Subject: Oh dear, has someone committed an Orangism?
Author:
Posted on: 2015-09-22 01:16:00 UTC
As in, accidentally starting an argument about tone, causing people to argue? I certainly hope no circular arguments, that is, points that circle back around to the beginning of a debate, have been made or said.
(Be right back, I need to call the DRD on myself. And, it's not my fault if you read orangism as something else.)
As in, accidentally starting an argument about tone, causing people to argue? I certainly hope no circular arguments, that is, points that circle back around to the beginning of a debate, have been made or said.
(Be right back, I need to call the DRD on myself. And, it's not my fault if you read orangism as something else.)
First I'll start by saying there seems to be a whole lot of arguing going on below this, so I'll just get right to the story, which is frankly what people should be focusing on.
I'm just going to come out and say it. I like this story a lot. After an early moment of confusion (I'll touch that in a bit) it was enjoyable. I have seem a few comments about tone. I loved the tone. I love when we see something that breaks the mold, the impression I often have gotten through discussions and stories and such, was often "It must be funny or it's bad". This idea always kind of irritated me, because every writer has a different style, and not everyone can write a funny story, and not everyone wants to write comedy. This is a fantastic example of a story that was well written, dealt with mature themes, and frankly was not funny (at least I did not think so). This is not a bad thing. Comedy is not the end all be all.
Now on to the part of confusion. Very early on I got confused because in one paragraph you were using gender neutral pronouns. I was not sure who it was referring to. Further keep in mind not everyone knows gender neutral pronouns. I actually had to look it up to confirm it. Since it really came up in only one paragraph, my question is, do you really even need it? Just my thoughts on that.
Now final remarks on whatever seems to be going on below. From what I gather it seems that you want to resign as a PG because a few people did not think the tone was adequate. In the most bluntest form, I say screw them. First tone is the author's choice. Are you satisfied with the tone? If yes, then that's all that matters. I also think that going into a less expected tone/genre/etc. is the mark of a truly talented writer. I think tactically that was the right choice. I would even go so far as to say, that if this piece were humorous, it would not have worked.
Now time for a bit of a soapbox with regards to tone. I am all for opening the PPC community as a whole to "darker" tones. If someone wants to write something that is heavy on dramatic elements and low on humor, I say go for it. I think we can classify the PPC as a long-runner now. These things need to evolve, or they will stagnate. I think accepting "darker" toned pieces is a good decision. This is not the time for that debate so I will say no more about that.
But back to the resignation, I see absolutely no reason to do it.
Please reread my first response.
"That said, I don't personally like the direction being taken with the PPC here.
To me, at least, it's much too harsh."
This has nothing to do with the matter of tone. It has to do with an actual direction of things changing towards being authoritarian, to borrow the word.
His Elflordliness Huinesoron has written dark things set in the universe of the PPC. I have written things that are not comedy, and have dealt with mature issues. We are not saying 'no, everything must be funny'.
This has to do with the direction of taking something in the PPC itself in a direction that is against things that have been set previously as precedent for years.
This means that either there is a breaking of PPC-canon, or that things are going in an unsavory direction in-universe.
The second is the thing we are taking issue with.
There is a reason that we both listed a bunch of agents who had done similarly (without getting the book thrown at them). There is a reason that hS wrote the ficlet response that he did- which actually features and talks about agents that were involved in his HQ-focused series that had to do with the Department of Internal Security, which used to do the thing that the DIA is pulling in this story! His miniresponse is quite serious in tone because that's what was called for!
There is breaking the mold. This is when you do something new.
There is breaking the canon. This is when you are going against what has been previously established.
This was the second.
There is nothing wrong with having darker tones present in the PPC. But the PPC is not a "grimdark" universe. We charge for discordant tones and going against the themes of a canon at times for a reason. Needless to say, it goes for the PPC and people who write in this shared universe as well.
Is that perhaps the canon can, and perhaps should evolve. I am also not going to go any further into this debate. There is a time and a place for that, and this was supposed to be me congratulating the writers on a story that I think was well written and quite enjoyable. I will also admit that I did not thoroughly read the responses pertaining to this debate, because I only wanted to briefly touch upon it. Otherwise I would have thrown my two cents directly into that debate. The final thing I will say here is that you seem to have two choices. Keep it the same or its going in the wrong direction. I think there are multiple options. I also personally like this direction because I enjoy seeing internal conflict. It makes it seem more realistic.
But because I do not want to derail this any further, I thought this was not only well written, but I enjoyed it. I for one am looking forward for how this arc plays out.
I apologize ahead of time if what I'm about to say seems harsh; as I typically say at the head of these reviews, it's never my intention to insult or belittle. I've been thinking about this for a while now. A lot of what I'm about to say is going to be extremely subjective. You are free to accept or dismiss it as you like.
This piece… I was not a fan of it. The stuff with the Reader interacting with the TARDIS was interesting, but kind of awkward to read. The highlight was the scene with Alex Dives, beyond a doubt. It was both emotional and very solidly written. But the rest of the story felt very slow to me.
I'm honestly a little tired of reading about the various PPC Time Lords and Ladies bemoaning their fate and that of Gallifrey. That was one of the various reasons why I stopped watching Doctor Who. It felt like there was a lot of that here. I understand they have a lot to complain about and are justified in doing so, but that particular drum has been beat so much that I've stopped caring.
And then we come to the Aviator/Rina Dives. Forgive me for saying, but I don't like this character any more.
It started when she changed from a human into a Time Lord. I was not a fan of that particular decision. At the time, I thought it was a cheap means to avoid killing a character. You get the emotionality of death without the otherwise required baggage. I didn't raise a fuss about it, however, because I trusted in Iximaz's writing abilities. I thought she might do something new with the concept.
As time went on and more bad things happened to the Aviator/Rina, I became less interested in the character. I have no problem with characters who suffer. On the contrary, I would argue that its very much necessary. Without a struggle, there can be no triumph. The character will neither evolve nor change. But this suffering should have a point beyond "to make the audience feel pity." I did not get that with the Aviator/Rina. It just seemed to me like she was getting hit with problem after problem just so readers would go "aww, poor thing." She didn't win; she didn't evolve. Maybe she did and I missed it, but that's what it felt like to me. That is not interesting.
I was honestly kind of excited when it seemed like she was going to be gone for good — or at the very least, for a sizable amount of time. Maybe there would be some stories about her partner going solo, or working with someone new. I thought at the very least she would come back with a better grasp on life and herself. But I was incorrect.
I also want to touch on the comparisons between A/R and the Doctor. They popped up both in the fic's author notes and in the comments here. Part of the reason why I think the character no longer gels with me is that she stopped being herself and started being a disjointed expy of the Doctor. Let the Doctor be the Doctor, and let A/R be A/R.
Finally, I want to comment on some of the things that July said. I think that she is correct in her assessment of this portrayal of the PPC. I think it would help if we had some more stories about the DIA to tone them down a bit (get on that, Ekyl!). That being said, I do not agree with your decision to immediately give up your PG-ship. You're a very good writer; one of the better ones in this community, I would argue. But even good writers are not immune to mistakes. That is no reason to resign.
But that's ultimately your decision. Think on it for a while, at the very least.
The Aviator's story is far from over.
"Hey, love."
Steve looked up and waved. "Heya. How are the kids?"
Tango chuckled. "Luden's been busy explaining that his white hair makes him better than everyone else, Jason's been playing 'Hunt the Snark' with the Telcontar girls, and Aaron... last I saw him, was trying to headbutt his way through a wall."
"Pretty much normal, then." Steve reached up and held his wife's hand over his shoulder. "What brings you here, then? Nyx busy?"
"She's got a cowrite with someone from Elven Linguistics, so I'm at loose ends."
Steve frowned. "She's got a what?"
"A... what do you call it when you get sent off to work with a one-time partner?"
"Oh, that. Haven't a clue. Special assignment?"
"That'll do." Tango glanced at the console screen. "So what's in the news today?"
Steve grinned. "Which one? The Monitor says the Troupe By Any Other Name got caught in a Quiddich match, and are now second place in the league. The Real Monitor," he waved a sheet of colourful paper, "is yelling about two of the Yellow Roses swapping identities. PPC Radio are still going on about that body-swap thing, Radio Nutmeg 'won't believe how hilarious these 10 Bad Slash mission reports are', the-"
"Etcetera, etcetera." Tango tapped on the screen. "But what about the real news?"
"Oh, on the network? Mm..." Steve pulled up the bulletin boards. "Looks like... oh, you remember that Dives girl?"
"Uh... failed to kill her partner and ran away?"
"Something like that. Apparently she's back and in DIA custody. There's a recording..."
The video was small and greyscale, showing a nondescript corridor. Tango frowned. "Is that DIA Central?"
"Can't be." Steve scanned the message the footage was attached to. "But is. I guess this Ghost chap has connections."
"Yes, dangerous ones. So what-?" Tango fell silent as two DIA agents appeared on screen. There was no sound, but someone had helpfully subtitled the video:
I have calculated the probability of certain verdicts. I must admit that her future career is looking rather bleak...
The two Assassins watched the video through until the officers left the screen (Cancellation of accu...). Then they watched it again. And again.
"Steve," Tango said, her voice almost dreamy, "can you look up what the Dives girl was accused of?"
"I... yes." Steve tapped away, hauling up the relevant edition of the Multiverse Monitor. "Theft of a TARDIS, interfering with a canon 'verse, dereliction of duty, damaging public property, and endangering agents' lives."
"That's... roughly what I remembered. Um." Tango drummed her fingers on the console. "This... I don't like the look of this."
"It does sound a bit like overkill," Steve agreed. "A tracking bracelet, probable imprisonment, and no pay? For making off with a TARDIS we stole to begin with?"
Tango's lip twisted. "Steve... you do remember I stole PPC technology, abandoned my job, and ran off into a canon world, yes?"
Steve stared at the video, frozen on the last view of the DIA officers. "You think they're going to come after you next?"
"Don't I have a right to worry?" Tango gripped the edge of the console with both hands. "I do not want to go back into the clutches of PPC security."
Steve pressed a hand over his wife's. "If they come for you," he said, "I'll get you out. I promise." He smiled lopsidedly. "I did last time, didn't I?"
Tango shook his hand off. "It's not just about me, though." She waved at the door, at the rest of HQ. "Nyx set off high explosives across half the multiverse. Your old partner broke canonical laws of death. Half of DOGA got there by setting canons on fire. Blue - I know they couldn't exactly arrest him now, but they have exorcism capability, I'm sure they do."
"Tang', none of those..." Steve took a breath, started over. "I know this looks bad, but the Dives girl has a lot more charges piled on her than any of you did-"
"Ontic."
"... they said she was fine now."
"Whereas Dives is still compulsively stealing TARDISes and running away? I heard that was a one-off, a snap."
Steve tried to force a laugh. "The Flowers should be thankful she didn't take a flamethrower to them."
"And if she had, they'd have sent her to FicPsych. Not locked her up and thrown away the key." Tango's face hardened. "At least - that's what they would have done before."
Steve stared at the console, at the frozen video, at the news of Dives' return, and her immediate arrest. "We should do something."
"Yes." A beat. "What?"
"... I don't know."
Assuming I could write that (hell, it's a pretty big assumption that I can write), I would get started on that immediately. It would certainly work well as a capstone to this whole business, and there's definitely potential for comedy here as well as a big happy ending. For instance, I am imagining the Reader sitting in the public gallery with a placard reading:
FREE THE GALLIFREYANOLYESTIANEARTHESEFORMERLY HUMANSOMEWHERE IN THE MIDWESTIAN
RC 3-APPLE-14 ONE!
Or something. Plus other stuff too, but we can hash the details out later.
We'd all need your help, though, since I don't really have a handle on the Flowers outside of Admiral Pansy (and even then only maybe). Hm... it's almost like an anti-Emergency, if we get enough people on it. A statement of intent: the PPC is not for those who think it's a police state, or who would like it to be one.
Come to think of it, Statement Of Intent would be a pretty good title for it too. =]
I am awake now, and full of energy. I gave the story a re-read, and here are my thoughts.
You and July are way overreacting to this. But you have some points.
First, as Ekyl stated, Rina is in a holding cell. A place of temporary confinement before she is put to trial. She has Fic Psych personnel attempting to work on her vast psychological issues while she is in said holding cell, and she is to be given a fair trial by an impartial jury (and judges, but as you stated, they have been gentle before). What about this screams police state again? The fact they had guns out when she arrived? Yes, let's approach an unknown TARDIS, a favored mode of transportation by many Sues and renegade Time Lords, with a holstered baton and a cop of tea. (That was meant to be cup, but seeing how we are talking internal police, the typo stays) The fact they used a pair of handcuffs to escort her away? So, what, just because she is an agent means she gets to skip on by without retribution of any sort? She snapped, who knows how demented she may or may not be. The cuffs are probably for her safety, as much as everyone else's. That she is in a holding cell? That boggles my mind. When in the history of ever has anybody objected to the use of a temporary holding cell, as long as the trial was relatively quick to follow. And she is heading off in a mere few days. That is pretty darn speedy to me. So, tell me, where has the DIA turned into a police state again? When did they "lock her up and throw away the key"? Why must the whole darn thing be disbanded for doing their jobs, and being rather merciful while doing so.
That all being said, there is one glaring issue, that does need addressing. The list of punishments and their likelihood. Mandatory time within ficpsych, removal of stolen TARDIS, and increased mission load would be the standard punishment. Perhaps the Flowers would understand the mission overload is what caused her to snap in the first place, and drop that punishment. Forcibly removing her new identity, the one she has spent centuries in, would be far beyond what they would ever even consider, much less the insinuation that this is the direction they will go. If that section were removed, and replaced with one of the nurses performing some psychological evaluations, I don't think we would be having any problems.
That all being said, this was very well written. It makes me sad that because of a very good story that took a turn some people disagree with, Iximaz may well step down as PG. Ix, I implore you, do reconsider. This story does not define how you see the PPC. Does not say anything about your ability to judge people's ability to write within it. Hold your hat high, be proud of what you wrote, and be thoughtful of where you go next.
You mean... the only issue I did in fact address?
The only information Steve and Tango have is 1/ the list of charges, which I've glossed as being listed in the Monitor after she left, 2/ the fact that she was arrested, and 3/ the conversation between the Guardsman and Terabyte. They don't even know she's in a cell. 'lock her up and throw away the key' is a direct reference to the line about the probability of long-term incarceration being 60%. I think it's a fair description.
hS
-r that "incarceration" could also mean inpatient treatment at FicPsych, which is more likely in Rina's case than actually being sent back to the jail. I'm sure that's a thing they can do, but when there's as wide a range of options as is available to the Board and DIA, it's pretty rare in practise. Most people who do things that would require that are probably sent to FicPsych instead - and to spend a term in there of any substantial length, you probably have to have done something really bad, like outright murder people.
That is, admittedly, just off the cuff spitballing at the moment though. I'd have to mull this over for future writing.
Is that the DIA is just holding on to her until the BoDH decides what's to be done. Though again, I probably should've pushed more for it to be clearer that FicPsych was a much likelier outcome than locking anybody up "and throwing away the key".
As for whether "police exist" means the PPC is turning into an unfeeling police state, as the person who sort of introduced the new state of the DIA with the intention of trying to go interesting places with it (I know, I know, I haven't written a bloody thing in 5 years; I keep meaning to...), I'd rather like the chance to do something with the concept rather than have it all be thrown away. I should probably hurry up and, you know, actually write stuff, but the way I've always envisioned the department, they're emphatically trying to find a balance where they're effectively defending HQ and its populace without turning into the DIS.
Not to mention that, alarmist rhetoric aside, these situations presented are rather different. Though in hindsight the way the arrest is written comes off a bit... abrupt? I would have to think on how I'd've justified it if I was writing it.
I'm not sure why everyone's bothering with all the SPOILER space when the original subject line says "She's back." But, here goes...
SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER
We knew she'd be back, of course. After all, we never saw the body, and Ix made Suspiciously Specific Denials every time someone asked her about it.
Interesting to see the DIA has got some proper holding cells since Crashing Down, and it looks like they don't seem to have a system to allow people out on bail. (No-one even mentions the possibility of bail, so they obviously don't believe it exists.) I can see why some people are a bit worried about this.
But apart from that, it was a great story. It kept me gripped wanting to see what happened next. And I can't wait to see how it develops. (I'm just hoping the Aviator won't be punished harshly.)
In honesty, the possibility wasn't something that occurred to me because, in HQ, how would it work? Money isn't much of an object in the society that's sprung up in there, so I'm not sure how it would translate.
The in-universe handwavey answer might simply be she's considered too much of a flight risk, though - or too fragile. The story does mention FicPsych is monitoring her.
POILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER
I knew it, this pepperpot would not be the end of her, but I really feared she would return much later, or end up on her fourth body right now, and I must admit I really want to see each Rina/Aviator get their own missions. I just hope we'll be seeingo see the reunion with Alex, Zeb, Xandria after the trial, it would be great to read.
Futures interactions with Des, who also ended up with the spiky side of the Stick of Accidental Transformation would be something to see too.
You are awesome Iximaz, and I'm sure your work will continue to be great.
Also, betting my left arm this interlude will not be the end of the story for Baby, she doesn't deserve this, even if she stole an PPC Agent.
Hardric, waiting for the next missions of 3-Apple-14.
I'll give you all this: it was well written. You guys did an excellent job on that matter. I certainly felt for the Reader and for the Aviator and everyone else. You did an excellent job of setting up the stage, there.
That said, I don't personally like the direction being taken with the PPC here.
To me, at least, it's much too harsh.
You're implying a level of ruthlessness I don't like, and one that, quite frankly, isn't generally seen in the spin-offs I like best. The Flowers, for the most part, don't indulge in a theatre of cruelty. The organization is ragtag; the PPC, in-universe, consists of outsiders. People who fell off the face of their home canons and worlds, people who wandered in by mistake and decided to stay. People who embraced the weirdness and chaotic. Plenty who embraced another life outside the margins. Not just the agents, but the Flowers too, if you choose to take Origins as canon as well.
Badfic missions are terrible yes, and wear on agents. But think of it this way: you, you lot aren't the first ones to write an agent having snapped, or the first one coming back. I realize that to you, Ixi, and co, that the arc is an important one. But I think you are blowing the response up far out of proportion when previous spin-offs had...
-hm.
Off the top of my head: Huinesoron's DoGA missions having Constance forcibly pry Dafydd back from the death whether anyone agreed with it or no. Result? Retirement, lots of shouting, but them still being able to come back to HQ with no problem and even choosing to keep their kids involved in the general PPC HQ culture.
Nume's former lunatic partner Cameo only being kept probably permanently in FicPsych despite being Cameo.
FR of Cupcakes fame having snapped and trying to kill his partner, but only being put through FicPsych for it before returning to duty.
And of course my Agent July, who racked up several of the same charges as Rina/Ave there, except with purposefully returning to HQ after having attacked someone, minus the Time Lordness and TARDIS. She got a stern talking to and told to go to therapy in FicPsych.
There are plenty more.
This is not an institution of rules and enforcement of that ilk. I remember one short story not too long ago that Huinesoron commented on and said similarly: the DIA in this is coming off terrifyingly harsh, and- here's where you should worry, considering whom it is coming from- militaristic. If that was your overall intent, well done, but I will have to vehemently disagree with this rendition of the DIA.
Your making as big a deal of this as it is, when compared with the previous mentions, makes me concerned about what it is exactly you are doing. We have spoken. I know your intent is not to make the Aviator Overly Special. But with the above in mind, that is what is happening with this story arc. There are already plenty of examples where agents running off into foreign parts, and sometimes tramping through things while having gone crazy is something that is accepted that happens, and treatment is given, if they choose to stay or aren't capable of making that decision. What happens in response is missions. The Flowers don't have much understanding of humanoids and humanity. Agents don't have much understanding of the Flowers That Be. Explicit sadism is something that tends to result in an unpleasant end.
I know you're trying something different. But I definitely do not like the PPC the Aviator returned to, and it is not one I write in, and I'm not in agreement with the choices you have made here for her arc and how it has turned out.
-Regretfully, a July
First of all - I understand you never said Brink was bad and/or poorly written. This is not the case here.
Next, I believe both you and Ixi are overreacting about the entire issue. She thinks she messed up bad and is trying to revoke her PG Hat for completely no reason, while you feel like she stepping over the bounds of what the PPC is supposed to be. But does anyone really know what it is supposed to be? This it is not as, like you said, "ragtag" as it originally was, but things are bound to change; people are maturing, the Organization itself develops.
It is the same thing as Doctor Who and The Sarah Jane Adventures - one more dark, one more G-rated. The PPC started as SJA and is slowly turning into DW. Yes, I know the original principle of the Organization: comedy, chaos, and a happy bunch of misfits, but this will not always be the case.
This is why the missions are spin-offs - different from the original and your vision of the PPC will always be different than, let's say, my vision of the PPC. Unless you're hoping to create some kind of position that will decide if the missions are kept in-check with one, decided version? On a sidenote, July, you may want to double-check your wording because you really made it sound negative. One line struck me in particular:
"I am not sure I like this because of the extremes the DIA are going to, which is results in a PPC I would not want to write in."
Don't you feel the 'Write-This-Like-I-Want-Or-I'll-Quit' vibe coming from this? Because I kinda do.
***
Now, for the DIA itself, let's check the Department's functions according to the wiki, shall we?
"The DIA's patrol division are known to keep watch on agents who are a little too trigger-happy (...)"
Fair enough, after THIS mission, I feel like they would keep an eye on the Second Rina.
"They are also charged with arresting and detaining agents who have (...) been marked as needing disciplinary action and have not yet been assigned any particular disciplinary route."
Don't you feel like this is exactly what happened? Yes, in Brink the Aviator's crimes were listed but this may be the one mistake that caused this entrie issue to arrive. What if that "Agent Dives, you are under arrest(...)" part didn't exist? Don't you think it's be perfect plausible for them to detain the Aviator because of the 'disciplinary action'? And why, you may ask? Well - here it is:
The issue about the Flowers - honestly, even now I have trouble with characterizing the Flowers, but can anyone really say they know exactly how a Flower is supposed to be portrayed? I don't think so.
You said the Flowers generally "don't indulge in a theatre of cruelty." Fair point, but consider who is the Flower in charge of the DIA? Tiger Lily who, according to her wiki profile, doesn't tolerate insubordination and, in one of her creator's story, is said to enjoying being in charge. And it is just as you say - the Flowers don't understand humanity - Tiger Lily didn't understand Rina's regeneration, near-death experience and three (!) Legendary Badfics taken down in a really short amount of time. Add a Bleeprin deprivation and you'll get a mind more fragile than a soap bubble. The Flower just saw her as a rogue and ordered her incarceration to cement her authority in the Department. This, as hS pointed out, would be a great spark to a new arc in PPC history. A civil war, per se.
***
Now, my opinion on the interlude is irrelevant here, so I'll keep it to myself. The point is, while this was probably not Ixi's aim - she presented us with a hint that things in the PPC may not exactly be as pink and easy as we'd like them to be. This is why I disagree with your view on the PPC but hey, you've been here much longer than me, maybe you're right after all. I am not afraid to admit my mistakes, so let's see how things will evolve.
I know you were responding to July, but I'd like to respond to some of the points you made.
This is why the missions are spin-offs - different from the original and your vision of the PPC will always be different than, let's say, my vision of the PPC. Unless you're hoping to create some kind of position that will decide if the missions are kept in-check with one, decided version?
The problem with this point of view is that we are not discussing the tone of individual spin-offs, but the portrayal of shared elements in the PPC universe. Agents are as varied as the day is long, but those shared elements should be consistent and fit the PPC canon. Those are the parts that should be decided.
[…]can anyone really say they know exactly how a Flower is supposed to be portrayed? I don't think so.
Yes, someone can. That's because many of the Flowers have preexisting characterizations. We know how they speak and how they will react to different situations. Apart from those Flowers that have only been mentioned a few times, they are known entities. You can't pretend they're blank slates.
Fair point, but consider who is the Flower in charge of the DIA? Tiger Lily who, according to her wiki profile, doesn't tolerate insubordination and, in one of her creator's story, is said to enjoying being in charge.
"Strict" does not and should not immediately translate to "cruel."
The Flower just saw her as a rogue and ordered her incarceration to cement her authority in the Department.
This makes no sense. Why would the Tiger Lily order an agent's arrest to solidify her own authority? She doesn't need to prove anything. The Flowers are pretty much unchecked in their own dominions. The Aviator wasn't trying to usurp the Tiger Lily.
This, as hS pointed out, would be a great spark to a new arc in PPC history. A civil war, per se.
A civil war. Really? Please tell me you are speaking in jest. That strikes me as an extremely bad idea outside of AUs.
If that is an impression that's come across, that's an error in how information has been presented, not how the state of things is supposed to be. And I don't see "detain this rogue, possibly dangerous agent pending the Board's decision re: what to do with her" as all that cruel personally.
I acknowledge all the responses.
And yes, the civil war was the closest to a joke I could do right now.
That's why details like it being noted FicPsych is watching Rina are important. This has all happened pretty quickly and they're not just kicking her around for sport or anything, they're trying to get the full story and make sure she's looked after too. At least, that's where I was going with things when doing various beta-y stuff/giving my input on how the DIA would probably operate.
Also, I do think it's perfectly fair for them to have told Rina exactly why she's being detained - unless people are objecting to the very concept of arrests being a thing, I suppose. The way I look at it is that she stole a PPC TARDIS (I do agree with hS on one thing - why do we even still have those?), went on a rampage in a canon universe doing the kinds of things agents kill Sues for, then after centuries of shenanigans crash landed in the Cafeteria atrium and nearly crushed several agents doing it. This is less stopping someone from trying to leave the PPC, and more taking exception to going AWOL and causing the exact kinds of problems the PPC tries to stop. Of course, things probably shouldn't've shifted from "are you okay? We're here to help!" to "YOU'RE UNDER ARREST!" within the space of two lines.
RinAviator didn't go "on a rampage in a canon universe doing the kinds of things agents kill Sues for", unless you count wandering aimlessly and keeping her head down as a charge. She didn't go running around getting up to insane stuff because she didn't want to draw attention to herself. A few small adventures at the very most, nothing even remotely major.
At the time, I thought her various misadventures had been more, well, major. You commented on them thinking she was turning into a Sue because she was acting like someone out of a badfic and that didn't seem like something indicating a low profile being kept. But that's fair.
Because, well...
>Girl discovers fandoms are real
>Girl goes on to slay legendary fic
>Girl gets turned into a Time Lord
>Girl goes crazy
>Girl disobeys regulations
>Girl slays another legendary
>Girl finally snaps
>Girl steals a TARDIS and runs away
>Girl finds out she's caught up in a time loop
So it all piles up. Her glitter levels have been rising fairly steadily for a while now; that is why she's getting a Sue tracker slapped on her.
However, I think you did a good job of setting a true backstory for Rina, and if you study her story in depth, the glitter level drop fast, in my opinion to the least.
The scenes from her childhood are harsh, and she get real consequences for it, depression, self-harm and a Generic psychiatrist (Generic because if it was only the armchair, medications, no wonder she hate FicPsych).
Slay a Legendary, but with her rookie partner, a partner who "died" because of her (does Zeb know it, now ?), nevermind the ugly implications that Nuzlockers "kill" their other Pokemons this way... I need stop thinking about it
I read Tawaki's take about Time Lord transformation after Rose Potter, for the sake of comparison. Rina's transformation was not a plot device. It was special, but it was not free candy, It never was free candy.
Perfect memory + no Bleep + issues about herself (human life now impossible, being caught between being Time Lord and huùman, ...) + glitterbags trivializing her issues... no wonder they killed this one Sue before LMM.
Other Legendary is maximum squick, she's so broken that self-harming verges on suicide, the cocktail Bleep + Aspirin would not forgive.
She snaps, after her partner die for, and die because of her, for the second time. And it's only an first taste of her future with her family. Too much despair and pain, she flees this, for the simple reason she cannot handle it.
The time loop hold the very distinct probability of her death, she felt it weighting upon her long before she understood there was a time loop in the first place, and it's not something solved without pain (how many time she passed in this blender ?).
She's acting like a Time Lord now because, well, she's a Time Lord now. It' was her only choice for keeping her sanity: she cannot be human anymore, and staying between the two lifes only lead to suffering. It's not an easy way, it's the only way.
Rina Dives/ the Aviator is not a Sue, she'll never be a Sue. She paid every single change who happened to her, nothing granted to her like free candy. Her problems are very real, and the way I'm seeing things, centuries were needed for them. She's like Pyrrha Nikos for me, she sure looks like a Sue, but she has a real story, the changes who happened to her were well-written, the issues were made clear.
The Aviator is not Suvian in any sense of the term. It's only my opinion,but you handled her history in wonderful way, Iximaz (wow, didn't think it would take so much place).
It's not quite as severe as initially painted then, but I do feel the circumstances mean it's not exactly extreme that the DIA would have orders to bring her in.
Considering they're responding to a possible threat in a PPC that has already seen multiple instances of being invaded or hit by canon nasties breaking in or what-have-you, a cautionary response with the hammer ready to be dropped seemed to make sense. This wasn't a DIS style "we're going to drag you kicking and screaming into Central just to watch you bleed" kind of thing and I'm not sure it's all that ruthless considering one of the highest probability penalties is basically "we'll be keeping an eye on you". When I gave the go ahead for stuff, I did it in the frame of mind that they're reacting to something they might or might not be very dangerous, so they're trying to protect the agents who all almost got a TARDIS crashed on top of them. Ruthless would be they kicked down the door and shot her in the face, not gone "would you please come with us?" Also, you bring up FicPsych, which was mentioned in the story. I personally feel your typical agent who pulls something like this is more likely to be kept in FicPsych than thrown in jail; most of the time when something like this happens, it's because somebody's snapped, not out of malice or anything, and especially considering Aviator's mental state that's what makes most sense. I did try to stress during betaing that that should be made more clear.
(It's probably not the best first impression of DIA Special Response, because that's them basically acting like a SWAT team, whereas most of the time they're bailing agents out of missions gone bad and stuff. Patrol officers are probably a little more easygoing than their SRD counterparts most of the time; SeaTurtle once asked me what kind of equipment the DIA likes to carry, and IIRC I said your typical Patrol guy probably likes something like a phaser or a stun blaster or a Potterverse wand that can immediately end a confrontation without anyone sustaining real injury. Though that said, sometimes a job calls for something heavier.)
I think that the possibility of actual trouble for things is not mutually exclusive with the kind of PPC thing you like - however, things evolving should be allowed to happen, and whether it's a good thing, well, that can always be story fodder rather than "this should not exist at all." I could see arguments for and against, say, the PPC having its own police department. I could even see something like this being a debate being held in Central itself, which I might do something with (though since hS writes Dúros I couldn't feature the TL and both lieutenants talking about it without his okay/participation).
(I do agree the officer in that courtyard story was way out of line and I don't feel the DIA would ever consider that acceptable behaviour from one of its own, though. My comment on that is what got me brought in as a beta for this story.)
One possible solution, which I'll work on, is writing stuff showing that lighter side still exists, and it's not all grimness and people getting put in jail. The first DIA story I wrote, for example, had a bunch of officers on their off time having fun and talking about helping people - and Basil chewing a guy out for being too harsh and putting people at unacceptable risk. It's definitely something that could make for interesting writing if allowed to exist, and this debate - some people feeling it's all too much, others not, and all that - could be just as interesting in-universe as out of universe. Of course, in universe, at the end of the day if the DIA exists in its current form it's because the BoDH allows it, so they mustn't see it as that severe a problem - but again, this is something I plan to use as writing fodder.
(This actually gave me a specific idea, too. I could easily see some in Patrol seeing the Special Response boys as a little overeager to break out the toys and drop the hammer. The issue is definitely not as severe as some World One departments are accused of being -- no unarmed civilians are being gunned down in the middle of a corridor for example -- but it's definitely something I could work with if people allow. I might be half rambling and half brainstorming though, I'm like half-asleep. I do sorta want to do a spinoff playing with both the absurdities and more serious aspects of "protecting the Protectors" and all that though; I'm sure there's never a dull day with that job.)
Pardon the giant wall of text, but I'm basically thinking aloud about multiple things.
Ekyl, I have heard plenty about your behavior regarding your "betaing" of this story, and your treatment of its writers.
For the record? The stuff you were doing is bullying.
Your forced your own ideas onto the writers who weren't exactly eager about it. You overrode them multiple times on their own story to push your own concepts into the spotlight.
You have replied and defended the actions of the DIA as written in this more than anyone else involved with writing this, and have generally refused to accept that it a) isn't behavior associated with the DIA prior to you pushing for it and b) keep insisting this is largely totally fine while delfecting what was written onto Iximaz and co.
This is not okay.
You do not own the DIA. You did not come up with the concept. In your attempt to find something in the PPC to "make your own" you have worked very, very hard at warping something beyond recognition to the people who originally had an idea of what it was about.
I heavily suspect that at this point in time I have written more for the DIA proper than you, and that was one silly interlude to just introduce an idea into the PPC at large! You cannot and should not ride on the coattails of other boarders to make the things you want to have happen happen.
So please, knock this behavior off. You have been called out on it in the past, and I am extremely disappointed that you are pulling this sort of thing again. I honestly thought you had gotten better about it, but apparently it was just because I know how to tell you when to quit when I ask for your advice and you're willing to stop, but not when it comes to newer writers whom you are able to shove around more to make your ideas happen.
-July
That said, I would rather have this conversation privately if it must happen -- in part, because I won't have my name dragged through the mud in front of the entire community, and in part because I'm not sure how to address your concerns without sounding like I'm deflecting blame and throwing people under the bus, which is not what I am attempting to do.
Quite honestly, the series of events as you portray them isn't exactly how things have gone down, although I will admit I've been a bit gung ho about defending certain things when maybe that isn't really my place since all I am is the beta of the story (I wrote a tiny little bit, because I was asked to, but wasn't a real contributor to the story except as an editor). If I've allowed my defensiveness over one aspect of the story to override Iximaz, I apologise for that but it wasn't intentional, and I've hardly "bullied" anyone; in fact, one of the biggest changes I suggested to the story was overridden by the authors, and I didn't fight it (well, okay, I was a little resistant and made a comment along the lines of "I wish you had kept me in the loop when you decided this," but I backed down rather than make it my hill to die on; at worst, I was a bit annoyed about it). I'm not sure if you've been given an incomplete idea of what's been going on, or a deliberately misleading one.
When I was brought in, it was to do a couple things: Ix wanted me to look over if her ideas for what the DIA would do fit my vision of how they're supposed to work (read: I tried to make them not seem super evil and authoritarian while still allowing the gist to be there - I still do not think it's an inherently bad thing that these days, sometimes people get arrested, but see other comments where I say in hindsight it does feel like it was a bit too abrupt and FicPsych being involved should've been clearer/more prominent) and then to help sharpen up the story in general. The overall content of the story did not change from when I first started looking at it to when the story was published; the only new thing from wholecloth is the TARDIS crash scene, which I'd initially suggested might make a stronger opening. Plotwise, and in terms of most of the dialogue and such, everything after Reader enters the TARDIS (except for the "we're here and ready to help" message from the DIA who think she's trapped in there) is more or less exactly how it was before, though some of the superficial details (it all happening outside the vehicle, etc) have changed. The scene ended up staying but the original intro was put back in; whether that works better is subjective, but I didn't want to fight it. For the most part, I suggested structural and stylistic changes, which ended up being made or not made, and did not mess with the overall plot of the story - everything that happened is what was happening when I was first called in (I think the biggest difference is the scene in Rudi's got rewritten entirely). To say I bullied my way in and forced the story to look how I wanted it to look is false - and again, I don't know if it's a misunderstanding, or people outright lying. Maybe it should have occurred to me to suggest some things, like the conversation between Guardsman and Terabyte, be trimmed out? Who knows, maybe it would have helped, but I did my best to help turn out a good story without taking things over; occasionally there were disagreements over suggested edits or a turn things were taking, or whether certain scenes should be present (I strongly felt the TARDIS scene at the start was just exposition and slowed things down, but backed down from that) but I in fact tried to do the exact opposite of what you accuse me of. When I'm betaing somebody's story, I do my very best to be helpful and improve things as much as possible, and I am outright insulted that you would level these accusations at me - in fact, I consider them borderline libellous. Especially when you launch into some tirade about how the only reason I have changed is you "told me to knock it off" -- over the years I have tried very hard to become a better person, I have done a lot of growing up, and I acknowledge that's not really a journey that ever ends but I will not be told it was all nothing because of an argument on the damn internet. Even here, to say I have not changed is to be deliberately obtuse and to intentionally disregard years of behaviour that has changed for the better, and I will not be publicly insulted in such a manner.
As for the DIA: I have been defensive of them because I was called in to check over their MO and put in some of the groundwork for how they're operating, so of course I would defend the validity and existence of what's there. I've tried to go to bat for Ix's story a bit, because she went into full "I'm sorry I'll leave forever" mode. I apologise if I've overstepped my bounds in so doing, however. All I've been trying to say is that maybe it deserves to be given a chance, especially since it's not like I'm not working on things that would paint a more reasonable picture of them, and I simply disagree that them being willing to arrest somebody means they're as evil and authoritarian and "grimdark" as you and hS maintain. You say I just arbitrarily went ahead and did things with no mind for people who "know how it's supposed to work" or whatever because I was so desperate to make my mark, but when I first came up with these ideas I only went ahead with anything with permission from and discussion with hS. I'll grant this was years ago and might have slipped from memory, but I remember you hearing about this so it feels to me as if you are being deliberately unfair. It is entirely possible, though, that it is simply fresher to my memory. Now, does what's being written wholly match up with how I've envisioned things? No. There have been in fact several things I disagree with of late, though I evidently didn't catch all of them. However, I still feel the need to call for things to at least be given a chance. If I'm a little protective of the DIA, I apologise, but I don't like something I've worked on being discarded as rubbish that shouldn't exist any more than I like the language you employ towards my own person, which makes me out to be some tumourous influence, especially when I have tried to take great care over the years to prevent a situation exactly like this (this is, in fact, why nothing is finished), and have been working on projects I hope will present a more reasonable view of the department. I will also note you ascribe more control over the process to me than there actually was - you act as if I wrote major sections of this story wholecloth, as opposed to basically answering the question "does this make sense y/n".
I am sorry if I come off as excessively angry, but let's not mince words: right now I am trying my best not to be, but I am incredibly hurt that you would say these things to me. You have made some good points but you've also stepped over practically every line on the bloody road, and I apologise for how I might have come off, but I will not be treated this way, by you or anyone else here. I expect a full apology from you for insulting me so severely, and so publicly. I am especially hurt, because I thought you and I were mending things - but I see you hold the same contempt for me as ever. I'm not angry with you, July, I'm just very, very disappointed.
"That said, I would rather have this conversation privately if it must happen -- in part, because I won't have my name dragged through the mud in front of the entire community, and in part because I'm not sure how to address your concerns without sounding like I'm deflecting blame and throwing people under the bus, which is not what I am attempting to do."
I was not trying to drag your name through the mud in front of the entire community. I pointed out behavior that is very prominent at this moment in time. As far as deflecting blame you have been doing that for quite a bit of this thread.
"Quite honestly, the series of events as you portray them isn't exactly how things have gone down,"
Strange. Then the several people who have told me the same thing at separate occasions must have been exaggerating the exact same way?
"although I will admit I've been a bit gung ho about defending certain things when maybe that isn't really my place since all I am is the beta of the story (I wrote a tiny little bit, because I was asked to, but wasn't a real contributor to the story except as an editor)."
While ignoring everything else that is not DIA related about the criticisms yes.
"If I've allowed my defensiveness over one aspect of the story to override Iximaz, I apologise for that but it wasn't intentional, and I've hardly "bullied" anyone; in fact, one of the biggest changes I suggested to the story was overridden by the authors, and I didn't fight it (well, okay, I was a little resistant and made a comment along the lines of "I wish you had kept me in the loop when you decided this," but I backed down rather than make it my hill to die on; at worst, I was a bit annoyed about it). I'm not sure if you've been given an incomplete idea of what's been going on, or a deliberately misleading one."
So you had not disappeared on at least one occasion causing me to field at least two freakouts about what should they do, they told Ekyl something he disagreed with and when they said they wanted to keep it you made a comment about their attitudes and vanished without telling them anything?
"When I was brought in, it was to do a couple things: Ix wanted me to look over if her ideas for what the DIA would do fit my vision of how they're supposed to work (read: I tried to make them not seem super evil and authoritarian while still allowing the gist to be there - I still do not think it's an inherently bad thing that these days, sometimes people get arrested, but see other comments where I say in hindsight it does feel like it was a bit too abrupt and FicPsych being involved should've been clearer/more prominent) and then to help sharpen up the story in general."
I was under the impression she asked for help to make it match the PPC, given you are supposed to know the universe and made commentary previous. I think the resident Elf Lord was involved too as far as advice seeking went? I do not know. It is late and I just accidentally titled Huinesoron. Dangerous hour, midnight.
And... the gist being... super evil and authoritarian? I do not understand. Evil is an inherently bad thing, and so is authoritarianism in nearly every case outside of a few.
"The overall content of the story did not change from when I first started looking at it to when the story was published; the only new thing from wholecloth is the TARDIS crash scene, which I'd initially suggested might make a stronger opening. Plotwise, and in terms of most of the dialogue and such, everything after Reader enters the TARDIS (except for the "we're here and ready to help" message from the DIA who think she's trapped in there) is more or less exactly how it was before, though some of the superficial details (it all happening outside the vehicle, etc) have changed."
I've seen the first few drafts at this point in time. I cannot comment on where in the timeline you got involved. I am sure if we asked to see it it would reveal some interesting differences, no?
"The scene ended up staying but the original intro was put back in; whether that works better is subjective, but I didn't want to fight it."
Except as I am aware, you had?
"For the most part, I suggested structural and stylistic changes, which ended up being made or not made, and did not mess with the overall plot of the story - everything that happened is what was happening when I was first called in (I think the biggest difference is the scene in Rudi's got rewritten entirely)."
I cannot comment on this, besides that again, I heard much in the ways of the writers being frustrated and worried about some of the things you were insisting on despite their lack of surety, and their being put down when suggested changes by you were turned down, or they suggested doing something you were against.
"To say I bullied my way in and forced the story to look how I wanted it to look is false - and again, I don't know if it's a misunderstanding, or people outright lying."
I do not understand; are you saying your word is stronger than that of several different people, whom had no reason to bad mouth you, looked up to you, and had asked you for your advice because they were under the impression you would help them? None of them had any reason to lie to me. Again none of them knew they were speaking to me separately. It's awfully strange to think they would have the same delusion, don't you think?
"Maybe it should have occurred to me to suggest some things, like the conversation between Guardsman and Terabyte, be trimmed out? Who knows, maybe it would have helped, but I did my best to help turn out a good story without taking things over; occasionally there were disagreements over suggested edits or a turn things were taking, or whether certain scenes should be present (I strongly felt the TARDIS scene at the start was just exposition and slowed things down, but backed down from that) but I in fact tried to do the exact opposite of what you accuse me of."
The writers are always the final word. Not the beta reader.
"When I'm betaing somebody's story, I do my very best to be helpful and improve things as much as possible, and I am outright insulted that you would level these accusations at me - in fact, I consider them borderline libellous."
I'm surprised! I wasn't aware anything I said was libel, given what I have presented thus far! I apologize for the requiring such accusations.
"Especially when you launch into some tirade about how the only reason I have changed is you "told me to knock it off" -- over the years I have tried very hard to become a better person, I have done a lot of growing up, and I acknowledge that's not really a journey that ever ends but I will not be told it was all nothing because of an argument on the damn internet."
Didn't say that. The context for me telling you to knock it off was entirely in the scope of your suggestions to me for my own work in progress! As you should know I do not share things randomly. I asked you because I valued your advice in that situation! Alas that you think I was implying I was the source of all your growth and had work at becoming a better person! I would never dream of such. I had asked because I thought you had grown as a person!
"Even here, to say I have not changed is to be deliberately obtuse and to intentionally disregard years of behaviour that has changed for the better, and I will not be publicly insulted in such a manner."
Ok. But I'm not. That is why I was entirely shocked to find all this out.
"As for the DIA: I have been defensive of them because I was called in to check over their MO and put in some of the groundwork for how they're operating, so of course I would defend the validity and existence of what's there."
Yes, this is what you have done. But I thought you were invited in to, again, make sure it matched for the PPC tone.
"I've tried to go to bat for Ix's story a bit, because she went into full "I'm sorry I'll leave forever" mode. I apologise if I've overstepped my bounds in so doing, however. All I've been trying to say is that maybe it deserves to be given a chance, especially since it's not like I'm not working on things that would paint a more reasonable picture of them, and I simply disagree that them being willing to arrest somebody means they're as evil and authoritarian and "grimdark" as you and hS maintain."
You did? By and large you have been defending the DIA elements only. Also, a correction. Neither of us have used the words evil, authoritarian, or grimdark. The closest to even using the word "grimdark" was PoorCynic! And he wasn't even talking about the DIA there. Only mopey angsty Time Lords.
"You say I just arbitrarily went ahead and did things with no mind for people who "know it's supposed to work" or whatever because I was so desperate to make my mark, but when I first came up with these ideas I only went ahead with anything with permission from and discussion with hS."
Well, not arbitrarily at all. And I think the point is that no, they didn't. Which is why they asked you. And I can't speak for hS, as I am not Elven and have no mind powers whatsoever, but I believe his lordship's view of the DIA aligned with that of its creator, Artemis, who was all about scooping the flamethrower agents up and depositing them into the Kudzu's caring, alarmingly enveloping tendrils. Mine too, but I don't actually go there. Oh wait, I have a DIA agent too. I guess I am accidentally invested in only goose stepping at work? Wait, I'm in the navy, I can't march for the life of me. That's everyone else.
"I'll grant this was years ago and might have slipped from memory, but I remember you hearing about this so it feels to me as if you are being deliberately unfair. It is entirely possible, though, that it is simply fresher to my memory. Now, does what's being written wholly match up with how I've envisioned things? No. There have been in fact several things I disagree with of late, though I evidently didn't catch all of them."
It is late at night and I would enjoy clarification? How am I being deliberately unfair? What is this about years ago? I do not understand and this is vague enough that the many third parties reading this are no doubt confused as well about what you are implying.
"However, I still feel the need to call for things to at least be given a chance. If I'm a little protective of the DIA, I apologise, but I don't like something I've worked on being discarded as rubbish that shouldn't exist any more than I like the language you employ towards my own person, which makes me out to be some tumourous influence, especially when I have tried to take great care over the years to prevent a situation exactly like this (this is, in fact, why nothing is finished), and have been working on projects I hope will present a more reasonable view of the department."
I never called it rubbish. I am interested in hearing where you are pulling this from. Nor was my language particularly harsh towards you in the first place. I am quite surprised.
I don't think "tumor" is the correct word here. Not that negative, certainly.
It would certainly be a step up if you had DIA works to show proof of purchase with, so to say. I think.
"I will also note you ascribe more control over the process to me than there actually was - you act as if I wrote major sections of this story wholecloth, as opposed to basically answering the question "does this make sense y/n"."
I did not? Unless you are some powerful slightly terrifying puppet master. All I can go off is that several younger and more easily influenced PPCers looked up to you, decided to ask your aid, and then were given an extremely hard time from the sound of it.
I seem to recollect at least one incident where you told them their deadline didn't matter, what mattered was that you felt it was finished? Strange thing for the beta to say, I think, when it should be the author calling that shot.
"I am sorry if I come off as excessively angry, but let's not mince words: right now I am trying my best not to be, but I am incredibly hurt that you would say these things to me."
Ok. I'm feeling rather hurt too. I wasn't expecting to be accused of so many things or to see people I have been keeping an eye on be accused of so many things, which largely seem to involve conspiring against your good name with lots of uncoordinated lying.
"You have made some good points but you've also stepped over practically every line on the bloody road, and I apologise for how I might have come off, but I will not be treated this way, by you or anyone else here."
Out of curiosity where exactly are these lines? Do they involve the ones where you repeatedly put words in my mouth here and elsewhere? Since I had called you out on that previously already.
“I expect a full apology from you for insulting me so severely, and so publicly."
I am very very sorry that I insulted you severely to the point where you felt the need to make baseless accusations against others to right the perceived wrongs against you. Next time I will try to avoid inducing collateral damage, because it is never fun to calm down crying girls at odd hours of the day and sometimes night. It's quite awkward, you see, when I had told them previously I had used you myself for assistance.
“I am especially hurt, because I thought you and I were mending things - but I see you hold the same contempt for me as ever. I'm not angry with you, July, I'm just very, very disappointed.”
I was under the impression we were as well! Does this mean you are no longer willing to provide additional advice and counsel on the story I am planning to work on? My apologies. I suppose I will have to look elsewhere for more suggestions to not make the DIA irrelevant to the PPC in the course of the story. This will be somewhat difficult, because His Elflordliness Huinesoron is very easily distracted and very bad at replying to email in a timely fashion.
Thank you very much for taking the time to reply to me as thoroughly as you did, however. I greatly appreciate it, seeing how I know how busy we all are these days.
If I meant that, I would have said it outright. Though I question if you really think my input has any value, since apparently I am nothing but a villain, a bully, and a liar from where you stand. That would make working with you on your story very difficult, I'm sure you agree.
I'm having quite a difficult time following everything you're trying to say, since it seems to be changing quite a bit.
I'm not even sure at which point I called you a villain, though I did use the word "bullied" (though it is not necessarily automatically linked to accusing someone of being a bully themselves) and I did say it was strange that you said they were perhaps lying, when it would make for quite the mass delusion, though I don't recall specifying you as lying at any point.
Since you are under the impression at this point in time, I suppose I shall have to remove you from the list of people with access to the document in question, which is a shame indeed since you do have useful input, at times. How dire.
"I was under the impression we were as well! Does this mean you are no longer willing to provide additional advice and counsel on the story I am planning to work on? My apologies. I suppose I will have to look elsewhere for more suggestions to not make the DIA irrelevant to the PPC in the course of the story. This will be somewhat difficult, because His Elflordliness Huinesoron is very easily distracted and very bad at replying to email in a timely fashion."
To which I replied that I was still willing to help out, if there was a point in so doing.
"That would make working with you on your story very difficult, I'm sure you agree."
Which appears to very much not be the case of saying you are willing to help out if there is any point in doing so, as you say.
Are we playing Mass Confusion?
It seems to be the situation.
Is this evident conviction that I am nothing but a bully and a liar.
This is turning into a farce. You know how to reach me privately if you wish to continue this conversation.
I'm used to deciphering overly-complicated things — I do that for fun while tackling epistemological questions — but, well, I got nothing in this case. Your replies are so disconnected from what July, Ix and Scape are saying I just can't get what's going on here. I honestly can't get what some of the posts are meant to say.
Well, except for one thing. You seem determined to paint yourself as a victim. You put words in others' mouth for that end; you're insinuating Iximaz is trying to do a character assassination on you.
Your lastest post seems like an attempt to shift the blame to Scapegrace, who, despite having her own problems, tries to do better (cf. this and this).
You? You're either being even more complicated than philosophical ramblings about methods of discerning reality or being purposefully obfuscating. Either way, you're not addressing the points July is raising.
What's more, when your posts aren't confusing they're worded in an insulting way, which makes me think the latter option is the right one.
~Des
"So you had not disappeared on at least one occasion causing me to field at least two freakouts about what should they do, they told Ekyl something he disagreed with and when they said they wanted to keep it you made a comment about their attitudes and vanished without telling them anything?"
Not quite true. Yeah, he vanished a few times in the middle of betaing (though one was a genuine emergency, so *shrug*), but what I want to comment on is the second part.
He didn't vanish, just called me a liar several times and threatened to leave the project even though he knew we needed him to finish the story.
The only time I said anything about leaving the project was at the very end - I told you I was in a bad place with my real life and could no longer give the story my full attention, and was thus stepping down. I even apologised to you about it. This had been going on the whole time I was working with you, in fact, but I did my best to put as much of my energy into the story as I could; it just so happened I could no longer do it, and that had nothing to do with you or the story itself. I simply no longer felt I could continue, and that to try would just be wasting your time. There were about four people betaing this story, and so I figured one of them stepping down would not harm anything at that late point in the work.
Should I have stepped down sooner? Maybe, but I wanted to do the best I could for you and the story. Since, according to Scape, I was neither needed nor wanted, I would have appreciated you sparing my time and energy, especially when you proceeded to lie to my face while making me out to be the devil himself behind my back. If you had these concerns, I was available to talk to about them whenever you so desired. You could have said something; as an editor, once I'm on a roll it's hard to stop me, which seems to be what's happened, but you could have resolved the whole thing by talking to me about it honestly. I thought we were even developing a rapport, and I would have been happy to talk to you about your concerns, but apparently I was mistaken.
As I said to Scape, since this is how you feel, and you think so lowly of me, feel free to take my name off this story and remove anything I contributed to it. Apparently I added nothing of value anyway.
(An aside: Something like what you say might have occurred when there was that brief dustup about the intro? I honestly don't remember. What I do remember is it was a heat of the moment thing and everything was resolved quickly and amicably. I do remember saying you'd been dishonest, but that was because you said outright you only pretended to like what I suggested to avoid having to talk about it - I do indeed consider that dishonesty, and I stand behind feeling that being unwilling to discuss things honestly with one's beta reader makes the entire process pointless. Both author and editor are wasting their time in such a scenario.)
Correction received!
It can be sometimes difficult to keep track of this sort of thing when so many people are telling you things.
Throughout this entire thing, I've been on the sidelines. I've been a beta on Brink for nearly every version, and I have seen so many changes to the story within these long eight months. For a while, one version was very close to completion; this was about a month ago, around the time that LMM and the stuff after it occurred. After all of the issues surrounding the DIA and the dark nature of it in general, everything changed once again. In order to avoid another situation, the entire story (and almost everything that came after!) had to be changed. So the team decided to bring in someone with more experience in the DIA, AKA you.
I hadn't taken a look at the doc much during this time - it had been a week or two without any changes. It was very nearly done, and superb in quality. Emotion was there, characterization was there, you could feel how each style blended as each author contributed their heart and soul into writing Brink. It was good. The only thing that needed some more polishing was the DIA section, which was why you were invited.
That is not what you limited yourself to.
Essentially, you "suggested" a lot of things in a highly passive-aggressive way that changed the entire dynamic of the story. Both the opening and the endings received heavy changes, some very touching scenes and interactions were removed (in particular, the Guardsman giving peace to the fallen Time Lords as brothers and sisters-in-arms), and a lot of the suggestions you made for "polishing" reasons straight-up took that unique style out of the story. For lack of a better term, it was sterilized. Too precise. And both Desdendelle and I said as much after all of that. I was up for quite a while some nights talking to Ixi because she needed to vent her frustrations with you, and that's why I was present for a lot of the final editing sessions; as support and an extra voice so she would feel able to stand up to you. Whether or not you see it, you WERE being forceful with your suggestions. That biggest change you mentioned earlier was reimplementing the entire opening, which you insisted on cutting; when the authors came to a consensus to add it back in, you did not say something along the lines of "I wish you had kept me in the loop", your exact words were "It's much weaker with this in. Even (Iximaz) agreed when we made the change, so what changed your mind?" After it was explained that this was due to comments from three other betas (including me) who liked the first version better, and Ix specifically stated that she wasn't actually in agreement, she just didn't want to say no, you then said "...that makes the whole process pointless. If you don't like my suggestions, don't lie to me about it."
I can easily name about 20 occasions before then that she had shied away from disagreeing. And that's just her, I can't speak for the other contributors.
Please do not take this as a personal attack. That is not my intention. But you DID change the story heavily, with quite a few choice words if things were changed back; never fully aggressive, but passive. Whether you see it or not, I did, and I am only saying this as an observer who has been watching this whole thing and listening to his friend when she needed someone to talk to because she was frustrated. She has shown immense self-control in dealing with you. I tend to be very internet-shy. I don't post often. But I am speaking up now because this matters to me.
And yes, I was rather angry about being left out of the loop. You'll remember that was resolved rather quickly though - I was hurt by Ix thinking I didn't deserve to be told "I disagree" to my face. That's what offended me, not people wanting to go back to the previous version, and I remember you being present for me telling people that much.
You weren't invited to comment on anything other than the DIA sections, and you promptly demanded whole sections to be changed that were not even remotely within your purview. You made niggly little stylistic changes and threw tantrums when the author, whose style is both different to and a damned sight more interesting than yours by some distance, changed them back. I recall similar behaviour when you betaed my first mission, which is getting on for two years ago now, and my memory is atrocious so there must have been something going on.
Simply put, you shoved yourself into places where your advice was neither required nor wanted and demanded that the story follow your vision rather than that of the person actually writing it. You can bet your life I'm never going to let you near anything else of mine, and I hope any newer people reading this learn better than to have you as a beta without adult supervision.
At no point was this stated by anyone to be the case. If I was not wanted otherwise, there was ample opportunity to say so and it would have been an easy matter to address. Not only was this not addressed, but I was in fact told I was welcome to act as a beta.
However, if I'm apparently the Great Satan, you can feel free to remove my name from the story, and the bits I contributed.
"At no point was this stated by anyone to be the case. If I was not wanted otherwise, there was ample opportunity to say so and it would have been an easy matter to address."
Oh, believe you me, there were plenty of times I asked the others to kick you out of the project. You can thank DawnFire and SeaTurtle for their incredible BS tolerance, because there were many, many nights I was tearing my hair out and trying to not tell you to get the hell out of the doc.
I didn't do it out of politeness to you. I did it because DF and ST are my friends.
"Not only was this not addressed, but I was in fact told I was welcome to act as a beta."
You were welcome to act as a consultant for the parts involving the DIA. Again, when I called for you to be kicked out, I was told no. You're welcome.
"However, if I'm apparently the Great Satan, you can feel free to remove my name from the story, and the bits I contributed."
You have no idea how much I would love to do that.
But Plans have been Set In Motion. So I shan't.
...Surely you can see how me not being aware of the problem would, in fact, lead to the problem not being solved? That it would just make things worse? I was available to speak to whenever you wished, it did not need to get to this point. I am not the thug you think I am.
I don't hate you, but apparently you hate me, so much that you would make me out to be a monster to the whole PPC. I am very disappointed by that.
I have tried writing this post about 5 times now. But every time, it did not accurately portray my thoughts. Your behavior has gotten me riled up enough that I am quite literally at a loss for words. I don't know what to say anymore. But I will try anyway.
With this post, you are being quite hypocritical. You state that you're being made out to be a "monster", and yet you're trying to do the exact same thing by essentially stating that it's everyone else's fault for not calling you out sooner. That everyone is out to get you, that it's their fault it came to all of this. By implying that others are trying to demonize you, you are attempting to take the moral high ground. You're hiding your jabs behind a mask of civility. So here is what I have to say: you're still not aware of the problem, despite being told multiple times. This is not on them. You're ignoring your own words and behavior, and shifting the blame.
You've gone from defending Iximaz to claiming she hates you and wants to make you look bad in front of the whole PPC (something you're more than capable of doing on your own, I might add). I was wondering about that, and then I remembered who was doing all this and stopped wondering.
It was never about Brink. It was never about defending Iximaz. It was about you. Always, always you.
So no, I don't think you're a thug. I think you're an objectionable, self-important narcissist. And while I sincerely hope you're capable of changing and becoming a halfway decent beta, I'm not going to hold my breath.
Stop hurling insults. You've been warned about it before. It is against the rules of the community and it is entirely unacceptable.
Stop it.
-Phobos
I should have been able to express my opinion without name-calling. I'll endeavour to do better in future.
She crossed a line, yes.
But considering your behavior here, and in the past, you don't precisely have room to talk.
Glass houses, Ekyl.
You're absolutely right.
I'll take this to heart and take a long look at my future stories, rework them to be more in line with what the PPC should be.
I should have known better. I should have known that this goes against everything the PPC stands for. It's my job as a PG to know what does and doesn't fit in the spirit of the PPC, and I just proved I don't. So I'm going to resign, hang up my hat, or give it back, however it works. It was my job to lead by example, and I set a pretty crummy one.
I'm sorry.
I did not initially want to respond to this* - it looks like an argument about canon, which, because canon is very dear to us, has led to Feelings. But I'm going to put 2¢ in anyway, and it may sound a bit harsh, but it's the truth.
It does not matter whether JulyFlame likes your story or not.
Not does it matter if I do. Or if Huinesoron does. Or if Voyd does. If, say, sixteen of us all suddenly go "Whoa whoa whoa, you're way off base," then it might be time to have a discussion. But to immediately recant not only your story, but your PG hat, on the disagreement of one person with regards to its canonical fit, makes no sense.
Relax. We've all got different visions. You've got an arc, and it matters to you, and it apparently has a lot of folks who resonate. I think it would be a gorram shame to abandon that and your hat just because not everyone agrees.
*despite July wanting people to talk you down from being so hard on yourself, because I'll be honest, I haven't followed PPC canon, outside of one or two stories here and there, in upwards of three years.
I think you should stop and think about this. This is not the first time two PPCers or even two PGs have disagreed about the direction a story has taken. They didn't hang up the PG hat because of a disagreement. Disagreements happen.
That said, if you take some time and think about it and still don't want to be a PG anymore, then that is your choice.
-Phobos
What I wrote doesn't follow with what the PPC is supposed to be. With what the PGs are supposed to represent. I should have known better, and I didn't. Simple as that.
One person not liking one story and feeling it doesn't fit in with their idea of what the PPC is doesn't mean you should hang 'em up.
Though that said, multiple interpretations of what the PPC is "supposed to be" are a thing that should be allowed to exist. We're an evolving community and an evolving setting, where multiple interpretations are not mutually exclusive. While I can see where some would have concerns over some things, and in some cases I actually agree, I also feel "this is not exactly like what we would write in 2006 and therefore it shouldn't be a thing" is a bit much.
"this is not exactly like what we would write in 2006 and therefore it shouldn't be a thing" is not what I said, so please do not portray it as such.
I'm more organising my thoughts, and do suspect I'm babbling aimlessly. Sorry for that.
Calm down. Breathe.
At no point did I tell you that you screwed up.
I will get back to this in a few hours.
Brink's primary influence, from my perspective at least, was the Third Doctor's incarceration on Earth. Maybe it's just because I've been working with Ix for a while, but it felt like the kind of thing that fitted. As for why she is being treated harshly, well, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if the Guardsman had pushed for it a little. We've seen in a few bits and pieces that he's feeling betrayed by the Aviator, has taken the Reader under his wing instead, and is sufficiently governed by his emotions to blow up upon losing a screwdriver - forgive my not providing chapter and verse, I'm on my phone and formatting is a royal pain - so I think he'd want to throw the proverbial book at her and could maybe get some stuff to stick. But hey, I'm just some boring little Marx-botherer, you don't have to pay it any mind.
That is nice to know, but my concern wasn't with regards to inspiration. It had to do with the reaction present in the PPC rather than it being influenced by Doctor Who canon itself.
I already pointed out that I thought it was well written.
Second of all, I do not care that you are a "boring little Marx-botherer". Please stop bringing it up unless it actually has something to do with the conversation or debate at hand. It does not preemptively excuse you from my pointing out issues within your reply, or from not actually answering what I was saying in the first place.
-July, who doesn't actually care what your political or philosophical affinities are unless we are discussing items related to politics or philosophy, thank you very much
Maybe (as I said) it's because I betaed large chunks of Brink and other Third Aviator stories on and off for ages, but I thought the parallels to the Third Doctor was sort of the point of the story. Second Avi had been pratting about in the actual Whoniverse - not just the Reader's homefic - for a good while beforehand. She's been gone (subjectively) for several centuries. She's an extremely experienced field agent who has steadfastly refused to get any kind of help from FicPsych on a voluntary basis. Now she's back, she's a useful asset, but only if she's sane enough to keep performing missions. That means mandatory FicPsych evaluations and making sure she's not a flight risk - hence the tags and so forth.
Also, I'd say there was a big difference between you saying "I'm not sure I like this" and "[the PPC as Ix described it] is not one I write in". The one is entirely reasonable. The other comes off as an attack. Also also, saying stuff like "I realize that to you, Ixi, and co, that [sic] the arc is an important one." makes your post sound less like reasoned advice from a long-standing member of the community and more like condescension, especially since your example of why Ix was wrong to do it was one of your own agents (about whom I am not privileged to have an opinion). Tone is important, if you'll forgive my repurposing this glass house for a stone-throwing contest. =]
I admit this may be my anger issues talking, i.e. that I only found your post patronising because my brain chemistry blew it out of proportion, and I apologise if I'm jumping at shadows here. Point of fact, what I meant by my previous closing remark was that I expected you to be dismissive of my thoughts on the matter, as in "oh, it's just Scapegrace having a moan, I'm sure she'll run out of steam eventually". Which, upon reflection, is what I should have said. I certainly didn't intend to make this political and can only apologise if I did.
"Maybe (as I said) it's because I betaed large chunks of Brink and other Third Aviator stories on and off for ages, but I thought the parallels to the Third Doctor was sort of the point of the story."
I am still not talking about the tone of the Whoniverse. I am talking about the tone of the PPC. The one is not the other, and I had not touched or brought up anything with regard to the Whovian side of the story when I gave my review.
"Second Avi had been pratting about in the actual Whoniverse - not just the Reader's homefic - for a good while beforehand. She's been gone (subjectively) for several centuries. She's an extremely experienced field agent who has steadfastly refused to get any kind of help from FicPsych on a voluntary basis. Now she's back, she's a useful asset, but only if she's sane enough to keep performing missions. That means mandatory FicPsych evaluations and making sure she's not a flight risk - hence the tags and so forth."
PPC agents are not (not sapient) animals. They are able to make their own decisions about whether they want to stay or no. I can't say 'hm no I do not feel like being in the military anymore bye'. An agent can do whenever she or he likes. The PPC cannot keep them if they decide to leave. I do not see what is so special about Rina, regardless of how experienced she is or having become the Aviator, that they would make this new kind of decision.
"Also, I'd say there was a big difference between you saying "I'm not sure I like this" and "[the PPC as Ix described it] is not one I write in". The one is entirely reasonable. The other comes off as an attack. Also also, saying stuff like "I realize that to you, Ixi, and co, that [sic] the arc is an important one." makes your post sound less like reasoned advice from a long-standing member of the community and more like condescension, especially since your example of why Ix was wrong to do it was one of your own agents (about whom I am not privileged to have an opinion). Tone is important, if you'll forgive my repurposing this glass house for a stone-throwing contest. =]
I admit this may be my anger issues talking, i.e. that I only found your post patronising because my brain chemistry blew it out of proportion, and I apologise if I'm jumping at shadows here. Point of fact, what I meant by my previous closing remark was that I expected you to be dismissive of my thoughts on the matter, as in "oh, it's just Scapegrace having a moan, I'm sure she'll run out of steam eventually". Which, upon reflection, is what I should have said. I certainly didn't intend to make this political and can only apologise if I did."
Your tone is the one that needs watching. I said straight off the bat that I thought the writing was good. In no way was what I said an attack. What I had to say was directly connected. 'I am not sure I like this because of the extremes the DIA are going to, which is results in a PPC I would not want to write in.' My expression of an opinion is not an attack on her.
You are the one being condescending by trying to make it seem like I am attacking her, and at the same time setting up your replies to make it seem that if I reply in a way that expresses any disagreement with you, it is because I am being condescending myself, and intent on ignoring your opinion.
This is, as I have already told you, out of bounds. I am not going to accept your manipulating tactics, especially when it is because I said something that you disagree with and thus are trying to discredit me as thoroughly as possible.
I will not reply again if you pull any of the above (or related tactics) once more in this conversation.
First, let me offer an apology for that.
When I get fired up, as has been the case here, I try and beat my opponent down. The fact that I see someone on the opposite side of a conversation as an opponent to be beaten down is probably telling in and of itself, but that's by the by. I was reading the argument I wanted to read, rather than the one you were actually giving, and responded according to that rather than observable reality.
You have several good points concerning Brink's tone, and if you're amenable I'd like to discuss them privately. Everyone's probably had quiet enough of listening to me gripe, for a start.
Tends to result in there only being losers and no winners.
I very much appreciate your willingness to be amenable to further discussion. It takes a lot to admit being wrong sometimes and that you are approaching things at the wrong angle.
It takes a lot of bravery for that, and some of us never learn how to scrape up the courage.
-July
What happened there?is now picturing an Oblong turning into a Carrot and being very hard to type on.
~DF
The new one is orange.
Very orange.
Not entering this discussion, just want to clarify one thing--the Reader's been under the Guardsman's wing for quite a while. She has in no way replaced Rina there; they've grown close in their own right, and it happened...oh, actually around the same time or a little after Rina and the Guardsman started to get close. Remember the TARDIS repair session ("Cale Seche")? This next bit isn't out yet, though it was referenced here--the Reader's been taking lessons from the Guardsman, spending a fair bit of time with him. They've become good friends. While Rina is (was) certainly a mutual friend of theirs, and they were both close to her, the Reader grew close to the Guardsman around the same time and in a different way--less a father-daughter thing and more an equals thing. So he hasn't taken the Reader under his wing instead of Rina--they were both already there, in different ways.
(That is a pretty interesting theory, though. The question then, of course, would be: why were the recommendations of one agent--one very close to the matter, at that--accepted and pushed through and all? How would the Guardsman have gotten such pull that something like this could work? And why did no one oppose him, or say 'nah, that's too much work, we have better things to do, and the Flowers don't care enough to get so detailed about it anyway' (or something along those lines)?
This is meant entirely as theoretical speculation, mind you. It is in no way Word of Co-Author that that's what happened; just got curious about following that idea.)
~DF
I'm not really sure I see the Flowers going off the recommendation of one random dude, but maybe because he knows her they'd take something into consideration. But then, they could easily consider him just biased.
To me, it seemed like Terabyte was just throwing a bunch of possibilities into the air, re: what would happen from all of this; I actually agree with July in that it's most likely this ends with Aviator getting sent to FicPsych. Personally, I might have put in something to make it more clear that was an option, were I writing it, because I can see how someone might read, say, "incarceration" (which could've also meant inpatient care at FicPsych!) and interpreted it as "she'll be locked up and left to rot".
I do like the comparison to the Third Doctor though.
She(?) wasn't an uninvolved agent saying 'omerger, she's totes going to get sacked!', she was a person with extensive experience of the field offering a professional opinion.
hS
I think Terabyte identifies as an "it," but trivia aside, that really should be the consideration.
I think it was running down the probable outcomes of the Board looking at all this. Personally, if I were looking at it again I would've suggested it stress that most likely FicPsych gets involved, but who knows if that'd've made the overall story better.
I probably shouldn't jump into discussions when I'd just checked the Board upon getting back from a long day, as I'd done.
My previous post was meant to be a reply to your first post here. Derp.
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Happy(ish) days have come again!
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I just came back from hauling a lot of wood, so I will keep this brief. First, I knew she wasn't really dead. Dead inside? Perhaps. But it was far too easy to bring her back.
Second, just because she survived does not mean she is out of the fire just yet. We will see how the Flowers rule. Probably harshly. However, I thought the Time Lord thing was permanent. It would seem like cheating just to strip it now. Then again, if it could be done, it may be a harsher punishment then anything else they could do.
Third, I hope she gets better. She is getting the mental attention she so desperately needed. It's OK. It gets better. I promise.
Now, I really need to sleep. More wood tomorrow I think. Well done all of you. Ill chat if I can tomorrow.
If any of this makes no sense, know that I am near to sleeping on my keyboard tired. But I had to read through this first. Now. Sleepy times.
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We were only able to come up with two ideas as to how the disguise might be removed: using a Chameleon Circuit (and subsequently wipe the Aviator's memories in the process), or using an Escafil device to trap her in human morph (which, for an agent who got into an accident and made a huge mess of a fic, would be nigh-impossible to get thanks to red tape, but for the Flowers, it wouldn't be any hassle at all).
And you're right, that would be the harshest punishment they can do to her. She's been a Time Lord for four hundred and thirty-five years; that's about twenty-four times as long as she lived as a human. There's very little of what she used to be left; forcing her back into human form would break her.
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If somewhat loopy in the brainpan. I'm holding out hope that the Ten Years Hence will come to pass, since everybody was happy there, but even if it does, it seems like it's going to be a long, hard rode for Rina/The Aviator/whateverwerecallinghernowIvelosttrack
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She's surprisingly much saner now than compared to when she left; she's in shock, she's grieving, and trying to cope.
And she's called the Aviator now. Hope that clears it up. :P
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Her name is Arinorelivandrisar. Arin for short.
She usually goes by the Aviator, or Ave for short.
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She considers the Aviator to be her 'real' name now. Arinorelivandrisar was just adopted for while she was living on Gallifrey because it didn't stand out like a renegade name.
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Does that work? I hope so...
Now to wait for the Misaimed Fandom. Yes, I'm looking at you. Yes, you in the back.