Textual evidence...

Subject: Textual evidence...
Author: Huinesoron
Posted on: 2016-03-03 20:12:00 UTC

... suggests that Balrogs are no more than 14 feet or so tall. Ecthelion was able to headbutt Gothmog in the belly (fatally), and he was an Elven lord, which puts him at ~7'.

Word of Author says ten feet, somewhere in the Letters, but that's not necessarily Word of God.

The fact that the fire isn't intrinsic to them is a really interesting notice that it seems virtually everyone misses; I was surprised by it as well when I ran into it, and it led directly to a certain not-so-crackpot theory.

As to the wings... I'm going to tackle that from an angle I haven't seen before. What about that mane?

The Balrog steps into the fire. The fire wreathes about it. Its 'streaming mane kindles'. Then its shadow stretches out like wings. Then its wings are spread from wall to wall.

Did the Balrog have an actual mane that caught fire, as the literal phrasing reads? Or did the flame just spring up like a mane?

(And is the smoke connected to the shadow? So many questions!)

hS

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Wednesday Pluggage: Driftwood mission! by Huinesoron on 2016-03-02 14:32:00 UTC Reply

It's been a long time (long enough that the previous run of plugs has dropped off the Board), but PPC: Driftwood is back!

Driftwood: The King's Mercy

Kaitlyn and Selene's previous missions all happened with no gaps in between; this one follows a rather large time-jump to bring it up-to-date. Things that have happened in between include Clipboards (April 2015), Headstrong: The Games of Gods (June 2015), The PPC Hunger Games: Season 3 (Jan-Feb 2016), and at least one unpublished (unfinished, mostly-unwritten) story.

And in the tradition of Driftwood: Now Taking Requests!

Yes, if you have a badfic that's under 6000 words and rated T or lower, offer it up and I'll see about sending Kaitlyn and Selene in! Please tell me why it's bad - the Intelligence Report template below is good for that. (Most refusals will be on the ground of not knowing the canon, so go ahead and offer!)

Intelligence Report Template:

Fic: [Title & link]
Continuum: [Continuum/-a]
Description: [Your summary]
Type of Badfic: [ie, what department would it fall under]
Plot Holes: [Brief description of the biggest holes in the plot]
Offenses Against Canon: [Brief description of the biggest breaks from canon]

(I can't believe I'm doing this again...)

hS

More badges stuff. by Desdendelle on 2016-03-03 10:27:00 UTC Reply

I'm pretty sure that the Heart is "posted in the shipfest thread", but in that case July is missing hers. I'm also positive that the... bumper sticker (yeah, let's go with that) is "newbie/introduction post", since only K'eth and Irrelevant have those.

I note... by Neshomeh on 2016-03-03 19:04:00 UTC Reply

That July now has a House Darjeeling badge for plugging an old mission. I wonder if it also extends to discussions about PPC lore, though in that case I reckon hS ought to give himself one, too.

I'll be interested to see if there's a Grave Energy Initiative badge for discussing original writing and a Parmandili badge for, e.g., "do Balrogs have wings?" type discussions about fandom.

~Neshomeh

I still maintain... by Phobos on 2016-03-03 19:17:00 UTC Reply

That Balrogs are amorphous beings with no defined shape beyond what they want to have. They can even shift their density/volume, potentially making themselves bigger or smaller by making themselves more or less dense.

How else does Durin's Bane squeeze through doorways in a city built for Dwarves?

-Phobos

But then why do they keep falling? by Huinesoron on 2016-03-03 20:04:00 UTC Reply

Two out of three known Balrog deaths come from falling from a great height. If they can shift either density or volume, they ought to be able to create enough surface area to slow themselves down in a fall.

A second counter: Ecthelion killed Gothmog by stabbing him. What kind of amorphous being doesn't shift out of the way of a stab?

Third and finally, a theme throughout Tolkien's works is that evil spirits get trapped in the bodies they choose for themselves. Morgoth was imprisoned in his body by the touch of the Silmarils; Sauron by repeatedly losing his body was rendered unable to put on a fair form. It's unclear which of Morgoth's servants were Maiar, but neither dragons, werewolves, nor orcs have ever been implied to change form.

Balrogs are certainly Maiar, but based on Tolkien's themes, it's unlikely they would be able to shapeshift. They were stuck in one form - whatever that form may be.

hS

(As for the doors - Khazad-Dum had extensive trade links with the Noldor, who clock in at seven feet. The Balrog is ten feet tall. I'm pretty sure the dwarves would allow three feet of headroom for their guests.)

(Also, smashing stuff is easy when you have an army.)

(~hS)

Even if they possess wings... by JulyFlame on 2016-03-04 12:56:00 UTC Reply

Things with wings can still manage to fall or crash, on account of not taking off properly for whatever reason, or getting injured beforehand, and so on.

Wings are not an automatic 'take to the skies you're safe' card.

But Phobos isn't proposing wings. by Huinesoron on 2016-03-04 13:10:00 UTC Reply

He's saying that they're density/volume-variable creatures. That doesn't suggest they should be able to fly, but it does imply they ought to be able to turn themselves into something approximating a parachute.

Which, come to think of it, is both supported and rejected by Gandalf's account. He managed to catch up with a falling Balrog, after all, and they both survived impacting with the water, which suggests some means of lowering terminal velocity. But on the flip side, he spent a lot of time clutching at its heels. Why would an amorphous Balrog retain heels if it had a choice?

hS

Isn't it obvious? by Iximaz on 2016-03-04 13:23:00 UTC Reply

Gotta be lookin' fab.

Don't be ridiculous. by Huinesoron on 2016-03-04 13:31:00 UTC Reply

Everyone knows Balrogs wear fuzzy slippers.

hS, dropping all the references

Well, the Dwarves like to build large. by Neshomeh on 2016-03-03 19:35:00 UTC Reply

A whole dragon fit in the Lonely Mountain, after all. A Balrog would have no trouble.

Anyway, Tolkien's exact words in "The Bridge of Khazad-Dûm" are as follows:

[I]t was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it.

Seems to imply that they're bigger than Men, but not colossal. It also seems like they do have a solid form, but also that there's more to them than that.

Then with a rush it leaped across the fissure. The flames roared up to greet it, and wreathed about it; and a black smoke swirled in the air. Its streaming mane kindled, and blazed behind it.

So they aren't always fiery. If there is fire, though, they can take it up. (Not really relevant to the discussion, but an interesting detail I hadn't noticed before.)

[T]he shadow about it reached out like two vast wings.

I don't think Tolkien would have bothered to say like wings if they actually were wings. This does support the idea that the shadow around a Balrog is an amorphous thing, though.

~Neshomeh

Textual evidence... by Huinesoron on 2016-03-03 20:12:00 UTC Reply

... suggests that Balrogs are no more than 14 feet or so tall. Ecthelion was able to headbutt Gothmog in the belly (fatally), and he was an Elven lord, which puts him at ~7'.

Word of Author says ten feet, somewhere in the Letters, but that's not necessarily Word of God.

The fact that the fire isn't intrinsic to them is a really interesting notice that it seems virtually everyone misses; I was surprised by it as well when I ran into it, and it led directly to a certain not-so-crackpot theory.

As to the wings... I'm going to tackle that from an angle I haven't seen before. What about that mane?

The Balrog steps into the fire. The fire wreathes about it. Its 'streaming mane kindles'. Then its shadow stretches out like wings. Then its wings are spread from wall to wall.

Did the Balrog have an actual mane that caught fire, as the literal phrasing reads? Or did the flame just spring up like a mane?

(And is the smoke connected to the shadow? So many questions!)

hS

The real question... by Phobos on 2016-03-03 14:29:00 UTC Reply

...is "What is the laser gun and why it is shooting downward?"

-Phobos

I've been pondering that, too. by Desdendelle on 2016-03-03 15:25:00 UTC Reply

More data is required, I think.

A thought. by Neshomeh on 2016-03-03 16:12:00 UTC Reply

It's not an answer, but I note the bumper sticker badge has a black ring, which therefore may denote something given/done to you rather than something you've done yourself. So, what's happened to Phobos, Des, and Larfen, but no one else (so far)?

~Neshomeh

Going off of the ring idea... by Phobos on 2016-03-03 18:19:00 UTC Reply

There appear to be several types of badges:

Red ring: Related to the act of posting (post a reply, post a chain of replys, etc)

Yellow ring: Related to the content of the post (Post in the shipping thread, post about badges, post about badges for posting about badges, etc)

Lavender? ring: Related to Sib Houses (post concrit, post in a newbie thread) Please note, the lightbulb badge has a lavender ring, which means it should relate to a House.

Black ring: Things related to posts directed at you? (receive a bumper sticker)

There may, of course, be colors we don't know about yet.

-Phobos

Hm, new information. by Neshomeh on 2016-03-03 20:42:00 UTC Reply

The badge-grabbing badge breaks my theory about the black badges being exclusively for stuff that happens to you. Maybe it is just a fourth rung on the ladder, though I'm still not sure about where it falls or what it is. It could be... iron? Obsidian? I dunno.

~Neshomeh

Octarine? by Phobos on 2016-03-03 20:53:00 UTC Reply

I think it's in Jingo (I don't have the book to reference at work) where someone notes that, to the non-magical, Octarine appears black. But not normal black. More like a hole in the fabric of reality.

-Phobos

Yup, Jingo. by Phobos on 2016-03-03 20:57:00 UTC Reply

71-Hour Ahmed (one of my favorite characters on the Disc) says that about magical fire around their ship.

-Phobos

Hm, I disagree. by Neshomeh on 2016-03-03 18:47:00 UTC Reply

I think this is definitely based on the Wikia achievement system. Remember that hS is colorblind, so the colors we get aren't necessarily the colors he intended. {= )

So, bronze is for standard activities that pretty much everyone is going to get--making a post, making several posts in consecutive threads, starting a new thread, etc. No big deal.

Silver is the next level of rarity or importance: welcoming a newbie, giving concrit, posting about badfic, posting a mission. Many people will do these things eventually, but not everyone, and not all the time.

Gold is the top level, so it's for rare things that not everyone is going to get: talking about badges and badges for badges, posting on the hour, suggesting ships in the Shipfic Fest. The sun badge throws a big of a wrench into this theory, but then I'm still not 100% certain what it means. Maybe it's for posting multiple days in a row?

The black ones are unique to this system, but the wiki has no way of knowing what's been done at you. I don't know exactly where they fall in the scale. Maybe they're outside of it, since they're basically a separate category.

~Neshomeh

We've been shot down? (nm) by Phobos on 2016-03-03 16:28:00 UTC Reply

We must construct additional Pylons (nm) by Phobos on 2016-03-03 15:43:00 UTC Reply

I thiiiiiink... by Scapegrace on 2016-03-03 10:56:00 UTC Reply

That the Ship thing is to list your ships rather than just post in the thread - note that Larfen has one where July has not. =]

That's a weird one, all right. by eatpraylove on 2016-03-03 00:47:00 UTC Reply

Glad it turned out good in the end, though. :) I love the idea of a One-Stop Plot Shop; is this idea open to the public?

^_^ by Huinesoron on 2016-03-03 09:28:00 UTC Reply

The One Stop Plot Shop is entirely free-to-use. Its founder isn't, but I don't know how heavily involved she is anyway, so that's irrelevant.

hS

Yay, more Driftwood by Desdendelle on 2016-03-02 23:52:00 UTC Reply

The mission, well... Dunno, I didn't enjoy it as much as the rest of Driftwood. It feels like it's just there — something like "another day, another mission". The One Stop Plot Shop is an interesting idea, though. (If you don't mind I'll mention that somewhere if/when I get the chance. Intertextuality, yay!)
-Des, completely baffled by the badges thing

I was worried it might feel that way. by Huinesoron on 2016-03-03 09:27:00 UTC Reply

Unfortunately there's not a whole lot to say about a story which isn't all that bad. Hence the rather long intermissions with the fic barely in sight.

(Of course I don't mind!)

hS

Congrats on the mission! =] by Scapegrace on 2016-03-02 17:16:00 UTC Reply

This is the first piece of Driftwood I've actually read, and I have to say I really liked it. It's also really interesting to see a borderline-badfic get the attention of the PPC, and the One Stop Plot Shop is a fantastic idea.

However, one thing. What do the pictures mean in Traces On The Oscilloscope? Because I cannot figure it out. At all. Sorry, I am very stupid sometimes.

Thanks! by Huinesoron on 2016-03-02 17:51:00 UTC Reply

I'm really glad the Plot Shop is getting a generally positive reception; I was a bit worried about that on.

hS knows nothing
I note a skull goblet... by Phobos on 2016-03-02 17:27:00 UTC Reply

...perhaps the pictures are related to the Sib Houses?

Is the first badge for being on the Board?

Thems what I gots, and they mights be wrongs.

-Phobos

The connections...I see them. by Phobos on 2016-03-02 17:33:00 UTC Reply

I know what the first badge and the skull goblet are for. Working on the rest.

-Phobos, puzzle lover

Ooh, I might know. by Neshomeh on 2016-03-02 17:49:00 UTC Reply

The broken lightbulb one is the logo of FanFicWorld, isn't it? ... Though, if it had something to do with that, more people ought to have it.

The first one does seem to be the Board, since all us Boarders have it; the sun-thing is maybe the wiki? But there are people on the wiki who don't have it.

Never mind, I got nothing.

~Neshomeh

I didn't see the doc when it was first posted... by Iximaz on 2016-03-02 17:51:00 UTC Reply

...but if hS has been updating it, the broken lightbulb might've been added after Nesh and I recommended fics for him to spork since we're the only ones with it.

Aha. by Iximaz on 2016-03-02 17:54:00 UTC Reply

Orange circle=speculating on the puzzle.
Hmm... by Neshomeh on 2016-03-02 17:54:00 UTC Reply

I note that there are bronze, silver, and gold rings, which make me think of the wiki's achievement badges.

And now you, Scape, Phobos, and I have gold badges picturing bronze(?) rings. What.

~Neshomeh

Badges?! by Phobos on 2016-03-02 17:59:00 UTC Reply

We don't NEED no...ahem...sorry.

here is what I theorize for badges:

Post= Post (complicated, I know)
Yarn= Start a thread
Skull goblet= Welcome a newbie
Badge= post about badges
Badge badge= talk about Fight club
Chains= post a link
Spam= Spam links?

Take it and run with it.

-Phobos

The sun... by Neshomeh on 2016-03-02 18:04:00 UTC Reply

Might be for activity today/in the last 24 hours, probably according to Board time?

~Neshomeh

I'd also had that thought. (nm) by Phobos on 2016-03-02 18:07:00 UTC Reply

I'll test those theories. Un moment. (nm) by Iximaz on 2016-03-02 18:10:00 UTC Reply

((My one comment:)) by Huinesoron on 2016-03-02 19:18:00 UTC Reply

((a. Due to me having other things that I do occasionally, updates will not always be real-time.

b. I hope you're not expecting a quick resolution to this...))

((hS and that gets me another))

((PS: I will say I've been very impressed with the deductive reasoning going on.))

Hmm, interesting. by Iximaz on 2016-03-02 19:34:00 UTC Reply

New badge: PPC. Possessors: Myself, hS, and Phobos.

Initial thought was that it was supposed to show people who posted with (nm), but that wouldn't work... hm.

The single orange ring badges are definitely for people who've been speculating, and I'm 99% sure the orange and red ring badges are for those who have gotten at least one right.

...still got nothing for the new badge, though.

Parentheticals of the Plot Continuum? (nm) by Phobos on 2016-03-02 20:14:00 UTC Reply

Ooh, a new one! by Iximaz on 2016-03-02 20:50:00 UTC Reply

Sergio Turbo's new badge=concrit!

Indeed. by Phobos on 2016-03-02 21:17:00 UTC Reply

It is the image of the Sib House Kind-words-and-a-two-by-four.

-Phobos, House Founder

I might've figured out the clock by Phobos on 2016-03-02 22:00:00 UTC Reply

But, I don't like Spam...

-Phobos

And by extension... by Scapegrace on 2016-03-02 21:00:00 UTC Reply

The quill and scroll badge is definitely "posted written PPC-related content".

Hopefully this nets me the three rings badge for a correct guess as to a badge's nature. =]

I just figured out the thread one. (nm) by Neshomeh on 2016-03-02 18:00:00 UTC Reply

That would make sense. by Scapegrace on 2016-03-02 17:32:00 UTC Reply

The Board thing in particular - the standy-uppy thing that looks like a fence post might well be a wooden board. The Sun thing, Iunno. Plort maybe?

As to why Ix is the only person with a stopwatch... I'm completely stumped.

hS. pls. include a key in the doc. pls. we r begging u.

Nice! by Neshomeh on 2016-03-02 16:33:00 UTC Reply

It's always fun to see the occasional goodfic analysis.

The One Stop Plot Shop is interesting. Are they a group within the PPC, or a separate element of the Canon Protection Initiative? Anyway, I liked the Interpretation, and how it seems each character interprets the thing itself as something different. It's a fun way to show something about who they are.

Now, I've dug through my old badfic bookmarks, and I've found one I think you might like:

Fic: "Bella in Black"

Continua: Men in Black x Twilight

Description: Bella is a member of the MiB for some reason. They deal with vampires now. J leaves because reasons; Jacob Black takes his place as "the new J." They're sent to Forks to investigate the Cullens, or maybe protect them, or something. Naturally, Bella falls for Edward and blah blah blah.

Type of Badfic: Crossover

Plot Holes/Offenses Against Canon: The writing is wooden and soulless with plenty of typos, and the chapters are generally underdeveloped—the shortest, Chapter 8, is just four lines long and it's recapped in the following chapter, making it redundant to boot.

Bella and Edward manage to be even more annoying than they are in canon. They fall in love instantly, with absolutely zero interaction. Bella in particular gets away with openly flaunting the rules of the MiB, culminating in this little gem of a scene in Chapter 12:

I slipped my glasses on my head so I could look him in the eye, "What are you going to do, Boss?" I asked, "You going to fire me? Kill me? Take me off the case? You're not going to do anything. You know just as well as I do that you can't do anything. I'm the best agent you have. You can't risk loosing me."

He stared at me and then he started to smile, "I was wondering how long it would take," he said.

"Till what?" I asked.

"Until you broke the last rule," he said, "Telling off the boss. You're more than ready for this, Swan." Then he was gone.

Everyone was quiet for a second and then I ran after him. "Boss!" I yelled. He looked at me, "How are you okay with me breaking the rules? You tell me not to break rules, and then you call me by my real name, tell me that breaking rules is okay, and walk out!"

"You are the best agent, Bella," he said, "I've waiting for you to finally stand up to me like that. You are ready. Now go back to your boyfriend." He laughed and got in his car.

Besides being stupid, I feel like it's ripping something off, too, but I can't think what. {= /

Then there's the horrible "fight scene," if you can call it that, in Chapter 14. The story proceeds to ruin Twilight canon by having Bella turn into a vampire after being bitten by James, And They All Settle Down And Live Happily Ever After. *vomits*

Oh, and a minor plothole which is nevertheless annoying: the story makes a big deal over Edward not knowing Bella's real name, but in POV sections other than Bella's, the narrative uses her name before the characters learn it. Just sloppy.

It's a little over 6,000 words, but there's enough pointless drivel that I think it might slide? Plus, it's MiB, and we need more MiB missions.

~Neshomeh

I might have figured out what that scene reminds me of. by Neshomeh on 2016-03-03 04:06:00 UTC Reply

(Yes, I've been working on this all day. It bugged me.)

Unfortunately, I think it's a Family Guy cutaway gag. As transcribed here on the FG wiki:

    [cutaway to Peter in a college schoolroom, with his head down]
    Peter Griffin: Damn it, this is too hard! [throws his pencil off the table] Here's what I think of your test, Mr. Teacher! [walks up to his teacher, rips the test paper in half, rubs it against his butt and throws it on the floor]
    Teacher: You just stood up to me. Congratulations. That was the test.
    [Peter gasps and shakes hands with the teacher. He is then shown running across the college grounds until he runs into a flock of birds. He jumps with them, and the scene freezes there]
    Peter Griffin: YEAH!!!!!!!!!!

I have no idea what they're riffing on, though.

~Neshomeh, who blames Phobos.
... :O Yeah, I'm taking that. by Huinesoron on 2016-03-02 16:40:00 UTC Reply

The fact that its title is one word off the title of 'Bella Black' is just a bonus. ;) Woooooow.

The One Stop Plot Shop (wow am I glad I don't have to say that out loud) I imagine as being part of the PPC. They're not a department proper, but they operate in the same way I've treated SIELU and the DRD - agents call them up for specialist advice, which can take the form of them dropping something in to help. But I'm leaving the details open-ended; either I'll expand on them or someone else will, who knows?

Thank you!

hS

Ooh, contender for Best Typo: by Neshomeh on 2016-03-02 17:18:00 UTC Reply

"We were never here," she said, "You've been watching TV and drinking a bear ever since the cops left."

I don't know if I should feel sorrier for Charlie or for the bear. {X D

~Neshomeh

I am choosing to imagine that this... by Scapegrace on 2016-03-02 17:24:00 UTC Reply

Is in fact a large, hairy man. Possibly wearing leather, but not very much. I am a bad, bad girl. >=]

You do appear to be. by Huinesoron on 2016-03-02 17:55:00 UTC Reply

I shall have to ponder the best way to make use of this typo.

... also I shall have to ponder how to sound less haughty. Hrm, wonder what bumped me into that mode?

hS

Well, if you need dehaughtification... by Scapegrace on 2016-03-02 18:32:00 UTC Reply

Reread Popper's The Open Society and its Enemies? Worked for me. Or play on Pokémon Showdown against tryhards while using a gimmicky team. =]

Alternatively... by Desdendelle on 2016-03-03 15:27:00 UTC Reply

Have the foundation of your usual life yanked from below your feet. It seems to have worked for Lump.

But I like my life how it is? [Frets] (nm) by Huinesoron on 2016-03-03 15:35:00 UTC Reply

I was wondering when this was going up! by Iximaz on 2016-03-02 16:12:00 UTC Reply

Got the email alert right before class today and it motivated me to finish work faster so I could read. :P

All in all, a thoroughly enjoyable mission. Kaitlyn and Selene's banter is always fun. :) When was the last time a mission happened into a non-badfic? Been a while, hasn't it?

I'll see if I can scrounge up something suitable for sporking later. Muahaha.

Thank you! by Huinesoron on 2016-03-02 16:25:00 UTC Reply

Yeah, it's been a while. Well, I've done at least one Intelligence report into a non-badfic (actually, it's the one linked to in that post), but other than that... uh, I remember someone did it back in 2004? ^_~

hS

*whistles* by Iximaz on 2016-03-02 16:46:00 UTC Reply

That's quite a while.

Anyway, I has a badfic! I found it while looking for something to spork and though I passed over it in favor of something else, it's still pretty bad.

Fic: "Enchanted"

Continuum: Disney's Peter Pan (I assume you know it)

Length: 4 chapters, and though it's 9k words (a bit over what you wanted) there are plenty of the charges that happen in the first two chapters.

Description: Apparently there's a country in the same place as Neverland, just past Skull Rock, and it's ruled by a Suvian family of people who age normally, except they stop aging, except when they find their "soul mate", they go through a bonding ceremony to make them perpetually that age. (It makes just as much sense in context.) The Sue, Princess Brynnalynn Natalia, is the heir to the throne and her soulmate is none other than an aged-up Peter.

Department: Mary Sues and/or DOGA.

Offenses against canon: Aside from the additional country and the soulmate crap, apparently the 'no aging' bit about Neverland has been mucked with for absolutely no reason other than to make Peter older. The Sue has telekinesis and precognition, possibly other powers as well. Pegasi suddenly exist in Neverland. Tiger Lily gets demoted to a groveling BFF. Possibly others, had to stop reading because of a lack of Bleep.

It... that... what? by Huinesoron on 2016-03-02 16:54:00 UTC Reply

That. It. Um. O...kay then! Yeah, I'll keep this one on file (since I'm taking Neshomeh's offering first). Definitely looking out for a chance to let Selene set 'Romalia' on fire.

hS

Oh, mission is LotR-verse. Sorry, forgot. (nm) by Huinesoron on 2016-03-02 14:38:00 UTC Reply