Subject: Re: Oh no, you don't
Author:
Posted on: 2016-04-17 07:41:00 UTC
I would counter that I was not trying to make it about something else. I was saying July has a history of making personal attacks and asking her for a real apology, while unrealistic, is not out of line.
To: Sandra Lara [smlara.console145890as890903av89988.rc454.DOI]
From: Phoenix Socorro [prelief.console559481a341vg19542.rc1963.DIA]
Subject: Are you still alive?
Seriously, I haven't heard from you in weeks. And you've been avoiding me for months now. Message me back or swing by? C'mon, Lara, don't freeze me out.
—'Nix
The top can get modified so we don't end up with a giant set of loose threads, but it's been pretty well dismantled and even if people decided to reply anyways I no longer have the motivation to do so.
I know it's the same person posting but neither agent you've posted under is in the Wiki save for the ICEP address book.
So... if you don't mind me asking, what's going on?
Or at least, hopefully an apology.
I apologize for being so brusque in response; no one on the board deserves that. Des and Iximaz didn't deserve that kind of reply. I should have held off on posting anything until I wasn't as ridiculously tired as I was and actually capable of reacting and responding reasonably; I just hadn't thought that I'd get sledgehammered with two replies in the same minute questioning what was going on, and it caught me off-guard.
Again, I'm sorry.
A proper apology means owning up to what you did wrong and taking responsibility for it.
You weren't brusque. You openly accused Iximaz and Des of ganging up on some poor newbie because that's just how they operate, while at the same time managing to tell Iximaz off for "jumping to overly aggressive conclusions" and "instantaneously suspicious".
Claiming that you were "sledgehammered" by getting two confused messages to your RP thread makes no sense, especially since it's very clear from your answers to both Iximaz and Sergio Turbo, that it wasn't about the number or timing of the messages but rather about the people posting.
I don't know what your problem is with Iximaz and Desdendelle and I don't care. No really, I don't. What I do know, is that Iximaz is leaving now and you can't even cough up a real apology for your attack on her.
I know for a fact that July's apology was sincere. She is absolutely sorry that she a) accused Iximaz and Desdendelle of ganging up on people, and b) did so in such a 'brusque' (to use her word) manner.
The fact that she didn't spell out all the reasons behind her apology doesn't mean that it wasn't honest.
hS
I know July is sincere, and since Iximaz has stated that she's not leaving because of this, we should all let it go at that.
As for the rest, I wasn't going to say anything at all, but I don't think that's fair, so here's my position: I have not and will not engage in discussion with Data Junkie or their friends, because I believe that nothing productive can come of speaking to someone who is not acting in good faith. I gave them the benefit of the doubt in the Prompts discussion. I will do so no longer.
I would like everyone to bear in mind that "but so-and-so acted badly, too!", even if it's true, is not a valid defense of one's own bad behavior, and you should not accept it.
I implore you all: Henceforward, do not feed the trolls.
If you would like my opinion on anything that's been said here in the last couple of days, please feel free to e-mail me. My address should be linked in my username, but if not, it's on my wiki user page.
~Neshomeh
I'm glad to hear it. I'll add that I wasn't trying to stir up drama, I honestly did read her post as much less sorry (if that's the right expression) than you tell me that she was.
I stand by my post. I believe that JulyFlame should apologize to Iximaz and Des for making personal attacks, not just for being brusque. But I will not have you try to hijack my post and make it about something else.
You have a problem with her, take it up with the community at large.
I would counter that I was not trying to make it about something else. I was saying July has a history of making personal attacks and asking her for a real apology, while unrealistic, is not out of line.
I made a post about how July acted in this thread. You then brought up history and made a personal attack on her in general, which was exactly what I was criticising her for doing. And I know you'll say that July was in the wrong and you're in the right, but that's not how it works.
Now everybody is all about defending her from your attacks, rather than looking at what she did and considering whether that apology wasn't rather half-hearted. To put it on another way, you just turned her into the victim.
Look, I don't doubt that you have the evidence you say you have, so please, dig it up and put it forward. I know she herself made a post like that once, so you have every right to do the same.
I am, in fact, in the process of gathering all the evidence I had at one point. Sadly some internet decay has set in and some of it is no longer recoverable. However, July has, amazingly, provided ample logs in which she is blatantly attacking newbies, so it's been slightly smoother going.
You said, somewhere in this morass:
I could just make a sham backhanded apology, blame the person I'm apologising to when they don't accept it, then pull up ancient chat logs and claim there's a conspiracy against me when people call me out on my behavior, but that'd be petty and manipulative, right?
You are, right now, doing the third one of those. Please look at what you're doing and just stop.
hS
For the record, I wasn't even gonna touch the logs until people started asking for proof of what I was saying, and I never said there was any kind of conspiracy against me.
But, y'know, whatever. I forgot that this is the same forum where, when we had someone making homophobic remarks, the ones who got in trouble were the people who said that doing so was wrong.
Hi, everyone who wasn't actually there: Data Junkie is not misinterpreting, or misremembering, or even just shading the facts: they are flat-out lying.
The incident they were referring to with this:
when we had someone making homophobic remarks, the ones who got in trouble were the people who said that doing so was wrong.
Went roughly like this:
-Someone who had previously made homophobic remarks asked for Permission.
-July denied it on the basis of those previous remarks.
-Some people - myself included - said that a single incident was not grounds for summary banning from the PPC.
-Data Junkie's friends objected, and pointed out that there had been multiple incidents.
-Most of the people who had said Jacer shouldn't be banned retracted and apologised.
-Data Junkie's friends continued to harass, harangue, and flame everyone who dared say that anything they were doing was in any way wrong, including flaming. This behaviour continued through a full rewrite of the Constitution forced through by them.
-The one person who dramatically 'left' at that time later returned, and picked up the same pattern of flaming and harassing anyone who disagreed with them on anything, often on the basis of that same thread.
The bahaviour of the people Data Junkie characterises as 'the ones who got in trouble' was enough to nearly cause myself and Neshomeh to leave the PPC. They did cause at least one newbie to quit. The 'trouble' they received in return was Neshomeh asking them to respect the Constitution.
If you want to read the whole thing, it's here in the archives. Go decide for yourself who 'got in trouble' if you don't believe my account. Was it the person who quit the Board over having the Constitution cited at them, or the people who were yelled into silence every time they said anything?
Or if you can't stomach the original thread, go and read this follow-up to see who was 'in trouble'.
Data Junkie is lying. Data Junkie is trolling. Neshomeh and Scapegrace are right:
Do not feed the trolls.
hS
"Data Junkie's friends" weren't the only ones disgusted that you, Nesh and Annabee defended Jacer. Unless you wanna count July among my friends. I mean, sure, I do count a few of the other oldbies (who I am not naming out of respect for their desire to stay out of current board drama) as friends, but I doubt you were referring to them either. In fact I'm pretty sure the "friends" you mean was exactly one person: Tray-Gnome. Who admittedly did flame Jacer, and was admonished for it, but so was everyone else who said Jacer's opinion was bad. And yes, Tray's exit was very dramatic, and yes Tray later came back, but then, if I remember correctly, Tray also left again, because of you this time.
Admittedly, I may be slightly off. I am, at this point, relaying events remembered second-hand and I can't figure out how to read that archive of yours.
Would have been a bit more palatable if you'd apologized for misremembering. We all remember stuff wrong. I've been on the wrong end of arguments because I remembered something wrong.
While my previous posts you replied to with this repetition were... let's go with "snide", this one is literally me relaying events as I recall them.
I'm just refusing to engage with you in any meaningful sense and encouraging others to follow my lead. It doesn't matter if all you're doing is relaying events as you purport to remember them: you're completely, demonstrably wrong, and we've got the evidence to back up that assertion in a Google Spreadsheet you claim a convenient inability to read. You are not arguing from a position of good faith; you are simply here as a malicious gossip.
I say again: do not feed the trolls.
Making repeated groundless accusations like is getting really grating.
Stop. That. Read. The. Ducking. Constitution.
Understood?
Just because things happened before your time, does not mean they never happened at all. It is possible, probable even, that when someone makes accusations about an established member of the community, that have personally seen evidence to support their accusations.
I mean,your word is clearly ironclad and how could I dare doubt something that was told, not showed. Your previous insults seem so trustworthy.
It is possible, probable even, that when someone makes accusations about an established member of the community, that solid evidences are needed.
I'm not getting involved, and I have long since lost track of those chat logs, and I think he's going about this in an utterly asinine way, but he's not lying. That absolutely happened.
(To be fair, the Boarder known as Tray left because they got really upset at Huinesoron for perceived slights. Not because of July.)
If he's so hostile because of past issues, he should have brought them up in a rational and reflected way, without trolling and poisoning every thread. He just sunk any credibility as thoroughly as Ken Akamatsu sunk Negima when his editors began acting funny with his author's rights.
Morever, it is years-old evidences. I hope that people are able to change for the best in such time.
I would also like to believe that people are able to change for the best in years. However, I would note that Data didn't just jump into random threads with July in them and start yelling; he responded to a behavior that he saw as similar to the sort of thing that used to happen in the IRC, four-five years or so ago.
No, I don't think it was necessary. In fact, I'd really have preferred it not happen. And, if it were to be brought up, ye gods do I not want to see those dirt-sucking, bone-grubbing chat-logs again. Ever again. But you may want to be careful what you wish for. They don't really paint anyone who's in them in a good light. July, me, Data, Caddy, Miah, Dann - every one of us comes out looking like a jerk. Data's using the reference to remind those who were around what happened. If you really want a refresher course, I'm sure more than one person has those logs.
But saying "This is a serious behavior problem, and it's been going on for a long time," is not a Constitution violation. Yes, even if the person is "an established community member." July has been gone for years, but was around for years before that - Data is in the same situation. Neither of them has more credibility than the other.
Saying "This person is a jerk and I don't like them" is, a violation, and . . . eh, why am I even bothering? This kind of no-holds-barred everyone-gets-mad drama is the whole reason I stopped posting here. I think I'm done here.
And for showing the sensibility of a rusted nail. I shuldn't have reacted so strongly. It doesn't benefit anyone.
Data, from what you said had reasons for reacting the way he did. I reacted this way because... Well, because I'm an idiot, because recent events didn't sit well with me, and because I wasn't the only one rusted nail around.
I guess indeed that using these logs would be a bad idea. But ... No I should stop going that road.
Again, sorry for you, Vixen. Should have calmed myself a long time ago. Doesn't benefice anyone here.
For one, I was a frequent sparring partner back in the IRC's heyday. For another I personally witnessed her bullying Aster Corbett and Digital Socrates, and was shown logs of her interactions with Bronwyn and her talking about Tray Gnome and melancolicPoet behind their backs. If you like, I'm certain I can dig it all up again. It's not like this is the only community she's done it in either. We've had people from other communities who were interested in joining but refused to when they found out July was a member because they've been a target of hers. Go ask around the Imperium Nova chat and I suspect you'll get a whole mix of reactions about her based on who you ask.
Of course, last time this was brought up as an issue it was dismissed as an "IRC problem" because, as we all know, the IRC is not part of the PPC for real. I figure now that she'd done it on the board, July's behavior was no longer an "IRC problem" but a genuine problem.
If you don't want to help calm things down, don't stir them up further.
Instead of jumping to overly aggressive conclusions and being instantaneously suspicious? Particularly for something part of an entry that dates back years, which implies that the writer has also been around for years.
-July.
But I don't think being confused and asking for an explanation counts as being overly aggressive.
Both you and Des posted in the same minute.
You were both no doubt talking about it the moment it popped into your attention.
You both- and I know how you operate- were probably quite galled at the idea of some greenhorn going and doing such a thing on the board without you knowing whom it was.
I am not impressed.
-July
I, too, was baffled and a little suspicious about someone popping up out of nowhere and RPing with themself, which is not normal, average, frequent, or expected behavior. This is despite vaguely recognizing the agent names, even. I might've said something, too, and I would certainly not have gone digging through the Board archives first even if I weren't at work, especially not the spreadsheeted ones that take bloody forever to load and search through. "Who are you?" and "what are you doing?" are perfectly reasonable questions when the answers are not in evidence. It's also reasonable for more than one person to have and express feelings, even at the same time.
If you know something the rest of us don't, would you kindly enlighten us?
~Neshomeh
Because I'm clearly not rational at the moment enough to be talking with other people. I had an opportunity to upload something I had been working on to the board and I took it, because we're in port, despite having recently finished a 21 hour work day.
For that I apologize. I should have waited or clarified or something.
Either way it's too late now and I'm not going to further airing out dirty laundry on the board when I'm clearly not capable of handling anything with any sense of reasonableness.
I feel like I'm missing something, because as far as my knowledge of English language goes, "if you don't mind me asking" doesn't imply aggression, does it?
From a strictly semantic point of view, disregarding how I feel about any one of you personally, I didn't see any phrasing suggesting "being instantaneously suspicious" either.
So unless it's something personal, I don't think bringing it up here was a good move, July.
Looking at Ix's messages, it looks like she was just confused because someone started posting their agent interactions on the main Board out of nowhere. That'd be confusing to anyone! Assuming that she wanted to put someone in their place or whatever seems to be assuming a lot of malice unfairly. Saying things like "if you don't mind me asking" or "I'm sorry" really don't sound like she's trying to be aggressive, either, it sounds like how you phrase things when you don't want someone to get hurt or insulted.
Go read the Constitution. Really, do it. Now.
I know what I am saying and why.
I was mostly going for "let's point out a pattern of behavior while attempting to not color it with my own personal history with July." So no I was actually anon on purpose.
I won't judge July because I've got far too many misshaps on this Board,and most above all because that's wrong.
Let me be clear dude. You do not duck up this Board for vandetta. Last time I'm being polite here.
Please take back your flames and stop that.
I could just make a sham backhanded apology, blame the person I'm apologising to when they don't accept it, then pull up ancient chat logs and claim there's a conspiracy against me when people call me out on my behavior, but that'd be petty and manipulative, right?
I believe my friend's version of events over yours, a person I barely know who I haven't seen do anything but antagonise and throw their toys out of their pram for... well, one assumes attention. Wow. What a truly unpredictable happenstance that nobody could possibly have foreseen.
I would bring up more points here in July's defence, but it'd be completely pointless to do so because you do not argue in good faith. You are here, as far as I'm concerned, for one purpose and one purpose alone; the character assassination of a dear friend. And you think you can get away with it because she snapped at another dear friend of mine who happened to be one of the most popular people on the Board.
Well, you can't.
I'm not a PG. I don't have any power or pull on the Board. But then, neither do you. You're just a toddler howling on the shop floor because Mummy let someone else ride in the trolley instead. I find your attitude not only repugnant but in active breach of everything in the Constitution, and far, far too reminiscent of the vicious, unpleasant little fishwife I used to be to feel comfortable sharing a forum with you.
And hey, maybe other people are akin to secondary targets as well. I wouldn't be too surprised if getting July's friends angry enough to shout at you because of how you treat her is something you consider an added bonus, because it is a Law of the Interwebs that the person who gets angry loses, regardless of why they're so incensed. If so, you really need to look up the Constitution, mister Agent Of Change. Your behaviour is unbecoming of anyone in this community, regardless of whatever perceived slights July threw your way back before you buggered off, and it needs to stop. NOW.
Sorry to rant, chaps, but this needed to be said. Yes, this whole thing is a mess, but Data's just adding to it.
but saying things like "percieved slights" makes it pretty obvious both how new your are and how willing you are to minimize accusations.
I believe my friend over a troll. This is not a difficult concept to wrap your head around. However, this is the last I shall say on the matter:-
Everyone reading, I implore you. Do not feed the trolls. Do not engage Data, do not engage this most recent anon, just let them spew their vitriol and move on. This has to stop, and it has to be the users who give a damn about the Board and its community who stop it.
Let's leave these pathetic people to their hatred and get on with our lives.
labelling anybody who says things you don't want to deal with as a "troll" is definitely a good way of doing things, instead of assuming they're someone burned by July's toxicity.
Take it from me, kid, you don't know who you're dealing with. You've never had to deal with her talking behind your back, with the manipulation, with the mind games.
And you know what? Maybe you're one of the lucky ones! Maybe you never will have to deal with her shit!
But believe me, if she burns you, you'd wish you'd listened, because there isn't here who'll listen to you. You're just proving it.
just remember that the ppc does not have a good track record of dealing with toxic individuals. may want to do something about that.
You should really read the Constitution again. Here, let me give you the link. You seem to have difficulties for finding it.
Because I think I know those two well enough to say that they aren't evil co-plotting backstabbers or anything of the sort.
Sorry for intruding, but you're quite aggressive here, and I'm curious (as everyone, I guess) to know what's going on with this thread and these characters.
I apologize for that.
But, well, the point is, you've been implying that Iximaz and Desdendelle, two Boarders known and trusted enough to be appointed Permission Givers, decided to deliberately plan to dogpile against someone, with the only proof being a time coincidence and the tone of both their posts being just of confusion.
(In fact, I am rather confused myself about this thread, too. Mind someone in the know explain me what's going on with those ICEP posts?)
I think you owe an apology to the both of them.
But thanks for jumping to conclusions.
What is this, exactly?
To: Sandra Lara [smlara.console145890as890903av89988.rc454.DOI]
From: Phoenix Socorro [prelief.console559481a341vg19542.rc1963.DIA]
Subject: Saaaandra
I'm worried about you, really.
—'Nix
To: Sandra Lara [smlara.console145890as890903av89988.rc454.DOI]
From: Phoenix Socorro [prelief.console559481a341vg19542.rc1963.DIA]
Subject: Oh Saaaandy
Don't make me unleash Grease lyrics on you. I'll do it.
—'Nix
To: Sandra Lara [smlara.console145890as890903av89988.rc454.DOI]
From: Phoenix Socorro [prelief.console559481a341vg19542.rc1963.DIA]
Subject: C'mon!
How much Mexican food is it going to take to bribe you into talking to me?
—'Nix
To: Phoenix Socorro [prelief.console559481a341vg19542.rc1963.DIA]
From: Sandra Lara [smlara.console145890as890903av89988.rc454.DOI]
Subject: Don't be dumb.
Since when were you this needy? And don't you dare Sandra Dee me.
I'm not ignoring you, I'm just stupid busy because it turns out there are way less people who actually know Star Wars than they think they do.
To: Sandra Lara [smlara.console145890as890903av89988.rc454.DOI]
From: Phoenix Socorro [prelief.console559481a341vg19542.rc1963.DIA]
Subject: Then educate me.
Since you disappeared and left me to my own devices. Staring at video of empty corridors in hopes of something happening is boring, don't you know?
Wait, how does that work? Doesn't everyone know Star Wars?
—'Nix
To: Phoenix Socorro [prelief.console559481a341vg19542.rc1963.DIA]
From: Sandra Lara [smlara.console145890as890903av89988.rc454.DOI]
Subject: Patience, padawan.
I'm sorry your job is so easy.
No, they just think they do, because of pop culture and seepage and all that, or maybe they saw at least part of the trilogy featuring Anakin but never all of the old movies or just caught bits and pieces and they filled in the rest because of What Everyone Knows.
So I've been busting my butt since Christmas when we found out a bunch of people Sorting didn't actually know canon. That's on top of the usual workload, not to mention the increasing trickle for HP because of new canon incoming.
I haven't had a caffeineless day in months, HQ time or otherwise.
To: Sandra Lara [smlara.console145890as890903av89988.rc454.DOI]
From: Phoenix Socorro [prelief.console559481a341vg19542.rc1963.DIA]
Subject: Does this make you Yoda?
Someone has to protect HQ.
I never thought about it like that— kinda like how a bunch of agents haven't read LotR but still know enough from exposure because of that fic explosion in the early 00s? And then from the Hobbit films?
And geez, that long!?
Want me to swing by with a Bloffee when I get off?
-'Nix
To: Phoenix Socorro [prelief.console559481a341vg19542.rc1963.DIA]
From: Sandra Lara [smlara.console145890as890903av89988.rc454.DOI]
Subject: Yoda, really?
Yes, that long.
We're looking at an explosion just as big or bigger than when the LotR films happened.
And there's supposed to be a side film coming out before the next one for this trilogy, too.
To: Sandra Lara [smlara.console145890as890903av89988.rc454.DOI]
From: Phoenix Socorro [prelief.console559481a341vg19542.rc1963.DIA]
Subject: You're definitely not played by Alec Guinness.
Right, I'll pencil in to expect a surprise Sue or fangirl stampede or something and watch my screens extra close.
Oh yeah, Rogue Squadron or something, isn't it? There's a trailer out.
—'Nix
To: Phoenix Socorro [prelief.console559481a341vg19542.rc1963.DIA]
From: Sandra Lara [smlara.console145890as890903av89988.rc454.DOI]
Subject: Wait what.
There's a trailer out for Rogue One.
No one told me!
To: Sandra Lara [smlara.console145890as890903av89988.rc454.DOI]
From: Phoenix Socorro [prelief.console559481a341vg19542.rc1963.DIA]
Subject: Oops?
Go me?
—'Nix
To: Phoenix Socorro [prelief.console559481a341vg19542.rc1963.DIA]
From: Sandra Lara [smlara.console145890as890903av89988.rc454.DOI]
Subject: I'm going to kill you. (nm)
To: Sandra Lara [smlara.console145890as890903av89988.rc454.DOI]
From: Phoenix Socorro [prelief.console559481a341vg19542.rc1963.DIA]
Subject: Oh frak.
You can't kill me, I'm needed!
—'Nix
To: Sandra Lara [smlara.console145890as890903av89988.rc454.DOI]
From: Phoenix Socorro [prelief.console559481a341vg19542.rc1963.DIA]
Subject: Sandy?
MURDER IS NOT THE SOLUTION HERE.
—'Nix
To: Sandra Lara [smlara.console145890as890903av89988.rc454.DOI]; [all.PPC]
From: Phoenix Socorro [prelief.console559481a341vg19542.rc1963.DIA]
Subject: You can't kill me if everyone else is looped in.
It's not a good idea!
Please don't let her kill me?
—Agent Phoenix Socorro, DIA
To: Phoenix Socorro [prelief.console559481a341vg19542.rc1963.DIA]
From: Terabyte [console741312as100001q31325.rc7787.DIA]
Socorro,
If personal safety is your concern, then I belive that the Department of Finance's offices would be a safe place to hide as they are used to dealing with agents that are less than satisfied with their salaries. In fact, I believe their doors have recently been reinforced, if that is any comfort to you.
As for appeasing Agent Lara, I recommend dispensing a link to said trailer and bribes in the form of foodstuffs.
-Terabyte