Subject: Organic automata. Also known as beings which are alive.
Author:
Posted on: 2015-11-18 14:37:00 UTC
If you want to quibble over the semantic definitions of sentient life, fine, but fair warning: I'm really into hard SF. I'm good at this. =]
And the Library of the Damned. I'm a guest Librarian on there, who rather likes Science Fiction. I'm currently working with another person to riff The Marissa Games. I have several OCs, including one confusingly named agigabyte. You can find me under agigabyte on the Library.
Have a shovel that digs up... hang on.
*dig dig dig*
... okay, apparently it digs up X-Files. Solve them if you want.
I agree with the sentiments below about the killing of redshirts. The way you worded it was... kinda creepy.
Also, please don't break the shovel. It's hard to come up with those.
*realization*
Wait a minute...
Have you read any PPC stories aside from the ones by Laburnum?
Welcome to the PPC. Have some Bloffee - I can assure you you'll be needing it soon.
Have this bag of black-hole dark chocolate. Could you also stop destroying your gifts please? As a fellow newbie I can assure you that the stories are dead wrong.
*Uses the Retcannon to Retcon away any harmful or otherwise negative effects of the chocolate, then gives it to a Redshirt* *It chokes on the Chocolate and dies*
Please no killing the redshirts. That's, you know, kinda mean.Besides, if they get killed now, who's going to be left to die in canon?
But, um. Yeah. It's generally considered to be in poor taste to joke about killing people, so... mind toning it down?
Oh, no, I don't kill them. They aren't even creatures. They're basically programs. Albeit flawed ones who die for no reason.
Mind explaining your logic here? Memetic Mutation aside, in-universe those crew members are still sentient beings. The malevolent interactions with these members of canon using the Newbie Gifts we are attempting to bestow is, well... a bit creepy, truth be told. The gifts aren't out to get you!
Not sentient at all. These aren't crew members, they're Contrivances provided by the Plot Contrivance Corporation. Also, not malevolent. They're just dying. They die from being looked at wrong. Literally. It's rather annoying.
These jokes are Not Funny. They need to Stop. Now.
They said this air would be breathable
Get in, get out again, and no one gets hurt
Something is pulling me up the hill
I look down in my red shirt
I look down in my red shirt
('Redshirt', Jonathan Coulton)
(Scene: A lush jungle near rocky terrain. The landing party materializes.)
McCoy: Well, this looks like a safe enough place.
(A huge hole opens up in the ground and swallows one of the men in red shirts.)
Kirk: Yes, Bones, and the vegetation makes a pleasant change from the ship.
(Another guy wearing a red shirt reaches out, touches a plant and explodes. Kirk, Spock and McCoy turn and stare expectantly at the third guy in a red shirt. Spears comes whizzing through the air and one lodges in his chest. McCoy bends over and examines him, then shakes his head.)
McCoy: He's dead, Jim.
Kirk: Well, at least that's over with.
(Who Shall Bring Us Light?, Peter Anspach)
hS
It is kinda creepy to shoot well-meaning newbie gifts. I mean, OK, if it would have been the face-eating tea, but a couple sharp feathers? A plushie? I think agigabyte kinda overreacts here. It looks like a... hostile mindset (let's go with that) to me.
So - just to be clear, here - you consider that writing attempted-humorous destruction of some (pretend) feathers, (pretend) spikes, and (pretend) SPaGhetti, eating of (pretend) chocolate, and moving-to-another-location of a (pretend) plushie is justification for the hostile environment created for this new member of the PPC community by (in no particular order) Hardic, Darkotas, Iximaz, and yourself?
hS
I'm also kinda put off by this newbie's reactions to their newbie gifts. In my case, the reason is that what's meant as a friendly, welcoming gesture is being met in what appears to be a spirit of mistrust, rejection, and destruction. Even if you add "pretend" to all the above, it's still pretty rude to the people who were being genuinely nice.
On the other hand, getting offended at humor based on the death of fictional characters is definitely a bit silly, coming from PPCers. C'mon, guys, think about it for a second. Is that really the reason you were upset?
~Neshomeh
My reaction to the gifts being destroyed was more along the lines of "Um. Oookay?" I thought it was odd, but it didn't upset me.
Joking about redshirts being killed, fine. It happens often enough in canon that we recognize it does, and we laugh about it. Joking about killing redshirts because they're going to die anyway, though? Really rubbed me the wrong way, especially by saying they're not real and therefore it doesn't matter. Yes, they're not real, but neither are mini-Boarders, and that went over so well last time someone killed them for fun. It's less about 'OH NOES THEY'RE KILLING FICTIONAL CHARACTERS' as it is what those characters represent. We laugh at killing Sues because the Sues represent a Bad Thing. Redshirts are characters whose only purpose is to show how dangerous the Monster of the Week is, so what does it mean when we go out and kill them for fun?
It's more about the mindset behind the words that worries me. I did try to ask them to stop less harshly and flat-out told them to stop when they didn't; I realize now I could have been gentler, and for that, I apologize, but I don't apologize for asking them to stop at all. Maybe I did get wound up over nothing, but it reminded me the logic used by my old bullies. "She's not a real person, so it doesn't matter what we say/do to her." It struck a very unpleasant nerve with me.
But again, I do apologize for my harshness. It won't happen again.
I was never joking about killing the Redshirts. Only them dying.
I was just trying to answer with a little humour, using his statement with'stories' about the gifts. Sorry if it looked like hostility.
For what little my input may be worth, it wasn't that the jokes concerning redshirts didn't work, it was that they didn't work in such a way that left me a little bit uneasy. Referring to sentient being (alright, (pretend) sentient beings) as glitches and so forth? I don't much like that. Besides, your jokes not being funny seems like a bit of a problem if you intend to be part of a comedy community like the PPC.
Yes, I think this glass house is a perfect environment for throwing stones, why do you ask? =]
By which I mean, I typed the phrase 'Plot Contrivance Corporation' into Google. Apparently it's a Thing over on the Library of the Damned. I have no idea whether they hand out Redshirts, or Retcannons for that matter.
Attacked by an evil clone at a publicity appearance, Blue Space Hero is saved by the intervention of a leaping red-shirted passerby. From photos taken at the scene, it's unclear whether the man's leap was intentional, or if the Hero picked him up and threw him in the way. Either way, the RedShirt becomes the posthumous envy of Blue Space Hero fanboys across the galaxy.
(BrikWars 2010 rules example, 'RedShirts')
hS
Well, that is most definitely me told. Consider my objections with regard to the funniness of the jokes entirely withdrawn.
I wasn't making any statement as to whether the jokes were funny or not. My point was that they may be derived from another source, rather than being original to agigabyte.
hS
If I lack the context that makes a joke or reference funny, fine, I won't find it funny when it should be... but that's hardly my fault or anyone else's in the audience. And even then, there's always going to be someone in the audience who still doesn't get it or doesn't think it's funny.
I'm not trying to create a hostile environment for anybody. I just consider this series of what I hope are poorly-understood jokes by agigabyte to be creepy, and I think it ought to be mentioned. I'm assuming miscommunication here, especially since agigabyte did not yet reply to Ix's posts, not "OMG newbie is EVIL and BAD". Would you rather that I would have not said anything?
It is kinda creepy... I think agigabyte kinda overreacts... It looks like a... hostile mindset
These jokes are Not Funny. They need to Stop. Now.
I would quite definitely rather new members of the community who have made all of seven posts weren't greeted with that kind of thing. If that involves you not saying anything, then yes, I would rather you hadn't said anything.
Are you surprised that they haven't come back and replied to this? Really?
hS
I do not assume to think in other people's stead and therefore I do not assume to know why or why not people post. They could be busy, they could be asleep, they could decide this isn't the place for them... I (usually) don't try to second-guess a person's motives.
But nevermind that. I guess I should keep my opinions to myself from now on.
What everyone should always do is:
a) Consider whether their opinions are fair to those around them. To stress the point, holding the opinion that someone who jokes about breaking their presents is creepy and hostile... doesn't seem particularly fair to them.
b) Where their opinions about someone or something are negative, should be respectful in how they present them (I think this falls under Article 3). If I'm of the opinion that Lacksidacksical doesn't know a single thing about quantum physics, calling her ignorant is not the way to express that.
Basically: your posts in this thread give me a very clear picture of you folding your arms and glowering at the computer. I don't think that's what you want to come across like, so how's about some smiley words instead? :-,
hS
It goes both ways, it seems. Looks like I haven't made myself clear.
I'm not glowering at the computer — not then and not now. I'm, as mentioned, disturbed by the above. It's nothing major, but it does bother me. In retrospect I could have probably phrased it better. I'll keep what you said here in mind.
I'm also a tad... not annoyed, annoyed isn't the right word... but I don't like being told that people would rather that I would shut up. Telling me to rephrase what I say I understand, telling me I said things in a bad/offensive way I also get — I'm fully aware that I make mistake and I'm not bothered by being told as much (like this post does) — but being told to (effectively) shut up, I don't like. My own mistakes aside, I'm kinda... stung? IDEK, by your previous post.
Seriousness aside... do forgive me if I'm not in a smiley mood. Here, have this calming piece of music instead.
I shouldn't have said (er, agreed?) that it would have been better for you to not have said anything; I'm sorry.
hS
I do hope that what needs to be learned from this will be learned from this and it could be put behind us.
*scurries back to his reading, of which there is quite a lot*
These Redshirts are what amounts to Organic Automatons. They are not crew members like on Star Trek. They're simply randomly generated programs that make the ships look populated until they die. I should've explained their nature.
automatons, they'll be fine.
Do you sell your Christmas presents? Because that's the sense I'm getting from this. Not ingratitude, exactly, but a certain level of indifference.
If you want to quibble over the semantic definitions of sentient life, fine, but fair warning: I'm really into hard SF. I'm good at this. =]
But it has no brain. Instead, it's controlled by an organic central computer A La B1 Battledroids.
An "organic central computer" is basically what a brain is. B1s are shown to be sentient at several points in Star Wars; so, for that matter, are droids in general.
Perhaps an analogy that better expresses your point would be the vodun zombie (rather than the George A. Romero or Infected types from various films); a lurching, debatably sentient ex-person raised to serve the will of a single individual. This doesn't apply to security personnel in Starfleet any more than it applies to Clone Troopers, or Cylons, or any other mook organizations you'd care to mention. They are sentient lifeforms. Even at their worst, they deserve compassion and rehabilitation, not a one-way ticket to an abattoir.
But then, maybe I'm overthinking this. If LotD has redshirts knocking around as an expendable slave race (like how the 4GBHE thinks of the Ood in Doctor Who) then, well, I can't really stop them from having one. It definitely skeeves me out, though, and while it could just be my deeply-held pacifist beliefs talking, I'd rather not have to find out.
Organic central computer - as in, not in the specific body. The Battle Droids in The Phantom Menace are firmly established - in admitted defiance of the evidence actually on screen - to be puppets of the Droid Control Ship. Puppets is (clearly, to me) the image agigabyte is going for here.
Unfortunately the only example of biological puppets I can come up with is in the Ancillary Justice trilogy, where they're mind-wiped humans. But I'm sure there's examples out there of computers which use drone bodies to interact with their crew...?
(Actually, yes, there's at least one - Anne McCaffrey's The Ship Who Searched introduces an android 'body' for a ship-bound brain at the end. While I doubt Tia would be pleased to have her very expensive android destroyed, she wouldn't consider it dying, either.)
hS
If it's a puppet thing, that's... kind of how I imagine hive minds working. A superorganism with multiple individual bodies. Killing the individual bodies is like killing a white blood cell -- deleterious if you do so faster than supplies can be replenished, but other than that more of an inconvenience to the Hive Mind than a problem.
Biological examples, hm... certain Master powers from Worm would work, particularly Khepri, but that's bending the description a bit. Aside from that, any Hive Mind race you want, really, though the Tyranids from 40K really stand out.
Alife examples are the Culture's Minds, who interact with their "crew" (basically glorified passengers because Minds are benevolent god-tier super AIs) through drone bodies that are, basically, grown to look like how the Mind wants them to.
... is the Formics in Ender's Game, who on showing up in human space proceed to dissect the first humans they capture alive - because they assume that humans are exactly that kind of hive race, and what they're doing is the equivalent of saying 'so what do you do at work?'. But as you say, any of 'em will do.
Except the ones which are the other kind of hive mind - individuals in continuous mind-to-mind contact. The Conjoiners from Revelation Space hit this occasionally, and... I think there's a weird Stephen Baxter series, too?
The Culture example seems to match what agigabyte (appears to be) saying, if you assume that Minds would use their drones as ablative armour for their passengers. ^_~
hS
Also, I haven't read Ender's Game in forever because doing so would involve either chasing down a copy in a local library or buying one, and frankly the latter is too much work to even tacitly support that ghastly bloody man. One assumes that Formics wasn't the name they gave themselves, though, because it's obviously derived from formica, the Latin word for cheaply-made kitchen surfaces. =]
Back on topic, the Culture doesn't do that with drones because it's really not what they do at all; drones is really kind of the wrong term anyway. The closest analogy I can think of is the Special Circumstances combat suits that show up from time to time. They're sentient alife, but they live in a suit, and they have amazing reaction times and 3D vision and all the kind of stuff you'd expect from an immensely advanced civilization like the Culture. They're not quite ablative armour, but remember that the Culture's language, Marain, deliberately doesn't really have words for that kind of concept, plus they're innately pacifist space hippies who can Get Dangerous quite quickly in the grand tradition of Darkwing Duck. =]
Hello, and welcome aBoard! For your newbie gift, take this plate of freshly-made SPaGhetti!
If you haven't yet read them, may I point you towards the Original Series and the Constitution? They're pretty much the only required reading around these parts. Another useful resource you might use is the Wiki; if you have any questions, just look here before asking. We like it when newbies do the research. ;)
Hope you like it here! :D
*Has an OC shoot the SPaGhetti* I've heard the stories.
Read the Constitution, will read the Original Series.
Welcome to the PPC board, sir (or other title befitting your gender of preference) agigabyte! I can't say I have heard of any of those things, except /maybe/ the Library of the Damned, but it's always nice to see new faces and make new friends!
What kind of science fiction do you enjoy in particular? The classics, like Isaac Asimov? More modern works like Alien or Terminator? Or maybe you fancy giant robots?
Anywho, whether you decide to answer or not, hope you enjoy your stay!
Sir is fine.
I enjoy some classics, but look in another response for a detailed list of modern stuff.
Here's a Chocobo plushie wearing Ryu's headband, because why the hell not!
*Has a Company of Redshirts take the item back to the Flagship of my space Fleet, the GNS Archon* *All but one dies from tripping and falling*
May I ask what fandoms you're in?
For the time being, have one of my own shed feathers and a complimentary kit of Spikes!