Here is the cast of Cracked: After Hours discussing the following theory: What if Sauron was the good guy in The Lord Of The Rings?

Kaitlyn, if you're reading this, I apologise for any dot-eyed screaming, frothy-mouthed ranting, or having to explain to your children why Daddy has to wear the special white jacket with all the buckles again.

By which I mean from someone who isn't that big a fan of either Tolkien or Martin. Let's face it: the bias for Tolkien on this Board is very high.

That being said, I'm still going to give it to Tolkien. But it was very close. I feel like Martin had overall better lines — I particularly liked his first verse and, later on, the patter line about Tolkien's "hairy foot fetish" — but Tolkien had a stronger base. Specifically, his point about fantasy being, well, fantasy. Part of the reason I stopped reading Martin's books and watching the show is because it was just too damn dark. Good people struggled and died at every turn, while the sinister and the scheming thrived. While Martin had a point about Tolkien's arguably predictable pattern of good thriving and evil failing (at least, in "The Lord of the Rings" trilogy), that's pretty much how it goes in most works of fiction. Because we want it that way.

Some other notes:
— I was hoping this matchup would appear on ERB, with one change: Martin and Tolkien would be interrupted by J. K. Rowling, who in turn would be interrupted by Terry Pratchett. Fantasy author throw-down.
— I liked the detail of Tolkien suddenly appearing on his intro card after taking off the One Ring. I thought it was an editing error at first until I went back and looked more carefully.
— Martin is playing Zork on his computer.

Finally, a bit of fun. Some figures I'd like to see in future ERBs!
— The Marx Brothers vs. The Three Stooges
— Richard Nixon vs. John F. Kennedy
— Henry VIII vs. Elizabeth II (or, heck, Elizabeth I)
— George Carlin vs. Richard Pryor
— Matt Groening vs. Seth MacFarlane
— Avatar Aang vs. Steven Universe

-Various people would argue with the idea that all Tolkien's good guys live, such as every single High King of the Noldor.

-Various people would argue with the idea that all Tolkien's bad guys die. Sauron made a career out of surviving everything that got thrown at him. Seriously:
--Escaped the Valar during the breaking of Utumno.
--Shot by Beren.
--Mauled by Huan.
--(Presumably) punished by Morgoth for that last.
--Escaped the Valar during the breaking of Angband.
--Persuaded Ar-Pharazon to take him prisoner instead of killing him (and used that to take down Numenor).
--Escaped the Fall of Numenor.
--Avoided dying at the hands of the Last Alliance.
--Escaped the White Council at Dol Guldur.

There's others that could be counted, too. And if you argue 'well, he died in the end', then you have to accept that Bilbo, Frodo, Arwen, Beren, and Luthien also all 'died in the end', as a direct result of their heroic actions. Bilbo probably lived longer because of the Ring, but his death came because he let it be destroyed.

Tolkien's works are centred on the very Catholic/Christian theme that paradise, innocence, and bliss cannot be reclaimed once they're lost. Even if you lose them for pure and heroic reasons - Frodo - you won't be able to go home again and pick up where you left off. This ties in with the whole 'fading of the Elves' theme that runs through everything.

To put it another way, Tolkien is about the ending of archetypes. He writes a world where Pure Evil (Sauron, Orcs) and Pure Good (Galadriel, Aragorn) exist - but are on their way out. The remnants of the First and Second Ages are fading. The future belongs to people like Boromir, or Eowyn: people who have their own internal balance of good and evil, not the ones who Just Know what's right. Their villains will be less Sauron, and more Saruman - the angel who fell out of curiosity and pride, not the one who consciously chose to destroy.

~

Also, my assumption is that if GRRM burst into his study and started rapping at him, JRRT would politely wait until he was finished, say, "Hmm," and then go back to writing.

hS

-Various people would argue with the idea that all Tolkien's good guys live, such as every single High King of the Noldor.

-Various people would argue with the idea that all Tolkien's bad guys die. Sauron made a career out of surviving everything that got thrown at him. Seriously:
--Escaped the Valar during the breaking of Utumno.
--Shot by Beren.
--Mauled by Huan.
--(Presumably) punished by Morgoth for that last.
--Escaped the Valar during the breaking of Angband.
--Persuaded Ar-Pharazon to take him prisoner instead of killing him (and used that to take down Numenor).
--Escaped the Fall of Numenor.
--Avoided dying at the hands of the Last Alliance.
--Escaped the White Council at Dol Guldur.

There's others that could be counted, too. And if you argue 'well, he died in the end', then you have to accept that Bilbo, Frodo, Arwen, Beren, and Luthien also all 'died in the end', as a direct result of their heroic actions. Bilbo probably lived longer because of the Ring, but his death came because he let it be destroyed.

Tolkien's works are centred on the very Catholic/Christian theme that paradise, innocence, and bliss cannot be reclaimed once they're lost. Even if you lose them for pure and heroic reasons - Frodo - you won't be able to go home again and pick up where you left off. This ties in with the whole 'fading of the Elves' theme that runs through everything.

To put it another way, Tolkien is about the ending of archetypes. He writes a world where Pure Evil (Sauron, Orcs) and Pure Good (Galadriel, Aragorn) exist - but are on their way out. The remnants of the First and Second Ages are fading. The future belongs to people like Boromir, or Eowyn: people who have their own internal balance of good and evil, not the ones who Just Know what's right. Their villains will be less Sauron, and more Saruman - the angel who fell out of curiosity and pride, not the one who consciously chose to destroy.

~

Also, my assumption is that if GRRM burst into his study and started rapping at him, JRRT would politely wait until he was finished, say, "Hmm," and then go back to writing.

hS

... Okay, Tolkien wins. I just can't take Martin's side seriously while knowing, as I do, that he's a huge Tolkien fanboy. Like, Epic-Lloyd!Martin says something about how "even your names are dumb," and I go "uh-huh, that's why you borrowed a whole bunch of them, right?"

Silly people.

Tolkien's lines about how it's just fantasy and it's supposed to be unrealistic make me sad, though.

Methinks they could have done better with more background research.

~Neshomeh

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Tolkien won this one for me with "every time I battle, it's return of the King."