One counter-argument I'd like to make!

A question by Desdendelle on 2014-10-11 04:18:00 UTC Reply

Has anyone considered sporking Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality ? I'm eighteen chapters in and I can tell that Harry has been replaced with a massive, massive, massive Stu and - at the very least - Dumbledore is heavily OOC.

Re: A question by november14 on 2014-10-12 09:15:00 UTC Reply

Isn't that listed as a goodfic on the wiki? Should someone go and change that?

Well, I believe it is a goodfic. by KittyEden on 2014-10-12 09:36:00 UTC Reply

I guess it's just differing views.
And Harry gets a lot of character development, and Dumbledore isn't as happy-cheerful-insane as he seems, to put it without giving spoilers.
Oh, what the heck.
SPOILER ALERT
Hermione dies, and Harry has a dark side. Several sides, really.

Points! by Desdendelle on 2014-10-12 15:17:00 UTC Reply

Or rather, arguments. While the concept is interesting enough, the execution is very poorly done. First things first, Quirrel. He's been outright replaced; he simply doesn't act like Quirrel should (which is some sort of falling leaf-ish behaviour) and there's no justification whatsoever for the change.
Then there's Harry. Eleven year olds are not that smart - I've been one and I'm gifted and I'm not that intelligent. Even if he's well-read (and god knows I've had lots of books crammed in my head when I was eleven) he just can't be that sort of Palpatine-order-of-magnitude chessmaster-slash-manipulator. Add to that his ambition of wanting to become god and you have enough charges to execute this guy as a replacement.
Then there's the fact that the fic is a blatant author tract in the style of "Rationalism and Consequentialism are good!" which, in my opinion, is a bad thing to do when writing fiction.

Re: Points! by november14 on 2014-10-13 11:05:00 UTC Reply

You are right... He acts like a robot. Or a Vulcan.
One counter-argument I'd like to make! by Rats on 2014-10-13 04:37:00 UTC Reply

Quirrel really doesn't get much characterization throughout the book at all. We meet him once at the beginning, when he is stuttering and quivering and terrified, and though we see a little of it through the book, it culminates in the revelation that Quirrel really isn't really like that. As far as I remember? It's been a while.
Other than that, I pretty much agree, though that doesn't really stop it from being an engaging read for me. :P

Hrm by Desdendelle on 2014-10-13 10:27:00 UTC Reply

Well, I am somewhat enjoying it despite its faults, mainly because even being a Palpatine-esque manipulator and troll is very OOC for Harry it gets pretty funny at times.

In relation by Storme Hawk on 2014-10-11 12:50:00 UTC Reply

I was just going to start reading the Methods of Rationality when I thought I'd look at the author's profile (it's one of those things I do on FFnet). On there the author has put up a section called "The (first) Three Laws of Fanfiction:" and then launches off with the first rule: " If you do anything to increase the protagonist's power, or make their life easier, you must also amplify their opponent or add extra difficulties to their life. You can't make Frodo a Jedi unless you give Sauron the Death Star. Otherwise, even if it is well-written in all other ways, your story will suck because the reader will know to expect an unending string of easy victories, leading them to neither wonder or care about what happens next. " OK, fair enough. It's the next (and final) sentence that's the whole reason behind this post.
"The Mary Sue is not defined by her power being too strong, but by her challenges being too easily overcome." Personally I don't wholly agree with that, whilst having challenges that she can overcome easily is part of a Suefic, the fact that her powers are too strong is, to me, a definitive part of the character being a Sue/Stu, alongside any uncanonical elements that are bought into the story though the Sue/Stu (Which, yes could also include the power.)
What do you guys think?

Storme Hawk

Re: In relation by november14 on 2014-10-12 09:26:00 UTC Reply

It does not matter how powerful they are, what matters is that how powerful they are in relation to the canon. It does not matter if the character can destroy buildings in one hit, if it is normal for people in that canon. Also, giving power to both sides of the equation when you give power to a character is an easy way to prevent making sues, as it is still difficult for them to win. The main reasons sues are sues is not that they are powerful, but that they seem to to stuff with no effort at all. IE: killing Sauron by pointing at him. Also, I think there is a fic on fanfiction.net about Sauron teaming up with General Grievous from Star Wars, and it is awesome. I think it is called "The Battle for Arda" or something like that.
As I see it... by Desdendelle on 2014-10-11 14:51:00 UTC Reply

Sues aren't defined by their OPness; in fact, some Sues aren't OP at all (relative to the continuum they're contaminating). Sues make things - the canon, their fic, the characters - revolve around them and are, generally speaking, flatter than a cardboard cutout.

:0 by Rats on 2014-10-11 04:47:00 UTC Reply

I. . . have actually liked that fic in the past, though admittedly the last time I gave it a read- I never got more than five chapters in- was middle school. I thought it was an interesting concept for an AU, though perhaps I should give it another look and reevaluate my opinion, haha!