Subject: Oh, okay then.
Author:
Posted on: 2016-01-12 15:51:00 UTC
Since Nesh wants to hit 20 votes, I'll throw one in.
It's no surprise that I say five. I'd also suggest that something like my formula here be noted for the rare occasion that we get a new Legendary Badfic that's, well, old, but 's just a suggestion.
hS
Name: Blood Rose
Continuum: RWBY
https://www.fanfiction.net/s/9779077/1/Blood-Rose
Summary: Ruby becomes a cannibalistic murder-rapist. Yes. Really.
Crimes: Velvet Scarlatina gets murdered, raped, and eaten [i] in the first Glaurunging chapter.[/i] Need I say more?
Reason why it's a Legendary: There are plenty of other fics based on this one, and there's quite a lot of stuff online about it-readings on Youtube, Reddit threads, everything.
I would like to have this bad boy put on ice for a while, at least until I get Permission. (Which should be soon: I'm almost done with my writing samples.) I'd like to deal with this one
Here.
While the first Google search for Blood Rose, no quotes, gives me the badfic, the search for one year back turns up one hit related to the fic. Never mind that it was published in October 2013, so it doesn't quite hit the time requirement to make Legendary status.
I am all in favor of putting this on the Bleepfic list, though, since it's "bad, but not quite Legendary... yet".
I personally wasn't clear if we decided on a minimum 3-year or 5-year period-since-posting. Was there a final decision somewhere that I'm missing?
~Neshomeh, who's been out of the loop over the holidays.
But since the Blood Rose fic has only been around two years, it hits neither suggested time period, so...
(Also, remember that agent thing I emailed you about? Expect to see that later today. ;))
In case you missed it, here's the deal: in a discussion about how to designate new Legendary Badfics, we came up with the following criteria:
1. The fic is at least [three? five?] years old.
2. The fic gets a decent number of Google hits from the past year, indicating that people are still talking about it. (You can select "Past year" in Search Tools.)
* A "decent number" is at least 5 within the first two pages of results, i.e. 5 out of 20, on the assumption that there are probably more hidden in the depths.
* Ideally, the search should be performed without quotation marks.
* Hits on/related to a PPC mission to the fic don't count. 3. The fic is famous in its own right, not because of the author/sequel/prequel/fanart/whatever.
4. A majority of PPCers with an opinion agree that it is bad.
As you can see, the age of the fic is not decided, so what do you think? Should a fic up for Legendary status be at least five years old, or at least three years old?
My vote is for five years. If people are still talking about a thing on the Internet five years later, it's definitely not just a flash in the pan.
~Neshomeh
So, with seventeen votes in, here's the breakdown:
Abstentions: 2
3 years: 7
5 years: 8
That's pretty close, but the fives have it. I'm surprised, actually. The threes were ahead for a good while there, and in the end hS saved us from a tie.
I'll go and put the new criteria on the wiki, then.
~Neshomeh
Be magnanimous in victory, chaps.
One thing that interests me is the oldbie split; that is to say, the voting patterns of verified oldbies and so forth. I think there's a definite split between them voting for five years and newer Boarders voting three, and it might be interesting to find out the root cause. =]
Since Nesh wants to hit 20 votes, I'll throw one in.
It's no surprise that I say five. I'd also suggest that something like my formula here be noted for the rare occasion that we get a new Legendary Badfic that's, well, old, but 's just a suggestion.
hS
However, something else has come to my attention: Subjugation doesn't fit criterion 2. A search for "subjugation fanfic" (no quotes) only turns up three results for it in the first 20 (not counting the PPC wiki page or a blank TV Tropes page), without limiting it to the past year. Specifying "subjugation harry potter fanfic" gets it to 7... until I drop it to the last year, when it changes to only one. So, uh... it kinda ought to be dropped. (Sorry, Nesh.)
But, yeah, five years. I was going to go for three, but then I tested the current legendaries, and they've stood the test of five years, so I figure we may as well go more restrictive.
The fic seems to have been completely deleted from the internet. :(
I think, though, as it stands, the current Legendaries can be 'grandfathered in', so to speak.
...nobody answered your question from the last time you brought that up. And, to me, the answer is no, it's not. Nobody even sporked it - that seems to me to indicate that it was exactly the sort of "flash-in-the-pan" that the new definition is trying to exclude.
I disagree with the idea that the current Legendaries should keep their status if they don't fit our new definition. If we keep any in defiance of the change, it should be on a case-by-case basis. Subjugation might make the cut. Cho Chang's Desires should go (I think. Others will disagree, I'm sure.)
There's no reason to keep "Cho Chang's Desires" on the list, especially since it doesn't seem to exist anymore.
As for "Subjugation," I think it's at least legendary in-universe, even if it doesn't fit the new OOU criteria. I'd also point out that it's over ten years old now, and there's a reason we're only talking about three or five (though it's true that the likes of "legolas by laura" are still holding up after all this time). It certainly did the rounds in the sporking community back in the day, though, with a trail of sadly broken links to show for it.
Agreed with treating any others on a case-by-case basis. I'd suggest, though, that if it's already been PPC'd as a Legendary, it should stay a Legendary.
~Neshomeh
Agony in Pink: six hits in first two pages (no quotes, last year). Written 16/11/1994 (!). Definitely still Legendary.
Celebrian: Only three hits ("celebrian fanfic", no quotes). Missioned, so in by grandfather clause, I guess.
Cho Chang's Desires: Basically nothing left, as discussed. Remove?
Cloud Mows the Lawn: eight hits. Stays.
Cupcakes: Difficult to tell, given how many fanfics have "Cupcakes" in their name, but it brings up images on the "All" tab. I'm not going to argue with this one.
Draco's Christmas Cuppa: Nothing within the past year. I read it, and it really just seems like an average bleepfic. *shrugs*
Land before Time: Littlefoot x Cera: Again, nothing. However, this would definitely qualify for grandfathering after Trojie and Pads' epic battle with it.
legolas by laura: Been over this. Its resilience is impressive.
Lion King Orgy Poem: Nothing. Remove?
Little Miss Mary: Two hits, one of which is the fic. It's old, so the fic itself being the top result is actually impressive. Should probably be grandfathered.
My Immortal: Has a Wikipedia page. Even competing with the song it's named for, it eats up half the first page of results. It's Legendary.
Subjugation: Been over this. Probably grandfather due to in-universe mass agent snapping.
Rose Potter: One hit with "Rose Potter". Nothing with "the girl who lived". However, it's so well-known that it needs to stay.
Marrissa Picard: No hits. Not sure what to do with this.
That Series: Nothing. *sigh*
So, what now? Do we form a committee? Have a vote? Any thoughts on any of the above? Am I overstepping my authority?
Sorry for not being orderly about it.
I'm going to argue that CCD had indeed been quite the thing years and years ago, before it was deleted- there's a reason it was notorious. Same with DCC.
The same with the Marrissa Picard fics- those I had encountered MSTs of years and years before I found the PPC; they were well enough in plenty of other sporking rings that for a few of them your own rendition was practically a rite of passage, I can only remember one person who was actually lunatic enough to MST all of them.
As for the LKOP, I still have to this day no idea where it surfaced from, beyond the suspicion that it might have been a Laburnum addition.
Beyond that, I have to state for the record that the internet changes, and so do fandoms. Things that had been notorious throughout fandom corners in the late 90s and early 00s are hard to find these days; some of these things have just disappeared forever because of the hosting sites fading away, and so on.
Additionally, Google itself isn't the same, either: it shows results that are far more tailored to the person searching now, and it can do some truly impressive stuff thanks to indexing.
Basically, trying to go by current searches won't be accurate for a variety of reasons, especially because fandoms move on and grow or change (HP for example was so big it had multiple rings of fandom corners, all with their own assortment of Big Name Fans) or just die out.
I'm not saying we should dismiss the introduction of new stuff- even though I'm not in some of the fandoms for fics proposed (what's this Blood Raining Night thing?)- but it definitely shouldn't mean the outright dismissal of older stuff either just because it doesn't meet current 'percieved' standards.
-July, wanting to weigh in while having the chance
...would Latias' Journey qualify? It's got its own TV Tropes page, the first three pages of a Google search of it turn up mentions of the fic, and it was completed in 2009. I wouldn't be surprised if we considered it a Legendary by this point.
I find you can usually tell if a fanfic is going to be bad from the first chapter. Agony in Pink has the main villain being subtly warped to get the poorly-written torture porn going; Rose Potter has the title character being obscenely vicious and OP; Hogwarts Exposed has the nipple-biting scene; legolas by laura and My Immortal are obvious trainwrecks; etc., etc.
Latias' Journey... starts with a dream of a wedding, introduces a villain, and generally does what a story should. Apparently there's superfluous rape later on, but... it seems overall pretty average. And they're not called Legendary Average Fanfics.
So what makes it bad? Convince me. (And I'll keep reading it, too - might change my mind).
I just reread Draco's Christmas Cuppa, and the impression I got was a MKINYK squickfic rather than any kind of badfic. :-\
Would "Rainbow Factory" fit these criteria?
(You could've checked it yourself, you know. It's not complicated.)
It's been mentioned a few times that on the Internet, things tend to drop out of the public mindset. If we were being strictly logical about this, we'd work out some kind of formula - like, 'for each three years over the five year limit, remove one required hit from Google, down to a minimum of one' (meaning that a 'new' LB over 17 years old would only need to get one hit in the top two pages - which would be pretty impressive, actually!).
I don't know how old Clbrn is. I know it existed in 2002, because it was already Legendary before the PPC existed. Under the above formula, that would mean it only needs two hits in the top 20 to qualify, making it come in at 150% of the requirement. (No, I didn't craft the requirement to fit!)
Things will always get talked about less, especially when - as with Clbrn - they've always been quite tricky to find the text of. I think allowing a little leeway for older stories is perfectly fine.
(Also, you're wrong about Marrissa Picard - Google automatically 'corrects' your spelling. If you tell it to actually search for what you typed, she seems to be the only hit.)
hS
Agony in Pink turns 22 this year. It still fits the requirements.
My Immortal is almost ten years old. It's dominant in the results. Seriously.
These demonstrate that if something is truly, epicly legendary, it'll stand the test of time. My point therefore being that I don't approve of the decaying requirement (much). I think perhaps an exponential decay would be better, dropping to 0 at the start of the internet. Buuuut I'm too lazy to work it out. And nobody would care, anyway. And this is more rambly than I intended. And I'll stop now.
(Celebrian existed in November 2000 at the very least; see here: http://web.archive.org/web/20010423131650/http://www.greyarchive.com/Celebrian.htm (accursed html not liking urls with http in the middle. :-))
(And re: Marrissa: Derp. I are totes smarts. >_
Agony in Pink turns 22 this year. It still fits the requirements.
My Immortal is almost ten years old. It's dominant in the results. Seriously.
These demonstrate that if something is truly, epicly legendary, it'll stand the test of time. My point therefore being that I don't approve of the decaying requirement (much). I think perhaps an exponential decay would be better, dropping to 0 at the start of the internet. Buuuut I'm too lazy to work it out. And nobody would care, anyway. And this is more rambly than I intended. And I'll stop now.
(Celebrian existed in November 2000 at the very least; see here: http://web.archive.org/web/20010423131650/http://www.greyarchive.com/Celebrian.htm (accursed html not liking urls with http in the middle. :-))
(And re: Marrissa: Derp. I are totes smarts. >_
...at two hundred pounds, is this baby elephant!
I'm in favor of removing Lion King Orgy Poem and Cho Chang's Desires. Everything else is already pretty famous within the PPC community and/or the rest of the internet. Heck, Agony in Pink had a news article where it was mentioned!
Draco's Christmas Cuppa could probably stand to be removed, even though it was already missioned.
Subjugation I vote stays in, and I'd like to add Blood Raining Night if the votes make the cutoff three years. When Google's search bar tries to automatically fill it in for you with just "blood r", you know it's pretty famous.
Whether now or in a year and a half, Blood Raining Night has to go on there. There's a Minecraft skin, for Nayru's sake! And My Inner Life should be on there too, like hS mentioned in the last discussion.
In light of this discussion, we might want to make a new thread to vote on the removal of Cho Chang's Desires, the Lion King Orgy Poem and Draco's Christmas Cuppa (unless you want me to just remove them? I doubt anyone will notice).
(that I should find better titles for my posts.)
That you should wait till the voting on the three years/five years bit is done, then axe the things that are agreed upon. The ones people say should be grandfathered in should probably have a separate discussion, in my opinion.
... it's been 48 hours with no new votes in.
I was going to call it at 24, but then I got too busy to make the post (my dad is stopping over on his way to visit my grandmother). I'm also still holding out a tiny bit of hope that we'll get 20 votes in total. So, 48 it is!
~Neshomeh
Lion King Orgy Poem - I'd be okay removing it. I don't think anyone ever did anything with it.
Marrissa Picard - There are some hits even in "Past year" if you search her full name, Marrissa Amber Flores Picard. Only four in the top 20, but three of them are the top three, which ought to count for something, IMO.
That Series - Wow. I didn't believe you that there were no hits on this one, but there really aren't, even searching the series' actual title. Weird. O.o Still, to me, mass sporking says it gets grandfathered in.
I second Des' comments, and we seem to be in agreement on the rest.
And no, you're not overstepping your authority. There isn't much authority around here in the first place, and those of us who often take the initiative on this sort of thing tend to be relieved when other people step up sometimes. {= )
~Neshomeh
Rose Potter ought to be grandfathered in (missioned). Ditto for That Series.
(Or, Des tries not to fail in counting.)
Right now, we have 5 votes for five years, 7 votes for three years, and 2 abstaining.
...Supper Smash Bros: Mishonh From God viable for Legendary status
That's, uh, quite the fic. Only problem I can see is that it might (might) fall under the ban on religious fic (since it has God as a character). But, wow. Yeah. Definitely remembering this for 2018.
Any shorter than that and it's just a passing thing, yeah.
Though frankly, I would have gone with ten years or something else much longer—but I find the Legendary label to be rather arbitrary either way.
I personally would even vote for a shorter time, but as that is not an option three years seems like the least worst choice. I mean in today's internet you are lucky if something is being talked about 5 weeks later.
If your 'legendary' story isn't remembered two months later - it wasn't exactly a legend, was it?
hS
I just do not know if anything would ever really reach the five year mark in this era. Take for example, something like the so-called Bountygate Scandal in the NFL. This was a huge deal, about five years ago, and it is rarely brought up again, it stopped being talked about no more than two years after the event, and was relegated to an after thought. Same thing goes for the Deflategate Scandal from earlier this NFL season. These are huge things that have fallen out of the public consciousness in relatively short time.
From my perspective, the argument is that those things are no longer being talked about because they weren't ever really that important. I don't know about Bountygate, but Deflategate pretty much boils down to "Some guy cheated, got caught and tried to deny it, but everyone knows he did it." Case closed, end of discussion. In the grand scheme of importance, it doesn't hold a candle to, say, Watergate, which was so huge that people have started a trend of naming trivial events after it in an attempt to puff them up and make them sound bigger than they actually are.
(Seriously, what is up with people naming everything after Watergate these days?)
In the fanfic sphere, I'd equate Deflategate to yet another "My Immortal" clone. It might get people in the fandom wailing for a while, but in the end it's just another "My Immortal" clone, and its infamy will never rival the original. This is as it should be.
~Neshomeh
Certainly agree with everything being gate, but that's what the internet does. My main point is that five years and the internet is very hard to make. I think three years still shows what we want shown. As has been said, even three years in this era of the internet is ancient.
For the record, I'm not terribly fussed if the result ends up being three years. If that happens, I get to claim "Blood Raining Night" right away instead of waiting another year and a half. I went with five mainly because I think harder-won rewards are sweeter. {= )
~Neshomeh
That "very hard to make" is the point here. It's Legendary stuff we're talking about, not your run-of-the-mill aughfic.
Five is an eternity Internet-wise.
To be honest, this is more to do with recent fandoms not being left out, but there could perhaps be provisos made for such cases - Cupcakes, for instance, only barely fits the five-year criterion now, based on the earliest possible date, and there's no doubt that that piece of... work is a Legendary Badfic. The three-year limit is the lesser of two weevils, in my mind, so I'm voting for that. =]
Because five years on the internet is, like, totally ancient. Like the dinosaurs.
We can't call something Legendary if it doesn't measure up to dinosaurs now, can we?
Joking aside, yeah, five sounds good.
