Yeah, more serious/dramatic is okay, grimdark isn't.

Subject: Yeah, more serious/dramatic is okay, grimdark isn't.
Author: Ekyl
Posted on: 2014-06-23 23:30:00 UTC

Nowhere is it forbidden to have stories that're a bit more serious (except Sedri's words on the wiki's mission guide, I suppose...), and of course the dynamic you want where a lighter character is paired with a darker, more grim one is fine, but the sticking point is how you're going about establishing that. Aside from the fact you've got drama and grimdark confused as Phobos just pointed out, you seem to be twisting or misconstruing the methods and purpose of the involved departments just for the sake of enabling melodrama; it might be better to take a couple steps back and reevaluate what you plan to do here.

Besides, I don't think a cartoon horse is really the best fit for this kind of story.

Reply Return to messages

Jump to this post's position in the thread ↴

More questions by zdimensia on 2014-06-20 17:30:00 UTC Reply

Is simply failing to capitalize a proper noun enough to create a mini?

Can I permanently claim something? by zdimensia on 2014-06-23 02:28:00 UTC Reply

Rather, I'd like to quarantine my SIAT stories. The short explanation is that its a series designed to contain my absolutely stupid ideas.

The long explanation includes how the canon characters know about the Author, and how they could easily end the stupidity (and their own continuance) by strangling her. An unpublished section includes how they are mentally influenced to be happier than they should be.

Here's what I'm going for by zdimensia on 2014-06-23 16:58:00 UTC Reply

Telling me to my face that they are made of pure "what the" is fine. I was aware of this when I started, (if the names are enough of a hint,) and even my current projects in that world are building off of ridiculous.

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/2465079/1/Self-Insert-Authoress-Tripe

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/6639591/1/Self-Indulgent-Authoress-Tripe

I may never write the actual mission, but build off of this rough outline.

Hillary is confronted for the My Little Pony crossover that I haven't finished yet. The characters know that if she dies, they lose the world that they're in and default to their last moments, so they argue to let her continue. In exchange for keeping my playground, my avatar fills out some paperwork about my Mary-Sues. (That fandom's definition, not so much the board's definition since I was trying to write anti-Sues.)

Samantha and Elizabeth are the two that I want to recruit. No one volunteered to spork the one Elizabeth came from, so I'm taking it. (Elizabeth won't become an agent, but get some job within the PPC. I basically want to throw those two together so they can have an argument.)

Two are completely flat plot-device contrivances from abandoned stories and can be killed before they cause trouble. One is in another story that I want to spork, possibly with help. There is one more, but the non-canonical son isn't really damaging the story or being a Stu.
Yeah, probably not. by Neshomeh on 2014-06-23 15:43:00 UTC Reply

For one thing, it's probably unnecessary. I don't think any of us would knowingly PPC something another Boarder wrote without specifically being asked to do it. Deliberately making enemies in the community would be dumb.

On the other hand, why are you posting these things in public if you think they're stupid enough to be sporkable? If you don't want negative feedback, the smart thing to do would be to leave them safely sequestered on your hard drive.

~Neshomeh
No. (nm) by Ekyl on 2014-06-23 15:29:00 UTC Reply
Do I understand this right? by Hieronymus Graubart on 2014-06-23 08:53:00 UTC Reply

You want to claim your old badfics, so that they are not PPC’ed by anybody else before you find the time to do it, and you don’t want your claim to be removed at the next clean-up action.

Maybe you can just add a note, saying "claimed by author, please don’t remove".

But be aware that somebody may take an extra-critical look on these fics when you don't respond to a question whether you still intend to do this. Claiming something permanently so that it never can be sporked doesn’t work. :evil grin:

HG

I also have questions by Dark Brother 16 on 2014-06-22 02:58:00 UTC Reply

On sort of the same subject, I have a question as well. In the first story I am planning a mission for, the author continues to write "her" or "she", even though the rest of the story is in first person. This happens a total of twenty- eight times, and sometimes in the same sentence as the first person material.

What usually happens with that? Does that create a mini or could it be a legitimate excuse to create a new character, or what?

Another question I had has to do with my first mission, but not with minis or anything. Say, theoretically, an Agent loses a piece of technology in a Chronicles of Narnia badfic and is unable to find it before someone else does and it vanishes. Would that story be quarantined or something?
Generic term for Tenth Walker? by zdimensia on 2014-06-21 22:41:00 UTC Reply

Well, there is a narrow formula that I'd like a specific term for. It's not necessarily a Sue, but they just end up in the middle of the story and don't really change it. (Usually it's a love interest.) There are often large copy/pastes from the script. It's like Pinky and The Brain and Larry.

Tag-along? by Techno-Dann on 2014-06-22 01:43:00 UTC Reply

I haven't seen a formal term for it other than Tenth Walker, but tag-along seems reasonable to me.

Yeah, all I got was a greyhound (nm) by zdimensia on 2014-06-22 01:57:00 UTC Reply

Homeless minis by zdimensia on 2014-06-21 15:56:00 UTC Reply

Where does an agent send minis that don't have an OFU and that they don't want to keep?

The mini from Yu Yu Hakisho seems to have been sent back to its agents by the CAF Adoption Agency.

I've got some lack-of-capitalization minis from a Sly Cooper fic that I don't know what to do with. I'm not even describing them properly since I only intend to do one mission in that continua.

I also have this fic taking place before Elizabeth becomes keeper of the mini-squids.

Well... by Desdendelle on 2014-06-21 18:15:00 UTC Reply

Sometimes other agents adopt them. Otherwise, it's assumed someone is running an adoption centre.

Mini Adoption Center by Antigone68104 on 2014-06-22 16:18:00 UTC Reply

I was going to get a start on the adoption center while I was on vacation this past week, but a research project took more time than expected. OTOH, getting to go over an authentic WWI uniform with a tape measure isn't something to pass up.

Since my current mission is on hold at the moment, I'll see if I can get at least a start on writing it between customers this coming week.

Sorry, got distracted by zdimensia on 2014-06-22 21:58:00 UTC Reply

I meant to include a compliment for taking the job that I don't understand and don't think I want.
Glad to see someone is on it. by zdimensia on 2014-06-22 21:53:00 UTC Reply

I do intend to have one of my "decided not to be an action agent, so needs a job" characters keep all of the unclaimed minis from Legacy of Kain, simply because an entire tank of talkative squids is funny in a Lovecraftian sense.

Do Floaters contact departments? by zdimensia on 2014-06-20 17:31:00 UTC Reply

Do floaters make copies of their mission reports for the departments that would have normally handled it if they had the staff?

Or is contacting other departments only for when something goes so wrong that they need a little help or just advice?

Answers by Phobos on 2014-06-20 18:35:00 UTC Reply

I don't see any reason they would make copies of their reports for other departments. It only matters that the mission got done.

If another department wanted to see the report, they could probably get a copy, but I think that would only be in extreme cases. Like, "I want a copy of that report because I heard they blew up an entire fleet of Daleks with a bottle-rocket, and I don't believe it."

Contacting other departments in an official capacity is usually just asking for back-up or advice. Floaters is probably less likely to ask another department for help than most, however. They should be able to get back-up from within Floaters, due to the diverse nature of the department.

-Phobos

Who sends the missions to the consoles? by zdimensia on 2014-06-20 17:30:00 UTC Reply

I read intelligence's page, indicating that fics are sorted and then the iffy ones are checked by spies before being forwarded to departments. Is there a department, person, or flower that decides whose console it goes to and when?

Or is it like the internet? Basically the mission report goes to all consoles, and the one tied to a suitable team "claims" it.

Is there a such thing as missions being shoved backward in the queue because the most suitable agent is wounded, so their partner gets a temp and missions that they could handle? Is there even a database that is aware of such things?

Is there someone who can be bribed, either to keep a particular intel-report in the shuffle for a bit longer, or to put something through as a mission before checking to see if it's really a badfic?

Answers...in a way by Phobos on 2014-06-20 18:12:00 UTC Reply

No one knows what happens between Intel and the consoles. And I kinda feel like that is part of the joke.

How does a mission show up exactly when someone lays down for a nap? Who knows? It's funny when it does, and that's the important thing.

Is there someone in Intel you can bribe to get something you want? Probably! Is it going to get you what you want? Probably not! And that's funny.

I guess what I'm saying is, don't worry so much about the "How" of of things in the PPC. Think more about the "Why". And here is a hint, the "Why" is usually "because it's funny".

-Phobos

Isn't that the Sorting Room? by Ekyl on 2014-06-21 01:23:00 UTC Reply

I at least seem to remember that's how it was described; intel sends fics that need killing to the agents from there. Also people should keep in mind constant repetition kills humour; don't be afraid to shake things up a little, Z.

In my spinoff... by SeaTurtle on 2014-06-21 03:39:00 UTC Reply

...there's a slot in the six-day schedule where one DoI colour team is assigned to... well, assigning badfic to agents. The concept is not mine: I noticed that Joe wrote about two DoI agents in their RC reviewing fics and assigning them to particular agent pairs. I built on that idea and introduced Spy ranks and colour teams from that.

I suppose I could work with that. by zdimensia on 2014-06-20 20:18:00 UTC Reply

Basically I've got a story in mind where the agent is doing something severely not-kosher and is going to get in huge trouble. It might be funny if the Powers that Be know about it and just sit back to watch him earn a horrible punishment.

I don't know about that... by Phobos on 2014-06-20 20:30:00 UTC Reply

"They know and just sit back and watch while he does something stupid, just to watch him fall on his face" is funny.

"They know and just sit back and watch while he does something he really shouldn't do, just so they can punish him horribly" is not funny. That's just mean-spirited. Neither the agent, nor the Powers That Be, look like the good guys in that scenario.

-Phobos

Good guys by zdimensia on 2014-06-20 20:49:00 UTC Reply

Well, I might not get around to writing down this story, but here's a brief description.

Hue's fiction of origin involves a Mary-Sue copycatting Rainbow Brite and somehow declaring Yoda as her Murky. Hue has been at the PPC for a while, and someone else finally cleaned up the mess from that mission, which included finding the Sue's talking horse, Chroma.

Chroma is traumatized from wandering Dagobah's swamp alone. Hue calls in a bunch of favors to find a My Little Pony goodfic. Then he'll rescue Chroma from FicPsych, erase her memories, and replace them with those of a background pony before leaving her in the goodfic.

It's a noble quest, but he still needs to be punished for breaking the rules.

So, I have a few questions by Phobos on 2014-06-20 21:42:00 UTC Reply

Why does Chroma need to be "rescued" from FicPsych?

Also, how is a realistically drawn horse going to blend into MLP?

Also, also, why is your agent going to take the horse from FicPsych, to then do something that he is untrained and unequipped for, but that FicPsych is trained and equipped to do?

-Phobos

Re: So, I have a few questions by zdimensia on 2014-06-20 22:13:00 UTC Reply

I was thinking that they were going to try rehabilitation and recruitment while leaving her memories intact, and Hue knew her well enough to see that the mind-wipe would eventually be the most humane outcome anyway. Basically it's a shortcut around making her suffer for months.

I was thinking that the disguise generator was powerful enough to turn her into a pony. If that's not the case, the only thing I can think of is to make her forget she can talk and send her to movie!Oz. Or if they can change her coat color to something natural, send her to Narnia. Oh, after thinking about it, I know a bunch of old cartoons that can tolerate an intelligent horse with magenta fur, though the turquoise mane might be a bit much, especially if that's not a broadcast-legal color.

One idea for the story is that a nurse owes him a big enough favor to be convinced to help him. Also, he's in Despatch, so he would have access to and training on the field version of the equipment.

I'll keep thinking about it. Mostly it's going to be a tragic love story combined with "you didn't stop when I told you about the dead kittens, so I'm showing you how god kills them."

As the person who invented half of FicPsych... by Neshomeh on 2014-06-21 04:05:00 UTC Reply

I take exception to the notion that they're so incompetent and/or cruel that they would let someone go on in agony for months if there were a simple solution and the patient were in a position to consent to it. They do have Bleepproducts on hand; and failing that, they do keep neuralyzers around; and if pressed, they could probably wrangle someone from the Potterverse to perform a memory charm; and if a real stretch were required, they have a psychic on staff who could theoretically apply a memory block if she were allowed to remove her Sue-tracking anklet long enough to avoid getting in trouble for using powers unnecessarily.

My point is, they are in the business of helping people—they don't need to be convinced to do it—and they have the resources of the entire multiverse. Also, I don't think this is stated anywhere obvious, but they're not fans of agents recruiting characters who can't hack it in the PPC and would've been better off neuralyzed and left to assimilate with their home canon. There's absolutely nothing I'm aware of to suggest that they wouldn't be all for doing what was best for the patient. {= /

~Neshomeh
Infrastructure Anti-Defamation League

In a pinch, couldn't a Flower do it? by Ekyl on 2014-06-22 04:43:00 UTC Reply

They all seem to be pretty strong pilots, and at least the Sunflower Offical's shown the ability to influence people's minds directly (way back at the end of Crashing Down, with Lady Zhevago). If other Flowers, like say the Kudzu, can do that it might make FicPsych's job a bit easier.

Seems like getting their leaves dirty by zdimensia on 2014-06-22 11:20:00 UTC Reply

I could imagine a flower stunning a half-crazed horse if it rushed into their office, but not volunteering to fix the mind.

Story's kinda evolving into a grimdark exploration about Hue's motivations for thinking this way, anyway.

Therein, I believe, lies the problem. by Ekyl on 2014-06-22 15:13:00 UTC Reply

Quite simply you're trying to shoehorn "grimdark" where it has no business being. This isn't that kind of setting, and (most of; let's allow for people who came from places like 1984 or 40K) the people who live there, Flowers or otherwise, aren't that kind of people. Is it forbidden to have stories that're a little more serious? Not at all, but there's "let's take stuff a little more seriously" and then there's "everything is unrelenting darkness and pain and angst for ever, no matter how much I have to twist the nature of the setting and the characters within." We really don't want that second one, and besides, not all Flowers are alike and I suspect they'd take exception to your implication otherwise. :P

Re: Therein, I believe, lies the problem. by zdimensia on 2014-06-22 16:45:00 UTC Reply

The grimdark wasn't in reference to the Flowers.

When I say grimdark, it's probably more in contrast to Hue's overly-saccharine personality. I've seen stories where the agents are usually in the tone I'm thinking about.

You've missed my point. by Ekyl on 2014-06-22 16:56:00 UTC Reply

"Grimdark" really doesn't have a place in the PPC. Either you're using an incorrect term or should probably be reconsidering how your story is working.

Re: You've missed my point. by zdimensia on 2014-06-22 18:17:00 UTC Reply

https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=194UoSF08Uo29q1cYhijwzhWpukedSAYn90ZApxYiZUQ

http://starshadowhall.tripod.com/ppc/ficpsych/casefile02.html#two And some other stories involving Derik.

Your definitions seem to be off. by Phobos on 2014-06-23 16:00:00 UTC Reply

What you've given us are not examples of Grimdark. They are examples of Drama.

Are these examples darker and less funny that what we usually do in the PPC? Absolutely. But there are moments of lightness in the first example, between Cindy and Ilraen. There are moments of triumph and overcoming impossible odds in Gestalt Therapy.

Even my own Catastrophe Theory stories, which are probably better examples than either of the above, have some humor and lightness in them.

That sort of thing doesn't happen in Grimdark stories. Everything is dark and tortured. There is no lightness. There is no triumph. And that is the point of the style.

-Phobos

Yeah, more serious/dramatic is okay, grimdark isn't. by Ekyl on 2014-06-23 23:30:00 UTC Reply

Nowhere is it forbidden to have stories that're a bit more serious (except Sedri's words on the wiki's mission guide, I suppose...), and of course the dynamic you want where a lighter character is paired with a darker, more grim one is fine, but the sticking point is how you're going about establishing that. Aside from the fact you've got drama and grimdark confused as Phobos just pointed out, you seem to be twisting or misconstruing the methods and purpose of the involved departments just for the sake of enabling melodrama; it might be better to take a couple steps back and reevaluate what you plan to do here.

Besides, I don't think a cartoon horse is really the best fit for this kind of story.

Psychics, not pilots. WTF? (nm) by Ekyl on 2014-06-22 04:43:00 UTC Reply

Acting out of compassion by zdimensia on 2014-06-21 11:40:00 UTC Reply

I'm viewing this as the difference between war veterans and the people they come home to. Only veterans can truly appreciate what it was like. Other people can only acknowledge that shell-shock is a real thing.

They're not being incompetent or cruel. It's like trying to help a suicidal person. You can spend years trying to help them out of that dark place, but every once in a while, all it does is lead to living longer in hopelessness. Without knowing ahead of time that they'll never be right enough to live, the compassion of helping them can be viewed in hindsight as unkind.

I could turn the story into an argument between Hue and the Psych team. Completely destroying Chroma's memories and turning her into a new person would be like killing her. Compassion on their side would be trying to save who she is first. Compassion from Hue's side is accepting the inevitable quickly.

I could end with Hue being yelled at for doing the wrong thing. I don't get enough opportunities to use the word reprehensible.

Er. Er? by Huinesoron on 2014-06-21 17:03:00 UTC Reply

Er... your argument here seems to come out as 'suicidal tendencies should sometimes be treated with euthanasia', which... that can't actually be what you're suggesting. So what am I misreading?

hS

Re: Er. Er? by zdimensia on 2014-06-21 17:19:00 UTC Reply

Not without flawless ability to know who's never going to reach that light at the end of the tunnel. Basically you gotta assume every one of them will pull through.

As for actual euthanasia, ending a person who is in physical pain, denying that is the unkindness.

That's Medical's purview, and I'm sure they'd object. (nm) by Ekyl on 2014-06-22 05:34:00 UTC Reply

Okay, I see where you're coming from. by Neshomeh on 2014-06-21 15:41:00 UTC Reply

That does make sense.

However, I don't think it's wise to assume that no one in FicPsych is a veteran, to continue your metaphor. People come to the PPC from all walks of life, fictional and non-fictional. I don't know everything about the background of all the nurses, and the one I know best, Jennifer Robinson, wound up in the PPC partially due to suffering something of a cosmic identity crisis. If she can't relate to wandering lost and alone in a strange country, no one can. (That said, she would also hold out against more aggressive measures as long as possible, but she doesn't have anything like ultimate authority in the department. There are at least five people ahead of her in seniority.)

And even if none of them count as veterans in this case, they do have extensive experience in working with emotional trauma of all sorts, and being in the PPC, which routinely neuralyzes random bit characters without so much as asking their permission first, they ought to be very comfortable with the idea that people don't have any kind of right or requirement to hang onto badfic-induced memories, especially if they're competent to express that they don't bloody well want them. Perhaps putting the problem in terms of gender reassignment would be more apt: it's a person's prerogative to say "even though I have X body part, that's not me, I don't want it, and I should be able to change it if I choose."

Though, you know how Bleeprin works, right? It selectively represses bad memories, leaving the person's personality entirely intact. That's why it's so popular. Granted, I don't think anyone's ever tried using it on a cartoon horse before, but that's something to keep in mind before you decide a total mindwipe is necessary.

Also, are you aware of the herd of horses, led by Alice the meara, that lives in the courtyard? Integrating her with a supportive surrogate family there would certainly be on FicPsych's radar.

~Neshomeh