There's two different things at play here.

Subject: There's two different things at play here.
Author: VixenMage
Posted on: 2015-08-25 18:21:00 UTC

First is what I believe Kirkblade and WorldJumper are saying: that the fact that there are many quests with multiple endings, and therefore, each player has a different universe in Nirn - and every single one of those universes is canon.

However, there are fanfictions that go off the rails of every single ending, creating nonsensical variations that show up in no Elder Scrolls game ever, not could they. For example, in Skyrim, I'm a big fan of Erandur pairings. There is no canonical evidence to support Erandur coupling off with anyone. Likewise, in Shivering Isles, what is the exact nature of the relationship (metaphysically, as well as interpersonally) between Sheogorath and Haskill? It's very much open to interpretation.

Good fanfiction is still not canon. A really great backstory about the sentient mudcrab in Morrowind is still not canon. A really great "what happened after" about the Companions in Whiterun is still not canon. I'd love to write a story that ends the Civil War in Skyrim by putting the Forsworn in charge of everything, taking out the Stormcloaks and Thalmor alike. That's literally impossible as an actual ending to the Civil War - and so it cannot be canon. I'd like to think it could be goodfic, but that doesn't make it canon.

Does that make sense? A fic that follows an OC along a quest perfectly in line with the canon ending may: A) disagree with the ending most players chose, making it non-canon for them; B) be a possible ending, making it canon for the game overall; C) still be a really bad fanfiction with a flat, boring character, bad spelling and syntax, and unrealistic dialogue.

Likewise, a fic that chooses a completely uncanonical quest ending might still have the characters at play be in-character and well-written, might adhere more to the spirit of the game, etc.

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I'm back, and I have a claim! by Dark Brother 16 on 2015-08-23 02:02:00 UTC Reply

Hi everyone! For those of you who don't know me, I'm Dark Brother 16. For those of you who do know me, I have finally returned from the endless void (real life stuff) and I intend to stay this time. Of course, there will be intervals where I am off the Internet for a while, like we all are from time to time. I think I'm going to renew my Claimed Badfics here soon, and I will attempt once again to gain Permission when I get a chance.

As an offering of renewed friendship, I am here to present something from the Pit, from whence I originally came. I have known about this Fic for a while, and have actually contributed to it a little bit.

Here's the link, and then a brief explanation.

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/7803566/1/Return-of-The-Brotherhood

This story is a Suefic from The Elder Scrolls: Skyrim, and it follows Alyce as she attempts to rebuild the fractured Dark Brotherhood. The author of this Fic decided to accept submissions for characters for the whole story, with certain parameters and strings attached. As a result, many of these characters that are in here are Sues and Stus.

I will admit something. This story was one of the first that I followed and favorite while I was at the Pit. I was still in my early years of writing, and I genuinely liked this story. I even submitted a character named Nikita Contortus, my (biased) favorite character in the story.

Now, I am reluctant to submit this one, for the above reasons. However, the point of the PPC is not to insult or belittle the authors of stories, so I feel it will be okay.

However, I reserve the right to do this story myself. In fact, I am already making plans to make this story my Mission 1.

What are your thoughts? If by some chance I am breaking any rules (it's been a while since I was on here and I think I should read the Constitution again), please let me know.

~ Signed,
~ Dark Brother 16
~ Semper sint externa

Welcome back, but, there may be a slight... problem. by World-Jumper on 2015-08-24 18:21:00 UTC Reply

With the mission, I mean. You see, there is this C0DA thing in the Elder Scrolls. It gets rather complicated, but, to boil it down, there is no Canon, there is no fanon, all fanfictions are just as valid of interpretations of Mundus as the official Bethesda games. All of them. Let me explain further.

If you are familiar with the Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowind, then you are familiar with the work of one Michael Kirkblade. He is responsible for most of the Elder Scrolls'... weirder aspects. There is a reason I say that Nirn is possibly more developed then the famous Arda. Kirkblade added several metaphysical aspects to his view of the land of Tamriel that shape its unique identity, such as CHIM, (basically the act of transcending and becoming a Buddah) and that all of known reality is a dream.

What does all that have to do with C0DA? Well, Kirkblade also introduced the concept of reincarnation. Not just of a person, but the whole world. Every time the world ends, for one reason or another, it will immediately be reborn, in a new form. Here, we have C0DA. Each person's individual idea as to how the world of the Elder Scrolls works is totally legit with C0DA. It is just one of many cycles, and cannot be dismissed. There are many reasons Kirkblade wanted to do this, partially because he likes open source fiction, partially because he does not like where Bethesda is going with the games and he wanted to stick it to them.

So what does this mean for the PPC? Well, in a way, it makes Elder Scrolls missions impossible. In a way, all fanfic is now canon. Or, well, at least, as Canon as Bethesda's version. Heck, even before this, the Elder Scrolls has been left purposefully open-ended. So much, they introduced Canon plot holes, in the form of Dragon Breaks. This was made in Daggerfall, so that all possible outcomes are Canon at the same time. All of them. It's called the Warp in the West. Major event in Tamriel's history. If you played Skyrim, you have a basic understanding of these Dragon Breaks.

However, if you are insistent, I can think of a few ways it could work. Your agents would have to work as Morag Tong, the assassins of Morrowind. They have legal contracts that allow them to kill in broad daylight. Well, in Morrowind, at least. In Skyrim, they would still be sneaky. However, it is a great excuse for a charge list. Just read the "contract" to the Sue when time to do the deed. Also, you would have to be very sparing in Canon charges. Unless it directly goes against everything that has ever been stated in every Elder Scrolls game, you may have to cut it a little slack. You are, however, allowed to point out how much this C0DA diverged from the commonly accepted one.

I am a bit of a lore nut. If you need help, I can see what I can do to see that your mission stays lore friendly.

Hold a second. by PoorCynic on 2015-08-25 04:03:00 UTC Reply

First off, missions don't necessarily have to be for canon-warping reasons. There's still the technical matters to think about.

Secondly, this C0DA thing sounds a bit iffy. What makes the work of Kirkblade — who from what I understand only worked on one Elder Scrolls game — more canonical than Bethesda's? What allows his strange and incomplete graphic novel override the work that all the other Elder Scrolls writers have done? Because people like his stuff? Because he's not affiliated with Bethesda (which I can understand people not liking)? That ultimately doesn't matter. The story — and thus canon — is dictated by those who write it.

The way you've described it, C0DA just sounds like Kirkblade's own fanfiction. There is nothing to suggest that it carries any canonical weight. Much like the Fallout Bible, it is one possible interpretation of canonical events by an insider that can ultimately be overridden once the next game comes around.

There's two different things at play here. by VixenMage on 2015-08-25 18:21:00 UTC Reply

First is what I believe Kirkblade and WorldJumper are saying: that the fact that there are many quests with multiple endings, and therefore, each player has a different universe in Nirn - and every single one of those universes is canon.

However, there are fanfictions that go off the rails of every single ending, creating nonsensical variations that show up in no Elder Scrolls game ever, not could they. For example, in Skyrim, I'm a big fan of Erandur pairings. There is no canonical evidence to support Erandur coupling off with anyone. Likewise, in Shivering Isles, what is the exact nature of the relationship (metaphysically, as well as interpersonally) between Sheogorath and Haskill? It's very much open to interpretation.

Good fanfiction is still not canon. A really great backstory about the sentient mudcrab in Morrowind is still not canon. A really great "what happened after" about the Companions in Whiterun is still not canon. I'd love to write a story that ends the Civil War in Skyrim by putting the Forsworn in charge of everything, taking out the Stormcloaks and Thalmor alike. That's literally impossible as an actual ending to the Civil War - and so it cannot be canon. I'd like to think it could be goodfic, but that doesn't make it canon.

Does that make sense? A fic that follows an OC along a quest perfectly in line with the canon ending may: A) disagree with the ending most players chose, making it non-canon for them; B) be a possible ending, making it canon for the game overall; C) still be a really bad fanfiction with a flat, boring character, bad spelling and syntax, and unrealistic dialogue.

Likewise, a fic that chooses a completely uncanonical quest ending might still have the characters at play be in-character and well-written, might adhere more to the spirit of the game, etc.
PoorCynic here, has a point... by Edhelistar on 2015-08-25 04:43:00 UTC Reply

Michael Kirkbride, although he was part of the design team for Redguard and Morrowind, and wrote some pieces of lore for the game Oblivion; he does NOT work anymore for Bethesda, the weight of his word for canon has as much weight for TES canon, as Frank Miller's has for the DCU. In fact, one of your links calls Bethesda´s work "canon". In all, as I see it, the concepts from C0DA are just fanon interpretation that has no weight on canon.

My appoligies on the name. by World-Jumper on 2015-08-25 05:19:00 UTC Reply

I as typing most of this on my phone, which for one reason or another has Kirkblade in it. No idea why. So, that would be the reason for the misspellings.

Second, if you all want to ignore Kirkbride's musings over how things did not go the way he wanted it to, by all means, do so. However, I am not sure the rest of the world would agree with us. It is a very strong argument a writer could use against any mission we do in Elder Scrolls canon, and at the very least, we need to be ready for it. It is more then just fanon in almost everyone's eyes, and we need a good reason for why we are ignoring it. Or, we find a way to work around it.

I think you're overstating this. by PoorCynic on 2015-08-25 05:51:00 UTC Reply

From what I've seen from a cursory search, Elder Scrolls fandom is very divided on C0DA. There are people fanatically defending it and people dismissing it as another fanonical interpretation.

The PPC is dedicated to canon. And for Elder Scrolls, that's the information stated in the games. Personal opinion doesn't account for anything. Canon is not some new invention intended to further a company's bottom line; it is part of story-telling, and has been for a long time. Plus, considering that the majority of PPC missions are only shared amongst this community, I'm not overly concerned about agreeing with "the rest of the world."

Fair enough. by World-Jumper on 2015-08-25 16:36:00 UTC Reply

I have been spending quite a bit of time with the sort of people who hold the open source fiction ideal high, and muse over how everything has changed for the worse since Morrowind and all that other nonsense. I have overestimated how important those people are. I do still hold that it is something that should be thought about, however, I can accept that C0DA does not hold that much weight. Well, at least, for now.

Even without that though, Elder Scrolls canon is still very open to interpretation. It is a challenging world to work in. I wish anyone who attempts it the best of luck.

(One small side note. What is strictly canon is not just what is directly in the games. The Imperial Library houses all of what is considered canon, such as in game books and dialogue. It also has some things that never made it directly in the games, but are still referenced or otherwise confirmed canon. There are also two books now! Which I have somehow not read yet. Anyway, that is just minor nitpicking, but something I thought I should mention.)

He was a major writer for all of the games before Oblivion. by World-Jumper on 2015-08-25 04:43:00 UTC Reply

And, while he is no longer technically employed by Bethesda, he is occasionally hired as a "Lore Consonant." He no longer writes for the games directly, but does shape the greater world still. He is Elder Scrolls in many ways. A pretentious little twerp, yes, but he is near singlehandedly responsible for the more interesting aspects of Tamriel that separate it from your average fantasy setting. He is also responsible for one of the biggest Gary Stus in existence, (Vivec you prick) but I digress.

No, sadly, this is not just his own fanfic. Can Bethesda make it so? Of course they can (and I prey they do) but as it stands, it is more then that. He still works for the company (albeit as a freelancer rather then payroll) and he is a massive influence among the writers. While unconfirmed, it is said several writers who are still on payroll are in support of C0DA and it's ideas on canon. So, unless we want to draw the ire of the Elder Scrolls community, and directly ignore a potential massive aspect of how Bethesda treats canon, we have to careful in how we treat missions in the canon. Is it impossible? No. But it takes a lot more work then before.

Say... by Desdendelle on 2015-08-24 22:34:00 UTC Reply

Can you link me to the bit that says that fanfic is as canon as Bethesda's things? I've played Skyrim before and I'm curious.

Now, not that I may be misunderstanding Kirkblade's point. by World-Jumper on 2015-08-25 02:51:00 UTC Reply

However, if I am, it is a very, very, very popular interpretation. Partially due to Kirkblade himself.

Here is C0DA itself. Read it if you wish. Just know that it is a script for a future graphic novel. And very, very confusing, even for a lore nut like me.

Here is the most accepted answer of what C0DA "is" by the TES lore community.

And now, a very choice quote from the author himself, speaking about canon on Reddit (which a massive part of C0DA was about):

What is your personal opinion on the idea of canon?

Tamriel never belonged to Bethesda. It was the other way around.

As for canon, it's really all interactive fiction, and that should mean something to everyone. That said, I appreciate and understand the stamp of "official", but I think it will hurt more that it will help in the long run.

TES should be Open Source. It is for me.

So, there you have it. As far as we can understand, your C0DA is just as valid as the 'canon.' There is a reason I am not fond of Kirkblade, but that is a rant for another day.

So... by Desdendelle on 2015-08-25 05:45:00 UTC Reply

There's this one guy who left Bethesda during the development of Morrowind, is still writing stuff for the community, and he thinks that every fan work is as valid an interpretation as Bethesda's work? That's what I'm getting here. If I'm mistaken, please correct me; but if that's the case, this guy is nothing more than a Big-Name Fan and we shouldn't go about deciding what's Canon or UnCanon according to what he says. He's not official, so to speak.

I should really read the Board more carefully... by Desdendelle on 2015-08-25 05:57:00 UTC Reply

Before posting. Looks like PC already said what I said in a slightly different way a little less than two hours ago.
Hurp durp I herp a derp.

*not should be know. Oops. (nm) by World-Jumper on 2015-08-25 02:53:00 UTC Reply

I know about Skyrim, so I'm eager to see how you do. by Silenthunder on 2015-08-24 14:18:00 UTC Reply

One of my agents is a Cathy-Khajiit in fact, named Za'kiir.
Welcome back! *tosses Spikes* by SkarmorySilver on 2015-08-23 21:18:00 UTC Reply

I don't play Skyrim, but I think this would make for an interesting first mission. Good luck!
Don't know you, but hi! by Dorano on 2015-08-23 20:56:00 UTC Reply

Hello! I'm Dorano, I just joined a couple weeks ago so I don't believe I remember you...but hello anyway! I don't have gifts to give, unfortunately. Very sad.
Welcome Back by Pippa's Ghost on 2015-08-23 19:27:00 UTC Reply

Great to see you again.

Have some sonic screws. You have to provide your own screwdriver for them.
Welcome back! by Edhelistar on 2015-08-23 17:17:00 UTC Reply

Have this replica of the One Ring that allows you to use 'Unrelenting Force'!
Welcome back! by eatpraylove on 2015-08-23 14:24:00 UTC Reply

I figured you were too insanely busy to post much (like I get sometimes). I don't think you're breaking any rules by submitting a fic you previously contributed to, but don't quote me on that. Instead, have a peanut butter cookie. :)
Hello! (nm) by dramaticsoprano on 2015-08-23 14:19:00 UTC Reply
Welcome back to the PPC! by Scapegrace on 2015-08-23 13:04:00 UTC Reply

Also, I... vaguely kindasorta remember you from the first time you were here! =]

Anyway, here's your NG+ starter Pokémon:-

Iiiiiiiiiiit's Raichu!

And your starting item is:-

Blessing Of Hermes (Spell Slot) from Ascendant!

So, this is a pretty good item in general because it gives every attack a nerfed version of the properties of Hex. Doing 50% additional damage to enemies with any kind of status effect, major or minor, is good shtuff. Raichu, as a special sweeper, can take advantage of this - though be sure to use the ability Lightning Rod for the additional Special Attack boosts rather than going for Static. Raichu doesn't have the bulk for it. I'd run Thunderbolt, Hidden Power Ice, Focus Blast, and either Teeter Dance if you're in singles - it's a really good way of spreading Confusion - or Thunder Wave if you aren't. Max out your Speed and Special Attack, with your last four EV Points in Special Defence, and select Timid as your nature, because high speed will really help you out and Raichu's base Speed is 110, which is pretty okay. However, you'll almost certainly need status spreader support if you want to get the most out of this item. =]
Welcome (back) aBoard! by domirossi on 2015-08-23 12:19:00 UTC Reply

Have this nuclear firecracker. Totally safe. I swear.
Welcome back! by TheShyIon on 2015-08-23 05:50:00 UTC Reply

Have a debatably-existent kitten.
Welcome back my fellow returnbie by James Shields on 2015-08-23 03:25:00 UTC Reply

I remember you as well and like you I just got back from the endless void a few days ago. So here, have a Rorschach Book, which changes automatically according to your current reading needs.
Welcome (back) to Creation, here's your shovel. by Voyd on 2015-08-23 02:34:00 UTC Reply

Have a shovel enchanted to dig up nothing but rabbits. You have to care for them.

Many thanks (nm) by Dark Brother 16 on 2015-08-23 02:36:00 UTC Reply

Returnbie! *glomp* *poke* by Iximaz on 2015-08-23 02:08:00 UTC Reply

Heya, welcome back! I remember you! Have a plate of fresh SPaGhetti!

Anyway, as for your claim, we have this lovely page on the Wiki for you to list your claim. Just make sure to label it as 'Permission pending', alright? ;)