Subject: I will no longer be taking part in this conversation.
Author:
Posted on: 2016-04-08 20:45:00 UTC
I don't think getting this upset and worked up is worth my time.
If anyone else feels like making changes to the Permission process, fine, go ahead, have fun. I don't care.
hS, out
So, I got my permission roughly four years ago, and I haven't done anything with it. Not a single mission or short story about my agents in that time, despite me trying. I just noticed the rules for permission have changed from "prove you can write well" to something slightly more complex, and I'm wondering, do I need to redo my permission request?
Does anyone know why the permission rules were changed specifically to what they are now? I was talking about the changes with a few other older (now infrequent) members and they mentioned the changes feel like they went from "show us how you write" to "prove you can write the way we want". A couple of them even said they're pretty sure they wouldn't have permission if they had to write under the new rules and I am in the same boat, because I am terrible at prompted writing, I failed literally every writing prompt assignment I had from middle school all the way to the SAT, despite maintaining the highest English average in the state.
I'll happily acknowledge that I want Permission-seekers to prove they can write missions I want to read, or at least don't actively not want to read.
Also, it's pretty much always been half the point of Permission. As explained in the Permission article, under "Why Do I Need Permission?":
When you are writing about your agents and HQ, you are borrowing the world that was created by Jay and Acacia. They specifically requested that spin-off authors use their gadgets, follow their naming system for new stuff, include jokes and references, and try not to contradict PPC backstory. This has since been interpreted to include generally keeping to the spirit of the Original Series. Permission ensures that people who want to write a spin-off actually want to write a PPC spin-off—one that satisfies the above requirements—and not to make up something completely different. (Making up something completely different is cool, but calling it "PPC" is not.)
So, yeah. As far as I'm concerned, you got it!
D'you suppose being unable to write from a prompt also extends to not being able to write within the parameters of a mission, and/or the set conditions provided by a badfic? 'Cause if so, that sort of makes the prompt system a great test of whether or not someone can actually write missions, too.
~Neshomeh
So this is up here because it isn’t answering to a specific post; it’s my thoughts about the whole thing.
The main issues are actually addressed on the Permission Article and the Prompts Document: “Cheating is not encouraged, but the PG’s won’t ever know” and “Suggested lengths aren’t hard limits, but the PG’s have lives outside the PPC” (not in these exact words).
Part of being a PPCer is knowing what should and what shouldn’t be taken seriously; e.g. if canon says that you cannot kill Aslan, you just can’t, but if Gary Stu claims you can’t defeat him, because he is immortal, it’s a challenge to work around this limitation and defend canon anyway. I’m not sure whether somebody who doesn’t know how to work around limitations that aren’t even malicious, but meant to help, is ready to seek Permission. But since I don’t want to see potential wasted, a hint for thickheaded Permission-seekers may be in order:
“If you absolutely cannot do it in any other way, grip the prompt that fits best for a starting point and do with it whatever you want, as long as what you want to do is letting your agents experience the PPC. If this isn’t what you want to do, why are you even here?”
Maybe this should be the answer to one last Permission FAQ? But to be absolutely certain that I got this right, I would like to know whether the PGs can agree to the following:
Link, if needed.
There are two new questions (the current 3 and 6), and I've altered the wording and expanded on 4. Does anyone have further suggestions or concerns?
~Neshomeh
It's possible to have troubles with prompts without having an emotional opinion of them.
--I really hate writing from prompts. Is there another option?
--I really have trouble writing from prompts. Is there another option?
If you can't write from prompts, then you aren't going to be able to do missions. There is no difference between "your agents do this" and "the badfic does this, how do they respond?"
I don't agree at all with that answer though.
I think that with the random prompts, being able to hold to their spirit and still pick your own scenario will give a lot of variety. I think I found one, though.
My concern with the third is this, though: If there's a request whose prompt(s) are excessively long, what's to stop PGs from going "I don't have time to examine this whole thing, let someone else handle it"? And then the next PG to take a look says the same thing, and the next, and the next, until the request has dropped off the front page and out of memory?
Better to say "There isn't an upper word count limit, but please keep it reasonable" to avoid that problem, in my opinion.
"D'you suppose being unable to write from a prompt also extends to not being able to write within the parameters of a mission, and/or the set conditions provided by a badfic? 'Cause if so, that sort of makes the prompt system a great test of whether or not someone can actually write missions, too."
No, I think just the opposite. A promt is something thrust upon you. Sure the current system gives options, but they're still constraining. Writing a mission, on the other hand, is just the opposite. You get to pick what you want to do with a story you pick out, and there are far more options out there. More than we could possibly conceive of. Not only that, but you're not limited to missions. You can do stuff with your agents in headquarters, or on vacation, or whatever.
Not only that, but a few of the people who said they can't write from prompts have done missions, so that kinda also goes contrary to the idea that prompts are a great idea.
There's always been somebody who doesn't like whatever the current system is. You're going "I can't write from prompts" now, but when there weren't any, there were people going "Help, I don't have the slightest idea what to write." Prompts with choice, including a lot of scenarios most people are going to write eventually anyway, was the best compromise those of us who worked on it could come up with. If you think you can improve on it, I'm sure we're all ears.
~Neshomeh
Make prompts an option instead of a necessity? They help out those who need them, but hinder those who find them too restraining, and if you don't want to have to deal with people submitting original fiction or stuff from fandoms outside the big two, restrict it to PPC fiction only.
If so, then I'm all for it.
The restrictions on what non-prompted samples should consist of would be:
-Two samples (to give us a variety of views of your writing & agents).
-400-800 words each (because PGs are actually people too, and don't have the energy to sit through 90,000 words because you felt like it).
-Both must prominently feature both of your agents, and have them interact with each other (because I'm fed up to the back teeth of reading about one agent talking to the Marquis).
-At least one must not be one of the control prompts from the 36 Prompts sheet (because seriously, if all you can think of to write is the everyone-does-it-almost-the-same PPC-procedural stuff, you need to work on your imagination).
-If you produce two non-prompted samples that don't show us what we need to see (one way or the other), the PGs reserve the right to laugh at you uproariously (because we've given you all the help we can, and you decided not to take it).
I'll probably trim that last one out.
Thoughts, people?
hS
I'm game with having this as an alternate system. Throwing away the prompts would be a stupid idea, in my opinion — I think they can be really helpful and I'm reasonably certain I'd have had an easier time getting Permission if they would have been used back when I applied for Permission.
I also generally agree with what Nesh says here.
-If you produce two non-prompted samples that don't show us what we need to see (one way or the other), the PGs reserve the right to laugh at you uproariously (because we've given you all the help we can, and you decided not to take it).
No, I think this should be officially part of it... well, don't get too mean about it. Maybe a hearty "try again after you've worked some more" after you're done laughing.
The prompts are a decent example of the sort of stuff you're looking for. It's just if they won't do that exact thing, maybe they'd do something similar.
When you write a mission - well, if you write a mission - you are writing to a set brief. If you can't do that for a prompt, how are you going to do it for real, so to speak?
Some of the prompts actually seem to dictate a character's decisions and reactions.
The missions themselves are more like role-play. You get a scenario and what your characters do is up to you.
Look, I've done roleplaying. Kind of a lot of it, by now, both over Gmail chat and on Tumblr. I don't know if you've seen them--there are these long lists of RP prompts.
Yes, the missions are kind of like a roleplay, I guess. Instead of one or both RPers deciding on the general plotline, you have the badfic as a rough guide which can be skipped forward in and cut off at a certain point.
However: the prompts are exactly like a roleplay. Look, let's say I was writing RP prompts for PPC characters. I might write something like this:
-Character A has just broken the console. Character B is upset because [they wanted to go on that mission/this is the second time this week!/they hate the Techie who always comes to fix it/they think the console might be sentient/etc]
-Character B has done something to get in trouble with the Sunflower Official. Character A tries to rescue them.
-Characters A meets character B in the Cafeteria.
-Character B comes back from Rudi's to find character A (a stranger) moving into their RC. ((OOC: I would so write this as character A trying to claim character B's room because character B keeps almost nothing in there and so character A thought it was empty, that sounds hilarious.))
And so on.
If you've noticed--these are rather similar to the prompts. They're just written in a slightly different style.
In fact--some of the Permission Prompts, rewritten as RP prompts!
-Character B just hit character A in a food fight. Whoops? (One agent falls to accidental friendly fire in a food fight.)
-It's time to do the Duty, but characters A and B both want to do it! (The agents argue over who gets to do the Duty.)
-Character A and character B desperately need coffee. Unfortunately, it's on the other side of the Cafeteria...and there's a food fight going on. (The agents must navigate a food fight to get to the coffee.)
-Character A thinks character B is a Sue. Character B has to prove they aren't. (One agent is mistaken for a Sue, and has to prove otherwise.)
-Character A and character B are [taking a walk/bored on a mission/hanging out/etc], when they find a mysterious thing. (The agents find a mysterious thing.)
(Okay, so, this is a lot of fun. I also keep wanting to write 'my character' and 'your character', as is another style of RP prompting, but...they both belong to the same author in a Permission request, so I have resisted).
Let's see...my point. Yes.
My point is that, yes, a badfic being used for a mission is rather like a roleplay scenario. It's in a format I don't generally see, but yes, you could call it one, especially when you're cowriting. However, my other point: that's exactly what the prompts are, too! "You get a scenario and what your characters do is up to you"--that's exactly it! Honestly, RP prompts as I normally see them are *more* specific as to how the characters react! "My character meets your character at a coffee shop and can't stop looking at your character's hair." "Your character saves mine from tripping into a lake, and my character insists on doing something in return." You also get things like, "Character A is a barista and character B is the customer they've had a crush on for most of the year", or "Character A is an overworked student and character B is their classmate who just wants to buy them lunch sometime". In fact, rewriting some prompts into RP prompt style made me realize that they're really wide open--I added in 'desperate for coffee' for one of them, and kept trying not to get more specific in the other ones (though I did add some options for where they might be in the last one). If I'd gone more specific, the last one would've read more like, "Character A finds a mysterious object. How does character B react?" or "Character B finds a mysterious object, and character A thinks they should leave it alone." or something.
Basically...apart from style, I don't really see much difference. You can very easily treat these prompts as RP prompts--more easily than you can a mission, IMO, since a mission has the framework of the badfic to keep an eye on. It informs your story in a way that a more general prompt does not. Even an interlude is a bit freer, especially if it's of the sort where your main goal is to have two characters meet--you quite literally choose a setting, a situation, figure out the reason why they're meeting, and go. It can be any length, go in any direction (unless you have a particular goal, in which case you'll probably be trying to stick to that), and include whatever you like. You are the only one guiding it--there is no preset framework of 'this is what is happening in the story they are analyzing which is also the world they're currently in'.
(That's not to say I don't like missions; I do. They just involve a different sort of writing process, to some extent.)
But yeah. Essentially:
-writing RP prompts is *fun*, and I should do it more often.
-missions can be considered to be like roleplay, but the Permission Prompts, IMO, are *exactly* that sort of thing as well, and are actually a lot more general than a lot of the RP prompts out there.
-a prompt can be interpreted in a whole lot of different ways, which, I would guess, is one reason why groups that write using prompts can work despite having different types of writers in them.
There may well be a few that are a bit restrictive; I haven't exactly been through all of them lately, though I have written some short pieces based on some of them (why? Because it sounded like fun--my exact words were probably something like 'why should the newbies have all the fun?'--, and then it turned out to be fun for me, so I kept going. I'll post them sometime when there aren't any current/especially recent Permission requests up--I really did write them for fun, not to be seen as examples or somesuch.) However, a whole lot of them look like regular, rather general (that is, wide open for interpretation) prompts to me. Hopefully I've at least illustrated my point well enough (and maybe entertained with the prompts?) in what's become a long post, even if I haven't changed your opinion.
~DF
Then choose different prompts.
Would it be so terrible if you, oops, knocked the dice off the table with your elbow, forgot which prompt you had rolled, and rolled again?
Sorry, I don't know anything. I'm thinking of maybe asking for Permission myself, though, so this is interesting to me. I'll go back to lurking.
... don't count as scenarios? *confused*
Is more about the creative process. And creative control. Yes we are working in an overall set universe, but that does not need to be restrictive in an of itself. Look at the entirety of fanfiction itself.
I think a good analogy is this the prompts are effectively when a GM railroads an RPG rather then letting it play out naturally. Yes it can still be fun, but not as much as if you had greater control over what you could do. So effectively different styles of scenarios then. Or another way to look at it would be who is in control of the scenario.
With a prompted system the ones who created the prompts are in control, whereas without a prompted system the writer (or players in my stretched RPG metaphor) is in control. Another way to look at it is, the prompts, at least to me, seem to be: not can you write well, but do you fit our cookie cutter mold of what a [PPC] writer should be. And I will say that the fitting the mold is one of the reasons I have yet to seek permission.
I think the real question needs to be what is the purpose of Permission. Is it to show you can write well and won't be hypocritical by going after other works. Or is it to show you fit the mold of what this current group of permission givers think is the proper way to write [for the PPC]
Yes, you need to write well and not be a hypocrite. Yes, you also need to be able to write in a style that works in our quirky, humor-based universe. This has never NOT been the case. Look at Jay and Acacia's rules.
Also, I put to the "I can't write from prompts" side a query:
The four control prompts are things like "the agents meet for the first time," "the agents receive a mission," etc. (At work, not looking it up ATM.) Things that virtually everyone will write anyway. Do you somehow become unable to write these just because they are also prompts? If so, why? How?
And if the answer is no to these, why is it yes to the random prompts?
~Neshomeh
To be fair, part of this is my fault. One of the reasons I can't write for the prompts we have, and why others would find it difficult I suspect, is the length. With how short these samples have to be, something like "the agents meet for the first time" is going to feel awful rushed if I could pull it off at all in the word limit given. Something closer to 2500 word max would probably be better.
Short stories are a special challenge.
In the prompts, there is some stuff that you can skip over, like actually describing the scenes and what the agents do for a living could be boiled down into a few words.
I admit that I was rambling for mine, more worried about trying to hit a prompt than actual good storytelling. Though my sample could be chopped into three pieces and not really suffer even if I didn't polish the edges.
So if you can't convince me you can write in 800 words, what makes you think tripling that will suddenly improve that? All I see it accomplishing is a) making me fed up of reading your samples, and b) giving me more time to spot a dumb mistake that gets an immediate 'no'.
We're not asking you to submit a great work of literature. We're asking for two very brief bits of writing to show that you know what writing is supposed to be. The length has already been increased once - I think I originally set it at either 200-400 or 300-600 - and I would be very loath to see it go up again.
hS
2500 really is not a lot. 800, on the other hand, barely gives room to establish characterization for two full-fledged characters beyond a basic outline of what they're like. The shorter the piece the more rushed and less organic it's going to feel. And honestly if the current PGs are that adverse to reading something shorter than your average high school essay, maybe we should get some new PGs who have more time on their hands?
There's this thing you might have heard of called Real Life. And another thing called Fun.
Fun is not being forced to write the equivalent of a high school essay, and Fun is not having to check something the equivalent of a high school essay. I'm not shy of writing long missions but if the prompts were supposed to be 2500 words each that would have definitely scared me off of the community, or at least asking Permission. I'm sure I'm not the only one.
Real Life also makes things that are not the PPC a priority: schoolwork (hi college with 20-page papers), work-work, family (especially PGs with children), health problems, other leisure activities such as sports or clubs. It would take PGs longer to get around to approving/denying requests that are so long, which is unfair to the person requesting Permission. Asking for new PGs with "more time on their hands" is not only like trying to find a needle in a stack of needles, but also incredibly disrespectful because it seems you're implying the current ones are incapable of doing our jobs over a hypothetical change to the system that, frankly, I'm not too fond of because of the above mentioned problems.
The PPC is supposed to be about having fun and I really don't see how requiring the equivalent of a high school essay is "fun".
I don't think getting this upset and worked up is worth my time.
If anyone else feels like making changes to the Permission process, fine, go ahead, have fun. I don't care.
hS, out
For one: drabbles are a thing. For another: it's not really about the characters as much as it is getting a sense of the applicant's writing style. For a third: if I can manage to get across the character of a mad scientist operating a burger van in less than 500 words to sufficient standard to have it in print, you can do it with a PPC character in 800. And if you can't, when you've been around for considerable longer than I have, well, that's for you to cope with.
And frankly, your comments about getting "new PGs [with] more time on their hands" is just stirring. It is unbecoming. Stop it. If I have to bring up your conduct and say how it is wrong, take note.
I mean, I don't want ninety thousand pages for a Permission piece because I'll die of boredom before I finish it, either, but a hard word limit is meh. I think the rule should be "keep it short", not "800 words are fine, but 801 are the Devil Itself". Another pro of phrasing it vaguely like that is that it helps see when a person has a tendency to ramble too much in their writing.
On the other hand, though, I dislike the implication that the current PGs are lazy. You could have really worded that better. =/
Just for instance, check my first mission. My control prompt extended up to the moment my agents are sucked up in their mission. In my opinion, the words counter suggested is a minimum, and you're perfectly fine doing more. Provided you don't go in the other extreme.
I quote from the prompts doc: "[I]t is more important that you present a complete and well-rounded idea than that you slavishly adhere to word counts."
As I recall, the numbers given are as small as they are because some of us (I think hS was one) were concerned that people might see, e.g., 1000 words and go "Eek, that sounds like a lot! And you want two? I am intimidated by these high expectations!" Or something to that effect. And we were actively trying not to frighten people off. Shocking, I know.
~Neshomeh
Ideally the minimum would be somewhere in the 800-1000 range because I doubt it's possible to do what you need to do with the writing samples in less then that,but whatever.
As for not scaring people off with high word counts, honestly more than being restricted by the badfic they're dealing with, something people have brought up already as a reason to stick with this current system, they are going to have to deal with reading and writing stories well in excess of 1000 words.
They are obliged to read your Permission requests - at least, the PGs are, and they are busy people who do not want to sit through and concrit a few 2500-word pieces of semi-original writing.
I think you've completely missed the point of the Permission process as it stands, and since the Board is a nice place I'm going to assume Hanlon's Razor is in effect as to why, so let me break it down for you. The Permission prompts, as they stand, are to get a feeling for how you write. Yes, you can and should put in characterization for your agents, but it's secondary to how well you can put words in a pleasing order. It's short because the PGs don't want to wade through a river of liquid arse, and I'll thank you to stop insulting them for having that entirely legitimate concern. Recall that long-winded descriptions, meandering sentences, and a general inability to shut up are both common traits among inexperienced writers and something we charge for.
So please, and I know there's sod-all chance of you listening to this but it has to be said, just bloody stop. Even if you genuinely had no idea about how the new Permission system worked and were curious about it, it doesn't affect you. You have Permission! As far as I'm concerned, it's permanent! None of this is in any way relevant to your ability to write PPC spinoffs! So, and I say this with the greatest possible respect, shut up moaning.
Christ, this is like zdimensia all over again. Only she was definitely serious.
A quick trip through some older posts turned up this. hS does a better job of explaining it than I can.
That actually doesn't explain how we got where we're at. Like, at all. In fact in that post, hS says he was against agent profiles, despite that being in the rules still.
This one. It helped for me.
We switched to prompts because people were tired of fandoms they didn't know? That's kinda lame. I mean, I got my permission based on what was originally original fiction. It's not like there were any canon details to check them against.
Identifying good writing is about more than "does this fit every detail of the original canon", otherwise Twilight and Eragon would be good, because they're internally consistent.
You've... you've taken a literal parenthetical aside and claimed it was my entire point.
But okay, I'm going to assume that was an incomprehensible but honest mistake, rather than an attempt to dismiss my opinion based on deception. Just for you, here's a summary of how and why the Permission process has changed.
Too Long; Misconstrued version:
When we didn't say what people should write, they either gave us old and non-humorous stuff, or complained that they didn't know what to write.
Full, Actual version:
In the beginning there was Jay, and also Acacia. And when folk came before them, seeking to write in their universe, they spake, saying, 'Oh, you wrote that fic about Legolas and Gimli exploring the Misty Mountains! You're pretty good, go ahead.' And lo, the multitudes did write PPC, and it was good.
You wait; time passes.
The applicant approached, and the PG pondered
Saying, 'Seems I don't know you as well as I would.
What have you written?' And the applicant answered:
'My fics are found here; choose what catches your eye.'
And the PG perused fics, and granted their goal.
You wait; time passes.
But a problem emerged as the web moved on:
The PPC's intake wrote less and less fic!
So PGs asked for samples, and Boarders all flailed,
For nothing they had would really quite click.
They showed us old darkfic, they showed us their rhymes,
None of which told us they'd do well in HQ;
We suggested they write a short piece with their agents,
And then they complained we weren't clear what to do!
So we made it quite plain: here's your prompts, write them well,
They'll ensure you don't have to go back and try twice.
No more flailing and writing whatever you think of!
We have given you clear and concise advice!
You wait; time passes.
But there's always a problem, isn't there? I came up with the prompts because people were being told to write PPC samples, but replying with 'I don't know what to write', or 'Can I just give you a scene from my mission?', or 'Here's my story about one of my agents doing something, which will show you nothing about the other one'. Then they got turned down, and had to do it all again, which wasn't fun for anyone. The alternative was that they wrote their agent(s) arriving in HQ, which a) tended to only use one agent, and b) were all the same.
Why were they writing PPC samples in the first place? Because PPCers have stopped being fanficcers. People were giving us 'writing samples' which were five years old, or were written in a genre that didn't tell us anything about how they'd do writing in a humorous setting. (I remember someone trying two or three times with a high-fantasy pseudo-epic.) Your sample, Data Junkie (yes, I'm looking at it), while not overtly comedic, shows off how you can write dialogue, put-upon employees, and scene transitions, and present information that your readers may not know. Many or most samples of the time didn't do that very well.
What do you think caused that shift?
I know that I don't write fanfic because a lot of fanfic communities are too large and complex for me to figure out how to navigate, and because I'm afraid of writing badfic. The PPC, on the other hand, is organized around one easy-to-use Board, where it's easy to have conversations and get to know people, and there's a well-established procedure where people will check to see if your writing's good and give you concrit. So based solely on my own experience, I'd guess that it's because fan culture is starting to go mainstream, so a) communities are larger and more overwhelming, and b) more people are being exposed to the horrors of badfic, even people who aren't very far into their fandoms. Do other people's experiences match up with this?
1/ In The Beginning, the older members of the Board were fanfic writers - Miss Cam, for instance, was famous for OFUM before the PPC was a thing. Nowadays, the oldest (= more aged) members of the Board are in large part people who've been here for a long time. We were fanficcers, but by and large we aren't any more.
(I do actually still write fanfic; it's been a while since I posted anything, though.)
The same can be applied to the oldest (= longest-time-on-Board) members. In the beginning, they were mostly from Miss Cam's OFUM Yahoo group (I believe), which meant they were fanwriters. Now, we're... from the PPC Board a decade ago, and we've changed.
2/ TVTropes. Seriously. For a big chunk of time in the middle, TVTropes was the Board's primary source of new members. And TVTropes isn't a fanfic community, so the people coming in weren't fanficcers (mostly).
In the old days, we got our members through fanfiction.net, when people read PPC stories, or read OFUM and went to Miss Cam's website, or got reviewed by us. All three of those happen far less these days.
hS
I read the question as "Am I still allowed to write missions?" not "Do I have to get Permission again?"
I'm so good at this, can you tell?