Subject: A request.
Author:
Posted on: 2017-03-17 17:56:00 UTC
As someone who believes that the discussion on the Discord was not a witch-hunt, can you please post a complete log of said discussion for those of us who do not wish to visit the Discord? I suggest posting it in reply to Desdendelle here.
hS
I stirred up a bit of trouble last night on the Discord in a drug-addled rage and it's since prompted me to finally move on from this mess of a community. Even if I could recover from what I did under the influence of drugs, you know what? I don't want to.
The longer I stay here, the less safe I feel. You lot talk so much about upholding the Constitution when all you do is waffle about on making any real decisions and ignore complaints of bullying or brush it off entirely unless someone more 'reputable' steps up to the plate.
When "Brink" was published, not a single one of you gave a damn about the fact that while writing it, Ekyl bullied his way into becoming a cowriter rather than a beta reader, turned the story into what he wanted, and SeaTurtle and Zingenmir didn't give a rat's ass when I told them he was making me miserable and wanted him to leave. Yeah, never mind that the incident left me with new scars on my arm and the constant niggling idea to down my entire medicine cabinet at that point. None of you cared.
Well, none of you except July, but she's got a bit of a history of being a bully, too, doesn't she? Not that you care about that, either. She's a PG. She's an oldbie. She's untouchable. "Oh, she was just tired when she started screaming at you over PM abut how you're in the habit of conspiring with Desdendelle about chasing newbies off the Board, she really is truly sorry about that". Yeah, sorry she lost her verbal punching bag, maybe. For the record, when I left the last time, I did leave because of her. I just said I didn't because 1) nothing would have come of it if I did and 2) Data Junkie would have used it as further ammunition for their ripping into July. I'm starting to think they had the right idea.
I had to start avoiding role-playing on Discord because GlarnBoudin wouldn't leave me alone, making inappropriate comments about my characters and not taking no for an answer. None of you cared about that until Tomash said something, and what was the result? "Eh, we'll ban him, maybe. Can't really be bothered to vote on this. Besides, doesn't Ix have a history of whining? Can't she shut up for once about how mean everyone is to her? God, she's so annoying."
I've just been growing more resentful and hateful of this place every single day. Bullies and bully apologists, the lot of you. The only reason I was sticking around as long as I did is because I don't have anywhere else to go. If it's this bad here, in a community that claims to be intolerant of crap like what I have to put up with, how bad is it out there?
So good-bye, PPC. I don't expect you'll care about this, either. Write it off as Iximaz being dramatic and leaving the Board again.
I hate all of you.
Good. Bye.
I've been withdrawing from a medication with nasty side effects like anger outbursts and hearing voices, and I posted in a moment of rage. I know that is not an excuse for what I said and I should have known better. I just hope that can at least provide an explanation for why I did what I did.
That being said, I think I should stay away for a while to let things cool down.
I'm so very deeply ashamed and can't say I'm sorry enough.
To be honest, I didn't find any of this extremely concerning. Still, this has weighed heavily on my thoughts for the past day.
Restraint is a good trait to have in a public place. It is good to see you demonstrate that.
Thank you for your apology.
I said it in a post below, but it's a bit buried, so I'll say it here, too:
Please know that your health and well-being are very important. Take whatever time you need and do whatever you need to do to feel stable before thinking you need to engage again. Like hS said, we'll be here when/if you're ready to come back.
~Neshomeh
Just take a step back for a bit, give yourself as much time as you need.
You owe SeaTurtle and Zingenmir an apology for saying that they didn't give a rat's ass about your feelings.
You owe the Board-at-large an apology for calling everybody here bullies.
But most of all you owe July an apology. Even if you didn't mean to, you've set off one of the ugliest witch hunts I've seen here against a person who wasn't around when you were coming off your meds, wasn't around to defend herself against all of the accusations and mudslinging, and has zero ill intent toward you. Your actions made people consider publishing July's private conversations in public. You've basically made her feel like you're driving her away from the Board. She was unjustly scapegoated because of your feud with her. At the very least you owe her an apology.
You do realize you're demanding an apology in response to an apology? I advise that you refrain from posting until you're less angry.
...for Ixi to not only deliver a general apology for their outburst, which they did, but also to apologize to the people they called out by name in said outburst on a more personal level. Referring to everyone else around here as bullies is one thing, but accusing several Boarders of specific, individual actions they perceived as being offensive is a different albeit related matter.
I know I'm not the foremost authority on handling instances like this, but I've dealt with tense periods like this before in multiple online communities. Based on what I do know, I feel that even if everyone accepts a general apology there are those who will still feel that the person in question has yet to address specific issues with them in particular.
Be that as it may, I accept Ixi's general apology, in part because from what little I was aware of when all this escalated I doubted that they'd had a clear head when they posted the outburst in the first place, what with the effects of their drugs and such. This acceptance comes with the caveat however that personally talking with the people whom they specifically called out would also help a great deal and is recommended as well, so that everyone who got dragged in has a role in defusing and ultimately resolving this kind of situation.
I agree, I think the people who were specifically called out deserve specific apologies.
In general, too, I feel that this community has a great deal of patience, understanding, and forgiveness in it, and I think its members deserve the same from each individual in return, especially considering the immediate, maybe even extreme reactions that take place in an attempt to make restitution and set things right every time something like this happens. We're not perfect and never will be, but I don't think you'll find a community that tries as hard as us to do right by everyone here. That must not be ignored.
That said, Iximaz, your health and well-being are very important. Please take care of yourself, take whatever time you need, and do whatever you need to do to get to a place of stability. Like hS said, we'll be here when/if you're ready to come back.
~Neshomeh
I realize that I'm hardly the least biased person here, but I do feel that something really ought to be said, and I don't really see anyone else making the case here, so here goes.
What I'm more than aware of is that Iximaz never intended to make that post. They've been susceptible to things that are both something I'm incredibly sympathetic toward and not the subject of this post, but they did predispose her toward taking an action she never would've considered while sober.
My issue, however, is that the allegations she made don't seem to have received much, if any credulity. Actions she claims had serious consequences. Why is no one taking that seriously? Why is no one considering the possibility that while she might never have come out and said anything without being under the influence, that what she's said is the truth? And why isn't anyone looking into it to find out whether or not this is the case?
It seems to me that what I'm seeing is someone who feels harassed finally snapping and asking the community at large to actually investigate the accusations, giving credence to both sides and deciding who did what. Deciding if harassment actually did take place, and ensuring that people don't feel unsafe here again.
I think that's admirable, I think that's reasonable, and I don't think that's something for which they should be made to apologize. I think it's even beneficial to the community as a whole. Iximaz is a friend to a lot of people here—why is no one listening to her? She made the accusations in an unreasonable state, but I happen to think that's because she doesn't think anyone else here will listen to her, and at the time of posting she didn't care what happened to her in the immediate future. She could finally tell the truth, and make the community aware of what she saw as Ekyl and July harassing her.
And you're asking her to apologize for that?
"It seems to me that what I'm seeing is someone who feels harassed finally snapping and asking the community at large to actually investigate the accusations, giving credence to both sides and deciding who did what."
But it's only fair to investigate what people actually did, rather than how strongly Iximaz reacted to what they did. As Neshomeh rather excellently explained here, Iximaz's reactions and choices belong to her and only her.
I think everyone involved in this fracas is genuinely trying to do the best that they know how, for their friends and for the Board. Everyone is just colliding up against each other like drifting continents.
-Kaitlyn, sad
(I don't even know how to deal with everything that's come out up-Board, so I'm starting here. Good god, y'all.)
Okay, so. Aegis. I understand that you are concerned for Iximaz's well-being. I am, too—and I apologize for talking about you of necessity here, Iximaz, but I believe I've expressed more or less what I'm about to say here to you before, so I hope it doesn't seem to come out of nowhere. Also, please know that this goes for anyone with mental health issues and the people who love them, not just you and Aegis.
Before going on, let me establish my credentials on this subject. I've been around the block with various forms of mental illness throughout my life (31 years, 32 this June, if anyone's wondering). Substance abuse, depression, anxiety, bipolar disorder, and borderline personality disorder are all present in my family—all at once, in my dad's case. I've dealt with several friends when they were talking about suicide, one of whom was my boyfriend at the time. I've been in therapy and been prescribed medication for depression with anxiety myself. Also, my mom worked in the mental health field for roughly twenty years, and she taught me many skills that I've used to successfully navigate those situations.
Please bear all that in mind when I tell you, you need to understand that Iximaz must take responsibility for her own issues and her own choices. My understanding is that she had trust issues before joining the PPC, and that they may in fact be a symptom of her condition. If her illness prevents her from giving us an honest chance to prove that we will take her seriously, or from recognizing the good will of people toward her when it is rampantly on display, there isn't a single thing any of us can do about that. It's not our fault she has these deeply ingrained issues, and it's not our fault if she isn't doing what she needs to do to work through them.
Further, if she is not making responsible choices about when to interact with the community and when not to based on her mood/health status, that is not acceptable, and it falls to us as her friends to hold her accountable for it. We are not obliged to tolerate outbursts like this from anyone, especially not if we like them and wish to see them continue to be a valued member of the PPC community and society at large.
If she cannot make responsible choices for herself, that has very serious implications which go beyond what any of us can handle, because we are not trained mental health professionals. I caution you against making that argument unless you're prepared to accept those implications.
I believe, and I want Iximaz to believe, that she does have the power, the personal agency, the ability to make responsible choices for herself. It may take practice, and mistakes may happen, but that doesn't mean we should lower our expectations. That's as bad as saying she can't do it; see above paragraph.
So, yes, I stand by what I said, and I recommend that you think long and hard about whether denying Iximaz's responsibility for her actions is really helpful to her in the long run.
~Neshomeh
Aegis, don't you go trying to argue this. You'll just make yourself look like an ass.
I know that Iximaz thinks no one will listen to her if she speaks up.
While working to address the problem of GlarnBoudin, I heard countless variations on that theme, including (notably) the thought that, once hS initially posted on the thread expressing doubts about how bad the problem really was, everyone would take his perspective over hers.
Is Iximaz right?
(Not really just directed at you, Tomash - more of a general comment on the trend I'm seeing.)
I'd appreciate it if we separate perceived "problems with the community" from individuals. This has happened before, I'm certain - people go "Once hS gets involved, everyone listens to him," and it comes off as an accusation towards Huinesoron. To my mind, this is utterly unreasonable. To hold someone responsible for the way the community respects or listens to them is absurd. Whether one agrees or disagrees with hS, blaming him for the fact that many in the community respects his opinion seems backwards, unfair, and often, really mean-spirited.
If you think the community doesn't take someone seriously enough, fine, say so. But to blame another voice for being taken seriously is way off. Other than telling Huinesoron to stop talking because people listen to him, I fail to see how this is a useful topic.
I was relaying Iximaz's perceptions of the community and her position within it. I mentioned hS because I believed that was a particularly interesting example of how Iximaz felt about us.
I can't comment on whether her perceptions are accurate. I hope they aren't.
I don't think hS did anything malicious in that situation, and any change in the collective opinion that (might have) happened after he first said something isn't his fault. Why would it be?
I'd also like to make it clear that I don't think anyone in the PPC set out to intentionally ignore Iximaz or downplay her concerns. If that happened, it was a collective failing that no one can be personally held responsible for.
It was wrong of me to say what I did and I'm sorry. I said things in anger that should not have been said and were unfair accusations.
You'll always have friends here when you're ready to come back.
-hS and Kaitlyn
We all know that you're going through a difficult time. Just know that we'll be here waiting with open arms when (and if) you decide to come back.
Actually, your post was surprisingly beneficial, in that the PPC is now looking at some form of reconstruction, which (quite obviously) needed to happen.
I wish you the best of luck in whatever you choose to do, and I hope that you will find true happiness (I mean, what kind of a friend would I be if I didn't hope that for you?).
Have a seal:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/54/ef/9a/54ef9a417ffa92309dccfbe59112cb4a.jpg
:)
I've said as much elsewhere, but you also need to be aware of this: Ix caused something despicable to happen and it's very much something to be ashamed of.
I would agree, but Ix wasn't thinking straight when they posted. It's completely not their fault that the medication caused them to feel like this. And I do have experience with a situation similar to this. My sister was on a medication with side effects like the ones Ix described, and she said some pretty awful things a few times that she would never have said otherwise. Therefore, I have first hand experience with how medications can impact what people say.
Additionally, about the "witch-hunt" you mentioned happening on the Discord chat, we were merely trying to decide how to proceed with investigating Ix's accusations of bullying. That's not a witch-hunt.
I would also like to add that if Ix hadn't been on medications when they posted, then I would expect them to be ashamed.
As someone who believes that the discussion on the Discord was not a witch-hunt, can you please post a complete log of said discussion for those of us who do not wish to visit the Discord? I suggest posting it in reply to Desdendelle here.
hS
I think that's a great idea, I just have no idea how to do it. The discussion also lasted for about an hour and a half (I think, it could've been longer), so a log would be very long.
Two easy, simple methods:
a) screencap the conversation one screen at a time.
b) copy-paste the whole conversation into a txt file or something similar.
As Neshomeh has rightly pointed out, Iximaz has mental health issues that can lead to her not being 100% rational all the time. This is very clearly one of those times.
What you have just said is extremely close to "Iximaz should be ashamed for having a mental illness".
hS
I think that some actions you ought to be ashamed of, regardless of whether you could be held responsible for them. If you — for example — ran over a cat that jumped before your car (ie, you had no control over this and couldn't turn the wheel or change anything), I think you should still feel some sort of shame despite being stuck in a deterministic situation.
It's the same here; it's not the mental illness that Ix should be ashamed of, it's the consequences.
You are not helping. You are really not helping. And for the record? What you've written here is entirely superfluous. What you are saying is "Ix should feel bad" when, guess what? They are, and have been expressing how much throughout proceedings.
You are coming across as a comprehensive arsehole, regardless of whether or not it was your intention. I know you don't much care for either my opinion or my assessments of your character, but please: take a deep breath, then take several more. Your anger is clouding your judgement, however righteous and justified you may consider it. I've been there. For the love of God, man, what the hell are you following my lead for?
scapegrace-Yesterday at 12:53 PM
Or we can watch hS tell us all that nothing's wrong and everything's fine and this was an isolated incident, and we'll all go "well, he'd know, he's hS", and nothing will happen, because nothing ever happens, because nothing happening is the easiest way to cope with things.
Some of you might be sensing a little hostility.
Ekyl-Yesterday at 12:54 PM
To say the least.
scapegrace-Yesterday at 12:54 PM
Cope.
SergioTurbo-Yesterday at 12:54 PM
If he goes "nothing happened", I'm the first who'll be very disappointed and the first to say that no, something HAS happened.
scapegrace-Yesterday at 12:55 PM
Not really what I meant, Sarge.
He won't say nothing happened, he'll say it's sad and he wishes them well and we'll go about our usual business and in a month it'll all be forgotten.
Because something else will have come along, and Nesh might have got another gobbet of Subjugation done, and something else might have happened, or hey, a cool Plort RP for us to sink our teeth into, or something, or something else.
And we will forget.
What the hell did I do to you, Scapegrace?
hS
I shouldn't have used a specific example. I shouldn't have said it at all, and especially not in public. I apologize. You'll forgive me, though, for not wanting to delete the posts in question.
What Des was saying got to me in a way it really shouldn't have, as has everything else about this stupid internet drama. I'm just absolutely sick and tired of everything to do with it, and those posts? Basically made of panic at my best friend here having legitimate grievances ignored because someone else points and goes "See? They said a mean thing too! Clearly everyone's just as bad, let's just carry on as normal."
And this is just getting me angry again.
I'm sorry for what I said about you, hS. I should never have said it.
It's not like I don't feel bad enough about this whole mess. Really appreciate it.
I mean that. Have fun. Be who you want to be. If the PPC has no place in your happiness, leaving is totally fine. If we were making your happiness impossible? I don't blame you for leaving. All of us should have been there for you.
I never really knew you that well. I never heard you accusing July. I never saw the cruelty. But I still feel like I should have been there for you more.
So go forth and do wonderful things, Iximaz. The people here who love you will be here if you want to talk to us again.
You haven't been protected when you needed it most. The situations with Ekyl and JulyFlame should have been taken more seriously, and we should have acted against GlarnBoudin more promptly. You've been treated horrifically and I understand why you want to leave.
I want to fix this situation. I've been a bystander or enabled abusive situations too often -- I'm going to read everything I can find on preventing abuse and implement it all.
I hope you find somewhere that will treat you better. I hope things start looking up for you. Best of luck and stay strong.
--Key
I sent a mail. I don't know if you'll read it, or that post for that matter, but know this.
I'm your friend. Several other people here are your friends. I'm sure we'll all be waiting for you, or at very last keep in touch with you.
Goodbye, my friend. Please don't go away.
I'll miss you. I don't hate you, or think you did anything wrong. *offers sad hug*
Because if so, that's pretty much the cruelest thing you could have said.
I'm still gonna try to be your friend, though, if you'll let me.
I just want to say that I'm very sorry that this happened, and that you're leaving. Though I suppose it's for the best since the PPC makes you feel like this.
I also want you to know that I consider you a friend, I'm sorry if you didn't know that.
When I said that you really will be missed, I meant it. Not just by me; I'm sure that there are many here who will miss you. You were a big part of this community. And rest assured that I mean every word I said.
Aa' menle nauva calen ar' ta hwesta e' ale'quenle; May your paths be green and the breeze on your back.
Good-bye,
-Jay
