Subject: Nah, questions are good.
Author:
Posted on: 2013-10-22 07:54:00 UTC
Though I am rather perplexed when faced with the concept of a story being a character.
Can you provide an example of a story which has been labeled as such? the Speaker of the Vast Croak does not count
Or perhaps the reviewers are bringing up the "mood" and themes that characterize the story as opposed to referring to it as a living, breathing, sentient being?
Uh, I'm thinking about making an agent for the DAVD, but I noticed that whatever the flashpatch for it is, it's not on the wiki.
If one exists, do any of you know what it is, and if one doesn't, could someone make one?
You know, I've been wondering...
I've heard the setting of a story often referred to as a "character" in reviews, sometimes as a "main character".
If we extend the definition of "character" to include the setting, doesn't our definition of "Mary-Sue" stretch with it- meaning that settings as Mary-Sues are possible?
And if they are...
What would they be like?
What would a charge list for a Suetting (Sue+setting) be?
And who would deal with it- DOGA, DMS, a third department?
Also, I have way too many questions that the Wiki doesn't cover, don't I?
Though I am rather perplexed when faced with the concept of a story being a character.
Can you provide an example of a story which has been labeled as such? the Speaker of the Vast Croak does not count
Or perhaps the reviewers are bringing up the "mood" and themes that characterize the story as opposed to referring to it as a living, breathing, sentient being?
-Middle-earth as the 'main character' of Lord of the Rings (or at least a major character).
-'Serenity' as the tenth main character of Firefly.
There's two ways this can be applied, really: either the setting is so frequently and lovingly described that it can overshadow the animal characters (Tolkien), or the 'setting' is a frequent plot-driver with its own quirks (often this is a spaceship - both Serenity and the Millennium Falcon count, I think).
Can you have 'Sue versions of these? Well, in the latter case, probably yes: if your characters are pretty good, but the spaceship (or whatever) just keeps suffering from 'coincidental' breakdowns in just the right place to advance the plot - and then they fix themselves without the characters having to - that's a Setting-Sue. Usually we'd call one of the characters on it (for manipulating their environment), but if they're not Mary-Sues in themselves, it might well be better to pin it on the setting.
The former case is a bit more tricky, because it overlaps so completely with urple prose. That said, I think it could work - a location that gets Suvian levels of description, and possibly is personified to some degree ('Silvermoon will miss you!' 'The power/spirit of Silvermoon is with me!'), could well be referred to as a Setting-Sue. Again, this is a new term, so yes, we've previously called it other things - but I think it works.
And for my money, they'd be DOGA's responsibility. Apart from Alumia, I don't think we've ever had to exorcise a location before - but we've certainly assassinated them. ;)
hS
Robecca not only managed to possess the landmass itself, but also possessed hundreds of sapient plants and animals that were nearby as she did so. I'm still not sure how the Agents dealt with it, even after reading the story. Apparently Kingdom Hearts magic could split the possessed portions off into mini-Sues, which then merged with the original Robecca after she was removed and charged, allowing her to be permanently killed. I don't know enough about the Kingdom Hearts continuum to determine whether that makes any sense.
There was a case where Arda itself had to be exorcised. That was actually the first case of world possession - Dafydd Illian and Selene Windflower took it on, and then summoned backup.
But I'm not sure these count as actual characters - in my opinion it's more like the way Jay and Acacia first described it, as the canon itself knowing there's something wrong and accepting the help.
...I don't know whether to call it a creation and ask "My gods, what have I done?!" or to call it a discovery and be pleased that I found it before it could cause more damage...
Surprisingly, I haven't yet run out of question marks in my bucket of punctuation, so I guess I can keep asking questions.
What kind of charges could a Mary Suetting rack up?
And for that matter, would dealing with a Suetting be different enough from normal geographic aberrations justify make an entire new division of Pyros?
...
Gods, I just thought of how hard it'd be to deal with a replacement setting. Obviously you'd have to evacuate everyone and everything that would normally be there, and destroy the replacement, and then you'd have to find the real one and put it- as well as everyone and everything inside- back to where it's supposed to be... all while the canons protest because they think the replacement was thier home or ship or workplace or something...
No, you wouldn't have created them. It would be the Suethors who created them, through purple prose and poor establishment gone wild. You don't need to have any sort of breakdown for bringing it to our attention. Unless you have, in which case this message has come woefully too late.
The Pyros should be able to deal with the Sue-settings as they are now, I think. They just might need some big guns to wipe them out completely. I'd recommend bringing in something from the Spore continuum. The high-level Space Stage races there sell weapons that can turn an area the size of a city to a crater in seconds. They're also good for freezing or exploding an entire planet, in case that ever needs to be done.
Actually, in most of the PPC stories I've seen where a setting is altered beyond recognition, the setting returns to its usual state as part of the snapback to canon after the altered location is destroyed and/or the badfic entity responsible for the changes is killed. There have been one or two times when a few buildings or an entire planet had to be pulled out of a plot hole, but I don't remember the specifics.
I suppose that it would just be too difficult to remove an entire island or city from a plot hole and place it back in the crater made by the badfic locale before the snapback hits, not to mention all of the problems of displacing the material that filled in the spot after the altered island or city was destroyed, particularly if that material was water or some other liquid. At least whole planets don't need to be attached to much. They need to be put in the right spot to resume their orbit, but that shouldn't be too difficult in comparison.
This was a good exchange overall. You'd been stressed about the discovery of Sue-settings, and I'd been running low on Bleeprin-candy. Now both of our problems are solved.
I can only find the one, you see, but of course, there's no mission in it, just the set-up. And while it's a very good set-up, I'd really like to see a mission.
The other thing is that I vaguely remember having read a Troll Division mission, but I have no idea who did it or how to find it or if I'm even actually remembering it and not just inventing things. So if anyone knows of a trollfic mission, please let me know where to find it...
~DF
And man, were they crazy. One of them was a Dead Space trollfic that somehow turned off Earth's gravity, and the other was a terrible, terrible Dragon Age fanfic that just got absolutely hilarious.
Did that involve a random Predator showing up, and a sword that was about 10 miles long?
I'm sure I can remember reading something like that.
But it did involve a random Predator thanks to a mishap in the Words.
Sadly, I don't think the mission is accessible at the moment, but I can tell you about it. The trollfic in question was in first person, so Agent July tossed a crash dummy into the fic, and it took on the form of the troll, which was masquerading as Drew Pickles from Rugrats. July watched it do terrible things to a McDonald's kitchen, then dropped a book of matches into one of the fryers, charged the troll with trolling, and burned it.
So, the procedure there is basically the same as a standard assassination, except that the target is a troll instead of a Sue. Dunno how much that squares with the original idea, but there it is.
~Neshomeh
I can email it if anyone wants to read. It's a bit on the NSFB side, if I recall.
It was for a sci-fi continuum, possibly Mass Effect? I'm not 100% sure about that though.
I vaguely remember that the fic in question had references to spaceships that could move at 'double lightspeed' and the Stu jumped out of a ship in orbit, and landed on the ground completely unharmed.
Don't have a link for it at the moment, but I'll see if I can dig it out.
I believe this is the link: http://vgdivision.dreamwidth.org/2599.html
Although it probably didn't help that I gave you a bit of a red herring by mentioning Mass Effect.
The mission I was struggling to remember is actually this excursion into the Dead Space continuum.
I'll get on that now, and hey, not a total loss - at least now there's at least three good trollfic examples in this thread. :P
You know, most departments also have nicknames for agents, like "Unentanglers" or "Assassins".
The DAVD also doesn't have one.
If it doesn't matter to the rest of you, I propose "Sadies"- short for 'Sadists', and because a good way to survive watching Disturbing Acts of Violence may be to develop a strong sadistic streak. (If not, I will blame the PPC's not adhering to reality for it working)
Calling DAVD agents “Sadies” would totally put me off.
The agents are “nicknamed” for what they do: the Assassins assassinate, the Exorcists exorcise and the Unentaglers disentangle, so it isn’t even a nickname, it’s their profession. Only the Pyros of the Department of Geographical Aberations seem to be nicknamed for their preferred method rather than their profession of destroying.
So what do you think DAVD(a) agents do or which methods do they use?
HG
We know a lot of people in HQ who don't actually work in the department find DAVD agents kinda creepy, and in such a massive place with so many beings bumping shoulders every day, with the kinds of stress levels agents build up, you're going to have people who don't like each other, so I could imagine sometimes people from different departments make up derogatory nicknames.
Sure it's an insult now, but still...
I'm again sorry for the whole "sadism" fiasco, but I've decided to just own up to it before I have to go for a few weeks (thanks to impending technical problems) instead of run away like a coward right now.
Anyway, with THAT cleared up...
The Disturbing Acts of Violence Department would I guess be Medics (after the class from TF2).
They're there when a Suethor or badficcer has done actual physical harm, possibly in lethal quantities, to a canon and its characters, far beyond what the rest of the PPC, even with FicPsych and Medical, can fix, and THEY can set things right in those scenarios- expecially when the canon doesn't snap back of its own accord like it does in Cupcakes/Snapback (which, in my opinion, should've been handled by the DAVD.)
That miraculous quality is from its medical team, DAVD(m). From one source, DAVD(m) can reglue on a decapitated head and the character comes back to life. Try getting Medical to repeat THAT feat and see what you get.
On top of that, a DAVD(i) or DAVD(a) agent has to witness a LOT more violence in one fic than many Spies, Assassins, Exorcists, Unentanglers, ect. have to deal with in thier careers, and DAVD(a) usually would have to deal with Mary Sues, Sue-Wraiths, Replacements, ect. that can fight back, as opposed to an Assassin's Mary Sues and Replacements, or an Exorcist's Sue-wraiths, which usually don't.
Hence, a name based off of the name of a class in a violent first-person-shooter video game.
With that being said, I suggest the divisions take on medical-sounding names to fit with that theme.
For instance:
>DAVD(a) could be "Battle medics" (after the nickname used in TF2 for Medics that fight the enemy directly instead of healing teammates), since they actually confront the Sue or whatever directly as well as get the bodies/wounded to DAVD(m))
>DAVD(i) could be "diagnosers" (or "diaggers" for short, this one should be obvious)
>and DAVD(m) could be "Doctors", which relates both to the fact that they're aparrently a lot better than the Nurses from Medical and to the "mad-scientist-crazy" cures they perform (I mean, gluing a decapitated head on? Really?)
Hopefully these suggestions are a lot better than the insensitive "sadies" thing...
-you get."? Pretty much the same thing, from most sources I've seen. Regular Medical has, for example, brought people back from being boiled alive in at least one mission I've read. :P
...Well there went the arguement that the DAVD(m) was somehow better than the MD.
Though that poses the question as to why the DAVD has its own medical division... 'cause it's closer or something?
I don't think this is stated anywhere, but I figure Fizz R the Bizarre's practice is so highly specialized he's not good for anything else. You wouldn't go see him for a simple broken bone, and it's probably been so long since he last saw a case of the flu he'd be just as likely to kill you as cure you. On the other hand, if you need to reattach severed limbs, repair mangled organs, or remind a canon character that no, they're not dead, and certainly not undead, we promise—then he's your guy. Sure, the Medical Department's got an Igor, but Fizz is a lot more personable in that he is an actual human person.
Then there's the meta explanation that the PPC was far less cohesive back in the day, and people pretty much did their own thing without worrying too much about what was happening in other spin-offs as long as they didn't outright contradict the Original Series. Plus, originally, it was unusual for the Medical Department to treat canon characters, whereas canons were DAVD(m)'s main clientele. But I like my theory.
~Neshomeh
In one of the already-existing DAVD stories it clearly states that DAVD(m) has had at least 5 medical personnel at one point.
So nope, it's not just Fizz R the Bizzare.
Fizz having helpers/colleagues doesn't make DAVD(m) a general practice clinic. There's only a handful of them—who's to say they're not just as specialized as he is?
~Neshomeh
I'll see if I can track down any better answers to the question, though, because it's in the back of my mind somewhere.
Sure, the departments do completely different things, but in-universe if you say "Medic" people are going to think the MD.
True. Plus the DAVD as medics are kind of a stretch...
Just slow down and take some time to tread water before you try to dive deeper. You're currently suffering from what I call Newbie Keenness, which is basically just a lot of enthusiasm untempered by experience. Enthusiasm is good, you don't want to lose that, but you want to use it to go out there, read what's already been written, and learn how things work before you try to do it yourself. Otherwise, you'll just keep running up against stuff you don't know yet, and it'll stop being fun pretty quickly.
So, let this lie for now, go read the original DAVD stories, the Original Series, and some other spin-offs, and relax. You're not going to be writing missions this week, or next week, or probably even the week after that. You've got time. {= )
~Neshomeh
...I have already read TOS, but I haven't read the DAVD stories...
...By the way, can you point me to the others? I can only find three DAVD stories on the wiki, and I feel like there should be more...
For missions, at least. You can find other stories where DAVD agents show up by looking through the agent pages in the Disturbing Acts of Violence Department category, though.
~Neshomeh
... if the Pyros were nicknamed for their department, I'd've had to call them 'Doggies'. ;)
hS
I mean, I don't think the old alumni would be amused, but still. :P
...that and the accidental italicizing of half the board down below...
...at least THAT got fixed, but unfortunately this can't...
I'm an absolute idiot.
I'm sorry.
...I'll come back when I'm a bit less of an idiot...
...might take a couple weeks...
As Nesh said, I think it's less a case of idiocy going here and more a case of extreme enthusiasm.
And hey, you know what? I like enthusiastic people that are coming up with ideas! Coming up with ideas is part of the fun of writing, and I think you're taking a step in the right direction. Now all that's left is to temper those ideas a little bit. I think this is a matter that most people struggle with, so you're actually not completely alone in that regard.
So no, I don't think you're acting like an idiot. I think that this is a case of inexperience, which is not the same thing.
I think, if you read the original DAVD stories by Katharine, you may note a lack of sadism and, rather, the presence of compassion for the characters being forced to suffer though such horrible things at the whim of some author. In fact, I'd go so far as to say the DAVD is anti-sadism. There's a reason it's called the Disturbing Acts of Violence Department. Nobody is there because they enjoy watching their favorite characters suffer, and *puts on Permission-Giver hat* that's not something I would ever want to see in a PPC agent in any department. */hat*
Also, what makes you think it's unrealistic for someone to be in the DAVD for a reason other than enjoying other people's pain? O.o
~Neshomeh
Well... there goes that...
I was thinking that the sadism would be protective on the agent's part. If they weren't, it would be extra stress on thier sanity...
...
However, after reading your comment, I'm definitely dropping the sadism thing.
I'm an idiot for even thinking it.
Also, yeah, I need to read those.
*pulls up PPC Wiki*
At this point, there have basically been two people who write with DAVD - the original creator (who Miss Cam's site tells me was 'Katherine the Great'), and me (because I used them extensively in The Reorganisation, Crashing Down, and a handful of stories since - actually, maybe only one, but I have another half-written). Oh, beg pardon, there's also one mission featuring Ginmar, who I don't know who was written by.
And... well, Katherine and Ginmar wrote before 'everyone has flash patches' was a thing, and I've never found a reason to create one. We don't really have a system for making new patches for departments which lack them, so I'm going to suggest the honour goes to the first person to write a mission and want to make a patch. If you get that far, that could be you.
That said, DAVD is an... interesting department. They have their own Intelligence and Medical divisions (I know Fizz R the Bizarre showed up in a recent mission, I think Neshomeh's), and are basically their own little world. They have a nice cast of Flowers, although their human staff are mostly unnamed (Ginmar might still be around, and Rile X is still alive - though the rest of the DAVD(i) lot are dead or retired, as are almost all named DAVD(a) characters). So it could be a challenging department to work with.
That also means it could be very rewarding. What sort of direction are you thinking of taking them? Are you planning a set of DAVD(i) characters to back up the action team - or, indeed, are you thinking of following Dour K's footsteps and writing an Intel agent?
hS
Well, I'm actually planning on creating at least one DAVD(a) agent (which is pretty much needed since, as you said, they're out of named agents), a Pikachu named Shocker from the Pokemon Mystery Dungeon series (which means sentient and able to talk), but I actually hadn't thought of DAVD(i). The reason I'd need a flashpatch is because Agent Shocker would have a very minimal uniform consisting of a black shirt with the division flashpatch and a hat with the department flashpatch.
I wasn't planning on any DAVD(i) agents...
If the honor's going to me (which by the way I don't have permission yet- I actually just joined- so someone could, at any rate, beat me to that), I think the department flashpatch would be a drop of blood, and the division ones would be:
DAVD(a): Drop of blood, with a dagger overlaid on top
DAVD(i): Drop of blood under a magnifying glass
DAVD(m): Drop of blood, with a red cross overlaid on top
The blood thing is 'cause another term for violence is "bloodshed".
At least, so says the guy with two DAVD(A) agents who's working on a mission for them among many, many other projects. It probably needs reworking though so it could be a bit, and either way I look forwards to seeing your DAVDers in action! It's not my call really, but for what it's worth I kinda like your patch ideas.
(Incidentally, why not "Daves" for a nickname?)
Thanks.
Also I'm not sure how "Daves" would relate to the DAVD- OHHH... Now I get it...
Pretty puntastic name, I admit.
(incidentally, I'm now hitting upon the idea of a character with multiple (well, two) personalities that could "think" to each other in his head- that way, he'd have all the bantering of two agents, but would be only one.)
For your elucidation. {= )
~Neshomeh
Wow.
Heh... I guess I'll be reading some of her work...
Well, I'd definitely have him in a different writing style than Rose/Ross (with the two mostly communicating to each other in thier heads, through thought)...
...and I can still say he's the first multiple-personality agent that was created using a typo (he couldn't make up his minds) in a (fictional) badfic and then recruited...
...however I don't know if it would be termed as plagiarism or stealing ideas or whatever. Anyone know?
I'd call it something of a grey area, but we generally change the character's name and stuff to avoid direct plagiarism.
No, no, I meant as in a recruit from a badfic with that specific problem.
Though I've officially scrapped that and am taking the "effects from being a badfic recruit" in a different direction, having scrapped the multiple personalities as imminent theft of an idea.
Now the previously-mentioned Pikachu was a bit character that had no physical description other than being a pikachu, so without his uniform he bears absolutely no physical deviation from a basic, generic, average pikachu, at least as described in the article on Bulbapedia. (Mental deviations however are a given.)
Reminds me of the Dr. Seuss poem "Too Many Daves."
Did I ever tell you that Mrs. McCave
Had twenty-three sons and she named them all Dave?
~Neshomeh
You know, 'cause Dave misses the D at the end.
That would be a problem for Davids named David though...
That is, referring to agents in-prose by their department nicknames makes sense when it's Assassin or Pyro or Slasher or whatever, but writing "David" over and over would get either confusing or bad-silly pretty fast, is my worry.
avoid confusion by writing it "DAViDs," perhaps. You still wouldn't want to overuse it, since it's clunky to look at, but there'd be no doubt about what you were referring to.
~Neshomeh
It might even be something to be proud of, in a strange sort of way. I suppose the specific reaction would depend on his personality, but it would at least be a decent conversational icebreaker.
That would be adorable and sadistic at the same time...
Well, I was thinking that since Shocker would be a (talking) Pokemon, he'd be naturally violent. Plus I'm thinking of sporking Cheerilee's Garden which (kinda) fits in the DAVD's department (it's disturbing and violent), so I'd need an agent in the DAVD(a).
After actually reading the DAVD fics, I've basically come to the conclusion that not only is Cheerilee's Garden a DAVD-bound fic, but Cupcakes should've been handled there too.
The Special Operation Division lacks its own patch, and if I remember correctly divisions have different patches from the department they belong to.
I had an idea about the design (a coat-of-arms like thing with a rifle, a sword and a magic wand crossed, with or without the hyacint in the background), but I lack the skills for actually makign it...
I ask because I can't quickly find evidence of that, and also because if they do, then I'd like to propose that the Troll Division gets one too...
Oh, hey, actually, yeah, there's a precedent. Specifically, both ESAS and SIELU--divisions of the Department of Floaters--have their own patches, as do a number of other divisions. I just got confused upon looking at the many divisions of the DMS and not seeing separate patches...although the DMS simply has so many it might not be worth it. Although I can definitely see an agent designing one, wearing it, and causing a panic among the rest of the division...and possibly a 'design a flashpatch!' contest...hm.
Any ideas for what sort of patch the Troll Division might have?
~DF
Two Urple Cookies says the Troll Division will end up having the "trollface" meme as their flash patch...
Well, either that or one of those little troll dolls--you know, the ones with the colorful hair?
Or maybe it would be something completely unrelated...such as a bottle of bleepka. Or a cellphone. Or a dolphin...
You know, something really unexpected might actually work best, as most trollfics tend to have a summary that has nothing whatsoever to do with the actual fic--the storyline of which is often completely insane and weird--
The Troll Division flashpatch is the 'trollface' meme with fluffy hair on a psychedelic background. (Possibly with a bleepolate chip in the corner).
(Thoughts?)
~DF
...should be, as you mentioned, a completely insane thing.
I propose that it should be a flying green lawnmower.
...how would anyone be able to tell it was flying? Unless...
Okay, so the Troll Division may have had, at one point, flashpatches that move. As in, there is a green lawnmower flying around on them. It may be either a 'very far in the future' thing, or something that gets damaged easily, though, so it was discontinued...
...y'know, I'm finding it kind of hilarious that I'm starting to work on adding to the Troll Division (as far as I can find out, it only ever had one mission)...using characters who are not actually part of the division and may never transfer there. Although I may have to do something about that...possibly the Troll Division is either overworked, understaffed, or both, so these two that I'm thinking of get moved there indefinitely? They wouldn't be too happy about it, of course, but when are agents ever happy with the Flowers' decisions?
~DF
...sorta like a circular patch with a blue background with little white clouds here and there and the green lawnmower sailing majestically through the sky, coming at the viewer.
A trollface patch for Troll Division seems too obvious. Heck, I don't think we ever got an explanation as to why DMS has a cactus on their patch.
Back in the day, flashpatches made no sense. DMS had a potted cactus, DBS had a rubber ducky, Personnel had a flaming stickman, Bad Roleplay had a swift (or something). The only one that made the blindest bit of sense was Implausible Crossovers' flying pig. Then...
... well, from what I recall, then I showed up, and gave the Pyro Department a flame insignia. Since then, virtually every patch has made sense (DTE has a red pen, DTO a battered alarm clock, etc etc). I'm not saying I started it - I may have been following a recent trend - but I was there pretty early on.
So, for [INSERT UNDECIDED FLASHPATCH HERE], I propose a pair of six-sided dice. One should be showing seven dots. The other should show three and a bit (to represent pi).
hS
Nope, no explanation - at least as far as I'm aware.
The closest I can think of is these lines from TOS 'What Might Have Been':
'Acacia walked several steps in front of Jay, possibly trying to pretend they were not partners. This was difficult, because they were both covered in the same kind of blood and both wearing the insignia of a potted cactus, which was the logo of the Department of Mary Sues. (Presumably there was some reason for this, but neither of them had ever heard it.)'
I like it.