At the time, I thought her various misadventures had been more, well, major. You commented on them thinking she was turning into a Sue because she was acting like someone out of a badfic and that didn't seem like something indicating a low profile being kept. But that's fair.

"That said, I would rather have this conversation privately if it must happen -- in part, because I won't have my name dragged through the mud in front of the entire community, and in part because I'm not sure how to address your concerns without sounding like I'm deflecting blame and throwing people under the bus, which is not what I am attempting to do."

I was not trying to drag your name through the mud in front of the entire community. I pointed out behavior that is very prominent at this moment in time. As far as deflecting blame you have been doing that for quite a bit of this thread.

"Quite honestly, the series of events as you portray them isn't exactly how things have gone down,"

Strange. Then the several people who have told me the same thing at separate occasions must have been exaggerating the exact same way?

"although I will admit I've been a bit gung ho about defending certain things when maybe that isn't really my place since all I am is the beta of the story (I wrote a tiny little bit, because I was asked to, but wasn't a real contributor to the story except as an editor)."

While ignoring everything else that is not DIA related about the criticisms yes.

"If I've allowed my defensiveness over one aspect of the story to override Iximaz, I apologise for that but it wasn't intentional, and I've hardly "bullied" anyone; in fact, one of the biggest changes I suggested to the story was overridden by the authors, and I didn't fight it (well, okay, I was a little resistant and made a comment along the lines of "I wish you had kept me in the loop when you decided this," but I backed down rather than make it my hill to die on; at worst, I was a bit annoyed about it). I'm not sure if you've been given an incomplete idea of what's been going on, or a deliberately misleading one."

So you had not disappeared on at least one occasion causing me to field at least two freakouts about what should they do, they told Ekyl something he disagreed with and when they said they wanted to keep it you made a comment about their attitudes and vanished without telling them anything?

"When I was brought in, it was to do a couple things: Ix wanted me to look over if her ideas for what the DIA would do fit my vision of how they're supposed to work (read: I tried to make them not seem super evil and authoritarian while still allowing the gist to be there - I still do not think it's an inherently bad thing that these days, sometimes people get arrested, but see other comments where I say in hindsight it does feel like it was a bit too abrupt and FicPsych being involved should've been clearer/more prominent) and then to help sharpen up the story in general."

I was under the impression she asked for help to make it match the PPC, given you are supposed to know the universe and made commentary previous. I think the resident Elf Lord was involved too as far as advice seeking went? I do not know. It is late and I just accidentally titled Huinesoron. Dangerous hour, midnight.

And... the gist being... super evil and authoritarian? I do not understand. Evil is an inherently bad thing, and so is authoritarianism in nearly every case outside of a few.

"The overall content of the story did not change from when I first started looking at it to when the story was published; the only new thing from wholecloth is the TARDIS crash scene, which I'd initially suggested might make a stronger opening. Plotwise, and in terms of most of the dialogue and such, everything after Reader enters the TARDIS (except for the "we're here and ready to help" message from the DIA who think she's trapped in there) is more or less exactly how it was before, though some of the superficial details (it all happening outside the vehicle, etc) have changed."

I've seen the first few drafts at this point in time. I cannot comment on where in the timeline you got involved. I am sure if we asked to see it it would reveal some interesting differences, no?

"The scene ended up staying but the original intro was put back in; whether that works better is subjective, but I didn't want to fight it."

Except as I am aware, you had?

"For the most part, I suggested structural and stylistic changes, which ended up being made or not made, and did not mess with the overall plot of the story - everything that happened is what was happening when I was first called in (I think the biggest difference is the scene in Rudi's got rewritten entirely)."

I cannot comment on this, besides that again, I heard much in the ways of the writers being frustrated and worried about some of the things you were insisting on despite their lack of surety, and their being put down when suggested changes by you were turned down, or they suggested doing something you were against.

"To say I bullied my way in and forced the story to look how I wanted it to look is false - and again, I don't know if it's a misunderstanding, or people outright lying."

I do not understand; are you saying your word is stronger than that of several different people, whom had no reason to bad mouth you, looked up to you, and had asked you for your advice because they were under the impression you would help them? None of them had any reason to lie to me. Again none of them knew they were speaking to me separately. It's awfully strange to think they would have the same delusion, don't you think?

"Maybe it should have occurred to me to suggest some things, like the conversation between Guardsman and Terabyte, be trimmed out? Who knows, maybe it would have helped, but I did my best to help turn out a good story without taking things over; occasionally there were disagreements over suggested edits or a turn things were taking, or whether certain scenes should be present (I strongly felt the TARDIS scene at the start was just exposition and slowed things down, but backed down from that) but I in fact tried to do the exact opposite of what you accuse me of."

The writers are always the final word. Not the beta reader.

"When I'm betaing somebody's story, I do my very best to be helpful and improve things as much as possible, and I am outright insulted that you would level these accusations at me - in fact, I consider them borderline libellous."

I'm surprised! I wasn't aware anything I said was libel, given what I have presented thus far! I apologize for the requiring such accusations.

"Especially when you launch into some tirade about how the only reason I have changed is you "told me to knock it off" -- over the years I have tried very hard to become a better person, I have done a lot of growing up, and I acknowledge that's not really a journey that ever ends but I will not be told it was all nothing because of an argument on the damn internet."

Didn't say that. The context for me telling you to knock it off was entirely in the scope of your suggestions to me for my own work in progress! As you should know I do not share things randomly. I asked you because I valued your advice in that situation! Alas that you think I was implying I was the source of all your growth and had work at becoming a better person! I would never dream of such. I had asked because I thought you had grown as a person!

"Even here, to say I have not changed is to be deliberately obtuse and to intentionally disregard years of behaviour that has changed for the better, and I will not be publicly insulted in such a manner."

Ok. But I'm not. That is why I was entirely shocked to find all this out.

"As for the DIA: I have been defensive of them because I was called in to check over their MO and put in some of the groundwork for how they're operating, so of course I would defend the validity and existence of what's there."

Yes, this is what you have done. But I thought you were invited in to, again, make sure it matched for the PPC tone.

"I've tried to go to bat for Ix's story a bit, because she went into full "I'm sorry I'll leave forever" mode. I apologise if I've overstepped my bounds in so doing, however. All I've been trying to say is that maybe it deserves to be given a chance, especially since it's not like I'm not working on things that would paint a more reasonable picture of them, and I simply disagree that them being willing to arrest somebody means they're as evil and authoritarian and "grimdark" as you and hS maintain."

You did? By and large you have been defending the DIA elements only. Also, a correction. Neither of us have used the words evil, authoritarian, or grimdark. The closest to even using the word "grimdark" was PoorCynic! And he wasn't even talking about the DIA there. Only mopey angsty Time Lords.

"You say I just arbitrarily went ahead and did things with no mind for people who "know it's supposed to work" or whatever because I was so desperate to make my mark, but when I first came up with these ideas I only went ahead with anything with permission from and discussion with hS."

Well, not arbitrarily at all. And I think the point is that no, they didn't. Which is why they asked you. And I can't speak for hS, as I am not Elven and have no mind powers whatsoever, but I believe his lordship's view of the DIA aligned with that of its creator, Artemis, who was all about scooping the flamethrower agents up and depositing them into the Kudzu's caring, alarmingly enveloping tendrils. Mine too, but I don't actually go there. Oh wait, I have a DIA agent too. I guess I am accidentally invested in only goose stepping at work? Wait, I'm in the navy, I can't march for the life of me. That's everyone else.

"I'll grant this was years ago and might have slipped from memory, but I remember you hearing about this so it feels to me as if you are being deliberately unfair. It is entirely possible, though, that it is simply fresher to my memory. Now, does what's being written wholly match up with how I've envisioned things? No. There have been in fact several things I disagree with of late, though I evidently didn't catch all of them."

It is late at night and I would enjoy clarification? How am I being deliberately unfair? What is this about years ago? I do not understand and this is vague enough that the many third parties reading this are no doubt confused as well about what you are implying.

"However, I still feel the need to call for things to at least be given a chance. If I'm a little protective of the DIA, I apologise, but I don't like something I've worked on being discarded as rubbish that shouldn't exist any more than I like the language you employ towards my own person, which makes me out to be some tumourous influence, especially when I have tried to take great care over the years to prevent a situation exactly like this (this is, in fact, why nothing is finished), and have been working on projects I hope will present a more reasonable view of the department."

I never called it rubbish. I am interested in hearing where you are pulling this from. Nor was my language particularly harsh towards you in the first place. I am quite surprised.

I don't think "tumor" is the correct word here. Not that negative, certainly.

It would certainly be a step up if you had DIA works to show proof of purchase with, so to say. I think.

"I will also note you ascribe more control over the process to me than there actually was - you act as if I wrote major sections of this story wholecloth, as opposed to basically answering the question "does this make sense y/n"."

I did not? Unless you are some powerful slightly terrifying puppet master. All I can go off is that several younger and more easily influenced PPCers looked up to you, decided to ask your aid, and then were given an extremely hard time from the sound of it.

I seem to recollect at least one incident where you told them their deadline didn't matter, what mattered was that you felt it was finished? Strange thing for the beta to say, I think, when it should be the author calling that shot.


"I am sorry if I come off as excessively angry, but let's not mince words: right now I am trying my best not to be, but I am incredibly hurt that you would say these things to me."

Ok. I'm feeling rather hurt too. I wasn't expecting to be accused of so many things or to see people I have been keeping an eye on be accused of so many things, which largely seem to involve conspiring against your good name with lots of uncoordinated lying.

"You have made some good points but you've also stepped over practically every line on the bloody road, and I apologise for how I might have come off, but I will not be treated this way, by you or anyone else here."

Out of curiosity where exactly are these lines? Do they involve the ones where you repeatedly put words in my mouth here and elsewhere? Since I had called you out on that previously already.

“I expect a full apology from you for insulting me so severely, and so publicly."

I am very very sorry that I insulted you severely to the point where you felt the need to make baseless accusations against others to right the perceived wrongs against you. Next time I will try to avoid inducing collateral damage, because it is never fun to calm down crying girls at odd hours of the day and sometimes night. It's quite awkward, you see, when I had told them previously I had used you myself for assistance.

“I am especially hurt, because I thought you and I were mending things - but I see you hold the same contempt for me as ever. I'm not angry with you, July, I'm just very, very disappointed.”

I was under the impression we were as well! Does this mean you are no longer willing to provide additional advice and counsel on the story I am planning to work on? My apologies. I suppose I will have to look elsewhere for more suggestions to not make the DIA irrelevant to the PPC in the course of the story. This will be somewhat difficult, because His Elflordliness Huinesoron is very easily distracted and very bad at replying to email in a timely fashion.

Thank you very much for taking the time to reply to me as thoroughly as you did, however. I greatly appreciate it, seeing how I know how busy we all are these days.

Throughout this entire thing, I've been on the sidelines. I've been a beta on Brink for nearly every version, and I have seen so many changes to the story within these long eight months. For a while, one version was very close to completion; this was about a month ago, around the time that LMM and the stuff after it occurred. After all of the issues surrounding the DIA and the dark nature of it in general, everything changed once again. In order to avoid another situation, the entire story (and almost everything that came after!) had to be changed. So the team decided to bring in someone with more experience in the DIA, AKA you.

I hadn't taken a look at the doc much during this time - it had been a week or two without any changes. It was very nearly done, and superb in quality. Emotion was there, characterization was there, you could feel how each style blended as each author contributed their heart and soul into writing Brink. It was good. The only thing that needed some more polishing was the DIA section, which was why you were invited.

That is not what you limited yourself to.

Essentially, you "suggested" a lot of things in a highly passive-aggressive way that changed the entire dynamic of the story. Both the opening and the endings received heavy changes, some very touching scenes and interactions were removed (in particular, the Guardsman giving peace to the fallen Time Lords as brothers and sisters-in-arms), and a lot of the suggestions you made for "polishing" reasons straight-up took that unique style out of the story. For lack of a better term, it was sterilized. Too precise. And both Desdendelle and I said as much after all of that. I was up for quite a while some nights talking to Ixi because she needed to vent her frustrations with you, and that's why I was present for a lot of the final editing sessions; as support and an extra voice so she would feel able to stand up to you. Whether or not you see it, you WERE being forceful with your suggestions. That biggest change you mentioned earlier was reimplementing the entire opening, which you insisted on cutting; when the authors came to a consensus to add it back in, you did not say something along the lines of "I wish you had kept me in the loop", your exact words were "It's much weaker with this in. Even (Iximaz) agreed when we made the change, so what changed your mind?" After it was explained that this was due to comments from three other betas (including me) who liked the first version better, and Ix specifically stated that she wasn't actually in agreement, she just didn't want to say no, you then said "...that makes the whole process pointless. If you don't like my suggestions, don't lie to me about it."

I can easily name about 20 occasions before then that she had shied away from disagreeing. And that's just her, I can't speak for the other contributors.

Please do not take this as a personal attack. That is not my intention. But you DID change the story heavily, with quite a few choice words if things were changed back; never fully aggressive, but passive. Whether you see it or not, I did, and I am only saying this as an observer who has been watching this whole thing and listening to his friend when she needed someone to talk to because she was frustrated. She has shown immense self-control in dealing with you. I tend to be very internet-shy. I don't post often. But I am speaking up now because this matters to me.

One person not liking one story and feeling it doesn't fit in with their idea of what the PPC is doesn't mean you should hang 'em up.

Though that said, multiple interpretations of what the PPC is "supposed to be" are a thing that should be allowed to exist. We're an evolving community and an evolving setting, where multiple interpretations are not mutually exclusive. While I can see where some would have concerns over some things, and in some cases I actually agree, I also feel "this is not exactly like what we would write in 2006 and therefore it shouldn't be a thing" is a bit much.

That is nice to know, but my concern wasn't with regards to inspiration. It had to do with the reaction present in the PPC rather than it being influenced by Doctor Who canon itself.

I already pointed out that I thought it was well written.

Second of all, I do not care that you are a "boring little Marx-botherer". Please stop bringing it up unless it actually has something to do with the conversation or debate at hand. It does not preemptively excuse you from my pointing out issues within your reply, or from not actually answering what I was saying in the first place.

-July, who doesn't actually care what your political or philosophical affinities are unless we are discussing items related to politics or philosophy, thank you very much

What happened there?

is now picturing an Oblong turning into a Carrot and being very hard to type on.

~DF

Not entering this discussion, just want to clarify one thing--the Reader's been under the Guardsman's wing for quite a while. She has in no way replaced Rina there; they've grown close in their own right, and it happened...oh, actually around the same time or a little after Rina and the Guardsman started to get close. Remember the TARDIS repair session ("Cale Seche")? This next bit isn't out yet, though it was referenced here--the Reader's been taking lessons from the Guardsman, spending a fair bit of time with him. They've become good friends. While Rina is (was) certainly a mutual friend of theirs, and they were both close to her, the Reader grew close to the Guardsman around the same time and in a different way--less a father-daughter thing and more an equals thing. So he hasn't taken the Reader under his wing instead of Rina--they were both already there, in different ways.

(That is a pretty interesting theory, though. The question then, of course, would be: why were the recommendations of one agent--one very close to the matter, at that--accepted and pushed through and all? How would the Guardsman have gotten such pull that something like this could work? And why did no one oppose him, or say 'nah, that's too much work, we have better things to do, and the Flowers don't care enough to get so detailed about it anyway' (or something along those lines)?

This is meant entirely as theoretical speculation, mind you. It is in no way Word of Co-Author that that's what happened; just got curious about following that idea.)

~DF

My previous post was meant to be a reply to your first post here. Derp.