Different question, different canon

Subject: Different question, different canon
Author: Storme Hawk
Posted on: 2014-05-08 19:30:00 UTC

Or rather, slight thread hijack because creating another thread would be pointless and a waste of space.

I'm currently trying to write a bit of fanfiction, based in the Dresden Files universe, far away from Chicago and Harry Dresden, and indeed most characters we know, although references will be made, (for any of you wondering where in the series it takes place it's somewhere between Dead Beat and Turn Coat).

Anyway, the question I'm trying to ask, is does anyone have any idea roughly how old an apprentice has to be before they are allowed into the White Council as a wizard? From what I can find I think it's about the early-mid twenties, but seeing as there is a lack of information on that sort of thing (that I can find at least) I thought it best to ask here and see what other people could find/think/know.

Storme Hawk

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A question regarding canon by Desdendelle on 2014-05-08 18:23:00 UTC Reply

Thought most things Star Wars were canon? Think again.
Which begs the question: how is the PPC affected?

Well, that's annoying. by Huinesoron on 2014-05-09 09:32:00 UTC Reply

And, in my case, rather counterproductive: unless the new films are really good, I don't think I'll be buying any of the 'new canon' novels. Since I own a fairly high percentage of the, uh, 'legends' novels, that's a big shift. Oh well, maybe they'll keep publishing new 'legends' alongside it.

As far as the PPC goes... well, we have six Star Wars missions listed, and, er, none of them are set in the EU. In fact, they're all Prequel Trilogy-inspired. So I don't think our written agents will be running into problems. ;)

But what do we call the two canons? 'Bookverse' and 'Movieverse' worked for LotR, but won't here - the EU is canon with the first six films, and the new films will produce books of their own. And we can hardly call one 'canon' - that's far too non-specific. It seems clear we're going to have to peg the label 'Legends[verse]' on the EU - how about 'Disneyverse' for the new canon? Or simply 'Newverse'?

hS

Terminology by Antigone68104 on 2014-05-09 14:39:00 UTC Reply

I'd suggest "Original" and "Reboot", but that may be too Star Trek-oriented.

"Lucas" and "Disney"?

RE: Star Wars by Seafarer on 2014-05-08 21:27:00 UTC Reply

This has already been pretty well addressed, but I will add that in the Original Series, Jay and Acacia frequently distinguish between 'bookverse' and 'movieverse', implying that either is acceptable to the PPC. Besides, all the EU stuff is published and therefore part of *a* canon, if not necessarily the *main* canon. So it actually doesn't affect anything (though you may be able to charge for mixing canons).

D'oh! by Miah on 2014-05-09 01:13:00 UTC Reply

I even work with canons where that is a major, major issue, and it never crossed my mind this morning!

I remember also (now that I am thinking) that there is discussion of which one is considered primary? There was some video game that was used as an example for this. Maybe Resident Evil or Castlevania. Tolkien works well though for the discussion. The written materials can always influence what we know about the movies. If there are details not otherwise specified in the movies, it defaults to what is written. However, in a case where the movie adds ~~random crap~~ information to canon that information can only apply to the movie!verse. It doesn't reverse influence.

I'd see the Star Wars EU the same way, only the movies are first and the primary canon. The movies can influence and over write the EU, but the EU can't go over the movies.

So, totally a long-winded way of saying, I totally agree with you. ;)

Exposition by Seafarer on 2014-05-09 06:01:00 UTC Reply

As far as the PPC is concerned, once something is published/released/whatever, it's a canon. It doesn't matter if it's overridden by later canon, it's still a published work that needs protecting (and thus a Word World which can affect PPC history - so the Mysterious Somebody doesn't retroactively cease to exist). Though combining elements of two contradictory works could be a charge, I guess (maybe even a job for Implausible Crossovers, come to think of it).
As far as Star Wars goes (this isn't just aimed at you, Miah), there have always been "levels" of canonicity in that franchise. The new films shouldn't necessitate a change in PPC procedure.
Bleh. That ended up sounding condescending, but I can't think of any other way to put it. :-/
And, Miah: I think it would reverse influence unless directly contradicted by the original material. Alternatively, there's no cross-influence and the different media constitute separate Word Worlds. Though calling a film a "Word World" is rather counterintuitive. (And the spell-check doesn't recognise 'canonicity' or 'counterintuitive'. Or 'recognise', apparently.)
Well... by Desdendelle on 2014-05-09 01:18:00 UTC Reply

Basically, the movies, the Clone Wars CGI series, Rebels and the new book that's soon to come out are canon. Everything else is 'legends'. Wook seems to treat this as 'legends and canon are two different things', which, BTW, a few ~~Lucasfilm~~Disney employees also mentioned in their Twitters.

Different question, different canon by Storme Hawk on 2014-05-08 19:30:00 UTC Reply

Or rather, slight thread hijack because creating another thread would be pointless and a waste of space.

I'm currently trying to write a bit of fanfiction, based in the Dresden Files universe, far away from Chicago and Harry Dresden, and indeed most characters we know, although references will be made, (for any of you wondering where in the series it takes place it's somewhere between Dead Beat and Turn Coat).

Anyway, the question I'm trying to ask, is does anyone have any idea roughly how old an apprentice has to be before they are allowed into the White Council as a wizard? From what I can find I think it's about the early-mid twenties, but seeing as there is a lack of information on that sort of thing (that I can find at least) I thought it best to ask here and see what other people could find/think/know.

Storme Hawk

I'm certainly no authority... by Ailavyn Siniyash on 2014-05-09 04:35:00 UTC Reply

...but that seems about right, going by evidence in-canon.

Let's list the facts we have:

-Harry joined the Council at sixteen, but he was special circumstances. And he thought he'd be training with DuMorne for tenish years, IIRC.

-Molly... well, Ghost Story happened, and then Cold Days, so I don't think she ever became a Council wizard, though she's certainly not Harry's apprentice anymore.

-Carlos was an apprentice in Summer Knight and Regional Commander of the Wardens in Dead Beat, and he was, I think, twenty-five-ish then, so that adds evidence.

I can't think of anyone else, but I don't have any of the books, so I could very well be blanking. I'll just add that, given when you've set it, the Council is at full-out war against the Red Court, so they'll probably be promoting people as quick as they can, especially if they have an aptitude for evocation or other Warden-y things or healing, probably. (Example: Camp Kaboom.)

I hope I could help; I was just going off my memory, here.

-Aila

PS: Speaking of, do you know the Night Vale canon? I have a Dresden Files/Night Vale crossover that really needs a beta, but knowledge of both canons, up to Lazy Day at least for Night Vale, is a necessity.

Thanks by Storme Hawk on 2014-05-09 08:55:00 UTC Reply

The only two books of the series are Summer Knight and Cold Days, so I wasn't aware of Carlos appearing in the former as an apprentice.
So thanks, I'll work with that and see where it leads (especially seeing as I'm only do a oneshot with them for now, before using the basis and a lot longer plot for NaNoWriMo when it comes around.

Storme Hawk

P.S. No I don't I'm afraid. I've been interested in it just haven't had the time to start listening.

Happy to help! by Ailavyn Siniyash on 2014-05-09 09:05:00 UTC Reply

He wasn't named in Summer Knight, but if you read the scene with the Council, he's the brown-robed apprentice hiding a grin when Harry starts mouthing off at said body of wizards. I think he developed a minor case of hero-worship after that.

(And you have got to read those two. They have, in my opinion, some of the best plots in the series (though when the Faerie Courts are involved, that's sort of a given), and Cold Days is basically a non-stop moment of awesome. And that last scene was so utterly poignant...)

(Also, yay! Skin Game comes out in less than a month!)

-Aila

'S all right. Definitely listen at some point, though. It's a brilliant show.

I'd been meaning to get around to posting exactly this... by Ekyl on 2014-05-08 19:09:00 UTC Reply

~~Obviously, the Mysterious Somebody retroactively never existed and PPC history has fallen apart! Oh no!~~

Honestly, it doesn't seem to be a much different status than the EU already enjoyed; Lucas was already vocal about considering the movies the only "real" canon for example, and as much as he was happy to support the EU he's said on multiple occasions that he never even reads it. The announcement says that while the EU's status is being changed, it's not being dismissed, and it's open for the "new" canon to explore as much as they want, with most of the famous stuff running under the Legends banner.

From the perspective of the PPC, the post-ROTJ EU - which seems to mostly be the only stuff affected so far - at worst seems like it'll have turned into a subcanon or alternate universe, which can still be travelled into and stuff. Maybe we'll suddenly have to start charging for old EU stuff being treated as canon, once the new canon exists to contradict it? But it's hardly Armageddon.

Time plays a factor. by zdimensia on 2014-05-08 23:30:00 UTC Reply

In the Legacy of Kain section, it seems perfectly natural to ignore contradictions of canon in fics that were written in-between games.

Basically if you explore a pet theory that is neither cannon or against canon, and then it gets contradicted later, it is still acceptable.
Thoughts by Miah on 2014-05-08 20:26:00 UTC Reply

I think it's probably safe to assume that a lot of the smaller side stories of the EU will escape largely unscathed. I would think that in this case it might be best to go with, 'it's canon until it isn't.' If that makes sense?

Like Wedge Antilles. If he's never mentioned in the new stuff, then what is there to say that the reports from the EU that have him continuing to pilot an X-wing and eventually get promoted to General and be in charge of several groups of X-wings is not what happened to him?

As long as he isn't specifically mentioned in the new canon materials, it makes sense to just take the EU stuff about him as his canon.

Where it gets complicated is when one of those side stories does have something potentially significant. Wedge did help take down Coruscant, and that is a pretty big event that might well get contradicted in the new movies. In which case, does that throw out all of his canon from EU, or only that part of it?