustrated.
As far as changing clothes... I change. When I'm wearing old rags, I'm a housewife and amateur writer. When I'm wearing actual clothing and shoes, I'm a typical shopper. When I'm wearing anything nicer, I'm agreeable to to opinions of anyone I happen to talk to.
Samantha is meek before she gets to the PPC. Hue stops thinking that making Dagobah colorful is a good idea when his Sue dies.
As for these questions, they do come up in what I'm doing. If someone drops through a plothole, I imagine it's important to establish that they aren't a canon. Knowing what canon someone is from if not from World One could be important to know that reality isn't constant.
One thing about reading so many stories is that the inconsistencies get annoying if you're trying to figure out how things work. -
Hang on a second, that's not how this works. by
on 2014-08-13 05:09:00 UTC
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Permission is not about your characters - it is about you, the author, and whether you understand what the PPC is about and can write good characters in it. You were not given permission, which means that we aren't OK with you publishing any agents or missions.
The rules - including the ones about Permission - are pretty important to our community. It's how we stay together. I'm really unhappy that you keep trying to get around them or ignore them. -
Perhaps There Has Been Some Confusion by
on 2014-08-13 04:56:00 UTC
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I'll attempt to be an unbiased third party here, and analyze what seems to be going on.
Zdimensia, you are saying that you want to have practice writing your characters, but are having difficulties doing so in a non-PPC environment because you feel they would be very different characters.*
Neshomeh, you are suggesting that Zdimensia not ask for feedback on the Board, and also that he try to write his characters outside of the PPC because he does not yet have permission.*
I believe the confusion is that Zdimensia hears Neshomeh's request to write non-PPC stories about these characters as a request to write about these characters before they were in the PPC. So far as I can tell, what Neshomeh is saying is that you, Zdimensia, would benefit from taking the characters and putting them both in a different setting, but keeping the core of their characters the same as they will be if/when you write them for the PPC. Hopefully I've been at least somewhat helpful.
*This is my perception of what is going on, so I may be wrong. Feel free to call me on it if I am. -
Tried cooking non-ppc stories for my characters by
on 2014-08-13 14:19:00 UTC
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Specifically, I tried Larry. He's dull. I tried having him save someone from a flood and get a medal, still not interesting. Tried ripping off "My Secret Identity" and he's indistinguishable from the boy. Without the PPC, he pretty much loses his seed, the way that one of his most defining traits presents itself.
It's like if John Crichton didn't fall through the wormhole when he tested his spaceship. The story would probably be about him refining the designs, testing it some more, maybe get to Mars... doesn't sound like something I'd watch. Watching a bunch of aliens on the run from the law does sound interesting.
What if Bruce Wayne hadn't snapped when his parents were killed? We might get a story where a rich guy pumps a lot of R&D into crimefighting tech for the police, but Bruce Wayne wouldn't have the same emotional impact.
Would John Watson be anything if he hadn't met Sherlock? Arther Dent is a purposefully dull character who's just trying to stay sane when his world blows up.
This is why a lot of High School AU's are so unremarkable. They remove a lot of the events that support who a character is. -
Wait what? by
on 2014-08-13 20:38:00 UTC
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Okay, I don't know about John Crichton, but Nesh got that covered. But as for the rest...
Bruce Wayne funding the police. Are you kidding? It could be a superinteresting and suspenseful story about a guy basically owning a bunch of crooked cops and paying them to do the right thing. It could look into how having that kind of power would affect him. How would Bruce Wayne be, if he had decided not to get his own hands dirty, but to let other fight the fight? The possibilities are endless! I'd read the stuffing out off the AU!
John Watson. If we go by the Sherlock verse, they very specifically make the point that Watson is addicted to danger, even without Sherlock to drag him into it. And even in the original he was a war vet, a doctor and something of a ladies man. Do you really think that a story about Watson if he never meets Sherlock would just be him sitting on his hands doing nothing interesting?
And Arthur Dent, don't even get me started on Arthur Dent. Arthur Dent start his story by laying down in front of a bulldozer that is about to demolish his house. Is that your definition of dull? He is the everyman, the sane guy in a crazy world, the one we identify with, but he is not dull. No-one wants to identify with someone dull.
And no, most highschool AU's are unremarkable, for the same reason that most fanfics are: They are written by people who have yet to develop the skill and practice to write interesting stories. But look at something like OFUM or HFA. All the canon characters are taken out of their usual settings and made teachers and yet each and everyone of them are completely in character.
As the great bearded sage, Chuck Wendig says, plot is made of people. You start with interesting characters and let their wants and needs and actions build an interesting story. You don't start with a uninteresting character and put him in an interesting setting or throw interesting events at him, hoping it will make for a good story. It's simply a waste of good settings and events. Save them for when you have a character that you don't yourself describe as dull. -
I think you're confusing personality with story. by
on 2014-08-13 16:49:00 UTC
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To stick with the example I know best:
Would a story about Crichton-on-Earth be the same as the story of Crichton-through-the-wormhole? No.
Would Crichton-on-Earth still contain the essential personality traits that make him the character we love? His sense of humor, his wits, his determination and loyalty? Yes. Yes, he would. And I'd totally watch a story about him just being an oddball scientist trying to get out from under his famous dad's shadow, especially if it were written by such talented and funny storytellers as Rockne O'Bannon, Brian Henson, and the rest.
If Larry has absolutely nothing compelling about him outside of the PPC, then believe me when I tell you he won't be compelling in the PPC, either. Good characters are not defined by what they do—otherwise Mary Sues would be considered the pinnacle of great writing. Good characters are defined by why and how they do it, and the skill of the storyteller in showing us their qualities.
~Neshomeh -
Let's try this another way... by
on 2014-08-13 17:33:00 UTC
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My character Jenni, for instance, has been in about a zillion RPs. She's been an anthropomorphic fox, a wizard, a harper, a wandering healer, a psychic, and a shrink—but she always wants to help people. That's what's most important about her and most defines her as a character. The rest is about as important to who she is as what clothes you choose to wear each day is important to who you are.
Who is Jenni when she's on a deserted island... Let's say Lord of the Flies a couple of years before the boys get there? How does she help people then?
Outside of the PPC, Larry's being pathetic at growing up is hard to express.
Basically I had a story about a guy who works in a shipping warehouse, rides a skateboard to and from the bus-stop, and lives in a sparsely-furnished studio apartment. He trades sandwiches for discs of pirated content and feels somewhat guilty, but that's the only way he can afford to fulfill his love of cartoons and anime. Having him go to a brony's home to watch MLP and deciding he doesn't like it wasn't interesting even with a dropped hint that they're disguised humans in the Skin Deep universe. -
I just came across Kippur's blog on this topic. by
on 2014-08-15 04:17:00 UTC
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I'll share it here, for historical interest:
(warning for a couple of swear words)
http://kippurbird.livejournal.com/302966.html
Now someone write Rustlin/Theo. Do it. -
Re: I just came across Kippur's blog on this topic. by
on 2014-08-15 11:24:00 UTC
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This is pretty much how I work. Before I create the file, I let them play the situation. During the course of typing it out, I'm more in-tune with what they would do and directing them toward the outcome. Sometimes I have to throw away a 200-word conversation and say, "try again, but this time talk about this." It's like running a simulation and changing variables sometimes.
Like, there are things about Kim that I can't figure out how to describe well. I'm not sure if she hates her job or just likes to complain. The best I can do is say that the parts I took from Roz really come through at times.
For Hue, it's really tough to write him in some situations. I wanted them to watch at least half of a torture scene, but he leaped in so early that the charge might not stick. -
Challenge accepted. by
on 2014-08-13 17:51:00 UTC
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I haven't read Lord of the Flies, but I'll do what research I can (maybe read the book, since it's a classic and all), and then I will write an interesting short story about Jenni on a deserted island. {= )
~Neshomeh -
Oh, man, you totally have to read LotF sometime. by
on 2014-08-14 00:52:00 UTC
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The writing is starting to get a little dated, but it is excellently character-driven. Lots of action, really detailed setting . . .
. . . and a surprising amount of badfic for classic literature.
*doctorlit may associate reading new things with opportunities to do missions in more continua to an unhealthy extent* -
I went out and picked it up today. {= ) (nm) by
on 2014-08-14 01:05:00 UTC
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Be sure to join a discussion group! by
on 2014-08-14 01:14:00 UTC
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I had to analyze some passages for IB English class. I'm telling you, the religious metaphors that pop up would have gone over my head if my teacher didn't explicitly point them out to the class.
The analysis didn't settle the question on everybody's lips, though: would everything have gone the same way with an all-girl group? -
Heh... by
on 2014-08-14 02:10:00 UTC
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I was thinking of having Kim do at lot of LOTF fanfiction since the required reading should generate so much badfic. I think I read it, but mostly I had study-hall at the back of a classroom that was studying it. (My english class did something boring set in the great depression.)
I remember the epileptic jesus-figure. I might have to re-study it if I actually go the sporking route. (Would be next year at least anyway... claim your badfics now.) -
Re: Challenge accepted. by
on 2014-08-13 18:01:00 UTC
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Could be Robinson Crusoe's island as long as she doesn't meet Friday, or the Swiss Family Robinson's as long as there aren't any other castaways.
Heck, she could be the only crash survivor on pre-colonisation Pern with a year's worth of supplies. -
Oh god, I just realized... by
on 2014-08-13 22:04:00 UTC
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Her name actually is Jennifer Robinson. 'Scuse while I go bust a gut. {X D
But seriously, I'll try to have something done in a week, and then the Board can judge whether it sucks or not.
~Neshomeh -
WUT? Why does it matter? (nm) by
on 2014-08-13 22:07:00 UTC
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Re: WUT? Why does it matter? by
on 2014-08-13 22:09:00 UTC
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Jennifer Robinson. Robinson Crusoe. The Swiss Robinson family.
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Also, apparently the entire trope... by
on 2014-08-13 22:18:00 UTC
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is called Robinsonade.
~Neshomeh, learning fun new things. -
Holy Cheesenips batman... by
on 2014-08-13 22:32:00 UTC
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I am laughing too hard to make a sincere apology about inflicting this knowledge on you.
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For my part... by
on 2014-08-13 05:45:00 UTC
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Yes, that's a good representation of what I was saying, especially the bit about keeping the core of the characters the same while writing them in a different setting. Thanks for trying to help. {= )
~Neshomeh