Subject: Huh.
Author:
Posted on: 2015-04-16 14:26:00 UTC
I thought Melkor created dragons in imitation of the Eagles, like the orcs mimic elves and trolls are slipshod copies of Ents.
Yes, I will insist on calling Arda!Satan by his original name. Blame TV Tropes.
So. After I get Gabby and Chakkik's first mission published, I'm going to tackle this monstrosity: Draconic Supremacy.
Aside from the main character having lavender scales *cringe*, she's apparently replaced all of the dragons from the War of Wrath, including the big one himself.
Ancalagon the Black.
Yeah. This will probably require both of my teams.
The problem is, my Silmarillion knowledge is fairly limited. Basically, if it doesn't directly involve Ungoliant, I'm lost.
Thus my request: Would a Silmarillion expert be willing to tag along for the ride and guide my agents through this?
If it were a crossover and you were looking for someone to help you out with the side you don't know, that would make sense, but choosing a fic set entirely in a continuum you don't know well strikes me as a bad idea.
~Neshomeh
Question: why do you want to write this mission? What makes you feel that fic needs your attention, rather than one you know the canon for?
(That sounds aggressive/dismissive, doesn't it? It's not meant to be - it's an honest question. I've never gone 'I want to go into this canon I know nothing about', so I don't know why you would...)
hS
If Voyd wouldn't mind passing the buck on this thing, hS, what if you and I teamed up on it? I was seriously eyeballing it for Derik back when it first came up, only I wasn't sure when I would get to it because I've got other missions I want him to do first... but there's nothing stopping me from writing out of order, and I'm more motivated by co-writing anyway.
I seem to recall there's some dubious geography in it, potentially enough to justify Agent Huinesoron getting involved as more than just someone who happened to be around during the Second Age.
I realize there's a serious risk of us taking five years to get it done, based on precedent, but even so, whadda you say?
~Neshomeh
Agent Huinesoron has a slot open for his first mission in Season 2. And five years is hardly a problem (yet), because I still haven't finished his other co-write, with Lily. I... should get on that, really.
So sure! But only if Voyd doesn't mind giving it up.
hS
And if you want to wait until you've finished the one with Lily, that's fine. I have to finish the one I'm working on with Iximaz, too—and I've got one of Derik's other missions nearly complete, so hopefully I'll be able to get that done in the same time.
Hm, is the co-write with Lily in first person like Agent!hS's other missions? Or, how's that handled?
~Neshomeh
It's only a co-write towards the end, so we can get away with it. How it's working is that she's writing 'hS-voice', and I'm going to edit it all afterwards.
Which... well, we could do that for this mission, or we could do something else. I know J&A seem to have co-written by essentially role-playing the mission, then putting it into narrative after; it'd be interesting to see the same mission from two different narrative voices.
(I've also just chopped half the chapters off the ongoing mission, so I should get it finished in a reasonable time. Compromises!)
hS
I could see first person working—it would be interesting to see my characters from Agent!hS's perspective—but it could be tricky to write. I wouldn't feel confident attempting hS-voice myself, so that would probably end up being mostly you with me filling in what my guys are doing and saying.
How I usually tend to work these days is make a copy of the badfic (in Gdocs for co-writes), go through and make comments on the absurdities and potential plot points for future reference, find an intervention point, then write. For co-writing, there's also a discussion and planning step where we talk about what we want to get out of it for our characters, repeated as desired/necessary. It's helpful to write with both parties in the doc at the same time, sort of like an RP, so trading off can be done easily and naturally. But that could be difficult given time zone issues, especially when I get a new job. Which should hopefully be very soon. *side-eyes the universe, knocks on wood*
I'unno, we'll figure it out. {= )
~Neshomeh
I think the idea of taking it in stages works quite well. So we GDoc a copy of the story, then each go through and... basically low-grade MST it: we each write in-character comments on every line we want our character to make a specific comment. That's your 'absurdities and plot points' step, only slightly tweaked. Choosing an end point will probably happen pretty naturally in there.
Stage two is replies, and trimming out unnecessary lines. We're still basically in MST format at this point. If there's scenes with nothing really said, we designate them to be skipped.
Stage three thus starts with the dialogue basically complete. We then designate the actions, both in the gross sense - to move from the cave to the woods, the agents portal past the scene in the bog - and the small - hS scratches his head at that. Most of the latter probably came in during the first two stages, but this rounds them out.
Throughout, we can also run comments on the side, to help with making decisions on cutting, about things to remember, or any details that don't fall under the above ('hS should be getting more and more worked up during this scene' 'Derik's reaction IMMEDIATELY follows this event').
It's only in stage four that narrative gets written; at no point prior to this do both writers need to be on together. The narrative could be done entirely by one person, or by both jointly - or, which I tried and failed to suggest, by both separately, to produce two accounts of the same mission.
I know, it's a bit strange - but I think it'll drag the mission away from the MST-y style cowrites often slip into. Thoughts?
hS
Ah, sweet, delicious planning and organization. ^_^ I'll grab the fic, then, and send you an invite when it's up in Gdocs.
~Neshomeh
And I'm also eager to see Ancalagon within the PPC.
Draconic Supremacy is all yours!
But only if your agents react with utter awe to seeing the real Ancalagon.
After all, I'm fairly certain the one in the fic is a replacement.
Derik has a healthy respect for all dragonkind, after all. I'm not sure he's quite gotten his head around the possibility of a dragon that actually wants to eat him, but if Ancalagon doesn't drive that point home, nothing will. {= )
Thanks!
~Neshomeh
Agent Huinesoron has capital-i Issues with Morgoth's servants - particularly the fiery ones. Comes from being killed by a balrog. So I think I know how he'll react...
hS
I've always loved truly immense monsters (and yet I haven't gotten around to watching too many kaiju flicks), and Ancalagon is one of the biggest.
I also know enough about Arda lore to know that dragons are, as much as I dislike the concept, Always Chaotic Evil.
I would study the Silmarillion, if only I had access to it.
Who're you calling Chaotic? Ancalagon was a loyal servant of Morgoth; the northern dragons appear to have had a decent society going on; the dragons used to attack Gondolin were highly organised troop transports.
As for evil... well, according to their enemies, sure! Dragons are gigantic carnivores who sit at the top of the food chain; Elves, Men, and Dwarves are their prey. You might as well make noises about how 'evil' the Free Peoples are - after all, they keep attacking the dragons, too. Ancalagon was only defending his home, for one.
What dragons 'always' are is manipulative hoarding carnivores. They play with people as toys - Smaug with Bilbo, Glaurung with Turin's family. They adore gold - probably something to do with being made of metal themselves. And they eat people, because people are the best food. I bet deer see Elves much the same way - y'know, the ones who steal all their land and food, then chase them down with bows and murder them.
Also... it's quite likely that dragons are incarnate Maiar. Which means that they are, one and all, demigods who decided 'that guy who's waging war against the One who created us is promising me a cool tank-body - I'll join him!'. I don't think 'Always Chaotic Evil' as a concept applies when they're volunteers.
hS
On an unrelated note - it's interesting to see all the layers in Tolkien's mythology. Tolkien's frequently seen as being the founder of the high fantasy genre, and I think an unfortunate side effect is that people tend to assume that, because LotR is the originator of several fantasy archetypes, that it works just like the pop culture version (or if you play tabletop RPGs, the D&D version) of those archetypes. But really, it's both more complex and more unique than you might think.
There's always more to it than that.
Netilardo is my Tolkien Trinkets website, where I do exactly that - dig into the details of the Legendarium that people tend to miss. I'm always happy to take questions, too: as Ekyl can confirm (if he's still around), I've repeatedly claimed that there's Always Something To Say about any character in Middle-earth. That's how 'The Deep Places' reached 20 entries!
hS
Unrelated. Are you ready to rumble in Pokémon Showdown?
There, as here, I am Voyd. I usually hang around in Writing or Other Metas.
I tried to send you a message/challenge last night, but I'm afraid we just missed each other.
I thought Melkor created dragons in imitation of the Eagles, like the orcs mimic elves and trolls are slipshod copies of Ents.
Yes, I will insist on calling Arda!Satan by his original name. Blame TV Tropes.
He can twist, absolutely, but he can't create life; that lies solely in the power of the One. Remember it was Iluvatar who gave life to the dwarves - prior to that moment, they were Aule's puppets, and would freeze if he ignored them. Since all Melkor's creatures continued after he was cast out, we know that can't be how they worked.
So orcs were made by torturing elves (or animals, by some accounts) and twisting them through malevolent biology. Trolls... well, we don't have a lot of data there. The term seems to be rather broadly applied. And dragons... whatever they're mocking, it's not eagles. Glaurung the Golden, father of dragons, was not winged. (I really liked the theory that they were ultimately a mockery of the dwarves, actually).
But whereas orcs can conceivably be twisted from elves - what're you going to twist to create fire-breathing giant reptiles? And how do you then further twist it to add wings a few generations on? Add in the fact that the dragons in The Fall of Gondolin are very clearly living machines, and you're left with the conclusion that Morgoth (by that time) crafted metal bodies, and invited Maiar to live in them. Then he kept working on it in successive generations.
Are dragons therefore immortal? I certainly don't remember any mentions of them dying natural deaths... and we know balrogs are.
hS
I'm learning so much today!
While on the subject of Arda dragons, I loved the depiction of Smaug in the Hobbit movies. Dragons are monsters; they are terrifying and frightful, yet awe-inspiring and glorious. To me, they captured that PERFECTLY with Smaug.
I really wish the Tolkien estate would allow Silmarillion movies, but alas. We will likely never see Ancalagon in all his kaiju-riffic glory.
... for being a tetrapod. ;) No front legs! Just wings!
I think Tolkien would have, if not necessarily approved, appreciated the change, as well. The dragons he drew were six-limbed, but also a long way from the Western norm; they were basically snakes with wings and feet. This lovely drawing sticks in my mind, for obvious reasons. So yes, I think Tolkien wouldn't have minded Smaug the Pterosaur.
Also he was cool. ;) Though I missed his jewelled waistcoat.
Ancalagon... I dunno, the idea of him being huge is very close to fanon. As far as I can tell, it comes solely from the fact that the towers of Thangorodrim (=volcano fortress mountain of DOOM, because Sauron was a plagiarist) crumbled beneath him when he fell. Which, okay, maybe - or maybe he was just a fairly ordinary-sized divine-powered dragon. Smaug smashed the whole of Lake-Town to bits when he fell, remember, and that was thousands of years later.
And... why would Morgoth have created a kaiju-sized dragon? What would he be for? Ancalagon was presumably in development from the moment Glaurung was proven a success, so his probable target was the hidden city of Gondolin - Morgoth knew it was in the mountains, but couldn't fly anything over to check because Eagles. A flying dragon would've been perfect - unless it was so huge that it a) couldn't get off the ground, b) couldn't fit out the gate of Angband anyway, and c) couldn't land to attack Gondolin.
No, I don't think Ancalagon was particularly immense. That would make no sense as a weapon - and a weapon is what he was. What I think is that Tolkien had a liking for smashing mountains when things died - remember the balrog of Moria? Yeah. That wasn't very big, either.
hS
The bad feeling that most of the Agents that tackled missions in this continuum are now retired...
Unless... Well... *lights up the 'Huinesoron-signal' and the 'Nesh-signal'*
:D
(Nesh would've had a cup of tea, but that's clearly the Des-signal. So she gets one of the Multiple Explanation Points instead. It was that or a cat - and we don't want to accidentally summon Bast, do we?)
hS
A pencil seems too generic, not to mention it probably wouldn't make for a good silhouette.
(And did you mean to write 'Multiple Explanation Points'?)
Ehm... off the top of my head, how about Roman numeral 'II'? You've got a lot of associations with pairs - half of RinaAndRanda, two usernames, in a Canon PPC Couple, regenerating agent (two bodies), lots of cowrites... and the bunkbed. It's an easy symbol to interpret, and doesn't automatically associate with anyone else.
(Um... of course I did that was totally intentional for reasons which I will explain in a moment hey is that a demonic duck of some kind? [Runs])
hS
And Iximaz, you know what that means.
NOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPE— *runs off screaming*
Hmm... How about a rose with a lightning bolt through it? XD (my phone's autocorrect scares me; it keeps trying to capitalize 'rose'. Meep.)
Ooh, that reminds me: in Plort this June, can we add the Cult of Six Roses to the list of enemies? Their aim was to slander the teachings of Jaikaiar and spread their own messages of cruelty and selfishness to the people of Weab. ^^;
... the Driftwood logo. :(
You can, if you remember. ^_~ You can even right the story of how Lady Iximaz brought them to ruin.
hS
I'm suddenly getting a hankering for an elvish coat of arms. Maybe a yellow rose on a green background? *puppy eyes* Whenever you have the time, of course.
"Heeeeey, there, sweetie... I'm all yo-
"Ewwwww, wait, you're a meat person. Yuck yuck yuck. 'scuse me, I'm going... somewhere else. Fast."
~
I don't know why you'd want a Yellow Rose. ^_~
hS
But no, it's to represent her defeat of the Cult. Iunno about historical heraldry (a quick search on The Google isn't turning anything up) but it seems to be pretty common in fantasy to design heraldry after an important battle. And then I'd like to have it match my English heraldry. And hey, PPC in-joke!
You're a baron, so you get eight points on your design. I don't think the rose petals are pointy enough, but it could have four leaves, for sure. That means you need another point... well, your English design has a pen, but the pen's a bit over-represented. You could have lightning, or I could try to modify the rose to have longer petals... or, well, anything, really. What would you like?
Also: circle or lozenge? Flowers traditionally sit in circles, but that's because in Beleriand, women were required to use the circle. We don't limit it that way, so it's up to you.
hS
They (and the leaves) could be of a darker green than the background so they'd stand out.
And circle, please. :D
Nis green, rena white: canta nastar alta cuna, rose leaves; canta nastar alta, coiled and thorned vines; indil in fore, a yellow rose.
Took me a while to remember how to do the rose.
hS
Seriously, it's perfect. Thank you! Thank you thank you thank you! *offers all the lembas*
...by the time the baronial council next meets, so what the heck? Might as well.
It was shortly after Lady Iximaz was appointed baroness that she learned of a powerful Marizu threat that none had yet dared to confront: a group dedicated to slandering the teachings of Jaikaiar and spreading their own messages of cruelty, malice, and wickedness. They called themselves the Cult of Six Roses.
Enraged by the cultists' activity, Lady Iximaz set sail for Weab, intending to finally put a stop to the cultists' activities on her own. She managed to infiltrate the cult by posing as an acolyte, and she bided her time, sabotaging the cult's plans and causing a small series of troublesome accidents to make their lives more difficult. And when the opportunity to kill the leaders presented itself, she struck.
One by one, she picked off each of the leaders with little difficulty, using a combination of stealth, guile, and dirty tactics in the form of long-ranged sniping. However, the sixth and eldest leader, having discovered the cause of the others' deaths, took precautions against such an attack and forced Lady Iximaz to engage her in close combat. After a difficult fight, Lady Iximaz emerged the victor, bloody and beaten but alive.
Though devastated by the loss of her faithful bow, which had been broken in the struggle, she crafted a newer, more resilient one on her way back to Plort, where she returned triumphant. The tales of her deeds were already being spread throughout the land, and the Cult of Six Roses was soon nothing more than a distant memory.
I really need to reformat the Cyclopaedia - cross-referencing is entirely nonexistent right now. Actually, what I should do is Wikify the whole thing... but that sounds like an objectively terrible idea.
hS
I've read the Cyclopedia so many times I could probably tell you exactly where everything is. By the way, the very first page is missing a link to the Glossary of Terms, which also probably needs to be updated.
(The reason for my confusion was that I was looking under C for Cult instead of S for Six.)
We doesn't like it, precious.
Honestly, the more I ponder it, the more I think a (possibly locked) Wikia would be a good idea. I don't really want people editing it as they please, but being able to read it easily... and possible edit it during Plort Season... I'unno. Maybe.
hS
And again, like I said, my newfound Wiki pseudo-expertise is available to you if you'd like help.
The main problems are twofold:
1/ Pictures have to be individually uploaded.
2/ I have the attention span of a gnat, particularly for projects that I can't do at work.
hS
I dunno why, but I love wading through source-mode when editing. I'm very focused on stuff that interests me, and Plort's right up there with everything PPC related.
And I'm sure we could rope Nesh in on this...
Not in the near future, at any rate.
However, wiki admins can upload multiple photos at once from the Admin Dashboard, so I've saved you a bunch of work just like that. ^_~
~Neshomeh
Not trying to steal your... thunder— *ducks flying objects*
And I already have a plot bunny bouncing around about how she single-handedly infiltrated the cult and killed each of its leaders, and how her bow was broken in the battle against the last and eldest leader. No worries, though, she crafted a new one. ;)
...
...
... Iiiiiii'm seeing a fascist rally led by the pink/purple/blue one at the back there. Tell me that's not what you're going for.
hS
The pony in the back is Starlight Glimmer, a unicorn who thinks that having special talents separate people, and causes conflict. She removes ponies cutie marks (and, subsequently, their special talents) to make everybody equal.
She even has a song explaining her philosophy!
Basically the motto of the town was 'uniqueness brings unhappiness' and that all ponies were equal but some ponies were more equal than others. Anyone who didn't conform (like the Mane Six) were locked away until they agreed I let their Cutie Mark be taken from them.
So it's the other 20th century analogy. I was close!
(Also: until they agreed you let it be taken? I didn't know you were a villain!)
hS
