I think you're looking at this from the wrong side.

Subject: I think you're looking at this from the wrong side.
Author: Huinesoron
Posted on: 2015-06-17 10:35:00 UTC

I'll take your example:

Is every American a fat, dumb hick from Texas, who eats hamburgers and has six guns on them at all times? Of course not! We carry twelve.

That isn't a joke at the expense of Americans. It's obviously a stereotype, so you don't actually assume it's about all Americans. Equally, people aren't going to look at the topic of this thread and say 'how can you say such things about mothers?'.

What it is is a joke at the expense of people who can be described as:

-Fat
-Dumb
-Hick
-From Texas
-Eats hamburgers
-Likes guns

You're doing the equivalent of saying 'Frodo's so stupid, he could be a dwarf!' and then protesting that it's funny because everyone knows Frodo's not as stupid as a dwarf. Yeah, great - but it's not Frodo who's going to get upset. It's the dwarves you're casting as archetypically dumb.

Another way of saying it: laughing at your stereotype of 'Americans = fat' carries with it a requirement that you agree 'fat = bad'.

(If I haven't made my point clear, please check what I'm trying to say; I'm not sure how well it's come across.)

hS

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Anyone wants to start a 'Yo Mama' Showdown? by Matt Cipher on 2015-06-16 21:06:00 UTC Reply

Just before I start: I don't want to offend anyone's mother in particular.

So, to put it simply: give me your best Yo mama jokes. So fat, so stupid, so ugly, so old... let's gather 'em all, just like Pokemon! I'll divide the jokes into categories below, and let's see which one reigns supreme!

Yo mama rambles so much... by JulyFlame on 2015-06-18 22:03:00 UTC Reply

...Tolkein's less wordy than her.

Yo mama's so lost, her last name is Crusoe.

Yo mama's so tone deaf, she sings 'Happy Birthday' on pitch in a crowd of people.

Yo mama's so old, she predates the Big Bang.

Yo mama's so out of touch, she thinks a banana's a phone.

...

Yo mama nags so much, she's actually a mare.

Yo mama's so short... by Scapegrace on 2015-06-18 22:57:00 UTC Reply

Scientists ask her what quarks look like.

Yo mama's so broke, Africa's holding a rock concert for her.

Yo mama's so dumb, she can't read this joke saying how dumb she is.

Yo mama's so old, she's got dust where her skeleton used to be, and the dust has arthritis.

And lastly:-

Yo mama's so smart,
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She prefers me.

Yo mama so beautiful, by Alleb on 2015-06-17 12:40:00 UTC Reply

she makes Queen Grimhilde jealous.

Hey, who said they had to be negative?

Yo mama so kind, by Alleb on 2015-06-18 04:29:00 UTC Reply

Cinderella looks mean by comparison!
...I like the way you think :) by DawnFire on 2015-06-17 12:54:00 UTC Reply

Yo mama so smart Hermione Granger wants to be just like her.

Nobody said anything :) by Matt Cipher on 2015-06-17 14:18:00 UTC Reply

Yo mama such a hot blonde, her eyes are bluer than Heisenberg's crystal!

Yo mama sings so well... by DawnFire on 2015-06-17 14:20:00 UTC Reply

...Beren said, "Forget Luthien--you're the new Nightingale!"

(Rhyme? Yes? No? :D)

~DF

A bit outside category by EileenAlphabet on 2015-06-17 08:47:00 UTC Reply

But at one time I was watching a show about astronomy and how the universe was created with a friend and every time the speaker mentioned objects that were superlarge, superheavy or supermassive we just yelled 'Like your mom!'
I am a very classy person with very classy friends.
Yo mama so ugly by doctorlit on 2015-06-16 21:22:00 UTC Reply

Luxury said, "Well, maybe just for a few minutes . . ."

OOOOH SNAP!!! by Matt Cipher on 2015-06-16 21:30:00 UTC Reply

I think we have the Champion so far~! :D

Yo mama so ugly, when she plays Five Nights at Freddy's the animatronics hide from her!

Yo mama so ugly, when a dementor kissed her... by Iximaz on 2015-06-16 21:35:00 UTC Reply

...it died.

Ba-dum tss! :D by Matt Cipher on 2015-06-16 21:37:00 UTC Reply

You're done, Ixi!

Yo mama so ugly, everybody calls her "She-Who-Must-Not-Be-Naked"!

Well... by KittyEden on 2015-06-16 23:37:00 UTC Reply

Yo mama so ugly that the Daleks don't even bother saying 'exterminate' when they see her. They figure someone else got there first!

Could we not? by Neshomeh on 2015-06-16 21:21:00 UTC Reply

I personally find this kind of joke to be in poor taste. It's possible that I'm in the minority, in which case I'll just shut up and pretend this thread doesn't exist, but I'd like to think we could collectively espouse a higher standard of humor in a joke competition hereabouts.

~Neshomeh

And then I thought for a few minutes... by Neshomeh on 2015-06-16 21:33:00 UTC Reply

... and realized what this actually is, or rather could be, is a hyperbole contest. In which case it wouldn't by definition have to be insulting toward moms, people with weight issues, people who aren't conventionally attractive, etc. Which would be perfectly fine. So, maybe that instead? A good bit of hyperbole is indeed a joy to behold.

~Neshomeh

Hmmm...? :) by Matt Cipher on 2015-06-16 21:35:00 UTC Reply

Hyperbolae, huh? Wow, that's some old-time humour.... the last time I heard it I was riding on a dinosaur. ;D

Look, girl dude, I understand you by Matt Cipher on 2015-06-16 21:29:00 UTC Reply

Different people have different senses of humour. Me personally, I accept jokes out of everything: Hebrew people, bald people, African-Americans, fat people, metalheads, nerds, mother-in-laws, national stereotypes, et cetera. Because having a distance to oneself is probably the most important thing for me.

I also enjoy logic puzzles, puns, word games and any kind of non-offensive humour.

The point is - if jokes like this are not your taste, simply ignore it. Don't look at the thread and I think you'll be fine :)

Warning: Discussion of Social Issues by TheShyIon on 2015-06-17 05:20:00 UTC Reply

This is slightly off-topic; mostly a response to the "I enjoy jokes about everyone" thing.

I notice that you listed only marginalized groups and loose collections, with no specifically privileged groups.

So the thing is... jokes about marginalized groups rely on harmful stereotypes. This perpetuates those stereotypes -- not on its own, but as a widespread "it's funny, so it's okay" thing. If your jokes are making other people need to have "a distance from themselves," you're asking other people to find it funny when you make fun of them. The most important part of "self-deprecation" is the self part.

Punching up versus punching down, and I didn't see any of the former listed.

Rant over, and I apologize if it was too off-topic.

Fine, I'll say it then. by World-Jumper on 2015-06-17 09:28:00 UTC Reply

White jokes are hilarious. American jokes are hilarious. Straight jokes can be a riot (which is a shame there are so few of them out there) as can wealthy jokes, hipster jokes, and almost any other joke you can think of.

However, what makes those funny? Two things: exaggeration and recognition. Otherwise known as: STEREOTYPES! Stereotypes can be super funny, no matter who it is aimed at. Why? Because we recognize the extreme aspect of the stereotype, and laugh at how outlandish it is. Is every American a fat, dumb hick from Texas, who eats hamburgers and has six guns on them at all times? Of course not! We carry twelve.

Did you chuckle? I bet you did. Now, what makes this so different from "minority" stereotypes? Because white, rich Americans are "privileged?" Everybody has problems Everybody is harmed by negative stereotypes, even the ones aimed at the "privileged." Does this mean we should ban all stereotypical humor? But you yourself said you wanted us to "punch up" rather then "punch down." There is no such thing as "punching up" or "punching down." There is only punching. But slapstick is one of the oldest and most loved forms of comedy, so clearly punching can be super funny!

That said, I do see where you are coming from. There are jokes that do hurt others more then they should. However, the answer to this problem is not shaming everybody into thinking your way. They probably already do. They just see the humor in taking shots at anybody, rather then just the privileged. And if they are enjoying racist or sexist humor because they themselves are racist or sexist, then that is their problem they have to overcome. Address those actions, the truly harmful ones, rather then their choice in entertainment.

Awareness is the answer, and funnily enough, humor is often the way to do it. Those jokes highlight the worst of each other, making us see what is wrong with the extreme ends of society, no mater what your personal privilege score is. Every community can be improved, and it only can be by showing what the problem is. And if laughing at it is one way of it, I see no harm.

Oh, and if some forms of humor offends you, you always have the option of ignoring the comedian who makes it. I have a ton of comedians whose humor I only find crass and cruel. So, because of that, I don't support their humor by not listening to it. I do not think any less of the people who do find it funny, nor the people who make it.

I think you're looking at this from the wrong side. by Huinesoron on 2015-06-17 10:35:00 UTC Reply

I'll take your example:

Is every American a fat, dumb hick from Texas, who eats hamburgers and has six guns on them at all times? Of course not! We carry twelve.

That isn't a joke at the expense of Americans. It's obviously a stereotype, so you don't actually assume it's about all Americans. Equally, people aren't going to look at the topic of this thread and say 'how can you say such things about mothers?'.

What it is is a joke at the expense of people who can be described as:

-Fat
-Dumb
-Hick
-From Texas
-Eats hamburgers
-Likes guns

You're doing the equivalent of saying 'Frodo's so stupid, he could be a dwarf!' and then protesting that it's funny because everyone knows Frodo's not as stupid as a dwarf. Yeah, great - but it's not Frodo who's going to get upset. It's the dwarves you're casting as archetypically dumb.

Another way of saying it: laughing at your stereotype of 'Americans = fat' carries with it a requirement that you agree 'fat = bad'.

(If I haven't made my point clear, please check what I'm trying to say; I'm not sure how well it's come across.)

hS

..Fair enough. by World-Jumper on 2015-06-17 16:31:00 UTC Reply

Break it down, and my analogy does fall apart. I am sorry.

However, how about this, an comedy sketch outlining the decline of America as we see it, taking us down a peg. (The John Oliver bits are the most important.) That is a far better example.

The rest of my point still stands, I think. Do the rich like being attacked as uncaring, money-grubbing old men, who want to hoard as much wealth as they can? There are many, many problems the wealthy have. Why do you think so many of them take up drugs and alcohol? Pure recreation? Not likely. And even if it started that way, why do you think they keep doing it? They have to resources to clean themselves, to break the harmful cycles. Why don;t so many of them? Because they feel the need to resort to chemical alteration to have any form of joy in their lives, of cut-thought business and a loathing public.

Is any of that going to make you stop laughing at jokes about the wealthy living lives too opulent for their own good, so aloof to the problems of the very people they hire? Of course not! Nor should you. That is my point with there is no punching up, nor punching down. Only punching.

Can't let this lie. by Neshomeh on 2015-06-18 14:59:00 UTC Reply

It's bugging me. I only have limited time, so I must be brief, but a couple points:

1. Humor can be used to reinforce the status quo or to challenge it. When the status quo is something ugly, like "it's okay to make fun of fat people" or "black men are criminals," isn't it far, far better to use humor to challenge it rather than just to have a good yuk about it?

2. Being rich means having more power and options in your life than people who are less rich. It means never having to worry about where your next meal is coming from and whether it will even be good for you, or whether you can fix the leak in your roof, or get to work regularly, or dress appropriately, or a million other things that people worse off than me have to struggle with every day. Power may be stressful, but so is living on minimum wage—and that's not getting into being poor while also having the gall not to be white. If poor people can choose not to do drugs and go into a cycle of self-destruction, so can rich people. You're not going to make me feel sorry for people who make bad choices when they have all the power and opportunity in the world to make good ones.

~Neshomeh

I agree, actually. by World-Jumper on 2015-06-18 19:00:00 UTC Reply

However, I do not think I, nor anybody else, has a right to dictate what people can or cannot find funny. That is all I am really trying to say.

No, I am not fond of fat shaming, nor blatant racism. When I hear the harsher comedy, I usually cringe. I much prefer when society is challenged. However, sometimes, the occasional racially charged joke can be hilarious, for many reasons. Heck, South Park is probably the best thing I can point to. They make fun of everybody, while in the end promoting, on the whole, positive social change. If we just say, "you cannot make racially charged humor, ever," that harms not only the freedom of speech, but also social progress. Can it be ugly? Yes. Can it hurt? Yes. But we have no right to tell people they cannot ever make that kind of humor, nor that they cannot enjoy it. Instead, we promote the entertainers that we do enjoy, to spread more good humor and laughs. We do not shame people for laughing.

As for point two, that's the point!, They have all the resources in the world! All the support they could ever want? Why then are they in the throws of such abuse? Am I saying we should start a movement or something? Feel more empathy then for those without the resources to heal? No. However, clearly they are facing serious problems, serious ones that, while they may not be as important as the poor old Mexican woman who can barely feed herself and her eight kids, is no less harmful for the individual. That is the point I am making. If you don't want to be sorry for them, fine. I don't either, really. Indeed, I hold a lot of resentment towards them myself, the money grubbing bastards. The only point I was trying to make is that everybody has problems, things that hurt them immensely. And if we feel OK about ignoring those when we make jokes towards them, can we really blame others for ignoring the problems other groups face?

The freedom of speech is important. That, in the end, is what I am really defending. "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." -Evelyn Beatrice Hall (commonly misattributed to Voltaire)

I also believe in free speech. by Neshomeh (m) on 2015-06-18 20:47:00 UTC Reply

The difference, it seems, is that I believe it certainly does extend to telling people that they should be ashamed when they hurt others, i.e. laughing at overweight people or being racist. Shame is how we learn what not to do to each other. It's very important to feel it when appropriate.

Mind you, you can laugh at whatever you want in the privacy of your own home, no one can stop you, but that doesn't make it right in public (or at all).

South Park, as you mentioned, uses its comedy to draw attention to things that are wrong in the world. This is the humor that challenges the status quo I was talking about. For the most part, if they invoke a stereotype, it's to point out how stupid it is. That's different from just laughing about it. Humor is based in truth, so you can't laugh about something where you see no truth.

~Neshomeh, typing too much on a phone screen.

That is good to hear. by World-Jumper on 2015-06-19 07:34:00 UTC Reply

I'll also be honest, as much as I have been defending people's right to what they want to say and see, there have been times I have questioned people why they enjoyed certain forms of humor, not based on quality, but on how full of hatred they were. This is usually when it crosses the line from humor to hate speech. Where I draw that line seems to be far more forgiving than yours, but rest assured there is one. Most times, they reveal that it is because of the absurdity of it all.

Not all humor is based on truth. Some find insane caricatures of people hilarious. Take the worst possible aspects of stereotype, throw it at a wall and mock the heck out of it. Do I find it funny? No, but my cousins seem to, and one of them works in improving the living conditions of the poor. They say, if anything, what makes them laugh is how wrong it is, both morally and depiction wise. I don't get it, but I do not shame them for it. I have learned to be more forgiving towards what people find entertaining. If they are of a truly prejudiced mind, that will reveal itself in other ways, which I can call them out on with no shame.

Anyway, I think that is all I have to say on the subject. This was an interesting debate, and has given me a lot to think about. I stand by everything I said, but I understand where you and others are coming from. Really, I do. I am pleased to see you care passionately about this subject, even if we disagree on some parts.

Um. by Huinesoron on 2015-06-17 18:46:00 UTC Reply

I disagree with you, but I'm not interested in starting an argument, so I'm going to bow out of this discussion now.

hS

I said I would, didn't I? by Neshomeh on 2015-06-16 21:37:00 UTC Reply

I think my issue is that I prefer my humor to have a point besides casual cruelty.

~Neshomeh

Okay, go ahead, let me have some! :) by Matt Cipher on 2015-06-16 21:38:00 UTC Reply

Entertain me! :D

Sure, put me on the spot. {; P by Neshomeh on 2015-06-16 21:47:00 UTC Reply

Neshomeh is so useless on the spot that they had to invent a special spot-remover just to get her out of it.

~Neshomeh

*blink, blink* I'm sorry if I don't get it... by Matt Cipher on 2015-06-16 21:55:00 UTC Reply

The town I grew up in was so isolated; rock, paper, scissors is considered a high-tech game there.
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:3

Yo mama so stupid... by Iximaz on 2015-06-16 21:19:00 UTC Reply

She sat on the food and ate the chair!

Oh yeah? by Matt Cipher on 2015-06-16 21:31:00 UTC Reply

Yo mama so stupid, she though chicken strips is a strip-club for chickens!

Category: So old... by Matt Cipher on 2015-06-16 21:08:00 UTC Reply

Yo mama so old, Jurassic Park brought back memories!
Category: So fat... by Matt Cipher on 2015-06-16 21:07:00 UTC Reply

Yo mama so fat, her Patronus is a cake!

Yay! by KittyEden on 2015-06-16 23:33:00 UTC Reply

Yo mama so fat, she was sorted into all four houses!
Dangit, you stole mine! by Iximaz on 2015-06-16 21:18:00 UTC Reply

Have a Latin joke.

Yo mama so fat she uses the locative case!

Har-har-har *Sarcastic British Laugh: OFF* by Matt Cipher on 2015-06-16 21:32:00 UTC Reply

Yo mama so fat, she's Mily Cyrus's wrecking ball! :D