Subject: Re: It's a proper Tenth Walker if there's a tenth person walking
Author:
Posted on: 2014-07-09 18:55:00 UTC
Unfortunately, you're going to have to wait for someone else to recognize what I'm talking about. In the meantime, have a look at Chessgame of the Gods. https://www.fanfiction.net/s/1518794/1/The-Game-of-the-Gods
http://www.mtv.com/news/1832355/kylie-kendall-jenner-book-excerpt/
Apparently, the two youngest Kardashians have penned a novel. Just from reading chapter one and a brief summary, I can glean that it follows the now-weary dystopian orphan ~~*~*~speshul teenage girls~*~*~* formula.
Thoughts?
Man, I am definitely getting this novel. There's so much I like about these two chapters!
The world-building is just straight-up fantastic. It does get a little prosy here, but it's a reasonable way to introduce the reader to the characteristics of the world. (And it sure hooked me in, too!) I love that the action so far is mostlyly dominated by female characters. We've got Waslo and Master, and one dead dad, and even those two living men are more peripheral compared to Governess' influence over Livia's life.
I can't wait to see Livia and Lex unite and tear down this wretched society!
Also, did anyone else see this in the sidebar?
http://www.mtv.com/news/1862915/jk-rowling-new-harry-potter-story/
Up in the air.
And she's an heiress.
. . .
I guess . . . you could say . . .
*Caruso's shades*
She's an Airess.
http://cow.org/csi/
*squees*
Whaaaaaat? I'm finally reading Homestuck (I'm in the [o] section of Act 5 Act 2), and it makes me absurdly happy to finally get these things.
-Aila, smiling uncontrollably
The society in the book appears to be a bizarre combination of future dystopia and Victorian England (governesses, debutante ball, Proper Young Ladies, all that rot).
It's not terrible, I'll give them that. The narrator (Livia; maybe the second one is harmless) never shuts up, so there's one key problem. You're also quite accurate about the plot formula, and I didn't even finish the first chapter.
Bright spots include the idea of a floating dystopian city. (I'm sure there are others, but I didn't finish.)
-Grabs his head-
Why in present tense? Why?
While I can read this type of narrative, I prefer not to. I will admit that it snuck up on me when I was reading Warm Bodies since it starts off as a first person train of thought about being a zombie, and then I never noticed that the tense never switched to past tense.
I prefer my first person in past tense myself, though a friend of mine said that, after me complaining about PTFP, that if the narrator is retelling the tale, then you know they survive. Well I proved her wrong with my last NaNoWriMo and killed off the main character who was Narrating. So there.
I know Drew can't stand reading PTFP narration, which is a shame cause she was interested in reading the Divergent series.
That's my 5 cents (since pennies don't exist in Canada any more)
It's the easiest way for an inexperienced writer to add a sense of immediacy to the story. And, more importantly, the easiest way for an inexperienced reader to actually pick up on that sense of immediacy while more subtle methods might pass over their heads.
Since this is a story by a pair of celebrities (inexperienced writers) and the target audience is their young fans (presumably including many inexperienced readers) it's the right choice for the story.
My last college writing teacher was all over it. "Is there some particular reason this is in past tense? Couldn't you have written this in present tense? Change this to first person!" No! Noooooooo!
It's just what's popular these days, and to be honest it disgusts me.
... as past (and more so than future - though I'm sure that's been done. How about pluperfect? Conditional? If there were a hobbit, he might live in a hole in the ground...). And first person is just as valid as third. And omniscient and limited are just as valid as each other, too. All the combinations have their uses and applications, their difficulties and their specialities.
For instance, Agent Narto writes his mission reports in first person, past tense, limited (as does Agent Huinesoron); it's a narrative conceit, allowing these documents to be 'in-universe mission reports'. The limited viewpoint flows from that - hS doesn't know what his partner is thinking, and moreover, his own worldview colours his transcription of theirs.
Most of my writings tend towards third-person past omniscient, since I do a lot of histories, but I also enjoy third-past-limited like this. And my first NaNo - and my second - was, I think, in first-person-present. It's great for immanency - past tense first person pretty much rules out the possibility of the speaker dying, but the present - well, compare and contrast:
I knew it wasn't going to work, I just knew it. There was no chance. But on the other hand... what choice did I have? It was this or surrender. Do or die. All or nothing.
I took a deep breath.
I leapt.
~~~~
I know it's not going to work, I just know it. There's no chance at all. But on the other hand... what choice do I have? It's this, or surrender. Do, or die. All, or nothing.
I take a deep breath.
I leap--!
The former is 'I had to jump off a building, so I did'. The latter is 'oh gods above I have no choice but to jump off this building I'm gonna diiiiiie!'. For that sort of story, I prefer the present tense.
(Third-person present, I'm not so sure about... no, I think it can still work. It feels a bit like a film, though. 'The knight rides into the valley below the castle, all his senses on high alert. He knows there will be trouble - he just doesn't know where from'.)
Asking yourself 'is there some particular reason this is in past tense?' is actually really good practice. It's like asking 'is there some particular reason the ruler has to be male?' or 'is there some particular reason the elf prince has to marry the pretty girl?' (ans: no, he'd rather be hunting spiders). Ask that question about everything. Sometimes - often - the answer will be 'yes - he needs an illegitimate son child for the story to work' (that's the ruler, not the elf). But sometimes it will be no... and that's when you ask the other question, 'would it work better if I did it the other way?' I have one story I'm completely rewriting from past-third-limited to present(?)-first-limited, because it's far more interesting if we're inside the protagonist's head.
But that goes both ways, of course. If the story won't be significantly improved by switching from past to present - then don't switch it, that's ridiculous. Write what you're comfortable with; the more you can leave on autopilot, the more you can think about the parts that matter.
But, just like Tenth Walkers, don't claim a whole class of writing is bad. Frequently badly executed, maybe. Overused, probably. Very effective when done right? I guarantee it.
hS
(PS: 'But Mary-Sues--' No, they're not a class of writing, they're a badly-designed character. 'Tenth Walker' and 'Girl-falls-into-Middle-earth' are the classes, and they can be done well. 'Bad character done well' is an oxymoron. ~hS)
Er... clearly your English educations in England far surpass the ones available to us in America. I had one of the best English and Grammar educations my mom could find and you kinda lost me at the beginning...
I have seen it done well, first-person present tense. Personally I prefer past tense when we're talking a particularly long piece. I'm definitely prejudiced, though, as I have rather terrible memories of barely being able to struggle through The Hunger Games (I'm not trying to stomp on anyone else's opinion, but I just don't think those were written that well.)
I do see what you mean with the suspense value, but that particular teacher was prejudiced against anything traditional, which included past tense, third person, and anything that didn't involve sex. I had to work very hard to defend Tolkien's poetry to her because it rhymed. This woman would probably condone a thirty-chapter novel written in second-person-conditional, just because it hadn't been done before (very often).
There are merits to almost any tense-person combination, I know. I've definitely written more than one story in first person. Maybe I'm narrow-minded, but I definitely prefer third-person past omniscient. It's just easiest to read and write for me, probably because that's how all the books I read growing up are written.
I - I have looked. I have never found a good Tenth Walker. Good Girl in Middle-earths? Sure. Good stories about OCs in the War of the Ring? Definitely. Tenth Walkers? Please do point me in the direction of any good ones you have found.
I've seen lots of people say "I'll read a Mary Sue if it's done well." I'm not entirely sure what their criteria are for "done well."
And mission reports are something I would probably definitely write in first person. In fact, I remember a book I once read and unfortunately no longer own. It was written in first person present tense from three different characters' points of view in the frame tale of a mission report for some organization. So yeah, you're right. I'm just complaining about people who think first-person present tense is the only way or the best way.
As to 'I'll read a Mary Sue if it's done well', the difference isn't their criteria for 'done well' - it's their criteria for 'Mary Sue'. In the PPC, it's a well-defined term that specifically means 'a badly-written character' - 'badly-written well-written' is as oxymoronic as Aethelred Unraed. But a lot of people use the term to mean 'female OC', or 'female OC from Earth in a non-Earth continuum'. They would define any girl-who-drops-into-Middle-earth as a Mary-Sue.
Which is their right, I suppose, but it's sloppy and leads to endless confusion. Since the term springs from an OC who was (deliberately) canon-warping in the extreme, extending it to characters who are careful not to ruin the canon seems like tarring them all with the same brush. I understand racial stereotyping is considered bad form these days...?
('But you're saying all Mary Sues--' No, I'm defining the term 'Mary Sue' to mean something which is badly written. If a character has a bunch of characteristics which make it look like a Mary-Sue, but is well written, then it isn't a Mary Sue)
hS
I have nothing to add to this or contradict it.
So I guess I'll just waste a post to say so... ?
What would you call a character who 'has a bunch of characteristics which make it look like a Mary-Sue, but is well written'?
I agree with you that 'well written Mary Sue' is an oxymoron, but then the English language has terms like oxymoron and paradox for a reason. I think that 'well written Mary Sue' works as a good shorthand for 'a character that has a bunch of traits which make it look like a Sue, but is actually well written'.
As people have demonstrated over and over, virtually every character has Suvian traits. Luke Skywalker is a poor farmboy who just happens to have magical powers and amazing flying abilities and a mysterious magical pseudo-relative and a connection to the Ultimate Evil and everyone puts everything aside to help him get to Alderaan and his parent-substitutes are DEEEEEAD and he takes over the entire plot of all three films and he's the lost sibling of a canon character (... ;)) and he even ends up dressing in black and trying to look ominous and impressive.
A character with Suvianesque traits who isn't Suvian is usually called 'the protagonist'. ;)
hS
I actually like Mary Sue stories, but that's from a community where every trans-dimensional story is automatically a Sue or anti-Sue. The Sues are the ones who live, the anti-Sues are the ones who die. Sometimes they have extra powers, but mostly the one trait that brands them is that the vampires don't kill them.
I could even have fun reading a gravity-Sue story if it's done well.
Courtesy Rudyard Kipling
;)
Not quite thirty chapters, though...
The problem with many types of fanfic is that, well, most fanfic is rubbish. So finding a good anything is hard. Even a totally canonical situation - say, Elladan and Elrohir hunting orcs - usually devolves into angst/twincest/both. My story (set of shorts, I guess) shows (hopefully!) that it can be done well - but makes no claims as to whether anyone has. Though I do think that in the hundreds of thousands of Tolkien fanfics out there, there must be at least one...
hS
I would, however, like to point out that this poem is describing a state of being, not telling a story. Still, point taken.
And you're right. Most fanfic is rubbish. (I suspect that's partly because most fanfic is written by very lazy people, 9-13 year-olds, and/or pervy perv pervs of the stupid variety... or trolls.) Perhaps I'll take a look at your story at some point.
And I've definitely tried to prove some things can be done well. I have a partly-finished Girl-in-Middle-earth that is not a Mary Sue on my computer. Every once in a while it strays dangerously close, though, or just gets stupid, so I have to completely rework parts. Because the idea is actually pretty stupid by its very nature.
Most fanfic ideas are.
That sounds like a challenge. Challenge accepted.
On Celebrian
If you had known then what you know now, you would not have let her go. You would have told her the mountains were too dangerous – insisted her guard was too small – promised her anything to keep her from making that trip. And she would have smiled at you, the way she smiled back then, and told you you were being foolish – that no orcs had been reported in the mountains for centuries.
But you would not have let her go. You would have appealed to her, pleaded with her, perhaps even threatened her. And at last she would have agreed, and unpacked her belongings, and stayed.
And things would have changed for you. No proof would ever have come of your suspicions – how could it, for she would not have gone, and there would have been no-one for the orcs to attack? – and so her claims of foolishness would have been repeated, their playful tone draining away until they stood as stark condemnation of you.
She would have left your bed, your house, and built her own, a lodge like Erendis of Westernesse once held, with only womenfolk permitted to enter. Your daughter would have followed her – and your sons become estranged from her, tortured by her bitterness. They would have turned to you, but you would have brought no comfort, for your heart would have been divided – hating her for her anger, hating yourself for causing it.
And so your family would have been broken, the women hiding away from the world, the men – your tall, proud sons – ranging away from your home for weeks, months, years at a time. You would have dared not ask what they sought, for you would have feared you already knew the answer: that they were delving into the deep places of the world, seeking the orcs that would prove your words had been true, and bring her back to you.
And then would have come the year, the decade, when they did not return, and no trace of them could be found beneath the sun. And you, proud and broken, would have gone to her door to tell her of their unknown fate. And you would have heard her speak, that voice that once sang to the stars at your side:
“I have no sons. I have no husband.”
And so, shattered beyond repair, you would have taken to your bed. And in your heart of hearts you would have made one wish, told one story, repeated one thought, made one promise:
If you had known then what you know now, you would have let her go.
It wasn't intended as a challenge, but I'm kind of glad you took it that way. I bow in submission to your superior mastery of the English language. That was definitely a story and it was definitely in second person conditional. (Although... what about this implied frame story where Galadriel is talking to Elrond? What's that in? Third person present tense omniscient! Just kidding.)
Are you perchance a published author? Because if you're not, you should be.
How did your teacher feel about iambic pentameter?
Dismissing something because it is in an overused style? It wouldn't be so prevalent if it weren't an accessible way to read a story.
I'm not sure if it was a proper tenth-walker story since the Fellowship found her after they left Rivendell. She was a seamstress who knew a little bit about LOTR from her friends. Then again, I think the anti-Sue was a bit strong.
Or, rather, the really difficult one: girl-falls-into-Middle-earth-and-becomes-Tenth-Walker. I had an idea and felt like sketching it out.
It's Christmas 2001. Lucy (because why not Lucy? Actually, I'd probably come up with a name that sounds like a valid Sindarin name, because it would lead to humour as she tries to explain that no, it's English...) has seen The Fellowship of the Ring three times already (and it's only been out a week!). Now her best friend has bought her the book it's based on. She's a slow reader, but that's okay - for this book, she'll make the effort. Even if it doesn't have (let's buck the Legoluster trend a little and say) Elijah Wood in it.
Then, due to unexpected and unexplained magic, Lucy is dragged into Middle-earth. In fact, she's dragged to Rivendell - though it doesn't look a lot like the film. Nor does the very tall and really kind of scary guy looming over her look much like Agent Elrond (she thought that was funny when her friend told her about it, but now - eek!).
She is, of course, totally unable to answer - or understand - and of Elrond's questions, but seeing as how she appeared in mid-air in the Hall of Fire, he's not inclined to do anything hasty about her (though, of course, she doesn't know this, and he does have scary eyebrows). And besides, there are other things on his mind... like the recent arrival of Mithrandir (have to stick to the Elvish to avoid translation issues, a la Don't Panic!, though fortunately I've since solved the Gimli problem), and his report that a certain Ring is on its way to Imladris...
So Lucy is given into the guardianship-and-care of... let's say Glorfindel and an OFC, Lingalad. Lingalad because a female prisoner-guest-mystery will probably respond better to a woman, and Glorfindel because as a Valinorean originally, he's had to learn at least three, probably more, languages (starting in Quenya, he would have learnt Sindarin in Beleriand, Adunaic in the Second Age, and Westron in the Third; he may also have learnt various Mannish tongues in any of those three); this makes him the best person in Imladris to try and figure out Lucy's words.
And so the time of Frodo's convalescence is taken up by Lucy learning very basic... Sindarin or Westron, probably the latter, since she's self-evidently human. And just as she's reached the point where she can at least make her needs and questions understood, and tell them very basically about herself (she's had to say she comes from 'above the sky', because she has no idea how to say 'another world'), she discovers that the Fellowship (several members of whom have been concerned or at least curious about her, and she's gotten to thinking that Frodo - beg pardon, Maura - is actually pretty cute, even if he doesn't have Elijah's eyes) are about to leave.
And she's seen the film.
And she knows what's going to happen.
And she still has the book with her.
With rather a lot of help from Glorfindel - who's better at English than Lucy is at Westron - she manages to explain to Elrond what she's got - she can prove it by reading out some things there's no way she could know, like the precise words spoken in private conversations. And she tells him that Gandalf is going to die, and so is Boromir. And, she explains, she hasn't had a chance to read the rest yet...
This decision goes to Elrond's state of mind. I'm inclined to say that, with the Ring Quest being the most important thing in the world right then, he'll send Lucy with the Fellowship rather than keeping her behind as a resource. He'd love to know what's in the rest of the book - enemy movements, threats to allies? - but ultimately, if Imladris falls and the Ring is destroyed, he will consider that a victory. So he sends her along - and urges her to read fast.
The Fellowship avoid Moria, of course, given that Lucy knows already that Gandalf will die and Gollum will start to follow them (which in her mind is unambiguously bad - remember, she knows nothing about anything after the Breaking of the Fellowship!). I don't know what route they'll take - perhaps Boromir swings the idea of the Gap of Rohan, or Legolas convinces them to try the High Pass. And Lucy proves moderately helpful. Let's send them through Rohan, where she can warn them in advance that things are not as nice right now as Boromir would like to think - and she's bright enough to turn to the timeline for the major battles.
And then she reaches the point where Gandalf comes back as the White, and realises how badly she's messed things up.
~
Complicated? Yes (though the language lesson section can probably be glossed over - we know the Ring was in Imladris two months, that's enough time to assume the learning). It has to be - we're taking an implausible concept and trying to make it work. Does this version work? Well, that would depend on the writing - but I think it could.
hS
Got a link?
She didn't know what iambic pentameter was. 😝
Didn't know—??
She didn't—???
An English teacher!?
...
Excuse me, I think I just had an aneurysm. I have to go lie down.
~Neshomeh
Did I say English? It seems there's a difference, and it's quite significant.
I don't know, but it seems like a creative writing teacher worth her paycheck should have some qualifications in common with a high school English teacher.
There was a story that doesn't have any capitalization or punctuation because it was written by a cockroach hurling himself at a typewriter. I bet her only complaint against a new story written like that would be that it's been done.
Unless there was a cockroach in the class... Or if I got a cockroach and set it on my keyboard... Okay, maybe I would go that far.
She told me that I was limiting myself when I was trying to make my poems rhyme and set a rhythm. I guess I see her point, but it's actually much easier for me to write poems with a more traditional rhythm.
Did this story have a plot?
Unfortunately, you're going to have to wait for someone else to recognize what I'm talking about. In the meantime, have a look at Chessgame of the Gods. https://www.fanfiction.net/s/1518794/1/The-Game-of-the-Gods
It's really very funny. Perhaps I'll read it again sometime...
I don't follow celebrities closely (too little advanced mathematics to hold my interest, I'm afraid...), but I don't recall entities by the names of "Kylie" or "Kendall" doing anything particularly groanworthy, so I'm coming into this with a completely open mind. The premise seems dull and the prose uninspiring, but the Space Gods know my first attempt at a novel was worse. If they want to do something productive with their lives, more power to them.
Well, it caught my interest, anyway. Not bad writing, actually, and I'm a pretty big fan of dystopian perfect societies. Sure, the "I hate being so privileged and awesome" thing is done to death, but I'd imagine someone from that background would have a pretty dang accurate insight into how it feels living in the shadow of Very Important Relatives, because of whom you have more wealth than you could possibly need, and a status you did nothing to obtain and probably don't really want.
I'm interested, anyway.