Subject: Honestly...
Author:
Posted on: 2015-06-12 21:55:00 UTC
... I don't care what you do with it. ^_^ Just... don't imagine it'll make a permanent difference. In two years' time, we'll have the exact same conversation again.
That's all I'm trying to say.
hS
Now that I have Nesh's attention...
I'm looking at the Agents dropdown, and I notice that the Other Prominent Agents one is really outdated. Only two of them are active, and them very rarely.
Could we bring some agents from the modern PPC to that menu? My first nomination is Rina.
Cuz, you know, popular demand and all that.
On the off chance this does become a regular thing, you guys should know that there are only ten slots in a level three dropdown like the Prominent Agents one. Rina makes nine. There's room for one more before there will also have to be a vote on who to knock OFF the list to make room for a new agent.
~Neshomeh
I selected the agents on that dropdown based on who'd been nominated as Featured Agents in the old system, where they had to be nominated by other people and not self-selected. From that list, I went with ones that represent a wide variety of departments and/or have spin-offs that I feel are particularly worth reading to get a solid handle on the PPC. So, unless y'all wanna come up with some other method of selection that covers those bases and is fair, not so much?
~Neshomeh
Maybe something like:
1) Can't be nominated by their authors
2) Have to have done something noteworthy
3) Get X number of secondary nominations (and the secondary can't come from their author, either.) Something like nine secondary for a total of ten? If they're truly noteworthy, ten shouldn't be hard.
Any other ideas are welcome.
(And ehehe, I'm flattered.)
... all that will produce is a new list now, a couple more in the near future, and then a brand new static and slowly-growing-outdated list.
hS
The agents already listed are, and will still be, well-known in their own right.
... the idea that 'the Other Prominent Agents one is really outdated'?
hS
...'it's missing the newer prominent agents', but not 'no one knows the agents on it, they're not prominent anymore'. Honestly, the only one on there I don't recognize is Fritz Sorgebrunnen. I'm guessing that's because his missions are almost exclusively in fandoms I don't belong to.
~DF
The agents currently listed are old agents.
To me, that makes it seem like the exploits of newer agents don't matter. A lot of agents have risen to stardom since those guys were likely put there.
Plus... not all of the listed agents could really be considered prominent. I'd never even heard of Mara before looking at that dropdown, for instance.
... If people bothered looking at those drop-down lists. I'm somewhat appalled that one of the main agents written by the founder of the Department of Technical Errors, one of the earlier Permission-Givers, originator of the Complete List of PPC Fiction, FAQ For Other People & various other major informational documents, and all-around badass editor, our very own Araeph, isn't big enough to get your attention otherwise. {= P
~Neshomeh
Doing things. Doing stuff.
And yes, Araeph solved world hunger and saved Christmas and conquered the empire of the evil Lemming-Men from beyond the stars and the rest of us are therefore Not Giving Her The Due And Proper Adulation. Araeph was prominent. Araeph did things. Her agents? Not so much; at least, not any more. The fact that I had to look up who Araeph was should maaaaaaybe clue you in to the fact that not everyone does, particularly when her primary fandom is a godawful popcorn movie franchise with two of the three leads having a love story like a six-year-old mashing Barbie and Ken together and the other being a prolonged Keith Richards impersonation by the victim of a serious head injury.
What I'm driving at is that I think the drop-down list should be constantly and consistently updated. People fade from prominence. I'm certain that, in time, Rina will as well. She's active and actively well-liked, her author is a Permission Giver, and she's actually written more missions than Araeph has, so I really don't see what your objection is.
Perhaps I should crowbar a load of new inventions into our next cowrite. We're doing Wabloo Swabloo, so it'll help pass the time between bouts of staring mounrfully out the window, watching the sandbars move in the bay.
I don't know why it was necessary to insult both my fandom and my friend, Neshomeh (the condescending "should maaaaaybe clue you in" implying that she is somehow slow of wit), but I assure you it won't convince anyone here to support your argument further. I am also confused by your attempts to knock me off a pedestal that no one put me on in the first place. Not a soul, to my knowledge, was praising me as the Second Coming or criticizing others for not swooning at my feet, yet you seem to imply that my name is somehow sacrosanct. (Given that I am the resident PPC infidel, that would be quite the accomplishment.)
I am sorry that you view Pirates of the Caribbean as yet another junk popcorn movie. In my opinion, it is remarkably intelligently written and acted, and to reduce Jack Sparrow’s character to a Keith Richards impersonation is to engage the movie on only the most superficial level. While none of the PotC movies are perfect and the sequels are inferior to the first, there is a wealth of characters, lines, effects, myths, and music to sink one’s teeth into. Might I add that what makes a fandom worth protecting is not whether the canon is considered a classic, but whether it has earned our love and respect? There is no hierarchy of PPCing where, say, Lord of the Rings agents are considered to be of a higher caliber than those of Independence Day or The Matrix. To do so would encourage a highly undesirable PPC caste system, unleash a flood of canon hatred as people from less popular fandoms jockey for power by criticizing works higher on the food chain, and, worst of all, invalidate the fan experience of boarders who find value and meaning in less critically acclaimed material. (Though the first PotC, with its 79% tomatometer rating and five Oscar nominations—one of them for the very Johnny Depp performance you derided—does not fall into that category, so I’m afraid you’d still be stuck with it.)
I don’t feel that my agents need defending, so I shall not attempt to do so. I am proud of them and what they have done, and will leave it up to the community to decide whether either of them are, indeed, still “famous.” Since fame was not my objective in writing them, the DTE making the "Prominent Agents" list at all is an unexpected pleasure.
~Araeph
I've been working on a theme park for the last few days that, well, is still basically a bloody builder's yard. It opens tomorrow. It's been... preying on my mind a little, shall we say, and it's made me even more fractious, high-handed and dismissive than normal. I hasten to add that this is not acceptable as an excuse; merely that it is the reason for my outburst.
While I personally think that the list of prominent agents should be more current than its present incarnation (which, prior to Ix's agents being added, contained about two agents who were still around) with something like a Hall Of Fame setup on a dedicated page for older agents who aren't about as much for whatever reason, there was no reason to go into personal attacks. I'm sorry that I said those things, and ashamed of myself for saying them. I'll try to be less of a cow in future.
I wasn't hurt, just exasperated and, as I said before, a bit confused. I also see nothing wrong with a list that includes more current agents, but I do agree with Nesh that PPCers who helped make the organization what it is today still deserve a place of prominence in the list. I'd say the same thing even if it weren't my agent up for debate. But I am an old fogey, so make of that what you will.
~Araeph
I think a two-state solution is probably the best one, but yeah, maybe that's because I'm still comparatively new, having only joined up about 18 months ago with a considerable self-imposed sabbatical in between. Or that I'm kind of an arsehole. =]
I'd just like to say Mara and Isaiah remain, to this day, in my Top Five Favorite Agent Teams list.
Which I think still matter, because they contributed to making the PPC what it is today:
1. Pioneered a new department that was actually a new department, with its own MO, not just another DMS in a new fandom like lots of the "new departments" back in the day. Note that this is not just inventing random new things and shoving them in. This was a whole new concept.
2. Starred in seventeen stories. Yes, a few others have passed this number; most haven't even come close.
3. Officiated at the Sue-Smiting Ceremony. Lots of folks were involved. It was a big deal.
4. Her spinoff is bloody well-written, and she's a good character. I feel like I've heard that this matters somewhere else in this thread.
4.5 It's also responsible for introducing the PPC Crash Dummies, which are staple equipment today. Inventions that actually passed the test of time and stuck around strike me as worth recognizing.
5. Oh, look, her author IS still around. How 'bout that.
I don't object to Rina being added. In fact, I've just done so. I object to the existing members of the list being derided by people who haven't bothered to read them and somehow feel that their ignorance is evidence of something. It isn't.
Also, PotC was extremely popular when it first came out. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean people who enjoy it are somehow less worthy than thou. It's okay to not like things, but don't be a dick about it. Don't be a dick about the things you don't like.
~Neshomeh
Hmm, sinking in prominence, are we?
We'll have to do something about that.
-Araeph
I can honestly say that you are one of the reasons I found the PPC. I look forward to wherever you go with the DTE! :D
Will the DTE be making a comeback? *crosses fingers and smiles hopefully*
Also, take this plate of SPaGhetti as a welcome back gift!
I do have a few unfinished missions to PPC...
Yes, PLEASE!
Also, hi! Feels like I haven't seen you around in a while... although, to be fair, I went on hiatus for a bit myself. How've you been?
~DF
...nah, I won't bore you with that. Lot of changes in my small corner of the world, some of them still ongoing. I definitely have been in PPC hiding, but miiiight just feel like crawling out of the woodwork.
And Supernumerary looked like a cool name, so I picked that as my starting point.
The rest, as they say, is history.
(I did read the rest, though.)
...but, on the other hand, that was back when I first discovered the Board. Basically, there are certainly more agents who can be added to the list, though I wouldn't take off the ones who are there.
Also, I'm now at the point where I feel I'm repeating myself, so I'm going to stop unless I find something new to say on this topic.
~DF
But it's not a bad thing; things change slowly as the community does and I think the wiki should reflect this.
Also, that's only one out of all of them. Anyway, aren't they also up there so that newbies can find some of the most famous agents to check out? All we'd be doing is adding some more, as far as I know.
~DF
... I don't care what you do with it. ^_^ Just... don't imagine it'll make a permanent difference. In two years' time, we'll have the exact same conversation again.
That's all I'm trying to say.
hS
Way I see it, while the list is a great way to see who was a prominent agent while they were still active, half the list hasn't done anything for years and one of them has all but completely retired. I think it might be a good idea to expand that list and bring it a little more up to date.
And so what if we have this same conversation in two years, and again two years after that? It doesn't make the slightest bit of difference. New agents will rise to prominence and old ones will fade. Say, for example, if one of them took down a slew of Legendary Badfics that culminated in a six-part epic that succeeded where at least one previous set of agents failed. Surely that alone would be worthy of inclusion, never mind the fact that they kept going afterwards rather than take the month of accrued vacation time to mainline antipsychotics and sit dribbling by a window while the sky glowed pink.
Agent Rina Dives shows up everywhere, and she shows up in quality missions, and she shows up in quality RPs, and basically? She's exactly the kind of agent we should be promoting. Rina Dives is an excellent character, and all the better for being a prominent agent.
Consider this me seconding Voydymort's nomination.
You seem to be under the impression that both Neshomeh and I are vehemently against adding anyone new to the list. I'm not sure where you got that impression.
My point was that coming up with a detailed nomination process as Iximaz did is pointless, because people won't nominate for long. This isn't just speculation; it's based on two rounds of Agent of the Week which went exactly that way - a few weeks of nominations, and then nothing. To look at it from another angle: what's the process for deciding whether a Mary-Sue should be given a wiki page? We've got one, you know.
So coming up with any sort of nomination mechanism is pointless, because it will not be used for very long. Have a party nominating people on this thread if you like, but don't try and create a lasting system, because it won't last.
That's what I was trying to say. Not 'rar rar Rina sux'.
hS
I took a stab at it because it looked like nobody else had any ideas/suggestions. Plus, "Must be nominated by someone other than their author" and "must have done something noteworthy" doesn't seem like quite enough. Otherwise you'd have just one person's voice declaring who gets to be added when the agent in question might or might not be considered prominent.
(And I thought we didn't have a process for nominating Mary Sues for the Wiki?)
... about ten people seem to think 'nominate her right here' is an acceptable method. ^_~
But no, you're right, and it is a decent method - but what're the odds of it happening outside this thread? A year from now, are you going to read Lacksidacksical's new mission and think 'wow, Agent Tallulah should really be on the Prominent Agents dropdown, I should nominate him'? Proooobably not, because it won't be on your mind. So the list will drop steadily back towards Voyd's 'obsolete'. Which was my point.
(The method I last recall for adding Mary-Sues was essentially the same as the one you suggested for agents - they have to be nominated by someone not their author as being important, and seconded by however many. It's never happened.)
hS
The first, the best, the only!
Rina was my idol even before I knew what the PPC was. She's awesome and Ixi should feel awesome for breathing life into her! :D
Seriously, I just... wow. Ten votes for Rina? It means a lot to me. ;-; Thank you so much.
I'll...whatever number it is...Rina Dives for Prominent Agent. Also seconding what everyone else has been saying. Rina's got a lot of screentime, has had character development and will only continue to get it. As a bonus, she's also been in co-writes and seems to be generally widely read and well-liked. I'd say she deserves to be on that list (though no one tell her, don't want it going to her head somehow...)
~DF
Rina has two Legendaries under her belt and lots of other good missions beside that (barking owl, anyone?) and is a well-rounded, well-developed character.
Vote Rina Dives for Prominent Agent today!
Just to clarify, this is me making this post, on my day off, from my computer. I give many thanks to Ixi for acting as my proxy during Plort and stuff!
Anyway, I've been actively watching Agent Rina's career since her second mission. At this point in time, she's now up to mission 26, with a great deal of characterization along with excellent examples of PPC lore development. In short, the exploits of Agent Dives (both in how prolific her appearances are as well as achievements including the takedown of a notorious Legendary) are classic examples of what the PPC is all about. She is more than worthy of notable status, in my opinion.
It sort of mirrors real life. Sure someone may have been prominent at one point, but was surpassed by someone else. The way the world works is that older generations will be replaced by newer ones. You can always keep the older ones in as sort of a hall of fame. Or alternatively maybe to alleviate that risk just create a "Hall of Fame" for PPC Agents.
So to make this a bit clearer, maybe create a separate entry for the PPC Hall of Fame, where the current community decides what would make the HoF Agents, which I imagine would be what would make an agent a Prominent Agent. You immortalize the former Prominent Agents, while allowing the metaphoric next generation be the prominent ones, then when they cease being active, they can get shifted over to the HoF. Best of both worlds. Just my two cents.
Also I support Rina Dives for Prominent Agent.
Just think! It means that we've got a lot of creativity going on here :)
So yeah. Not all bad :) That's the bright side to it.
~DF
There's fresh blood as well, to be added alongside the already-prominent agents.
Except that I was thinking about five secondary nominations - mainly because I think it's possible that there won't be much interest; I'd say that the number of secondary nominations depends on just how much interest there is in this.