Subject: Thank you both
Author:
Posted on: 2016-05-04 14:59:00 UTC
That made it much clearer. I suppose I should stop reading them, then, because... Um ... They seem ... Spoilery... And I ... Um... Haven't exactly read The Lord of the Rings. Yet. It's top of my list. Give me a couple months.
--Key
Here is the cast of Cracked: After Hours discussing the following theory: What if Sauron was the good guy in The Lord Of The Rings?
Kaitlyn, if you're reading this, I apologise for any dot-eyed screaming, frothy-mouthed ranting, or having to explain to your children why Daddy has to wear the special white jacket with all the buckles again.
"We don't see Sauron be evil." Just... just keep this claim in mind.
Orcs as "lovable misfits". The shot used is a) of Saruman's forces, and b) literally the Uruk saying 'let's cannibalise our comrade!'.
"Sauron is an underdog... fighting against oppressive foreign forces." Every battle with Sauron except the very last one is one where his armies left Mordor and attacked elsewhere. The only offensive action taken by Gondor is the attack on the Black Gate.
Sauron's a good guy because he didn't want to stay in Mordor. Therefore he went on a murderspree. Let's ignore the fact that the Hobbit movies - since we're talking about the movies - quite clearly show that a) he used to live in Mirkwood, and b) Mirkwood was corrupted by his presence, and was actually quite nice beforehand.
Orcs are a "subjugated class", and "everyone who lives somewhere terrible deserves it". I will grant this one.
"Immortality prevents progress". Yup, pretty sure that's Tolkien's message too. The trouble is a) the elves are no longer a major player by the War of the Rings, and b) Sauron is an immortal who made his chief servants immortal too. #PartOfTheProblem
"When the Orcs march into battle they do it as a big multiethnic team." Again, true! But I'm... pretty sure having allies doesn't make you the good guy, especially when some of them are enslaved.
"Mordor is a rich multicultural stew with a large base of working poor." Well, the multicultural aspect isn't true, because we see those armies marching in shortly before they march out again. The "large base of working poor" part is a valid interpretation of what we see - though Tolkien makes it clear the orcs are slaves, not a working class.
Orcs are tortured POWs > they are mistreated. If America's POWs were formed into an army that attacked the USA and refused to surrender under any circumstances, this would be a valid comment.
Elrond doesn't like mortals (and doesn't want Arwen to die): entirely true of Movie!Elrond, but the fact that you're fighting bigots doesn't make you a good guy yourself.
Thranduil is cruel to Orcs. Yes, he is. He's also cruel to dwarves. Movie!Thranduil is just a generally cruel person.
Lord of the Rings is "fictional white supremacy". Sure, when your movies cast all the people of equatorial island heritage as pure white, and all the Orcs are painted black, you can draw that conclusion. Where's that Racism and Middle-earth article...?
"Sauron makes good points." Yes. He forges them onto swords and sets out to conquer the world. His actions trump whatever moral high ground you could concievably grant him, and his actions are aggressive, violent, world conquering villainy.
So no. I disagree. Are the Free Peoples all sweetness and light? No - they're all isolationists who by and large care only about their own nations (not species - check out Rohan and their dubiousness about Gondor). But Sauron is not a credible alternative.
hS
You just took all the fun out of it.
Although they also did a better job of painting the Jedi as idiots or against Matrix than in this video.
The entire prequel trilogy is a study in hubris, and The Force Awakens confirms what the EU always told us - Luke Skywalker is pretty much the worst at training Jedi students. I mean, heck, in both the old and new canons, his sister's reaction to being told she was Force sensitive was pretty much "eh, thanks, but no thanks".
hS
Always thought that post-Ruusan Jedi order was a fabric of darksiders, or at least should have been one if logic had been followed.
And they were all big on this 'balance in the Force' thing.
Dudes from the film Council, balance means balance, both side equals, not one-sided domination of 'good', or rather, order in a better verse. Duck, the parody understood this better than you.
... by 'balance' they do mean something like 'order'. The Dark Side is a powerful ally is imbalance. So when the Council speak of 'bringing balance to the Force', they mean eliminating the instability of the Dark Side and making everything Light.
The fact that their Chosen One brought things to the point where the Light and Dark had roughly equal (and very small) numbers of followers suggests that they were wrong, of course; but they did have a logical argument.
hS
According to Tolkien himself, two of the three houses of the Edain were in part 'swarthy', and two of the three tribes of hobbits were 'brown-skinned'.
Now I really want to see a properly multiethnic version of Middle-earth, since that's what Tolkien actually wrote about.
hS
By which I mean from someone who isn't that big a fan of either Tolkien or Martin. Let's face it: the bias for Tolkien on this Board is very high.
That being said, I'm still going to give it to Tolkien. But it was very close. I feel like Martin had overall better lines — I particularly liked his first verse and, later on, the patter line about Tolkien's "hairy foot fetish" — but Tolkien had a stronger base. Specifically, his point about fantasy being, well, fantasy. Part of the reason I stopped reading Martin's books and watching the show is because it was just too damn dark. Good people struggled and died at every turn, while the sinister and the scheming thrived. While Martin had a point about Tolkien's arguably predictable pattern of good thriving and evil failing (at least, in "The Lord of the Rings" trilogy), that's pretty much how it goes in most works of fiction. Because we want it that way.
Some other notes:
— I was hoping this matchup would appear on ERB, with one change: Martin and Tolkien would be interrupted by J. K. Rowling, who in turn would be interrupted by Terry Pratchett. Fantasy author throw-down.
— I liked the detail of Tolkien suddenly appearing on his intro card after taking off the One Ring. I thought it was an editing error at first until I went back and looked more carefully.
— Martin is playing Zork on his computer.
Finally, a bit of fun. Some figures I'd like to see in future ERBs!
— The Marx Brothers vs. The Three Stooges
— Richard Nixon vs. John F. Kennedy
— Henry VIII vs. Elizabeth II (or, heck, Elizabeth I)
— George Carlin vs. Richard Pryor
— Matt Groening vs. Seth MacFarlane
— Avatar Aang vs. Steven Universe
1/ Tolkien didn't have a hairy foot fetish. I can say this, because he makes it abundantly clear what his fetish was: long hair. He literally gives elves a racial obsession with the stuff; his wife-insert [what do you call a self-insert of someone else?], Luthien, grows her hair to ridiculous lengths to escape, and wears a cloak made out of it; whenever he mentions hair, it's long; and the early 'Cottage of Lost Play' poem calls out pretty much one feature of Edith: her hair.
Though I thought the line was funny. ;) I'm just pickin' those nits.
2/ Good does not thrive in The Lord of the Rings. Yes, the characters get a 'happy ending' - but then Tolkien literally sits down in Appendix B and explains exactly how all the main characters died (or moved to Valinor), and how all the elves left and then everything sucked.
Middle-earth is, at every stage in its history, a world in decline. The actions of Good serve to slow the fall, maybe even arrest it for a little while, but ultimately, everything fades.
You say 'that's pretty much how it goes in most works of fiction', and that's true - but it's not what happens in Tolkien.
(If you want me to discuss this further, with examples, I will, but I won't chuck any more out unasked-for)
hS
PS: 3/ I didn't notice the things you mention in your Other Notes; I was only watching it quickly. That's pretty cool, though. ^_^ Both thats.
I'm sure I've heard people refer to friend-inserts before, at least. Pretty sure. Like, 83%.
--Key likes that phrase, even if it's not real
-Various people would argue with the idea that all Tolkien's good guys live, such as every single High King of the Noldor.
-Various people would argue with the idea that all Tolkien's bad guys die. Sauron made a career out of surviving everything that got thrown at him. Seriously:
--Escaped the Valar during the breaking of Utumno.
--Shot by Beren.
--Mauled by Huan.
--(Presumably) punished by Morgoth for that last.
--Escaped the Valar during the breaking of Angband.
--Persuaded Ar-Pharazon to take him prisoner instead of killing him (and used that to take down Numenor).
--Escaped the Fall of Numenor.
--Avoided dying at the hands of the Last Alliance.
--Escaped the White Council at Dol Guldur.
There's others that could be counted, too. And if you argue 'well, he died in the end', then you have to accept that Bilbo, Frodo, Arwen, Beren, and Luthien also all 'died in the end', as a direct result of their heroic actions. Bilbo probably lived longer because of the Ring, but his death came because he let it be destroyed.
Tolkien's works are centred on the very Catholic/Christian theme that paradise, innocence, and bliss cannot be reclaimed once they're lost. Even if you lose them for pure and heroic reasons - Frodo - you won't be able to go home again and pick up where you left off. This ties in with the whole 'fading of the Elves' theme that runs through everything.
To put it another way, Tolkien is about the ending of archetypes. He writes a world where Pure Evil (Sauron, Orcs) and Pure Good (Galadriel, Aragorn) exist - but are on their way out. The remnants of the First and Second Ages are fading. The future belongs to people like Boromir, or Eowyn: people who have their own internal balance of good and evil, not the ones who Just Know what's right. Their villains will be less Sauron, and more Saruman - the angel who fell out of curiosity and pride, not the one who consciously chose to destroy.
~
Also, my assumption is that if GRRM burst into his study and started rapping at him, JRRT would politely wait until he was finished, say, "Hmm," and then go back to writing.
hS
-Various people would argue with the idea that all Tolkien's good guys live, such as every single High King of the Noldor.
-Various people would argue with the idea that all Tolkien's bad guys die. Sauron made a career out of surviving everything that got thrown at him. Seriously:
--Escaped the Valar during the breaking of Utumno.
--Shot by Beren.
--Mauled by Huan.
--(Presumably) punished by Morgoth for that last.
--Escaped the Valar during the breaking of Angband.
--Persuaded Ar-Pharazon to take him prisoner instead of killing him (and used that to take down Numenor).
--Escaped the Fall of Numenor.
--Avoided dying at the hands of the Last Alliance.
--Escaped the White Council at Dol Guldur.
There's others that could be counted, too. And if you argue 'well, he died in the end', then you have to accept that Bilbo, Frodo, Arwen, Beren, and Luthien also all 'died in the end', as a direct result of their heroic actions. Bilbo probably lived longer because of the Ring, but his death came because he let it be destroyed.
Tolkien's works are centred on the very Catholic/Christian theme that paradise, innocence, and bliss cannot be reclaimed once they're lost. Even if you lose them for pure and heroic reasons - Frodo - you won't be able to go home again and pick up where you left off. This ties in with the whole 'fading of the Elves' theme that runs through everything.
To put it another way, Tolkien is about the ending of archetypes. He writes a world where Pure Evil (Sauron, Orcs) and Pure Good (Galadriel, Aragorn) exist - but are on their way out. The remnants of the First and Second Ages are fading. The future belongs to people like Boromir, or Eowyn: people who have their own internal balance of good and evil, not the ones who Just Know what's right. Their villains will be less Sauron, and more Saruman - the angel who fell out of curiosity and pride, not the one who consciously chose to destroy.
~
Also, my assumption is that if GRRM burst into his study and started rapping at him, JRRT would politely wait until he was finished, say, "Hmm," and then go back to writing.
hS
That this is a rap battle. Exaggerating perceived flaws in your opponent's work to an outlandish degree is what you're supposed to do. =]
... that it was 'outright lying' than 'exaggerating'.
Also I can't recall something I never knew. ;)
hS
That made it much clearer. I suppose I should stop reading them, then, because... Um ... They seem ... Spoilery... And I ... Um... Haven't exactly read The Lord of the Rings. Yet. It's top of my list. Give me a couple months.
--Key
Yes, that's right, down here... ignore the scaffolding, there's always something under construction in these parts... now hang a left at the wall map... there we are.
Look for the dragon banner under the 'Nutmeg' heading.
hS
In which Agent Dafydd Illian (ret.) talks at length about the lyrics and music of stuff associated with the works of J.R.R. Tolkien. However tangentially.
Also, speaking of:-
Have a band called Nargathrond! The most metal mini-Balrogs ever. =]
... Okay, Tolkien wins. I just can't take Martin's side seriously while knowing, as I do, that he's a huge Tolkien fanboy. Like, Epic-Lloyd!Martin says something about how "even your names are dumb," and I go "uh-huh, that's why you borrowed a whole bunch of them, right?"
Silly people.
Tolkien's lines about how it's just fantasy and it's supposed to be unrealistic make me sad, though.
Methinks they could have done better with more background research.
~Neshomeh
At 52 seconds in, when it cuts to Martin for the first time since Tolkien began, it looks like Martin started reading Fellowship after he stopped singing, and tries to hide it once he realizes he's been caught.
I'm amazed I even noticed that, since I tend to read along with the captions instead of actually watching the video. You can take the book from a book nerd, but you can't take the nerd from a book nerd. Or something.
—doctorlit still thinks Poe vs. King was better
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Tolkien won this one for me with "every time I battle, it's return of the King."