Subject: It's still a fallacy even if it's rhetorical.
Author:
Posted on: 2014-05-15 10:03:00 UTC
And more generally, objecting to the posts of people who're defending you is...
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... is about par for the course on the Board, actually. We all spend our time nitpicking against our own best interests. Heaven knows that includes me often enough.
hS
So, I have been reading Fallout: Equestria recently, and it made me wonder: could it be a full continuum? It has fanfiction of it, fan music, fan art, tabletop games, even a fan game in the style of Fallout 3 and New Vegas (which looks really cool, check it out here) anoung other fan works. It has it's very own fandom-within-a-fandom, and a very clear canon, with set rules and history. Sounds to me like it could be a continuum, but is it? Would the PPC see it as worthy of protection?
This is mostly asking if it is possable for recursive fanfiction to be sporked, but also askes for an in-universe stance on fanfic. If fanfiction can, indeed, become it's own world, at what point does it separate itself from it's source world/worlds? What are the canon sources? Why does the PPC protect it? Questions like that.
How does the PPC work? We know that each fanfic doesn't - can't - actually alter the original canon, since multiple missions take place simultaneously. However, we also know that they can affect the canon in some way: LotR canon has been weakened by the onslaught of badfic. We know that plotholes destabilise the world around them; if each fanfic is a pocket universe version of the canon, then destabilising the pocket verse will feed back into the original. The more badfics, the more unstable the canon.
Equally, since we're not just trying to wipe out fanfic entirely, goodfic must have a stabilising effect. In some cases, it can even act to partially fill in plotholes in the canon, thus improving the stability above the baseline. So (assuming F:E to be goodfic), F:E itself should be encouraged - ie, left alone.
But what about spinoffs? If F:E is a pocket universe off MLP, then F:E fanfic must be pocket universes off F:E itself. And that means they must have the same stabilising/destabilising effect on it. And that means that, while they are lower priority (because further separated from the 'real' world - remember, the Flowers are able to travel directly to Word Worlds; they have a genuine existence), they can still be PPC'd as F:E fanfic.
As to when it 'separates' itself from its source world - it doesn't. F:E is still MLP fanfic. In-universe, we'd protect it because destabilising it would destabilise MLP. But any fanfic-of-a-fanfic can be PPC'd based on its differences from the original. If you desperately wanted to PPC Diary of a Pancake Fangirl, you'd have to do so as a fanfic of Pancakes! - if something is 'canon' to Pancakes! or F:E, it must be treated as canon for spinoffs.
It's sort of the same as the PPC. We don't concrit new missions by saying 'well, there's no such thing as portals between dimensions, and that navigation around 'headquarters' is ridiculous'; we concrit it based on the PPC 'canon'. Of course, I don't think that argument would get much traction in-universe - they know they're real, after all. ;)
hS
... that assumes the situation is F:E has fanfic in the same way as MLP does. If, instead, what exists is a shared universe like the PPC - where characters in one F:E fanfic will be continued in others - then you run into a problem: you could spork something that was regarded as 'canon'.
What if you kill a Mary-Sue, but the community likes her and she keeps showing up in other stories? Do you kill her every time? Do you ignore her? It might be funny for one, but what if there are ten such characters?
In that case, the only way to handle it would be to either a) treat F:E in its entirety as 'canon', and only spork things that have been officially declared not to be part of the shared universe, or b) treat the entire shared universe as one huge fanfic, and when it gets corrupted enough as a whole to be 'badfic', spork the whole lot of it at once. That might be quite tricky to do. ;)
hS
Really, really good fic. One of my absolute favorites, and seen as a gold star amongst the fandom. There is a reason people have paid good money for a physical printing of the fic. Why on earth would we kill it?
While it can technically be argued if it is good or not, it does not fall under the PPC's definition of badfic at all. We look for bottom of the barrel, worst of the worst, absolute garbage fics that nobody (besides the author) could question as goodfic or not. F:E is not one of those fics. Even if you do not like it, even if you think it takes MLP's themes and buries them under gore and radiation, or is a senseless smashing of the Fallout franchise into a world where it does not belong, it cannot be argued to be badfic. Not under the PPC definition at least.
Besides, if it can get this good of a review from an English teacher, and one of the fandom's best critics, I'd say that it's pretty darn good fic.
I am beginning to dislike stringent definitions. Fallout: Equestria sounds like it would be badfic if it weren't such a popular divergence from the canon.
I reference LoTR fic "Don't Panic" as not a goodfic, but as a beloved deconstruction of badfic. Here is another candidate if PPC starts a deliberate designation. https://www.fanfiction.net/s/10290182/1/Logistical-Problems
How are you claiming "Don't Panic" as not goodfic? It's canon-friendly and well-written (which is the PPC's standard for badfic/not-badfic), and beyond that, it explores characters we never see much of - Halbarad - and gives an interesting new viewpoint on the canon. On top of that, I personally find it really entertaining to read, and very moving in parts.
It's not really a deconstruction beyond its original premise. If it were, Penny would spend a lot more time doing Suvian things-but-differently, rather than... well, being a realistic girl who somehow ended up in Middle-earth.
hS
...you'd go for "The Awkward Adventures of Meghan Whimblesby" (might've spelt her name wrong) because that one definitely takes Sue tropes and adds a dash of reality to them.
Though the Legomance is well developed (at least to me).
I am using a no regards for quality definition of Sue, which just looks at things like breaking internal fourth wall.
Urban Nosgothic by VladimirsAngel since I can't paste from the tablet.
It is friendly to outsiders and probably could be whitewashed for publishing without losing too much.
... that that is emphatically not the PPC's definition of the term 'Mary Sue'. Our use of the word is strictly as a pejorative: as stated here, 'Mary Sues achieve their goals in the story with little to no effort. This is typically because the Mary Sue's story arc places no meaningful obstacles in her path, paving the way for her to triumph without suffering serious consequences or evolving along the way. Thus, Sues are shallow, static characters.'
Obviously you can use the term however you like; just be aware that in a PPC context, you're going to get strange looks unless you constantly provide your own definition.
hS
Don't Panic is a pleasure to read, the Insert doesn't sparkle, (though she seems to use the same definition of Sue that I tend to have, which is "from beyond the forth wall" without examining for quality,) and the wish-fufillment takes the readers along for the ride.
I do admit that I haven't gotten past the sewing, which is an idyllic part.
But it does have elements that tend to derail stories if used by less-skilled people. And going on a tour of Bree to Rivendale before settling down among the elves is a Suvian plot.
Unless goodfic means "not on the kill list" I'm going to call it "A marvelous trapped in TV land story."
I dunno, she doesn't have much of a Suvian storyline since she... stays in Rivendell? And honestly doesn't have that much contact with the major players, excluding the bits where she gets all awkward around Boromir because she knows he's going to die.
Goodfic to us means more than just "not on the kill list". The kill list is comprised of the worst of the worst that we can find. We leave the mediocre stuff alone. Goodfic is stuff that we recommend to other people, stories that we wish were the face of fanfiction moreso than My Immortal or that Goku/Anne Frank story.
How are you distinguishing between 'good[ piece of fan]fic[tion]' and 'marvellous... story'? Because, uh, I don't see the difference, unless you're trying to turn 'goodfic' into a specific term, while I always saw it as a general one.
hS
Where do you put the not fantastic, but too decent to declare a badfic?
But my question was more about the fact that you called 'Don't Panic' "marvellous" - which is generally somewhere above 'decent', and on the same sort of level as 'fantastic'. Or am I misunderstanding?
hS
This LotR x Forgotten Realms fic is... meh. It's a weird sort of crossover and the protag shows some Sueish traits, but the mechanics are OK and the protag isn't a Sue. The story is meh, too - not good, but not bad, either.
I mean, IC the PPC might kill 'em, but a merely mediocre fic like that isn't something a lot of people would think is worth writing a mission for. Most of us pick our missions not based on some subjective measure of quality, but on if we can make a good story about the mission.
Something isn't badfic just because you don't like it.
Cupcakes had a hard to comprehend kink being common, Fluttershy being disturbingly close except for everything that couldn't be in a Y rated show, and roofies.
Whether Fluttershy and Rarity are judged replacement or possession is about the only thing that I find is a valid target. Yes I am a hypocrite in wanting it examined anyway.
No I do not have a infant-play kick, I was quite scarred by an explanation of why you should own a washer instead of using the laundromat.
Fluttershy and Rarity weren't even in the infamously bad Cupcakes, and there wasn't really anything that could be described as a kink, let alone portraying one as common. And what was that about having mental scars after a description of how using a washing machine is preferable? I don't think I'm entirely sure what that means even in context.
The Legendary Badfic Cupcakes involved Pinkie Pie, or more accurately a murderous character replacement that the bronies have since dubbed "Pinkamena", knocking out Rainbow Dash with a sedative pastry, dragging her into a dungeon, and putting the pegasus through a drawn-out torture scene that I don't remember most of the details of. Her wings were sawed off at one point, and her meat was collected to be baked into cupcakes that were fed to Twilight in one of the fic's dozen or so alternate endings, but that's all I remember. It's probably all for the best that I don't recall much, though. It's probably been willingly blocked from my memory.
I mixed up cupcakes with mini pancakes and Patti cakes. The search on YouTube also gets confused about the difference.
I'll have to actually read the torture fic.
I know where they got the name from, but not why they chose it. The "Pinkie" in "Pinkie Pie" is short for "Pinkamena Diane", which was the first part of Pinkie's name during her youth when she worked on a rock cultivation farm. After she moved out, canon-Pinkie started using the shorter form, presumably because it was peppier and saying her full name would waste time that could be otherwise spent partying.
I'm not sure why the early Cupcakes readership equated "cannibalism and torture" with "going by a longer, but not yet fully extended, version of one's name". Maybe because when she decided to shorten her name, canon-Pinkie was simultaneously starting what would become her life's work of helping others to be cheerful, and the longer name shows that Cupcakes-Pinkie is not wanting people to be happy, because she wants to eat them? That's ended with a question mark because it's more of a wild guess than a good hypothesis.
The full name is fannon-code for the limp-haired version that appeared when she had cutie-mark failure. (BSOD)
At least that's the impression I'm getting.
Yes, Pinkamena refers to straight-maned crazy!Pinkie we see in Party of One, who is in turn associated with Cupcakes!Pinkie. Now, why is Pinkamena connected to Party of One Pinkie? Simple. Pinkamena Diane Pie, the filly, is depressed and has a straight mane. Crazy!Pinkie is depressed and has a straight mane. Ergo, straight maned Pinkie = Pinkamena. Simple.
You know exactly what argument I'm making and you're deliberately misinterpreting it. On the off-chance that you're genuinely as thick as you're presently pretending to be, I shall spell out my argument:-
There are criteria for something to meet before it's classified as badfic within the PPC. Let's check the badfic page and go through them with Fallout: Equestria in mind.
1) spelin and gramer
There are very few technical flaws in the brick that is F:E. Indeed, there are fewer flaws than there are in some PPC missions, and the original story's a hell of a lot longer than the average mission. I think it's in the clear on this one, Iunno, you be the judge.
2) OOC Canon Characters
This one's debatable, but I'd argue that the Mane 6, when they do show up, are about as accurate as they can be - especially given the circumstances Equestria's found itself it. I don't believe that characters can be considered OOC if they're responding to a chain of events in a way that would be in character for them that leads to disaster. Then again, I'm rather lenient on that score.
3) Poor plot
Insert obvious joke here. But no, the plot in F:E is perfectly acceptable - hell, it's basically a retelling of the Fallout 3 storyline in Equestria, and while that may not be your cup of tea, that doesn't make it bad. Fallout 3's a narratively driven game with a story that's won praise from a plethora of critics. While I freely admit that I'm not fond of straight retellings, I reckon if you're going to rip something off, it might as well be something that's, y'know... good.
4) Sues and Stus
I don't consider Littlehoof to be Sueish - it may seem that way at first, but it isn't up to her to save the day by herself, and she doesn't do that. She's the Vault Dweller in pony form, so yeah, the narrative does centre on her, but you could just as easily criticise a PPC fic for centering on the agents and the criticism would be equally spurious. If you dissgree, that's fine. Back it up.
5) Horrible Writing Overall
No. I'm sorry, but just... no. This is the story from Fallout 3 reworked to fit Equestria, and yeah, there's going to be some horrible things that show up - but that's because it's the story from Fallout. I don't know if you've ever played it, but Fallout's vision of the United States is not a playground full of kittens and sunflowers. It is a post-apocalyptic hellscape and it's your job to try and fix it. F:E just uses the Elements of Harmony instead.
tl;dr: You cannot say something is badfic just 'cause. We're the PPC. We've got to have some friggin' standards about this, otherwise we turn into what badfic writers say we are: arbitrary snobs in dire need of a visit from this august body.
It's is not just a re-telling of Fallout 3. It also takes elements from Fallout 1 and 2. The Goddess is based off of The Master, the main enemy from Fallout. I know there were some things from Fallout 2 in there, but heck if I can remember. I have never played any of the Fallout games, see, so it's difficult to tell what comes from where. Anyway, from what I have heard, it's a blend of all of the Fallout games, taking primary inspiration from Fallout 3
Oh, and while I'm nitpicking. It's Littlepip. Or LittlePip. Not Littlehoof.
However, as I said, I completely agree with your points. Especially since they got to the point much sooner then my monster of a rant did.
wobblestheclown, flames - even framed as 'on the off-chance that you're genuinely as thick as you're presently pretending to be' - are not acceptable in the PPC Community. Don't do that. There's no reason not to have a civil conversation even with people you disagree with - even if they engage in logical fallacies.
hS
Sorry, Ekyl. I'm still too used to arguments in other corners of the Internet, in which reasoned discussion is all but impossible. I shouldn't have snapped at you.
I still totally disagree with your assessment of Fallout: Equestria, mind, but there's no reason to be a dick about it.
There's nothing wrong with disagreement - Article 5 points out that all opinions (with caveats) are equally welcome her. Disagreement is encouraged! But reasoned discussion even more so.
So go for it, disagree the heck out of Ekyl. I'm certainly not going to stop you. ;) But do it nicely.
hS
('Disagree the heck out of'? Stars, my use of the language gets more esoteric every day...)
I'm not sure who the 'her' is that all opinions are supposed to welcome, but she's clearly not that fond of proper sentence structure. Sigh.
hS
If so, does she have any of those delicious fruit pie thingies? =]
And more generally, objecting to the posts of people who're defending you is...
...
... is about par for the course on the Board, actually. We all spend our time nitpicking against our own best interests. Heaven knows that includes me often enough.
hS
Sorry, I think the blatant flames from Wobbles made me a bit defensive but a) thanks for the defence and b) it felt more like a passive-aggressive snipe than it probably was. "Used one fallacy" isn't the same as "is a moron". Apologies again.
Because, seriously, it's Clippy.
Anyway, what I was getting at there is that a chunk of Jumper's argument is "this fic is popular, so it can't be bad!" I then responded rhetorically to Wobbles' "just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's bad" by highlighting a Legendary Badfic for the purposes of my point - I might dislike "Cupcakes", say, but I don't think many are going to argue it somehow isn't bad, and to point out there are reasons to deem something "bad" other than personal distaste.
(I suppose you could step past that and make an argument that all criticism is expression of personal distaste and justification for that distaste, but a lot of that depends on if you believe in the existence of objective good and objective bad in re: creative work. But rest assured this isn't mudslinging like seems to be implied - I can back this up and I'm writing a reply to Jumper for that purpose, it's taking time because it's a post I want to research a bit and put some thought into.)
I've never read Fallout: Equestria, so I can't weigh in on that regard, but I've never liked the idea that something is undeniably good solely because it's got a following. It's the "300,000 people can't be wrong" fallacy all over again.
I'll level with you, that thing is horrible by any measure I've looked at it with, and just as emblematic of the worst parts of the fandom as Cupcakes. On top of the technical qualities it shows nothing but contempt for its source canon. And if we truly went off the model you described the PPC with, we'd only ever kill Legendary Badfics.
But arguments like this are why I only put it as a hypothetical. Fics like that are highly controversial subjects and I'd imagine even in-universe you'd see people in HQ arguing about if it's a badfic or not.
I said that you could think that it is nothing but ponies killing each other in brutal, horrifying ways. I never once said that I thought that opinion was right. However, since that is a common complaint against the story, I decided that the opinion should be voiced. Let me, then, provide my own explanation as to why F:E is, in my opinion, one of the best pieces of fan fiction ever written.
When many people look at the premise, and indeed, the first couple of chapters, it is easy to assume this story is nothing but gore and violence thrown into the magical land of Equestria, for no reason then to see a happy world turned into a horrific wasteland. However, if you read further then Ponyville, and begin to see the history of the Wasteland, you begin to see the true point to this story. This is a story about innocence lost, about good intentions turned wrong, and how it can be restored. It is a story about heroism, virtues, and, yes, friendship.
This story explores friendship and its power in a way that is even more powerful then the show. We see our band of heroes go through the most horrifying parts of a post-apocalyptic world, and face true changes to their health, sanity, and friendship. The bonds that they build are often the only things that pull them through this horror, not because of the additional firepower that they bring, but the comport and help that they can give. They bring each other out of depressions, they call each other out on their faults to make them better people, they go to any length necessary to make sure everybody is cared for. For a fanfiction based on a show which praises and studies friendship, I think it honors that aspect of the show and explores it in a way that only hardship can do.
It is a story about virtues. What makes a pony and what values they represent is a massive part of the story, and is explored in great detail. It looks at good, honest virtues, and what can happen when they are "corrupted," turned dark and vile, yet still recognizable. Corrupted honesty, who tells the absolute, whole truth, even when it is unnecessarily painful. Even using truth to purposefully harm and hurt those around them. Corrupted generosity, who will work and toil to make the best possible future for those after them. Even if it means the loss of freedom and lives of others for now. But it also looks at the positives of virtues. Honesty that benefits, a dedication to being the core truth to the world, for the benefit of all. Sacrifice, who will put themselves in harms way to save another. These virtues are what keeps you sane. They are what gives you purpose. These are also praised in the show, exemplified through the Elements of Harmony. This, to, is in the spirit of MLP.
The respect this author has for the show is tremendous. She looks at the characters of the show, and gets to the heart of who they are. Then, puts them through the worst of situations possible: War. She looks at what war would do to these characters, and while remaining true to who they were, see what they would do to try and end it. These characters are completely in character, even when it seems like they are not. You will eventually see what their intentions were, how they came to reach those conclusions, and it makes horrifying sense. The phrase, "The portal to Hell is opened through the best of intentions," is one that is repeated again and again. This phrase summarizes the past Equestria in a better way than anything else I could possibly say.
This story is a story of hope. Of light in the dark. Yes, Equestria is a radioactive wasteland, with ponies murdering and sometimes even cannibalizing each other to survive. But this is not shown as a good thing. And there is hope. Littlepip, the main character, finds ways to make this war-torn land a better place. She builds communities, removes raider encampments, and protects the innocent. Most importantly, she finds ways to bring back the old Equestria, in a way. This is not just a horror story. It is a story of hope.
Now, onto technical aspects. The first 1/3 of the story has the occasional dropped word, or incorrect punctuation, but this is rare, and not all too serious. Later on, the writing quality vastly improves, and becomes near flawless. Kkat's use of onomatopoeia is clever, and often a treat on it's own. The use of first person first the story so well, much better then third person would. We see the world through Littlepip's eyes, as she comes out blinking from the vault stable, lost and confused. This is, on the whole, good writing, technically speaking.
The characters are some of the most engaging, interesting characters I have read in any medium. I am not saying they are the absolute best, but you become invested in them. When they are hurt, you feel for them. When they joke and laugh at eachother, you laugh with them. Many of them become your friends. The side characters are interesting to learn about, and plenty of thought has gone into them as well. The villains, while a little clichéd, are still interesting and engaging themselves. They have reasons for what they are doing, and not just "for the evuls." You love to hate them, and in some cases, even miss them when they do eventually get dealt with.
Firther, this story has one of the most realistic depictions of addiction I have ever seen. Littlepip becomes addicted to these drugs called Party-Time Mint-Als. They make her think clarer, faster, and even speak better. basically, she's smarter while on them. However, they have negative side effects, degrading her mind slowly to the point where she needs them to think properly at all. because we are in Littlepip's mind while she is addicted to this stuff, we see what it does to her. How she craves the next Mint-Al, how she justifies it's constant use, and the effect it has on her friends. Even when she does get help, and the physical addiction is handled, the mental addiction never leaves her. It is eerily accurate, and worth reading a good deal of the story for that alone.
I have even more I could day about this story, but I think I have gone on for long enough. Let me end by saying this: this is a good story. It is well written, has fantastic characters, and despite how it seems, it honors both source materials. You do not need to have any knowledge of Fallout to read this, though you do have to know MLP up to around mid-season 2. Is it for everybody? Lord no. Is it flawless? Absolutely not. But this is, and I am being completely honest when I say this, a story I would pay money for. I am going to play the game when it comes out, I am going to read more side stories, and I am absolutely going to read it again and again. If you do not like it, fine, good for you. That does not make it badfic.
One final thing: You mentioned that "Just because an English teacher likes it, does not make it good." You are correct, and I am sorry if it came off that way. However, let me ask you this: did you read the review? I mentioned that he is an English teacher to lend to his credibility, but if that is not helpful, then let me elaborate on why I shared that review. Chris is one of the best reviewers I have seen in the fandom. He is clear and concise, remaining professional the entire way. He explains what he likes and what he does not like in a story in a professional manner, where you can see exactly why he thinks the way he does. He is well read, and knows what works and does not work for him. That is why I shared the review.
I hope this clarifies my stance a little more. I apologize if I rambled, which I am certain that I did, but I cannot sing the praises of this story enough. If you can stomach the violence, gore, and swearing, it is honestly one of my favorite stories, period.
F:E has one and only one canon story: the first. The author, kkat, loves all of the spinoffs of F:E that others write, but has stated many times that only the first is canon. Well, the first, and a single lemon chapter that sombody wrote that she declaired canon, but there is nothing special in that. Heck, even things that kkat herself wrote for a tabletop are explicitly not canon. She said that if the community wants to use them, fine, but they are not official.
So, now I may have to consider what, exactly, happens when a spinoff destabilises. I'll have to think a bit more about this.
There might be a precedent for calling Fallout:Equestria a non-malignant world. It would certainly be a heat-sink for evil-infused sugar-bowls.
I imagine it wouldn't fall under the rules of the original canon. Look for the discussion on Star Wars, I think it mentions book!universe versus movie!universe.
All fanfics are, if you want to get technical, AUs of the original continuum (or continua if it's a crossover), with varying levels of divergence from the original; some are canon-friendly enough that their separate continuum could be assumed to merge harmlessly with the original, others have a stable coexistence, and the continua created by the badfic the PPC kills warp and feed off the original continuum, eventually trying to replace it.
It's... debatable which of those latter two (harmless coexistence or malignant warping) FE falls into, and because of (no offence) the fandom's tendency to shoehorn ponies into everything the main continuum has a tonne of crossover subcontinua at any given point, but when you have a fanfic-generated continuum that itself gets fanfic, yeah, things get complicated. My stance is that, because it's still derived off two canon sources, it doesn't become a full continuum of its own, but it is a very large sub-continuum of its source materials; what you have is a fanfic world that has stabilised enough to become a whole setting of its own, but the PPC would be under no obligation to defend it as an "actual" canon because it's inherently tied to Fallout and MLP. Under this view, yes, something like Fallout Equestria could be sporked, and the way I view it is killing the main fic would, in-universe, destroy all the ficworlds that spun off from it; imagine walking into a house and suddenly blowing up all the support beams.