Jumping in a bit behind the times here, but between this and the recent Eragon thread, I am getting the sense that y'all might like to see some tweaks to the current wording of the Mary Sue wiki article, since as it stands, there is the potential to create this kind of confusion. I think the emphasis needs to be that a Mary Sue story can be enjoyable, but the phrase "if written well" should be taken out in favor of something more clear, yes? Any other thoughts and suggestions are welcome.

Also, I think I'd like to expand on the Canon Sue section, to explain what constitutes story-warping in their case (hS, I might borrow some of your language from this thread if that's okay). Plus, the main Canon Sue article is ugly-looking and needs some revision, IMO. Again, any suggestions are welcome.

~Neshomeh, who still exists; just got a little wrapped up in other stuff for a while.

who dance around with all sorts of Sue traits but turn out likeable anyway.
And there are those like Meghan Whimblesby, who fall into Middle-earth, join the Fellowship, and get Legolas, and yet somehow you still support and cheer for her. (Mostly because the author likes to make her suffer realistically while undergoing all of that canon-bending stuff.)

I think Meghan might be the sort of "well-written Sue" that you might be considering because she bends Canon, yet does it in an entertaining way (or in a way that doesn't make you want to strangle her).

Well, I've seen Harry Potter referred to as a well-written Canon Stu, but...it depends on the definition, really. I mean, if we're going with that if it's well-written and has a plot beyond the MC, then it's not a Stu, then...well, it wouldn't count.

Basically, the opinion that I've seen--and at least partially share--is that Harry is rather a Stu, but Rowling's world is so detailed and full of three-dimensional secondary (and even bit) characters that the books are incredibly enjoyable to read. Any thoughts? Have any of you seen this opinion before?

~DawnFire

In my opinion, firemagic and hS hit it on the head (and it seems that you're getting it): it's all in how you define Sue. Now I haven't read Daughter of Smoke and Bone, but according to what you said, she does not seem like a Sue, since the story does not revolve around her. And if the MC herself has to deal with actual conflict (as opposed to just breezing through everything with her sooper speshul powers because *everyone knows* that nothing should go wrong for the heroine) then that settles it: she's no Sue.

In short, I think that there is a difference (albeit a slight one) between an author loading her main character with so many powers that it breaks the suspension of disbelief even given the continuum, and a full-blown Mary Sue.

P.S.: At the risk of sounding pedantic, it seems that we Anglophones have a problem with pluralizing Deus ex Machina. If you are open to consulting the original Latin, consider Dei ex Machinis.

I think you're talking about the story being written well despite having a Sueish character. Well, Star Trek: The Next Generation had the famed Canon Sue Wesley Crusher, but the show was still excellent, and even the episodes with him weren't that bad, mostly because they worked on debunking his Sue-ish-ness (there's one where his genius-kid science experiment escapes and threatens the ship). They still weren't the high points of the show, though, and as I go down my lists of favorite episodes, I find that he doesn't play a big role in any of them.
In fanfiction, I've found Suefics that have decent SPaG and keep everyone in character, yet are still blatant Suefics. I will be less likely to spork them, though, since there isn't as much to laugh at.

I could plug my more sue-ish characters as being well written, but that of course is just ego stroking, and I generally try to tone down my characters' benefits with equal or greater detriments anyhow, so they don't count.

I guess I could try and claim that Batman is a well-written Stu and see how that goes.

Have you ever read any fantasy novels by Sara Douglass? It's been a long time since I read anything by her, but I remember that she always gave her main characters tons and tons of powers. I mean, like, entire categories of magical abilities. They were usually (if not always) special chosen ones from birth or before, often with angsty pasts, and they could do whatever the plot required. And everyone loved them. I think. I might be misremembering one or two.
But the stories themselves were very interesting and well written nonetheless.

Than just about everyone featured was either a sue or an anti-sue. To be fair, most were either firstborns, gods, or had divine blood running through their veins. So that works.

Another well written canon!sue, in my opinion, would have to be Princes Cadence. She is the pink alicorn princess of love with a special name amongst ponies (though translated roughly from italian, her name is My Love Song, which does sound a little more like a pony name), who foalsat Twilight and is engaged to Twilights brother who is captain of the royal guard and we never heard of before. If I had found that character premise in a fanfiction, she would find herself impaled with a spork so fast.

Yet, I think, she works. Somehow, some way, the writers of the show made her work, and work really well. Not well enough for best princess role, but well enough that I would not kill her if I went absolutely insane and began killing of perceived canon Sues as well. I think the reason as the way she was introduced: we saw the villain cloaked as her first. Then, once Chrysalis was revealed to be a villain, and we see Cadence for the first time, her determination to protect her fiancee, Twilight, and the rest of pony kind, you start to like her. Then when you see that she truly cares for anyone who is willing to be loved, and will even sacrifice her own life to protect those she loves... You actually like her as a character. So there you go ladies and gentlemen, a well written Sue, who has no reasons she should be able to be well written.

However, I assume you mean well written Mary Sues from fanfiction. In that department... Nyx from Past Sins? I don't know, I have not found one other than her who even makes me hesitate. I don't think she is brilliantly well written, and personally am not a fan of hers, but when one character has the fandom split almost in two over whether she is a good character who deserves all of our love, or if she is a flaming Mary Sue who needs to die for the preservation of canon, she definitely gets some hesitation and a mention here. She lies on the absolute border of being a bad Mary Sue and a good Mary Sue, but her Mary Sueness is almost undeniable.

Actually, that said, has anyone else read Past Sins? If you have, what did you think about it and the character of Nyx? If you have not, here is the link to the fic: http://www.fimfiction.net/story/41596/Past-Sins
Pen Stroke is a good author, I think. I have read some of his other works and enjoyed them quite a bit. However, this fic, his most famous one, is the center of a huge amount of gory fights to the death debates, almost all of them about Nyx. As a Mary Sue killing group, it seems like a reasonable place to decide, definitively, whether Nyx is good or bad. Keep in mind, this is not about if the fic is good or bad, this is just about the character of Nyx.

By my understanding and definition of a Mary-Sue, a Sue is badly written. Any premise can be well-written: you can write a good story about a godlike character for whom everything goes right. That makes them not a Mary-Sue.

A Mary-Sue is someone who warps the story. She - or rather her writer - will twist everything to make sure she gets what her writer wants for her. That twisting is what makes the story bad, and is what makes her a Mary-Sue.

If she gets what her author wants for her without having to break the story to do it, she isn't a Mary-Sue.

hS

I mean, the PPC definition kinda means that having an engaging plot doesn't really happen. Anyways, any character can seem Sueish broken down into parts. How did that MC act? If she had actual flaws and suffered consequences she's not really a Sue.