Subject: Interesting, then...
Author:
Posted on: 2014-08-05 15:08:00 UTC
That Sauron was eventually defeated by a mission that relied on, I believe Elrond used these exact words: speed and secrecy. And hobbits sneaking around with the One Ring.
And in the meantime, Gandalf was running around trying to strengthen and unite the remaining kingdoms of Men. Pretty cool.
~Neshomeh
So, Ringwraiths. Sauron's uber-warriors, right? Lethally-effective undead cavalry who can murder their way through absolutely anything? Right? ... right?
I'm not so sure (obviously, or this wouldn't be a thread). Think about the missions Sauron sends the Nazgul on. In rough order, from the first time they appear in the history of Middle-earth:
-Taking Minas Ithil (in the first century of its existence).
-Establishing a kingdom (Angmar) to weaken Arnor. This is achieved by causing divisions between the three sub-kingdoms, subverting one, conquering another, and destroying the third.
-Taking over the old Elven stronghold on Amon Lanc to be Dol Guldur. (Hey, did you know Dol Guldur was Thranduil's old home? Cool, huh?)
-Looking for the One Ring in the Shire.
--And chasing the Ringbearer.
-Scouting across the Anduin.
-Communicating with Saruman and/or claiming his prisoners.
-Running interference in the leadup to the Battle of the Pelennor.
-(The Witch-King) Breaking the gates of Minas Tirith.
-Running interference over the Battle of Dagorlad.
-Trying to stop Frodo destroying the Ring.
The traits that really spring out of that list, to me, are stealth and manipulation. The Nazgul were often sent into situations where their presence or identity had to be hidden - the Witch-King went unidentified until the end of his reign, and (obviously!) the Black Riders weren't revealing themselves as agents of the Dark Lord. Even more, they spend their time manipulating people: again, the Witch-King sowed dissent between the Arnorian successor kingdoms, and the Winged Nazgul did most of their work by invoking fear, not by actually attacking.
Yes, there are several 'take a city' missions in there - but it's instructive to look back to Sauron's own city-conquering days. In the First Age, he 'conquered' Minas Tirith on Tol Sirion with a shadow of fear, which drove the elves out and let him take the city without even having to fight. Could Minas Ithil have fallen the same way? Dol Guldur certainly could have, since it seems to have been mostly abandoned before the Nazgul arrived.
There are other traits displayed by the Nazgul - speed, sorcery - but they seem to be attributes of convenience. The Ringwraiths were sent after Frodo at Orodruin because they were the fastest servants Sauron had available. As to sorcery - that power is only attested in the Witch-King himself. Again, the sorcerous power is essentially independent from his Ringwraith nature.
The Nazgul were stealth commandos and semi-political maneuverers, not warriors. Yes, they could fight - but in both situations where they did so, Weathertop and the Witch-King on the Pelennor, they lost.
And I'm reminded of Gollum's very first use of the One Ring: sneaking around, eavesdropping on his relatives and neighbours...
hS
...that Gandalf was smart enough to know that a bunch of Giant Eagles flying across the continent would draw massive amounts of attention.
Still, I can see how this could be a plausible explanation.
-Phobos
It's worth remembering that the Great Eagles are servants of Manwe the Windlord - and so is Gandalf. He studied with Nienna, and has a fire-affinity which marks him as kin to Aule or (gasp) Melkor - but in Unfinished Tales, it's made clear that Olorin is a Maia of Manwe.
So he probably knows the Eagles personally - Gwaihir and his brother Landroval were vassals of Thorondur way back in the First Age. Olorin could have - would have - been there when they flew to Taniquetil to visit or report, or receive direction. (There's a plot Nuzgul for you!)
But he would also have known their limitations - the ones apparently imposed by Manwe, Iluvatar's viceregent in Arda. Think about what the Eagles actually do: in pretty much every case, they are confined to a search-and-rescue role. They rescue Maedhros - Beren and Luthien - the body of Fingolfin - Thorin's company - Gandalf (repeatedly) - Frodo and Sam. The two battles they appear in both include Gandalf - and they are not the factor that turns the tide, in either case.
Gandalf was sent to Middle-earth to be 'the enemy of Sauron' - but not to oppose him in power. He says enough about how visible he is to suggest that he might not have gone to Mordor even had he lived, and he certainly makes no effort to catch Frodo and Sam up after he comes back. He also hides out when Bilbo and company are taking down Smaug, only coming back to fight relatively-inconsequential orcs. And when he does face one of Melkor's servants in battle - the Balrog - he pays for it with his life.
I think Gandalf, just like the Nazgul, was limited in his appointed role: comforter, counsellor, forger of alliances and sustainer of failing hopes. When he chose to push the boundaries of that task, he brought the very real risk of ruin on his head. In that sense, his imprisonment in Desolation of Smaug fits perfectly with the pattern.
And the Eagles? I think they, too, were restricted in what they were permitted to do. The One Ring was a problem for Middle-earth to deal with - and more, it was a problem for Men to face, as they took over dominion of the world. Aragorn's armies and Frodo's journey are both aspects of the ascension of mortals to the highest authority. In that quest, servants of the Uttermost West were, and should be, limited to supporting roles. If Manwe destroys the Ring, through his servants the Eagles - then why should the elves pass dominion to the Men who just stood by?
hS
It fits a lot with the politics in the rest of the story - there's definitely strong political issues in the relations between Gondor and Rohan, not to mention Saruman attempting to grab his own piece of the pie by manuvering the White Council and turning his neighbors against each other. And it fits, thematically, with the way that both Orthanc and Minas Tirith were weakened from the inside long before anyone had a clue what exactly was going on.
To my mind, it also reinforces the whole theme of all the different peoples of Arda coming together and trusting each other in the end, instead of succumbing to old rivalries. (The primary example of that being, of course, the Council of Elrond, and appointing representatives of Men and Elves and Dwarves to go with Frodo on the quest.) It's a bit of a reversal of their old methods of breaking apart kingdoms.
I can't help but think, though, that the Nazgul's methods in the Shire show a lack of preparation. They just go up in their suspicious black garb asking suspicious questions of the locals - I suppose they thought it would be an easy mission, but still, that is not smooth investigative procedure at all. But it makes some sense - they're ex-rulers, not field agents, incognito was not their style while alive.
... the fact that Tolkien at one point stated that the Battle of the Hornburg - y'know, Helm's Deep, 'the battle that ate the film' - could actually be cut if it conflicted with the rest of the story.
Hmm... a Lord of the Rings with little-to-no on-screen fighting: that could be interesting! Doable, too, if you stick entirely with Hobbit viewpoints: the Hornburg is off-screen, thrown out in favour of the Ents breaking down an empty Isengard. The Pelennor is mostly off-screen too, just seen through the eyes of Pippin running around Minas Tirith. The Morannon (which I previously called Dagorlad - whoops!) would be in, by way of Pippin... but overall, a lot less fighting, a lot more sneaking (Frodo) and watching politics (M&P).
Or, even more interesting - an LotR entirely from the perspective of Gandalf. That speaks to 'who knows what when' - it would be a story replete with incomplete information. Will Frodo and Sam succeed? Heck, we don't even know they're still alive!
hS
I can't help but think, though, that the Nazgul's methods in the Shire show a lack of preparation. They just go up in their suspicious black garb asking suspicious questions of the locals - I suppose they thought it would be an easy mission, but still, that is not smooth investigative procedure at all. But it makes some sense - they're ex-rulers, not field agents, incognito was not their style while alive.
If they knew anything about the Shire, they knew the population was largely rural. Nine high-ranking nobles who want information from a bunch of peasants? Yeah, "walk up and demand answers" is pretty much how they'd do it.
That Sauron was eventually defeated by a mission that relied on, I believe Elrond used these exact words: speed and secrecy. And hobbits sneaking around with the One Ring.
And in the meantime, Gandalf was running around trying to strengthen and unite the remaining kingdoms of Men. Pretty cool.
~Neshomeh
... did any of the big battles have a direct impact on the outcome of the Quest? The Pelennor and Dagorlad, in particular, were - in the words of a certain Wood-elf who knew a lot about moving unseen - 'a diversion'. I mean, sure, Aragorn probably didn't plan on Sauron nearly wiping Minas Tirith of the face of Middle-earth when he looked into the Palantir - but he also didn't plan on drawing him out to defeat him in open battle. His sole purpose was to distract the Eye from Mordor so that Frodo and Sam - if they were still alive, if the Ring wasn't already on its way back to its Lord - had a chance.
Hmm. Which explains (yet again) why that Osgiliath sequence was so incongruous - it's a battle, in the half of the story which is trying to avoid them.
hS
Weren't the Nazgul originally politically powerful humans? I mean, the other Rings we know about all went to powerful leaders, didn't they? The big three Elves and some Dwarf lords in their halls of stone?
Why would kings, lords and a king/sorcerer/Macbeth-combo be used as front line fighters? They wouldn't, because they are not good at that sort of task. They would be used for exactly the kinds of things you've outlined here. Political maneuvering and exerting their will over the masses. The things they had spent their lives learning to do.
-Phobos
Three of them, including the Witch-King, were lords of Numenorean descent (and there's a whole bunch of theorising about whether the Witch-King was a named character - or even a King of Numenor!); the second-in-command was named Khamul, and known as the Shadow of the East. Which, again, implies stealth and hidden manipulation.
Of the Rings, the Three are semi-tangential - they were handed out by Celebrimbor directly, not by Sauron. They also didn't go to the three kings of the Elves - Gil-Galad, Oropher of Mirkwood, and Amdir of Lorien - but to the High King of the Eldar (Gil-Galad again) and Galadriel, who at that point wasn't ruler of anything. Basically 'Brim had a thing for Noldor...
The Seven, though, were given to seven dwarf-lords, and we know that one of them went to the king in Durin's line. There were seven races of the dwarves, so it's entirely possible that Sauron gave a Ring to the seven kings of the dwarves. With that precedent, it's hard to imagine he would have given the Nine to some random blokes off the streets of Umbar.
You've drawn out the political side of things, and you're absolutely right: between them, the Nazgul run no less than four independent realms that we know of - Angmar, Dol Guldur, Minas Morgul, and (at certain times) Mordor itself. We can be reasonably sure they ran some of Sauron's eastern realms, too (fun exercise: see if you can spot the hidden workings of Sauron in the history of the earlier Third Age). For nearly six thousand years, the Nine were Sauron's lieutenants and political underlings. Despite the resemblance, they weren't Darth Vaders - they were Grand Moff Tarkins.
Only better with swords.
hS
Amon Lanc was the original Sindarin settlement in Greenwood, under Oropher - Thranduil's father. It makes a certain sense - it's close to Lorien, then also a Sindarin realm under Amdir; in fact, Oropher and Amdir were both refugees from Doriath; they probably wanted to stay reasonably close to each other. Perhaps their sons - Amroth and Thranduil - were friends.
They crossed the Misty Mountains to get away from the Noldor who were setting up in Lindon and Eregion, people like Gil-Galad, Celebrimbor, and (irony!) Galadriel. Of course they still had some connections back that way - Galadriel's husband Celeborn was another noble of Doriath - but ultimately, the Sindar had always blamed the Noldor for their troubles (and not without reason!). So they headed east, and set up realms among their distant Silvan kinsfolk.
But times changed. Galadriel left Eregion and moved to Lorien; she was welcomed by Amdir, but one gets the impression Oropher wasn't too keen on her. The dwarves of Khazad-Dum made themselves into a major power in the region, partly by the influx of refugees from Nogrod and Belegost - and it was dwarves of Nogrod who had killed Thingol of Doriath. Worse, these dwarves were allied with the Noldor of Eregion - you know, the ones whose leader, Galadriel, had 'just decided' to move over the mountains into Lorien. Another Noldorin power grab was clearly in progress, and there were rumours of suspicious magic artefacts, and an unidentified Maia.
And then there was the darkness rising in the south and east - rumours of werewolves and vampires, and of men worshipping a figure disturbingly reminiscent of the Morgoth... it's little wonder the elves of Amon Lanc migrated north, until at last Oropher removed his throne to the northerly Emyn Duir. They'd be safe there, right?
... right?
(And the fact that didn't fit in: Thranduil's halls were founded much later, a thousand years into the Third Age, when Sauron again appeared - unidentified - on the scene. With Southern Mirkwood a mess of spiders, and Amon Lanc taken from them by the sinister Necromancer, the elves took the mountains as a shield, and fled to the far north-east. Safe at last! ... and then a thousand years later, those bloodthirsty dwarves came by and set up a Kingdom under the Lonely Mountain. There's no rest for the weary...)
hS