Subject: Thank you (nm)
Author:
Posted on: 2015-04-11 22:09:00 UTC
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IÂ’m persistent, and terribly slow. (Workshop 4A) by
on 2015-04-02 14:18:00 UTC
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Since the Workshop Promotion Thread dropped off the first page, here we go again.
My Homework, Final Version
Caution! I will try to keep this family friendly, but the source is rated M, and we may need to talk about trivialization of sex, violence, murder and child abuse.
I skimmed through some of the stories on the unclaimed badfic list for reasons, selected a fic.and took notes, on the second read-through.
Now fleshing this out with respect to the agents’ actions (third and fourth read through).
The actual Outlines and Notes part is in the responses, because otherwise it’s too long.
My thoughts
I fail, because I didn’t write the required rough scene.
No, of course I don’t fail. Some of your methods just don’t work for me. I considered writing a scene at several points, but it always felt like a distraction from tasks that were more important at the time, not like it would help in any way. And if I tried to do it now, I wouldn’t bear leaving it unfinished and would end with writing the whole mission. But I don’t totally dismiss the idea. One example is not enough; it may work better with differently structured badfics, so I may try it again.
On the other hand, this outline is much more detailed then your example (actually longer than the badfic) and I may already have done half of Workshop 4B. Partially is this due to an attempt to make my notes understandable for others than myself. But I also realized that writing everything down helped me to clarify my thoughts, and to see aspects I would have missed if I had tried to keep it all in my head. I will keep doing this, although future outlines will probably be shorter and less comprehensible.
I also realized that writing directly into a copy of the badfic may be better to pinpoint where the agents’ actions go. But then, with longer badfics and shorter notes, there might be too much badfic between notes. Again, one example is not enough. I may need to do some experimantation.
HG -
Very nice, very thorough. by
on 2015-04-08 13:19:00 UTC
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First off, I apologize that it took me so long to respond. I've been busy as of late.
I'm glad you were able to take some lessons from this exercise, even if my suggestions weren't as helpful as I had hoped. But that's how it goes. A lot of writing is ultimately subjective; people adopt the strategies that work best for them. I've never been a huge fan of the "writing notes into the badfic" technique (which Nesh also mentioned way back when), but I can see how it would work for others.
Awesome job. Keep up the good work! -
Thank you (nm) by
on 2015-04-11 22:09:00 UTC
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Outlines and Notes Part 1 by
on 2015-04-02 14:21:00 UTC
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[commented for the convenience of readers who didn’t live in my head for the last two years; these expositionary comments aren’t actually a part of the real outline I would do if this weren’t for the workshop.]
Pre-mission
Hieronymus (and Androia’s?) first mission, sequel to First Encounter [which should be fleshed-out and ends with a BEEP]; or may start with fleshed-out version of "First Encounter”.
Wide-eyed "veteran" Androia Avatar [She has the advantage of having been a warrior and healer fighting demons in World of Warcraft before she was snatched out of the game. She may even have gathered some experience in training missions, if I find co-writers for these. But since she never did anything else, she is still trying to figure out what life, free-will and everything is about.]
Over-confident rookie Hieronymus [He pretends to remember everything he read in the archives, and to have seen everything that’s there. But he has no idea how it really feels to leave his reading chair and go on a mission to fight the Mary Sues.]
Neither is prepared to lead the team. [Androia was not designed to be a team player and she never made an important decision on her own (except joining the PPC, but even then she might have been talked into it). She doesn’t know how to lead. Hieronymus should have seen the reports of her training missions in the archives, where she probably mentioned that she hates the guy who manipulated her whole life in World of Warcraft. If this didn’t happen, he is at least not the jerkass of the badfic games and can imagine (non-capital "i") how she feels. Anyway, he believes that telling her what she should do would not help to win her trust and that actually only telling her that he is her creator would be worse.]
BEEP! Hieronymus checks Intelligence report, summarizes the fic’s first paragraph and suggests going in as random inhabitants of Hogsmeade. Androia agrees, programs Disguise Generator.
Mission: Breaking the Loop
(Numbers in parentheses refer to paragraphs of the badfic.)
(1) Decision: Skip, already summarized in pre-mission.
After the battle of Hogwarts, mourning in the Great Hall. Half-sentence flashback to Hermione kissing Ron, then scene shift to Harry lying on his bed.- I’m not sure how much this will throw the agents around until they realize that this just establishes Harry’s POV and we have seen his thoughts about the situation. [May bring some dynamic into a story mostly located in the dormitory, and Hieronymus’ reaction might be funny. But it doesn’t do much for the rest of the mission. Hieronymus’ first experience with such effects should be saved for another mission.]
(2 – 5) Enter the agents. Hide under Dean’s bed.
Harry and Hermione had left the Great Hall and went to their respective dormitories, but they cannot sleep, so Hermione visits Harry and occupies Ron’s bed. They chat for a while. Just before they doze off, an old woman appears in a bright silver light.- Hermione should be in the Great Hall with the Weasleys? Actually, the canon chapter ends with Harry, Ron and Hermione in the Headmasters office, Harry contemplating to go to bed, and to ask Kreacher to serve him a sandwich in the dorm.
- H. and H. cannot see the agents arriving, but since "Rose" is a Sue, the agents should hide before she appears. Under a bed across the room from Harry and Ron’s beds? Dean’s bed, identified by the Westham United poster?
(6 – 9)
The Sue identifies as 143 years old Rose Weasley and claims that she used Hermione’s "notes to get back" in time because she wanted to talk to her parents.- No idea what this means. Did Hermione leave her daughter notes about time travel?
- H. and H. are on the floor (rolled off their beds), wands drawn. Sue sits on Harry’s bed (She may or may not be facing the agent’s hiding place, depending on the layout of the dorm, which has not been described in canon, nor in the badfic. Pottermore, movies(?) and common sense suggest that the beds are arranged with bed-head at the wall of the circular(?) room and foot pointing to centre of room. My attempts to visualize H and H and the Sue’s positions and moves don’t make sense.
- The badfic may suppose that the beds are lined up along the wall, H. and H. rolled off the sides of their respective beds towards the room’s centre, Sue is sitting on the side of Harry’s bed facing the room’s centre, Harry is in front of Sue and Hermione somewhere at his side. This layout doesn’t make much sense, because it doesn’t leave much space for windows, lockers and the like between beds, or it leaves an unnecessarily wide empty space in the centre of an unreasonably big room.
- Actually, in this scenario it would have been better to stay on the beds, just drawing wand, rather than rolling off towards the potential danger (although it’s not entirely clear where the bright silver light appeared).
- The agents may experience a transformation from what they expected to what the badfic supposed, when the word world realizes that common sense is not applicable. [I would try to draw maps, but learning how to post them here is too tedious.]
(10 – 14)
Rose-Sue begins with the Weasley-bashing and claims that Harry is her father. She talks in breathless run-on sentences, and this spills over to the narrative.- Reread check: was the narrative this way from the start? It starts bad and becomes worse.
- How does this affect the agents? No idea, actually. There is not much narrative anyway, and playing with the badly defined environment is more fun,
- Also, a misspelled Horcrux’s (meant to be plural) may give the agents something to do while they hide under the bed.
- The room may still be a bit twitchy, unsure concerning its size and layout.
- H and H sit now on either side of the Sue on Harry’s bed.
- The agents try to get C-CAD readings, but the C-CAD doesn’t work (explained later).
(15 – 16)
Rose-Sue gets an armchair to sit now facing H and H on the bed, then announces that H and H will not like what she has to say.- She conveniently turns her back to the agents now.
- The word world may decide to fill the room’s empty centre with a table and some assorted chairs never mentioned in canon.
- Since Rose-Sue never turns to look at what’s behind her, the agents may leave their hiding place whenever it’s convenient to intersperse the sporking with some action.
- Hieronymus will definitely prefer to sit at this convenient table while he writes the charge list.
(17 – 18) I have to quote this:
Harry and Hermione turned to look at each other; nodded and then turned back to listen to what Rose had to say.
"Can you please keep in mind what you just did, that talking with out words..."- Does she imply that Harry and Hermione did this in canon all the time, and that this is a sign of their true love? I thought I know my canon, but I don’t remember a single incident where this happened. (I do remember a scene in the third book where it happened with Harry and Ginny!) Unfortunately the Sue doesn’t quote canon lines I could argue with. Must I now reread the entire seven books to see whether she may have a point somewhere, or can I just charge her with blatantly lying about canon and be right because she doesn’t defend her position?
(18 – 19)
Rose-Sue claims that Harry, after seeing Hermione kissing Ron, was so devastated that he intended to commit suicide by Voldemort, because "he had no more reason to fight", and somehow she holds the Dursleys responsible for this, because Hermione of all people was too stupid and too un-empathic to understand how badly living with the Dursleys had affected Harry.- Canon check: Harry’s thought’s while he walked to his sacrifice. Agent Hieronymus would love to quote them at the Sue, if he finds the time to do it.
- Alas he won’t.
- Is this the place to joke about this version of Hermione having the emotional range of a tea spoon?
(20 – 21)
Rose-Sue claims that Harry doesn’t know how to show love, and that what he feels for Hermione is love, and that he couldn’t stand being touched by people, except Hermione, whose hand he hold every night while she was petrified.- This didn’t happen in CS, so she is blatantly lying about canon. Harry touched petrified Hermione just once, when he took the piece of parchment out of her hand.
(22)
Rose-Sue is foretelling the future now. "In the not to distant future" Rose will be conceived when Hermione and Harry will realise their "real true love" and promptly have sex. Hermione wrote about it in her journals, but she didn’t reveal what caused the big realisation. Harry asked Hermione to marry him. Also, Harry never asked Ginny, somehow she just pushed him into marriage.- Canon check: how old is Rose in the epilogue. I’m sure she should be conceived several years after the battle of Hogwarts. Since this probably doesn’t qualify as not too distant future, Rose-Sue probably isn’t the canonical Rose.
- Obviously Stupid!Hermione didn’t consider that Ron might read her journal and find out that she slept with Harry. But aren’t you supposed to put your thoughts into your diary, not just a plain description of the day’s events? Why didn’t she say anything about how she and Harry realised their "real true love"? (Because Rose-Sue has no imagination and just wants it to happen, but that’s beside the point.)
- Since we already established that Rose-Sue lies, I suppose that Hermione’s journals say actually nothing about the big realisation, because it will not happen. But since Rose-Sue exists, something must have happened, so the secret that Hermione doesn’t reveal in her journal is probably that she and Harry had sex and Harry asked her to marry him just because a time traveller had told them that this had to happen because it had already happened.
- Also, I have some problems with tenses in these notes. We may need a Time-Lord to sort this out.
(23)
Further foretelling the future, Hermione, following a misguided sense of loyalty and obligation, will disregard her newly discovered "real true love" and marry Ron anyway, because she already promised and doesn’t want to hurt the Weasleys’ feelings.- Being a Gryffindor, Hermione should actually be guided by honour (she’s a sort of knight, right?), and her sense of honour might misguide her in a Victorian way. But I can’t blame her for being stupid here. A time traveller told her that she will marry Ron because it already happened in the future, and Hermione is not as stupid as to temper with history. (Time-Lords, help me!)
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Outlines and Notes Part 2 by
on 2015-04-02 14:20:00 UTC
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(24 – 25)
Only days after Rose-Sue is born, Ron will start to beat his wife. Twenty years in the future, the Weasleys will do nothing to stop Ron when he beats his wife to death, because, as Molly says it, she’s "just a mudblood and therefore [...] must deserve it". Harry will try to rescue Hermione and will be stabbed by Rose’s evil half-brother Hugo. The Weasleys will make up a story about Harry and Hermione killing each other.-
Defaming Molly! Androia wants to kill the Sue, but Hieronymus insists that they still can’t be sure that she is a replacement.
- At this point, the agents are certainly not hiding under the bed.
- Is Ron’s wife really Hermione? Why doesn’t she hex him to Tibet? Or at least grab her baby and run away? Oh, I forgot, a time traveller told her that she cannot run away, because then the time traveller’s trajeck past will never have happened.
- Isn’t it telling that this starts as soon as the Sue has forced her way into existence, and is now able to warp everybody out of character?
- She must be a very strong Sue when she could do this while she was still a baby. Her strong Suefluence will certainly make H and H defend her when the agents charge.
(26)
Ginny plans to inherit all of Harry’s wealth and not share it with her kids, so she will cast an sterility charm on Harry before she sleeps with him, and when he is dead, she will send her children, who aren’t Harrys kids, off to their respective fathers.- I don’t understand why Ginny even has kids. Why didn’t she cast a sterility charm on herself?
- Maybe she feared that Harry would want a divorce when she couldn’t give birth.
- But these kids will still inherit her wealth when she dies. Doesn’t she fear that they, having grown up in such a terrible family, will become evil and try to inherit early?
- Am I already writing dialogue for my agents?
- Tune the MSTing down and concentrate on the agents discussing plans to kill the Sue? The democratic decision finding process doesn’t work well and the badfics badness is distracting.
(27 – 31)
Rose-Sue brags about how she crossed the Weasleys’ evil plans as soon as she was of age. Presenting evidence that she is a Potter, and memories of the murders, she had the Weasleys arrested, got the Potter inheritance plus all other Knuts Ginny possessed, burned down the Burrow, and was probably somehow responsible for Hugo being found dead in his cell. Just as an afterthought in midst of this raging revenge, she remembers that she was abused ever since her mother’s death, starting when she was twelve and a half years old.- I hope Evil!Ron had read Stupid!Hermione’s journal and knew that the didn't – no, scratch this, I'm not going there.
- Although it’s a good description of the Sue’s hate-full character, I will try to gloss over this section, conveniently ignoring all implications that the Sue was not already of age twenty years in the future, and was actually born about seven years after the Battle of Hogwarts. (But again she cannot be the real Rose Weasley, who is eleven years old at 1 September, Year 17 after Battle of Hogwarts, thus at least fourteen and maybe fifteen years old at 1 January, Year 20 after Battle of Hogwarts.)
- Did Hieronymus bring a weapon, BTW? Why didn’t Androia remind him? One knife (Androia’s) is not enough to keep H and H and the Sue quite while reading the charges. The C-CAD still doesn’t work. Can they trust the neuralyzer?
(32 – 33)
As soon as Rose-Sue has stopped babbling, Harry asks Hermione how one knows that they are in love. Hermione shortly contemplates "to interrogate him later about his treatment at the Dursleys", and, anticipating to hear about terrible experiences, to pay them a revengeful visit, but then makes Harry answer some other questions.- Really? This is their reaction to the bloody story they just heard? They show no empathy for their abused child?
- It seems unbelievable that Hermione is so clueless about Harry’s family, but since I don’t remember when exactly in canon Harry told her about his experiences with the Dursleys, he may only have told Ron. [Further research required. Reread at least Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s Stone?]
- Is there a way to catch the Sue alone? Portal her to the basement of Malfoy Manor, where she can’t disapparate?
- Reading ahead, she is probably on a strict schedule and will vanish at a given time, short after confirmation that she is a Replacement. Will removing her from the dorm break the temporal connection or will she vanish anyway before she can be charged and killed. [Since we don't know anything about her method of time travel, I cannot think of any techno-babble that would make this sound plausible in either way. Better don’t try.]
- And will the RA even work, when the C-CAD doesn’t?
- Of course Agent Hieronymus remembers reports from agents who had no problems with technology at Hogwarts, but he doesn’t believe everything he read. They must have cheated in some undocumented way.
- The SEP field? It’s a lie. How would an SEP field generator work at Hogwarts?
(34 – 41)
In an awkward dialogue, Hermione makes Harry confess that she is the first person he thinks about in the morning, and the last person he thinks about in the evening, and the person whose happiness is more important than his own, and for whom he would die without hesitation.- How often were we present when Harry woke up or went to sleep, read his thoughts and didn’t see any of these?
- Was this meant to be romantic?
- Agent Hieronymus has a backup plan. Find some spellotape, or Imagine (capital "I") it. There is certainly some spellotape in the drawer of Dean’s bedside cabinet, left over from when he spellotaped the Westham United poster to the wall above his bed; and the bedside cabinet is at the bed-head, which is – uh – over there. [The scene should be sufficiently undefined and wobbly to make this work, and it’s certainly not a special ability; other agents have done something similar.]
(42)
Actually, Harry believes that he did already show Hermione that he would die for her without any hesitation.- Now Agent Hieronymus would like to quote Harry's thoughts from DH 34 to Harry. He didn't die solely for Hermione, and she didn't even take the first place.
- Assassination plans may need to be shifted around for better pacing.
(43 – 44)
Then Hermione and Harry begin to make out, and Rose-Sue tells them to "save all the sex stuff until three months today at eight thirty in the evening please".- So realizing your "real true love" doesn't require immediate sexual activity, and this is all about doing it at the right time so that the Sue will be conceived! She is clearly only there to ensure her own existence by talking Hermione and Harry into having sex at the right time.
- Unconventional assassination method: Just neuralyze Hermione and Harry when this is over. If they don’t remember when they should do it, and that they should do it at all, Rose-Sue will never exist, thus being proactively assassinated.
- But when do we read the charge list? And I'm not sure whether the neuralyzer even works at Hogwarts. (This shouldn't be too easy.)
- Ha! Confirmation that she is conceived three months after the Battle of Hogwarts. Since somebody conceived six years before they were born obviously cannot exit, Agent Hieronymus may be able to talk her out of existence. After all, the sharp sword of reason is his preferred weapon. She is certainly too old to be the canonical Rose Weasley!
- Or too young. But I intended to gloss over the section that confirms the late birth date.
- I know that we shouldn't interact with canons, but maybe Hermione and Ron can just be talked out of following the time traveller’s advice by some random people who don't mention the PPC. Is it also possible to convince them that they should never mention this encounter? At least Hermione understands how dangerous timey-wimey stuff is, and Harry will listen to her. Pretend to be Unspeakables from the DOM's time branch?
- Confusing detail discovered at third read: Hermione had launched herself at Harry, who should still face Rose-Sue, but Rose-Sue pokes Harry, not Hermione, in the back, and then both Harry and Hermione turn to look at Rose-Sue.
Androia tries to open a portal below the Sue’s feet, but the RA doesn’t work.
(45 – 49)
Since the Weasleys and the Dursleys weren't enough, Rose-Sue now bashes Dumbledore and Snape and the names of Harry's sons. Then she realizes that she is at "the turning point", implies that Hermione didn't get her parents back from Australia, and vanishes.- Now I understand Harry and Hermione's non-reaction to Rose-Sue's story. It's the Suefluence. She is on a strict schedule and had to rush this to make all her points before her time is over and she returns to the future.
- And again she lies about Dumbledore forcing Harry to stay with the Dursleys because of some stupid prophecy that was not true and about the way Snape got his Dark Mark. Get these on reading ahead?
- If the agents didn't read ahead, they will be taken by surprise, and above-mentioned unconventional assassination methods may become necessary.
- Actually, they did read ahead, but it doesn’t help.
- Dramatic climax: In the last moment, Hieronymus throws himself at the Sue and hefts the charge list to her robe. It isn’t his fault if she doesn’t read it, right?
- Afterthought: Make Androia heft the charge list to Rose-Sue’s robe; she is younger and more agile. Hieronymus may be forced to utter a command at last, because there is no time to explain his plan.
(50 – 63)
Hermione confesses that all her answers to the questions she asked Harry would be him, Harry proposes, Hermione agrees to marry him, but insists that their children will not be named Albus or Severus. They decide to tell Ron later and go to sleep in one bed, but certainly not indulge into any sexual activities. Next morning, they break up with Ron and leave for Australia, "where they would make sure Rose was concieved again."- I don't understand why they expect to stay in Australia for at least three months, but this may be convenient.
- I don't like to introduce semi-canonical sources, but I'm sure that Harry doesn't have the time to accompany Hermione to Australia and stay there so long. There are still Death-Eaters to be rounded up, the Auror bureau needs every experienced and trustworthy fighter and Harry, Ron and Neville will certainly not shirk the duty. So this thing doesn't even need to be PPCed, because it wouldn't work anyway, and Rose-Sue will never exist.
Replace (50 – 63) by proactive assassination: Introducing himself as a mere patrolman whose name doesn’t matter, Agent Hieronymus explains to Mister Potter that he cannot accompany Miss Granger on her journey to Australia, because Kingsley Shacklebolt needs every possible help to round up the Death Eaters, and thus will soon demand Harry, Ron and Neville becoming Aurors. This breaks the Sue’s stable timeloop and establishes a new stable timeloop. Since Harry wouldn’t shirk the duty, he cannot be present when the Sue should be conceived in Australia, thus she will never exist, couldn’t travel back in time and has never been there.
While Harry and Hermione discuss the patrolman’s announcement, and the possibility that he might be with some future Time Police rather than the Magical Law Enforcement Patrol, and the fact that the time traveller actually never presented any evidence for her story, the Suefluence diminishes, Hermione realizes that she would have preferred Ron’s company on her voyage anyway and leaves for the Great Hall to be with the Weasleys.
[This prospect actually frightens me. Am I able to write Harry and Hermione slowly returning to be in character? Or will they both just sound like me? (Androia sounding like me when I try to be polite and articulate is not a big problem for the present. Hieronymus created her as an idealized, younger, genderbent version of himself.) So there may be a cheating alternative: The agents leave early, not watching H and H’s dialog, but they stay in the common room while Hieronymus explains what he hopes to achieve and Androia calls him out for breaking the rules. When Hermione passes without seeing them, they are sure that canon reasserts itself.]
Post-mission
Nothing. This mission ends on a stealth cliffhanger when canon reasserts itself. Only when the interlude "Trapped in the Wonderful World of Wizards" begins will readers realize that the agents didn’t return from their first mission, and then [SPOILERS: The Explanation for C-CAD and RA malfunction goes here. Basically, PPC-Technology that is not explicitly "Powered by Plotholes" doesn’t work at Hogwarts, as long as Agent Hieronymus, cursed with the Power of Imagination, is present and not convinced that this piece of technology doesn’t use electricity in some way. (Unfortunately Agent Hieronymus is unaware of his superpower, which brought him into the PPC in the first place and, among other, yet undiscovered effects, causes all Universal Translators in his vicinity to leave his German expletives not translated.) Makes-Things may have a solution.] -
Defaming Molly! Androia wants to kill the Sue, but Hieronymus insists that they still can’t be sure that she is a replacement.