Subject: I have one question...
Author:
Posted on: 2015-08-11 22:02:00 UTC
And one question only. Why not use human (or near-human) agents?
Subject: I have one question...
Author:
Posted on: 2015-08-11 22:02:00 UTC
And one question only. Why not use human (or near-human) agents?
So, I've been working on Carnage and Sesrik (My new Thin Man agent and Carnage's partner), and I was wondering if someone could look them over and see what needs improving. The links are here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XyYGa0wSYeU-KcM5Fttt9g2WrDaMCH5dILWcpq-aIi4
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Kz1SFNZHiKhvcT3VyIiQTeC0rySxexbxCrSi-W8Wj4Y
My main question with Carnage is not "Why a dragon?" or "Why a monster?", but "Why a kaijuu?" The vulnerability to cold in particular is extremely characteristic of a red dragon in D&D and related games. I feel like that should at least be referenced somewhere as an inspiration. Honestly, I'm not sure what the kaijuu elements add, except as a reference to his somewhat overly complex backstory. The other thing I find off-putting is the sheer length of his powers section - it's longer than both the personality and bio sections. I know dragons are dangerous, but it seems a little excessive. I don't think he needs pyrokinesis AND thermal manipulation AND fire-breathing. Finally, I don't really understand why he hated humans. Because they're greedy and bad for the environment? Because he wants to conquer the world and they're in his way? I know he's technically an ex-Stu, so sensible motivations might not always be a factor, but I'm concerned that might intrude on Sesrik's schtick.
A DND red dragon would work with the backstory - Carnage is supposed to be from a crossover with MLP:FiM, and the reason you get cool monsters showing up in that show all the time is that Hasbro owns the rights to the Monster Manual and similar. A red dragon just works better, and you also have more of the dynamic of old vs. new - which you can't do with kaiju for reasons I should hope are obvious. =]
Now that I've had the time to look at your agent bios, both together and separately, I'll spend some time with both general thoughts and each of them. I'll preface this by saying that I have constructive intents here and I don't mean to be demeaning. (Of course, my own experience with such a disclaimer implies that some things about your bios don't sit well with me, but hey, that's what concrit's for. ^^;)
First off, Scapegrace is correct in that first-time agents don't have to be human. Looking at a lot of Permission prompts and starting missions my fellow Boarders have written, I believe the reason so many people go with human agents as a basic "starting kit" is that, as TV Tropes puts it, Most Writers are Human. This means people are much easier to write for us than non-humans are, because we relate to other people much easier than we would a bird made of knives, a nine-foot-tall insect, or for that matter, a fire-breathing dragon. We tend to see monsters as, well, things, and not characters, which is why so many horror movies nowadays don't leave a lasting impression. I think the scare could be greater if you can relate to the creature in some way. On a broader scale, unless you start with a species that's already subject to some degree of anthropomorphism, such as a Pokemon, a non-human agent is a greater challenge than a human one, but has the benefit in that you don't have to stick to tradition. It's just a matter of personal taste. I personally find that trying to write a World One agent who stumbled upon the PPC via a plot hole would be boring compared to, say, writing Falchion or Cupid, for example. (Also worth noting is that Darkotas sent in two non-human agents for Permission as well, a Gungan and a Warcraft ogre I believe.) It's harder to build a strong base for either of them than for a human, especially a World One agent with a simple tried-and-true formula, but I can say with confidence that it's not impossible by any stretch of the imagination.
With that being said, I had a look at each of your agents, and I feel that while they could use a little work - okay, a LOT of work - you seem to be off to a good start. I'm not familiar with XCOM, but I had a look at the Thin Men, and the first thing that came to mind was the Uncanny Valley. I'm reminded of the agents from The Matrix movies, but with disturbing proportions, acid breath, and so on. The biggest thing that threw me off with his bio, though, was the lack of a History section. Without it, I couldn't really picture how he ended up in the PPC in the first place, which is really important if you want to build up his backstory. Suggestions include either going with the old plot hole trick like with Falchion (albeit with a good explanation as to why the plot hole was there in the first place; just having it show up for no reason would sound like an ass-pull to the reader), being found by an agent group in a badfic as with Cupid or Backslash, or else escaping from a badfic like Lapis. You didn't indicate whether any of these was the case, which really bothered me when I first read the bio, because it made him look as though he only existed to support Carnage (whom I'll get to in a bit). Every agent has a story to tell, and Sesrik should too if you want him to pass as a solid character. Scape made a good point about the Thin Men being essentially living tools without emotion or honor, so exploring how that would mesh with the PPC and its mix of democracy and comedy would be an interesting path to take. Hey, if Chakkik can do it, perhaps Sesrik can too.
As for Carnage... I honestly have more problems with him personally, even though I get what you're trying to do and I can understand why. An agent that's essentially a shrunken-down kaiju would pose some interesting implications, especially regarding how he now lives among the people he once towered over and within the buildings he used to destroy. It doesn't help that I once thought of an Indominus rex replacement as an agent, but I digress. However, when I looked at his bio, I noticed that it was too long. By itself, it's not too bad in terms of verbosity - I myself went into quite a bit of detail with both of my starting agents - but what was really jarring for me was that Carnage's bio was too long relative to Sesrik's. This is the other reason for my sentiment that the latter came off as only being there to support the former. A massive part of the reason for this is that while his abilities are par for the course as far as kaiju are concerned (many of the ones I've created have just as many cool tricks), a human sized kaijin of sorts is a wholly different animal, quite literally so. Carnage could probably wipe half of HQ off the map if he lost his temper, and the bloodlust he has as a "weakness" does not help, especially because if he's going to be an assassin, he'd have to witness the deaths of every Sue he'll come across. (I had the same complaint about the bloodlust lobbied against me when I first introduced Rayner; I've since been sorting it out, but I must say that it just doesn't mesh well with how agents work.) Everything else is reasonable, though I would again agree with Scape's suggestion to make Carnage a Noble Demon of sorts. Kaiju were originally created by war and violence, so it would make sense to have Carnage be born from, well, carnage, and have to live with the consequences. In his case, since he's burned everything, he has nothing left to do, so it's only fair that he starts moving down from the top, taking a good long look at the smaller beings he once lorded over and starting to empathize with them. (As for the shrinking thing, don't worry about it too much - my second DIC mission involved the use of a Shrink Ray to deal with a giant Sonic replacement.)
With all that being said, I'd still give him far fewer powers than he has in this version of the bio. If the technology the PPC has can shrink him, getting rid of his more dangerous powers wouldn't be too much of a stretch. The only powers I'd give him would be his thick, possibly fireproof scales, to contrast with Sesrik's vulnerability (and even then make him vulnerable to certain things like cold), and his fire breath, because, well, he's a dragon. Among his weaknesses, I think the bloodlust has to go, unless you can write it sensibly into the PPC like I did with Rayner and that I highly doubt because, well, my poor pony boy has to take meds to suppress his condition. I will reiterate that a bloodthirsty predator does not an agent make.
As far as final thoughts go, my major piece of advice would be to think carefully about how your characters would work within the setting you're trying to put them in, as opposed to looking at them within a vacuum. This is a pretty common trap for Sues/Stus in general, and believe me, I myself was guilty of it plenty of times back in the day, as if that angry T. rex!Violet I had slain on my very first mission wasn't enough of an indicator. The PPC is not, however, a free-for-all, but a coherent and cohesive universe where everyone has their place, use, and limits. It's important to know in particular what your characters' limits are, and whether they fit the standards of the PPC and its community. I like where you're headed with your characters, but they need to have their capabilities and mentalities not only defined more clearly but also scaled down very much in order to gel with their peers. As it is, I'm not confident in either of these aspects for either of these agents, and until I see a lot more streamlining and tightening for them both, my hopes that they'll get a pass when you request Permission are uncomfortably slim.
Now, then, I wonder if I can get your e-mail? I'd be happy to discuss your agents further and serve as both a sounding board and a beta reader if you need one in the future. :)
-SS
It's yetanotherweirdperson@gmail.com. Please don't ask why.
Well, first off: Agents that are murder-machines tend to be hard to pull off. It seems like these two are interested in killing Sues because of the killing part, not because of the crimes-against-canon part:
"as a former world conqueror, he views Sues as pathetic amateurs who try and fail to compensate for their lack of finesse with an arsenal of powers that they are incapable of properly using"
and
"Carnage views Sues as insults to nature itself-they’re a feeble attempt to “improve” their species, but only succeed in bringing out their worst qualities"
It seems like these two don't have much love for the canon, so why are they are in the PPC? Also, while murder-crazy Agents can show up and work - see Desdendelle's Amris - they need someone else to hold them back and be a counterpoint. But in this case it seems like these two'd just cause each other to be worse.
For another thing, it seems like you're focusing too much on what these guys can do, and not why they do it. Powers are often immaterial in missions, what with disguises and all, and personalities are much more crucial to good agents/
And finally - dark humor =/= talking about the worst ways to torture Sues. In fact, the actual in-universe PPC has rules against torture, for good reason! And agents who act like that tend to not be very fun to read.
And one question only. Why not use human (or near-human) agents?
Besides the reasons that other PPCers have listed, there are four other reasons why I chose to make my agents the species that they are:
1. I wanted my agents to be firsts-just with their species, I've just created the PPC's first agents from both D&D and XCOM.
2. The badfics I've got my eye on involve a lot of powerful Sues and Stus: no less than eleven dragons; a kaiju; a Character Replacement of the Colossal Titan that turns into Crystalak; a colony of xenomorphs, including a replacement of Queen Chrysalis who's become half-xenomorph, a giant non-canonical xenomorph, and multiple Yautja; and an entire army of changelings led by Queen Chrysalis' "daughter"; some Stu with an Omnitrix and the ability to turn into an Indominus Rex; a legendary Primal Carnage badfic; and an Indominus Rex that somehow ends up in Equestria. To take these things down, I need heavy firepower.
3. Carnage has been sitting in my head for years, unquestionably a Gary Stu. It's about time I put him to work.
4. I run on Dwarf Fortress logic. More monster=more fun to me.
If these are your first agents, you'll have a lot more leeway and options within a story if you don't have to keep shaping things around the size or bestial nature of your agents. Remember that direct conflict with a Sue is maybe a few sentences at best, and aren't usually the reason people read a mission. You're going to need enough characterization to last pages upon pages of dialogue, taking charges, and potential interaction with other agents or canons. The Sue is not the direct threat that an agent fights; rather, the influence the Sue has on the canon around them is. And right now... I'm a bit worried your agents in their current state might add to that influence.
I think what Glarn's going for is a "he who fights monsters" kind of deal, with fantasy monsters of the old school represented by Carnage and newer aliens represented by Sesrik. It's an interesting jumping-off point, and I think if Carnage had more of a Noble Demon thing compared to Sesrik's win-at-all-costs sneakiness there's potential for a really awesome discussion of different cultures' notions of honour.
Also, and I speak only for myself: so what if people aren't using human agents? We're under no obligation to do so. Why is Amris a Culture drone and not merely a psychotic human? Why does the Librarian have to be a Time Lord when there are plenty of smug, asinine World One chaps knocking around? If you can get a good st
I think what Glarn's going for is a "he who fights monsters" kind of deal, with fantasy monsters of the old school represented by Carnage and newer aliens represented by Sesrik. It's an interesting jumping-off point, and I think if Carnage had more of a Noble Demon thing compared to Sesrik's win-at-all-costs sneakiness there's potential for a really awesome discussion of different cultures' notions of honour.
Also, and I speak only for myself: so what if people aren't using human agents? We're under no obligation to do so. Why is Amris a Culture drone and not merely a psychotic human? Why does the Librarian have to be a Time Lord when there are plenty of smug, asinine World One chaps knocking around? If you can get a good story out of it, you can get a good story out of it. Simple as that, as far as I'm concerned. =]
The problem isn't non-human agents. It's non-human agents for the sake of powers, monstrosity, etc. The Librarian is a Time Lord because of his origin story and nothing more (though it really helps with his racism, so to speak - so many more reasons to belittle humans when you aren't one, etc). Amris is a Culture Drone because that's a different sort of character that has a different mindset and works in different ways.
Oh, and apropos Amris: can you guess who are the two major inspirations for him?
A dragon on the one hand and an alien bioweapon on the other? They're very different mindsets that work in different ways, both from each other and from the reader.
If these were my agents - and I know they're not - I'd write Carnage as a kind of Noble Demon figure, a victorious general who, to (mis)quote Plutarch, "saw the breadth of his domains and wept, for there were no lands left to conquer". Evil, certainly, but with a strict personal code; unable to so much as countenance deviating from it. Honourable in all his dealings, just evil and with the muscle to back it up.
Sesrik, on the other hand, is rather different. Thin Men were clearly designed to be infiltrators; sneaks and assassins, carving up government figures, liaising with fifth-columnists like EXALT, and trying to break human resistance from the inside. They're tools. They don't feel emotion, because emotion clouds your perspective; they know no honour, because honour limits your options. They are an acid-vomiting, plasma-blasting, incomparably evil clone race; not because of any specific malice, but rather the will to dominate matched with a total indifference to the so-called "rules of war".
That'd be an interesting matchup to read about; the agent of aliens and the king of hell, thrust into the last war, the war that will claim them by degrees, the war where there are always more lands left to save. It'd be... possibly a little dark for the setting, but I think if Sesrik's arc was being introduced to a joke and shaking its hand, they could be a lot of fun.
But meh, I'm just spitballing. =]
Your writing is beautiful.
I'm not a PG, but I took a look at the profiles and I have some thoughts.
First things first: I'm a bit concerned you're focusing too much on the "coolness" factor of an agent as opposed to making an agent that is well-rounded. Looking at Carnage, for example, I'm seeing a LOT of things about all the cool things he can do and his combat capabilities, but not a lot about who he is. He seems to be focused around, well... just killing and fighting. That can work, but I'm not seeing enough characterization to compensate. Remember, he isn't going to be in his natural form most of the time, he'll be in disguise. Most of those abilities you listed will be moot.
Sesrik... is a good start. He's cold calculating, and a former malevolent alien. Okay, cool. But who is he? Why does he stay in the PPC? Having his entire reason be "he likes fighting Sues" won't really give you a lot of options for stories, IMO. Flesh him out as an individual first, and as an agent second.
You haven't given it. ^_^
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hS