Subject: Newbie! *glomp* *poke*
Author:
Posted on: 2015-03-07 17:44:00 UTC
As a present, take this plate of freshly-made SPaGhetti and a barking narwhal. If the purple bow on its horn becomes too much, feel free to remove it.
Have you read the Constitution and the Original Series? Those are basically the only required readings around here.
Got any particular fandoms? I'm a big Harry Potter nut, myself. :)
I'm a newbie, and I just thought I'd go with the suggestions in the wiki and say hi. This looks like my kind of site, that's for sure.
I'm 16, female, and live in Minnesota. I first learned about constructing criticism through a Fanfiction.net member, Lightning of the West. He's a great guy - he gives honest reports, but he does so with all helpful intentions. We beta each others stories under the unwritten agreement that we will always give honest reviews. So please don't be afraid to be honest with me! I'd like to know rather than get in trouble because of ignorance.
Anyway, I decided to join here because, like I said, this place seems right up my alley - populated by haters of the thrice-cursed Sues, as well as grammar, spelling, and all the rest. I'm happy to see a site so dedicated to such a cause. I read the Permission article, and I agree to wait. So if you could give ideas on what do to in the meantime, that would be very appreciated.
And you have a multi-chapter badfic, do you have to stop where the story stops, or can the Sue die earlier if you think you've got enough charges?
But of course, you might have agents stick around for a little bit to find a more opportune moment to strike. And then there are some fics so horrendous that you just feel compelled to spork all the way through.
What are your fandoms? How'd you find out about us? What's the worst Mary Sue you've ever read?
Also, here's some popcorn to eat while you (re?)read the Original Series and PPC Constitution!
Literature: LOTR, HP, Redwall, Warriors
Musicals: POTO, Cats, Starlight Express
Games: Star Wars: The Old Republic
I might have missed some.
I discovered this place through a few mentions of it on FFN, then through OFUs, until I finally came here. So I've been reading spin-offs for a long time without knowing their true source.
Worst Mary Sue? Real book, Bella Swan from the Twilight books hands down. I haven't read that series, and I don't plan to at all. Regarding fanfiction, so far I would say the girl in My Immortal, but I'm not sure yet.
As for Ebony/Enoby/Egogy/Eboby/whatevertheheck Dark'ness Dementia Raven Way... she's certainly bad, but I'd have to say the most Sueish Sue to ever Sue that I've seen is Rose Potter no I don't have problems with her... actually, yeah, Rose Potter. Gawd.
Though Maddie and Terrah were obnoxious; they beat up Voldemort with an umbrella and a baseball bat, and that's just the start of their crimes.
In that he was written by a fifteen-year-old able to muster the same number of uncontested IQ points as an egg and cress sandwich. How on Earth those books got published I will never, ever know - oh, wait, Paolini's parents are in the publishing industry, that explains it.
Bee definitely not in bonnet wrt Inheritance Cycle nuh-uh no sir.
Even published ones. ^_~ Ta.
hS
That said... actually, no. I can't trust myself not to lay into Paolini again, despite how much his terrible, derivative, boring books make me want to with a broken spanner and a bit of old pipe. I'mma go sit in my corner some.
*goes far away from the inheritance cycle*
*twitches*
it watches me, hS. it watches my thoughts.
it's hungry
I read the first book a long time ago. I liked Brom, Saphria, and the witch's/fortune teller's telepathic cat - I've always enjoyed telepathic characters. But the rest of the time was wading through the book in hopeless confusion, because I got lost very quickly and never completely resurfaced. I couldn't follow the fantasy world of the book, or really connect with anyone except the characters above. It had a good start though. The author has a great imagination; the manuscript just needed more tuning.
I actually do like Inheritance, warts and all.
My favorite parts of the series are the things that he clearly thought up on his own, such as the Ra'Zac. Carapace-clad, man-eating demons that metamorphose into gigantic beaked bats? And they're completely undetectable by magic? Christopher Paolini, forget Galbatorix, THESE shoud have been the main villains, because that is both scary and wicked cool.
As SeaTurtle pointed out, George Lucas is the one with the imagination here. Paolini... not so much.
That's pretty much all you need to know. The parallels are staggeringly obvious when you start thinking about them.
...but I'm afraid that OT would turn into what the wiki called "an emergency," which the bosses don't want to happen.
I understand your eagerness to participate in something big; I asked the same question as a newbie. But Emergencies are just a hassle for everyone involved and not really worth it. Why not jump in on the RP below instead?
There's a very lovely link at the top of the page. I'll give you a rundown anyway.
Though there have been changes to the system, it's basically remained the same: the person asking Permission presents agent bios and samples of their writing. It's also preferred the person making the request has been around and has participated on the Board for a while.
Yeah, I'm a PG, but we can't hand out Permission willy-nilly, and especially not to someone who's only showed up today.
Seriously, the Wiki is your friend. Use it.
But I'm talking about RP Permission information being contradictory in two different places on the Wiki. And I am using the Wiki.
*offers SPaGhetti and a smile* You're just trying to get a feel for how things work around here, probably nervous you'll make a typo and everyone will laugh, right? (Psst: they won't.) I remember having that feeling, remember making a lot of blunders when I joined last year, and honestly? I was awful. Luckily, some oldbies showed me the ropes and things went smoothly after that. I promise you'll get your footing within a week.
Speaking of, Sib Houses! I'm trying to make that a thing for good, and I haven't even shown you that! Unfortunately, my current device doesn't make for good linking, so I'll direct you to the Big Sib/Little Sib page on the Wiki.
Also speaking of, that's odd, the contradiction in the Wiki. Any idea at all where you saw that?
If you're looking for a private messaging system, neither the Board nor the wiki has one. Sorry.
However, if the person you want to contact has a wiki account, you can post on their Talk page. For example, here's my user page, and here's my Talk page. You can find an index of wiki users here. Be aware that not all of them are active and that not everyone's wiki username matches their Board name.
Some people list their e-mail address or other contact info on their wiki pages, but not everyone does.
If all else fails, you can just give them a shout-out here on the Board. It might be better to reply to a recent post of theirs rather than start a new thread just to get their attention, though.
Hope that helps.
~Neshomeh
As far as I can see it, you're only allowed to join one, right?
The most up-to-date info can be found here.
I'm stuck between the GIE House and the Two-By-Four House. Both have goals that are equally important to me, and I don't see how I can proceed with some without lacking in the others. Especially since I'm working on a book I hope to publish someday called "The Shadow Heart," and i'll need all the help I can get from both Houses.
Just because you're in one doesn't mean you can't get help from a Big Sib in a different house. Part of the reason they're specialized like they are is so Big Sibs can point Little Sibs in the direction of someone who can help. ;)
Do you mean Grave Energy Initiative?
In that case, just hang on until my new thread picks up. Hopefully someone will volunteer to be a Big Sib and wouldn't mind taking you on as a Little Sib. :)
...so I haven't found my profile or anything like that on the Wiki yet.
The contradictions come from the article "Permission", and from "FAQ: The Board" underneath the question about joining in a roleplay.
I... don't see the contradiction you're talking about. Did you, er, read the whole answer to "Hey, everyone's RPing! Can I join in?" in FAQ: The Board? Because I can see how you might get confused if you only read the first sentence, but if you go on, it's clear that you can jump in without Official Permission.
On navigating threads on this Board, I just added an image to the Board FAQ that should help. Take a look! {= )
Re. your profile on the wiki, you'll have to create one for yourself. We can't do it for you, and they don't just magically appear, ya dig? Or, er, were you talking about something other than a user profile? I might be confused.
~Neshomeh
...you don't need Permission to jump on RPs, unless the OP specifies it. The RP down there does not require it though, in fact I don't have Permission and I'm participating with a planned Agent.
It's in the description of the thread, IIRC.
It's only that at one place, the wiki says you need Permission to join an RP, but in another place, it says you don't. Thus my confusion. I don't remember exactly where on the Wiki those were, unfortunately.
The only complaint about the site I have so far is that it's really hard to follow which threads are the new ones unless you began the thread or posted soon after the thread's beginning. So I'm worried I'll get lost. I'm looking at that certain RP right now and I can't tell where to go.
Can you make up a badfic simply to have your agents go on a mission for it, or is that not allowed?
I just got into an argument with my dad over the intentions of this site. I went and quoted the FAQ For Other People, the Preamble, all of that. The site bothers him because he sees it as a place where only the bad is pointed out and none of the good, where people just get torn down and cruelly mocked instead of built up and encouraged, where the badfic is purposefully searched out and posted on display for the purpose of humiliation. The site members say they have the right because they have elevated above being bad writers, and like the Pharisees they can make fun of others because they no longer write as badly as they used to.
I'm serious, guys. And I'm conflicted. Any ideas on what I could say?
Hi, Silenthunder's dad! So you're a bit worried about what this whole 'PPC' thing is about; I can understand that. It certainly doesn't help that our FAQ For Other People is really old and pretty angry - we've been meaning to update it, but we've got a lot of things we haven't gotten round to yet.
One thing you've mentioned is the idea that we look at the bad, but not the good, in fanfiction, but that's far from being the case. We love to share goodfics with each other, and find something new to read. Even within a bad piece of fanfic, we try to give credit for the pieces which are good - my 'Driftwood' series specifically includes after-mission concrit, and I've taken pains to highlight the good parts.
You've also said you're worried about people being mocked and belittled instead of encouraged. If you find a PPC writer or someone claiming to be from the PPC doing that, please, please let us know! Here at the PPC, we're emphatically not about the author. How could we be? We've never met them, we know nothing about them - and we all wrote badfic back in the day too. We'd like nothing better than to see everyone in the world learn to write well - even if they start out by writing badly! If someone stops writing because of the PPC, that's awful. :(
So why do we seek out badfic and write PPC missions at all? Simple: for fun! It's entertaining to take bad writing literally, and see what weird situations drop out. We've also got a really complex setting in the PPC, which can create some really interesting stories. There's also some aspects of using the missions to explore what makes writing bad or good, but honestly, it's mostly just entertainment.
So are we having fun at someone else's expense? I'd say no. At the expense of their stories, yes, and on the rare occasions when people find out (we're not going around rubbing it in their faces!), they can get upset about that. But at the end of the day, if you're sharing your writing online, you're implicitly suggesting that it's good. The PPC is on the extreme edge of constructive criticism, it's true - but that's still what, ultimately, it is.
I've been writing with the PPC for over ten years now. In that time, I've written missions into my own stories and those of other PPCers; I've had my website brought down by an irate writer; I've made friends and lost them, and vastly improved my own writing; and in all that time, I've never used the PPC to attack any writer. I've never tried to get their stories taken down, never sent them insulting reviews, never for a minute thought of them as anything less than people trying to write the stories in their heads as best they can.
hS
The mention of the Pharisees is a good example, I'd say. Their main problem was hypocrisy, that they would tell people to act one way while acting another. As teachers of the Law, they felt they had a pass to do whatever they wanted, and they were NOT happy when Jesus called them out on it.
I can assure you that the PPC is nothing like that. Normally, I would not bring my faith into something like this, but I feel it might be relevant in this situation. As a follow of of Christ, I would not associate with a group like the PPC if they were bullies of any sort. 99% of what I have seen here is kind, and the people here want nothing more than to help people improve both as a writer or as a person. We do not tolerate any bullying, insulting remarks, or anything that would be disrespectful toward another human being.
This is how I interpret what we do: the basis of fanfic is that a person uses the characters, situations, and locations made by another person and turns it into a new story. In the right hands, this can create something wonderful, something new and refreshing. However... it can also lead to situations where characters are twisted and situations are changed. The original work is desecrated, an insult to the hard work of the original author. All we want is for these original literary works to be respected. If someone is going to "borrow" the work of someone else as a basis for something else, we want to see it treated properly. It's like seeing somebody borrow a priceless painting, hang it upside down, and throw splotchy paint all over it. Our missions are not meant to make fun of the author or say "look how much better we are than you"; they are meant to help an author look at their work from a different perspective so that they can work on improving it. We never intend to offend, and we will never be anything other than helpful towards anyone who wants to be a writer... So long as they are willing to learn. It's all in good fun, and never meant in a malicious manner.
That's my perception, at least. Your mileage may vary.
I'm impressed with your defense. Wonder if I should show this to my dad... Thank you.
That especially bothered him.
We're not vigilante heroes, we're just here to have fun. We don't make it our job to go out and systematically tear down bad fanfiction one mission at a time. We don't tell people whose stories we spork that they need to take down said stories. And the missions are never about the author, they're about the fics. There's a reason why the term 'Author-wraiths' was changed to 'Sue-wraiths'.
If the author is willing to listen to the concrit we have to offer, then great for them! Unfortunately, most react very hostilely to the very thought that their story needs improvement, and that's just with a gentle review, not linking them to the mission (another big no-no). That's why we tend to stay to ourselves.
The purpose of this community, aside from having fun, is to promote good writing by taking something bad (the fics) and turning it into an enjoyable read (the missions) that not only implements good writing, but does so while pointing out what it is about the bad writing that makes it bad.
We don't just spork badfics, we also share goodfics, celebrate fandoms, and promote good writing.
Hopefully this helps a little. :) Unfortunately, my own mom doesn't quite seem to understand either, despite multiple attempts to explain it to her, so... *shrugs* Fingers crossed?
The few exceptions have been parodical in nature, anyway. For the most part, we use real badfic. It's really not that hard to find.
Welcome aBoard! Have some urple-flavoured pancakes. I made them myself! Don't listen to that big lizard thingy trying to warn you not to eat them, they taste really good and he's just jealous of my cooking skills.
Oh, and... Ah, there it is! Here's a "Me" crash dummy! It'll probably be useful if you spork a first-person fic. Be careful, though, I have a small problem which can make me randomly inflate even though no one pulled my cord, but aside from that, I'm still pretty good!
... Oh, drat, I did it again. Hold on, domirossi's gotta deflate me...
There, much better. Sorry about that.
I'm a little cautious to say this, but… Has anyone ever tried to read the nightmare-story known as "My Immortal?" I will now hide.
(Then again, I read C*l*br**n. Not a good idea.)
"My Immortal" edges into the "pretty amusing" territory oftentimes - it's not Rose Potter, or TSAB DOWNFALL, or That Series; it's just plain silly.
There's a reason why it's called Legendary Badfic. It even has its own page.
It's an official Legendary Badfic. We've got a few more cataloged, too.
Good.
Another question: How do you create a spin-off without completely flaming the badfic? Then again, it depends on the content.
Hopefully-not-a-mediocre-answer: blame the Suvian, not the author. It's a simple solution, yes, but the best IMO.
Then again, I prefer to write about a certain non-action Department if you'll excuse the shameless self-promotion so I'm not exactly the most qualified guy to answer.
Do you mean read the spin-offs, or the badfic?
Get a feel for everyone's different styles, and see how they handle the fics. The Number One Rule though? Don't badmouth the author. That's just in poor form.
Yes. We sacrifice the Sue to the Flames... Eh? Eh?
I'm actually thinking I might spork my first fanfic, a Warriors one that was made completely of OCs, and I'm pretty sure the main character, Silentflame, is an Angst!Sue, with the rest as Bit Characters. It'll be nice getting her over with.
Woah... I just realized I have a LOT of Bits...
So… I'm confused about something. What's the difference between claiming badfics and making up spin-offs? Do you take a badfic you looked at and privately make a spin-off off of it?
You basically call dibs on it. Nobody else gets to write a mission about it. You can claim a fic before getting Permission; just make sure to make a note that you don't have Permission yet. If/when you get Permission, you can write a spin-off involving taking down that badfic.
Oooh. Thanks for clearing that up. I have two fanfics I got my eye on. I'm not telling. Hee-hee…
So besides reading spin-offs, what else can I do in the meantime?
Sorry to be blunt here, but you're asking a ton of questions that are easily answered in the PPC Wiki. There's a link in the banner at the top of the Board - like I said, wander around a bit, read some missions! If you have a question that can't be answered there, then come back and ask. We're happy to help in any way we can, but answering the same questions over and over gets old after a while.
Sure, it's a bit slow at times-- but just stick around, chat, and be a part of the community.
That's all there is to it.
Oh, and if you find something that you find interesting, don't hesitate to share it with us and get a discussion going.
Anyway, thanks for the welcome, everybody! It seems I've been reading PPC stories before I joined - I found the ones on the CATS archive, starring Agents Ewkey and Gecka. I enjoyed those tremendously. I found the Fanfiction Universities way before that, starting with the CATS University, then the Redwall one, then the Original LOTR, then the Phantom one…
Oh yeah, I love Redwall, too. I think I forgot to mention that.
By spin-offs, you mean stories other people have written like that, right?
The original series is, well, the original - where it all started. Everybody else writes spinoffs. (I highly recommend Neshomeh's.)
About the shovel question I posted earlier - I'm kind of serious about that one. Would a shovel like that gift make for an overpowered agent?
There is one drawback to brilliant energy weapons: because it ignores nonliving matter, it's useless against undead and constructs. You won't get much mileage out of it in Twilight, for instance, where the most dangerous chracters are undead (strike one) made of diamond (strike two).
Take lightsabers for instance. Are they incredibly useful at killing things? Yes.
Are they cool? Heck yes.
Can PPC agents use them? With proper training, yes.
So what's stopping us from equipping every single agent with their own 'saber? It's a context thing, mostly. Firstly, a lightsaber is a pretty continuum-specific weapon: you'd only find them in Star Wars contexts -- but we're talking about magic shovels here, not energy blades. Secondly, it's a tool. Lightsabers don't win battles by themselves: an agent would have to be pretty brave stark raving mad if they thing they could 1v1 a Suvian who is inherently superior to them in terms of reflexes, strength, cunning, beauty, and singing voice even with a magic shovel. Agents only have surprise and planning going for them and it's an uphill battle all the way.
So: can they use it? Yes. But...
...are you going to make your agents slay Suvians with the lightsaber shovel without having to work for the kill? In that case, I'd avoid using it.
Check out the FAQ on giving agents special powers or gear if you want a more complete explanation.
I was thinking of using the shovel only as a last resort, like there would be a rule for not using it unless absolutely necessary.
Look at it this way: an assassination needs to live up to its name. It's a precise, clean (well, you know what I mean), and professional hit on a target. Confront the Suvian, read out the charge list, distract them a bit, and brain them with the shovel and utter a pithy one-liner as you put on your sunglasses and ride into the sunset while the credits roll. Or something.
If the situation degenerates into a prolonged firefight, somebody's not doing their job right (or you're Playing the Situation for Drama, which is a different case).
Thank you. But what's a firefight?
...something like this.
Linked vid is PG-17 for some video game blood n' violence.
Thanks for the definition.
Let me see here... Read the original series, read the constitution, introduced to the board... Yes, seems everything is in order. Wait... Oh, I'm sorry. We require a pass now, not just a ticket. 
Come back with the proper papers next time.
I'm kidding, I'm kidding. Welcome to the PPC! Drop all preconceived notions, hang your sanity by the door, and have some fun!
I will let C.B. possess me! Don't worry, he's a crazy murdering psychopath caboose, but I've managed to remove the killing instinct. So he's just completely insane and a master manipulator - if you've wronged him! So right now he's his normal, happy, always-helpful self. But still, let insanity reign!
AAARGH! I keep forgetting to put my name in! Sorry!
Everybody makes mistakes from time to time, nah? Don't let it eat you. Here, have this delicious scone to go along with the tea I mentioned earlier.
Well, okay…
"But I don't like tea!"
Sorry, that's C.B. He's picky, not to mention annoying sometimes. Now C.B., if you dare whine again, I will tell Interpol that-
"Aahh! Don't, please don't! I'll behave, I'll behave!"
Good Caboose. Anyway, thank you. Can I call you D. for short?
-Amused-
Another day, another nickname... at least it isn't 'Dresden'.
-Tosses nickname to pile-
I will take that as a yes. Oh, and you can all can call me Thunder for short. I know that one t in the middle of my username can be tricky. People on the Warriors archive add another t because they think it's a Warriors name, which I guess it kinda is, at least there.
For whatever reason, people find my handle hard to type - maybe it's because it's in three parts? (Des-den-delle, FYI.) So I'm getting lots of nicknames and various, erm, shortenings - the aforementioned 'Dresden', '3D', 'desde', 'Des', etc, etc.
BTW, you're putting your handle in the wrong place - it goes to the 'author' field, not the 'subject' field (that's the title of the post).
Though I have to admit that they're paying the Inspector in a very capitalist manner.
Welcome and stuff. Here, have this cup of tea. No, the leaves are not going to try to eat you, what causes you to say that? Banish that thought.
As a newbie welcome gift, here, have a Ring of Waterbreathing!
Also I invite to read the spin-offs (since you have commented in other replies that you have already read The Original Series) of other various writers, they're fun too!
Here you go: a +2 brilliant energy shovel! It passes through nonliving matter, so that Sue wearing full plate may as well be wearing a swimsuit for all the good it'll do.
YEEESSS! I HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS TYPE OF WEAPON! *laughs like C.B. from the musical Starlight Express, an insane character who trusts nobody but himself*
By the way, if I had a future agent use the shovel, would that make them overpowered?
For your Newbie Gift, here's an Automatic Canine Screen-Washer. Just set it by any screen or device, and it will lick the screen clean! ...well, relatively clean. Sort of clean? Oh, never mind.
Anyway, welcome to the community. It's a great one to be a part of! If you're interested in learning more, I highly recommend checking out the Wiki for missions or just general information.
Welcome to the Board! Have some of my world-famous hydrophobic water to commemorate the event. It rubs the lotion on its surface or else it gets blasted out of a hose... or something.
Now, there's no need to rush things concerning Permission: I suggest that you take it easy and just hang around on the Board and chime in on threads and such. Another great thing to do is to read the PPC's Original Series, which is the foundation of this here organization. Afterwards, feel free to check out the Complete List of PPC fiction and read more! Links to both of these things are at the top of the page.
Now get out there and have fun!
Have one of my own shed feathers - careful, it's sharp! Also, may I ask what fandoms you happen to be in? What are your favorite Pokemon? Who is best pony? If you could bend any element, what will it be?
Oh, and to you, Silver: My favorite element… Depends on what you mean by element, how broad your spectrum of what counts as an element is. If you mean the Original Four, i'd say Water or Fire.
And when you say pony, what do you mean?
Though since you had to ask, I guess you're not a brony. Oh, well.
Everlasting Cat, these messages come in fast…
No, I'm not a brony - I already said I'm female - but I don't hate brones or think it wrong that guys like MLP. I say good for them! I'm trying to find a full version of episode 1, Season 1 on YouTube somewhere so I can check MLP out.
Though some do prefer the term pegasister. Do you have Netflix? The show is available there.
((Also, you want to put your username in the 'Author' box.))
Episodes 1 and 2-- the premiere is a two-parter.
You won't find much on YouTube-- they're really proactive about shutting down copyrighted material that pops up on their site.
Thanks. I just realized I misspelled my own username in one of the comments. We have a mini-Broader, everyone!
Hello, teeny little thing!
Well, if 'mini-Aaragog' spawned Aaragog the mini-Word...
... then 'mini-Broader' would spawn Broader!
He's a little on the chubby side. ^^
Unfortunately, as was pointed out at the time, 'Aaragog' would just be a (small) mini-Aragog in his own right, so Aaragog the mini-Word doesn't exist. Nor do <a href="http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?id=199610;article=250401;searchterm=aaragog">his Elvish cousins 'sen' and 'elleths', because it was pointed out that Sindarin typos don't make minis, either.
So does Broader exist? Probably not! Like Aaragog, he'd probably just be a very small mini-Boarder, because mini-Words don't exist.
But if he was a mini-Word, he'd be a cheeky little thing with cat's eyes. ^_^
hS might be silly
As a present, take this plate of freshly-made SPaGhetti and a barking narwhal. If the purple bow on its horn becomes too much, feel free to remove it.
Have you read the Constitution and the Original Series? Those are basically the only required readings around here.
Got any particular fandoms? I'm a big Harry Potter nut, myself. :)
Aww, thank you, all of you! I read about the virtual gifts, but never anything like this! I laughed so hard.
To answer your questions, yes, I have read the Series - I just finished it, found it hilarious! - yes, I have read the Rules and signed my name to it, no, I'm not a Pokemon fan, yes, I love Harry Potter. My other fandoms are Warriors, Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit, the musicals CATS, The Phantom of the Opera, and Starlight Express, and a few other fantoms I can't remember right now.
Whoops, the anonymous person is me, Slenthunder. I didn't know you had to keep signing your name.
The first time I tried introducing myself, I somehow screwed up and my email showed up as the username. By the way, the email thing? Totally unnecessary.
How'd you guess I was about to ask Pokemon? :P What about Percy Jackson? Doctor Who?
To Ix: I don't know about either of those. Science fiction never really caught my fancy, except for Star Wars. And PJ doesn't interest me that much either right now, though I may consider giving it a try.
