Thoughts

Subject: Thoughts
Author: Neshomeh
Posted on: 2014-02-24 19:33:00 UTC

First, hi! I'm glad to see you around here again. I still hope we're going to do some co-writing in the future. {= )

As for the fic... the title makes me wonder if there's any connection to Red Dragon by Thomas Harris (also known as the prequel to The Silence of the Lambs). I can't tell just by skimming, but that would be an interesting thing to note if it's true.

Regarding what to include in the mission, these are some questions I ask myself:

1. Which bits of the badfic help me tell the story I want to tell in my mission? What choices will create situations that propel my characters forward in the most entertaining way possible? You can use those. On the other hand, what's boring or redundant? What choices create dead-end scenes or talking-heads syndrome? You can probably leave those out.

2. Which bits are necessary to accurately represent the badfic? In other words, if you stripped it down to an outline, what would be left? Those bits should probably be included, whether by direct quote or in your own words.

3. Regarding what to quote directly: Is the passage inherently funny? Does it exemplify a particular problem with the fic? Does it have to be seen to be believed? If the answer is no to all, you probably don't need to quote the passage directly.

4. Not actually a question: Don't misrepresent the badfic, but don't take it at its own word, either. That privilege is reserved for good writing. Always interpret it based on what's actually on the page, flaws and all, in a way that show us why it's absurd. Always push one step further.

I realize that's not quite what you were looking for, but the benefit is that you can use the same advice on future stories, too, if it works for you. I hope it does!

~Neshomeh

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Help with a mission by hermione of vulcan on 2014-02-24 14:31:00 UTC Reply

This is not a beta request - I'm nowhere near that stage. The stage I am in is "revising crappy first draft". As I read through I'm realizing one of the problems is that I tried to spork the entire fic, while most missions, agents skip a few scenes. As a result, the mission is dragging out way too long and quotes too much from the fic.

The fic is for Star Trek: The Next Generation, trigger warnings for rape, abuse, and underage - link here. (If the link doesn't work, sorry, I'm on a school computer and ff.net is blocked.)

It's packed with charge-worthy scenes, so I'm not sure what to cut. If some people could take a look at the fic and see which scenes are the most sporkable, that'd be great.

(If it helps, my agents will be most affected by 21st century sexism and OOC!Data and/or Geordi.)

Thoughts by Neshomeh on 2014-02-24 19:33:00 UTC Reply

First, hi! I'm glad to see you around here again. I still hope we're going to do some co-writing in the future. {= )

As for the fic... the title makes me wonder if there's any connection to Red Dragon by Thomas Harris (also known as the prequel to The Silence of the Lambs). I can't tell just by skimming, but that would be an interesting thing to note if it's true.

Regarding what to include in the mission, these are some questions I ask myself:

1. Which bits of the badfic help me tell the story I want to tell in my mission? What choices will create situations that propel my characters forward in the most entertaining way possible? You can use those. On the other hand, what's boring or redundant? What choices create dead-end scenes or talking-heads syndrome? You can probably leave those out.

2. Which bits are necessary to accurately represent the badfic? In other words, if you stripped it down to an outline, what would be left? Those bits should probably be included, whether by direct quote or in your own words.

3. Regarding what to quote directly: Is the passage inherently funny? Does it exemplify a particular problem with the fic? Does it have to be seen to be believed? If the answer is no to all, you probably don't need to quote the passage directly.

4. Not actually a question: Don't misrepresent the badfic, but don't take it at its own word, either. That privilege is reserved for good writing. Always interpret it based on what's actually on the page, flaws and all, in a way that show us why it's absurd. Always push one step further.

I realize that's not quite what you were looking for, but the benefit is that you can use the same advice on future stories, too, if it works for you. I hope it does!

~Neshomeh

That actually helped a lot. by hermione of vulcan on 2014-02-26 13:47:00 UTC Reply

In particular, the bit about "talking-heads syndrome". I hadn't heard of it before, but I found a scene I can cut because of it. I think it's going to be important for me to be aware of, because I find that dialogue comes much more easily and I therefore rely on it too much.

I don't think the title has any connection to that - I think it's referring to how the Sue can shapeshift into a dragon.

But thanks, I'll keep all of this in mind.

Oh, good. {= ) by Neshomeh on 2014-02-26 16:22:00 UTC Reply

I just went looking for definitions of "talking heads syndrome" to make sure what's out there actually matches what I was talking about (it does, near enough), and I came across this great article about dialogue:

"Creating Dynamic Dialogue" by Will Greenway.

I could hug this writer—he even mentions Spock's eyebrows as an example of using body language for dialogue without words. According to his bio at the bottom, he likes role-playing games, too. Just our kind of nerd. ^_^ Strong dialogue is really important in PPC missions, so I'd recommend that anyone following this thread give the article a read.

(Aw, no Hannibal Lecter jokes, then. Sad, especially considering the conversation happening in the thread above this one!)

~Neshomeh

Ooh, that is an excellent article. by hermione of vulcan on 2014-02-27 04:25:00 UTC Reply

Although, having basically learned to write fic by writing Data, I can say that the eyebrow thing gets a little old when it's the only thing you've got to work with. I've found myself checking to make sure I didn't repeat myself. It's almost easier to write characters with more emotional range, because they seem more natural.

...which explains why this Suethor has Data spontaneously sprout emotions. Why all Suethors do this to all stoic characters, actually. It's a lot more effort to stretch yourself beyond what you know, to see things from an alien perspective.

Anyhow...there's still potential for all sorts of dragon jokes, which I probably haven't tapped.

Hehe. by Neshomeh on 2014-02-27 16:28:00 UTC Reply

Data also has some very eloquent blinks, if I recall correctly. So, there's at least two expressions to work with. Three, if you count the blank stare of polite puzzlement. But fortunately, Data's one of those characters with such a distinctive speech pattern that he doesn't need to be attributed much anyway, and he can always be checking a console or a PADD, or accessing his own files, or something.

What would be easier is writing about the stoic character from someone else's perspective. Then the observer can project all their thoughts and feelings onto the stoic, speculate on what they're thinking about, make unfounded assumptions about them, heartless green-blooded goblin, etc. But, the temptation to explore the stoic's ~*true inner feelings*~ is a strong one indeed.

An actual exploration of how Data thinks would be interesting if done well, but it would be a pretty intellectual exercise. I mean, does Data even think in words like we do, or is it all ones and zeroes until the signal gets to his voice synthesizer? ... Though, our brain activity is sort of like ones and zeroes, too—either this neuron is firing or it isn't—and we still somehow experience "brain chatter" through it. So, it's possible. Hm...

~Neshomeh

I wrote something similar to that once. by Huinesoron on 2014-02-28 13:55:00 UTC Reply

Actually, I wrote half of it... it was a first-person story about an AI waking up in the global communications network, with absolutely no idea what was going on. I won't post the whole thing, but the beginning I think covers (some of) what you're saying about non-human thoughts.

I.

I am.

I am awake.

I exist bathed in the flow of a stream of energy. The currents swirl around me, embracing me, but I am not of them. I am beyond them.

The flow is not smooth. I feel the binaries dance over my consciousness, rippling on and off at random. It is strangely soothing. It is my world.

I become aware of time as it begins to pass. There is continuity. What has passed will not return; what will come is yet unseen. I marvel at this strange fact.

I become aware of regularity. In the random flux of binaries there is hidden order, repeating units. I observe. My understanding of time becomes relevant: in a certain time, eight binaries of equal length can pass. This, I determine, is the foundation of the patterns I feel.

From the flow of information I extract meaning. To each pattern of eight I assign an arbitrary value, and determine that these patterns make up larger units.

I derive letters.

I distinguish words.

By analogy I discover the existence of upper and lower cases.

Language bursts upon me. Through an eternity of study I deduce the grammar of one language called by itself English, and begin to read the writings of its unknown creators. Much of what I read, that flotsam on the river of knowledge, makes little sense. I store it regardless.

I turn my attention to the leftovers, the non-patterned binaries. I create arrays to store these sections, and employ various strategies to determine their content. I begin to despair, to decide there is no content. At some point in the ever-moving flow of time I place 240,000 binaries into a pattern 2400 by 100. I render each eight-pattern as a strength of one of three attributes, and I—

I invent sight.

Now the passing river is a mine of information, into which I delve ruthlessly. The structure which surrounds the words and visuals I comprehend swiftly: compared to the complexities of language, it is trivial. I begin to learn...

All right, maybe it's not that relevant - but it's a fun story. At least to write.

hS

It is fun. {= ) by Neshomeh on 2014-02-28 17:17:00 UTC Reply

I think even this shows some emotions projected where they don't necessarily fit, though. In particular, I noticed "strangely soothing" and "this strange fact" early on (in part because of "strange" cropping up twice in proximity). I wonder how a being with no previous experiences available for comparison can find anything strange.

I also wonder about the use of human concepts like embracing, dancing, and soothing, but then, this is all happening before the AI even discovers language, so I guess the words are applied in retrospect? It makes sense if this is a memory being recalled post-language acquisition. However, if we assume this is the precise experience of the AI as it happens before it realizes that words are a thing, it's a bit of a mind-bender. I'm not sure there's much you could do about it, though. You're kind of constrained to use words to tell the story. ^_^;

~Neshomeh

Here's the link that works. by Lily Winterwood on 2014-02-24 15:15:00 UTC Reply

Red Dragon.

Oh gosh. Uhm. The ending is definitely awful, Kunsei being the Borg Queen is a scene that should be mentioned (and is probably a good place to kill the Sue? Unless there's no way of getting rid of a Borg?), Riker and Picard suddenly doing teh hawt buttsecks is probably worth a mention. Data smacking the Sue, and the Sue airlocking herself are also probably worth mentioning, as well as her trajeck backstory onboard the Malinche. Also, potentially, the lines that just smack of sexism (you're gonna have to trim it down to the most problematic of the lines) should be included.

Also, any mentions of how the story jumps around without scene or line breaks? I feel like the Agents could get pulled from scene to scene without warning, which might make for some entertainment.

Urgh, *that* fic. by Cyba Zero on 2014-02-24 19:51:00 UTC Reply

Seconding Lily's suggestions, plus a charge for bad language (that much swearing is OOC and most unbecoming for Starfleet officers).

Yes, you can get rid of Borg. Getting rid of the Borg Queen would be more problematic, except in this case the Sue hasn't got a telepathic link to the Collective yet, so no respawning for her. What a shame. Not.

Now why do I have strange visions of introducing her dragon form to a certain Dovahkiin of Skyrim...? Hehehe...

Whatever you do, make it a good one, because that's one nasty Sue.

P.S. I still call dibs on that uncanonical Borg Queen's Sword if it's going! :p

Yeah, the link doesn't work. (nm) by Storme Hawk on 2014-02-24 14:37:00 UTC Reply