Baron hS didn't actually offer a single opinion about what was happening in La Wunj; he's just receiving the news (and refusing to go poke around).

Nor have I at any point made a single comment about the current chat. I guess you getting that impression goes back to VixenMage's point about memory being malleable?

Finally, to get this down in public: I don't want to go into the Discord. That has nothing to do with anything that's happened on any version of the Lounge. It's because I am extremely uncomfortable in group chats of any description. It's very nice that people keep inviting me (so thank you), but I'm not going to say yes.

hS

Then the veteran smith continued his work, shaking his head at his Baron's ways.

After all, there was actually more evil in a twelve-year-old practitioner of the Majokko art of white magic than in his current landlord.

[I just had to.]

which was, in fact, very useful, considering that most of them were sound asleep and totally unconscious whenever he was awake and liable to approach them.

But the one or two people he did run into quavered and quivered like never before. You wouldn't believe it.
Off the charts, it was.

Des's Evil Plans:
1) Make tea.
2) Drink tea.
3) Why's the tea gone?
4) Repeat 1 & 2

So evil.

-Phobos

I second Storme's post, and I'm particularly concerned with your implication that Iximaz should feel ashamed over this when they were the one being harassed and definitely already feel crappy about it. Don't forget that they're included in "mods" when you say "Quite frankly, the mods ... should feel ashamed." I'm sure we'd all be very pleased to see them stand up for themself more, and to never have cause to doubt that they have the support of the community if someone is being a jerk to them, but I certainly don't think they should be shamed over not wanting to abuse their mod powers to address what may have seemed like a personal issue.

Also, let's please bear in mind that this group of mods are all new to the role, and still learning how best to balance authority with forbearance (and vice versa). It's not something most people automatically know how to do, and if we punish them for having growing pains, I doubt they'll want to keep doing it for very long. I agree that they shouldn't have to feel afraid of reprisal for using their authority, but they shouldn't have to be afraid of reprisal for following their very respectable inclination toward patience and tolerance, either. We should be building their confidence, not tearing it down.

I really think you owe the community, the mod team, and especially Iximaz an apology.

~Neshomeh

Not all of us knew the full extent of what he was doing? And I'm not just talking about those who don't go on Discord, but I know there are those who do use Discord who don't know the full extent of what he did, or didn't know prior to his kicking from the server. So whilst, yes the bulk of your post may be right, leveling an accusation at the community as a whole is not. Not all of us knew what was even going on, so how the hell were we meant to stop it?

I regret that the situation with Glarn happened.

I regret that I, through insufficient action, allowed it to happen.

I regret that I stood by and did almost nothing (except deliver a warning or two) while Iximaz, a valuable (and unfortunately somewhat mentally vulnerable) member of the PPC community was harassed for weeks, even after it was pointed out to me that it was happening.

I regret not bringing up the matter of how moderators should act, and how they should coordinate their actions, with the community until it was too late.

I also regret that I cannot support the call for a long-term ban I'm sure I just read. There was a very unfortunate lack of clarity regarding rules, process, and expectations, as well as a lack of communication within the mod team. These circumstances prevented the PPC from giving GlarnBoudin the series of consequences that would have made a long-term ban more than appropriate at this point.

Despite these reservations (and the fact that Grarn appears to have left of his own accord), I believe that something more must be done. What happened was unacceptable and wrong. We need to take a stand!

Therefore, I propose that some (at least one) of the following actions be taken with respect to GlarnBoudin.

1) When (if) he comes back, he gets One. Last. Chance. That is, if he goes onto the chat or the Board and starts harassing someone (especially Iximaz) again, being aggressively NSFW, or otherwise violating the Constitution, the incident shall be reported to the Board, and the banhammer falls then and there.

This automatic ban would be long (I'd propose a year, but I don't have any firm commitment to that timeframe) and we would have the option to make it permanent at that time for egregious behavior.

If Glarn comes back and behaves for, say, 3 months, the hairtrigger probation will end and the full ban procedure will be back in effect.

I believe we have used a consequence like this in the past with Data Junkie.

2) A short, symbolic ban, lasting, no more than a week. This would, I believe, not be a significant restriction on Glarn's participation in the PPC, since he appears to have left voluntarily. It would, however, send a message that the kind of behavior Glarn exhibited will not be tolerated here.

I support both of these things (in the case of the symbolic ban, I support three days).

These are obviously not our only options (at the very least, "long ban" and "don't do anything" are valid votes, as is "off with Tomash's head!"), so feel free to propose whatever you'd like in your replies.

- Tomash

Everything honestly looks really above-board right now. And, given how nasty the Glarn situation seemed to get, I'd be all for giving the mods power to be a little quicker and a little more coordinated in the future. And... that does seem like the form of a mod-chat to talk on the subject.

Honestly, it's probably better than emails, in the long run; more instantaneous, everything is in one place, etc.

And this really, really shouldn't happen again, though I completely understand why it did. I don't like throwing blame around when people are slow to hit the ban button, especially since I'm really, really sympathetic to the "Well, if it's just -me- they're bullying, that isn't the same as bullying, period, right?" mental gymnastics. We've all been there, and I'm so sorry that happened. Maybe one of these days, it'll be the last time it ever does.

I do think that someone could be aggressively in violation of the constitution to the point of warranting less warnings, but for general problems, that process sounds entirely reasonable.

And I agree, a mods-only channel really does seem like the right way to organize. I don't see other options that address transparency concerns well, and Discord is set up for special-purpose channels that only get used once in a while - and you're very right, if there's no faith in a mod or mods, we have much, much bigger problems than moderation process.

I was wondering why Glarn was no longer listed on the chat, and I wanted to ask him personally, but I was too afraid that something bad had happened and that he'd lash out at me if I asked him about it (as he's done at least once before).

Having been involved to some extent in the tense situations with Glarn on the chat, and having tried to field him before as a friend and confidant, I can say with confidence that he isn't a victim, and if you'll forgive my being the pot that calls the kettle black a little, I can't condone his behavior in general because for the love of Arceus, I've been there before. I've repeatedly stated that he has to stop and think about what he's done, since I'd rather not witness a repeat of what happened to me while I was in that one DeviantArt group project that kicked me out a few years ago. I wasn't around to see the aftermath, but from what I heard, the drama caused by this and several other bad situations pretty much forced the group to start over from scratch (since they'd been around for only one to two years and not the PPC's ten or more).

That being said, I have to second Des regarding the matter of holding back. I still stand by the notion that the entire fiasco regarding Glarn was handled poorly and with no consistent communication between ANYBODY, period. Nesh's rules on handling chat offenders are pretty solid IMO although I also agree that Board and chat posting are different enough to warrant their being handled separately - at least on the Board, mishaps like blowing up at someone can be seen publicly and can thus be more effectively handled by any and every mod available. Now, I realize that I am in absolutely no position to get into any arguments, since my jumping in has backfired on me too many times to count, but at the same time I want to make sure that difficult situations like this don't happen again.

So to this end, may I propose another addendum to Nesh's suggestion? I'm honestly not so sure if it would be a good idea for Discord chat invites to be handed out arbitrarily and to everyone who visits the Board without the assurance that they understand the Constitution. So next time you guys intend to invite someone to the chat, perhaps you could contact them privately beforehand and ask if they understand the Constitution well enough not to cause any trouble while they're there? I'm aware that this may sound a little harder on the Boarders, especially the newbies, but I think it'd be better for everyone in the long term. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, as they say. (With this in mind, I also approve of RP channel rules as well, for the same reason as with the chat and its participants in general.)

I think that, in my particular case, I'd rather be gun-shy than trigger-happy, because unlike the other mods (who were elected by the Board), I'm a mod because I'm the owner of the channel — I'm the unelected dictator pulling strings in the background, as things are. While it seems that people trust me enough with those powers, I'd rather err on the side of caution than mess up and cause Drama.
'sides of which, I'd rather not kick someone out of anger. I know I have a tendency to jump the gun when I'm pissed off; that's why I try to wait, observe and reflect before doing such things.

Anyway, I like the procedure you've outlined, except for #7: I still think that a ban is something for the Board to discuss, not for the Discord mods to mete out for repeat offences; admittedly, I can see a case where a person keeps getting kicked out of the channel, but I think it is not the same thing as being banned.

(Also, obligatory YGOTAS quote: "Playing card games is just like making love. You usually do it on a table, and you always feel deep shame when it's finished. Also, the older you get, the less fun it is. So remember, always wear a condom when playing card games.")

I was hesitant to do anything about it, honestly, because I didn't see Glarn harassing anyone other than myself and didn't want to look like I was making a fuss over something trivial. :/


Re. RP Guidelines: I think that could be a good idea. Despite having played D&D for a few years before joining the PPC, I still made some goofs my first few times RPing with people.

...setting up a 'mods only' channel?

Honestly, I think just PMing individually has worked fine in the past.

How does that work?

I feel like this was a fairly hard shutdown. It feels to me like you are telling me I'm not allowed to have an opinion on the chat, and that any comment I might make on any version of it is invalid because I am not a part of the chat-using group. That isn't a nice feeling.

hS

I did in fact give (what I hoped was) helpful advice, forming the bulk of my post. My intent was to express the reason for my concern, and then offer suggestions for dealing with it. I think that's how things get improved?

I remain spectacularly unconvinced that "we made a room for people who don't like yelling" doesn't translate as "we made a room for complaining about the [people doing the] yelling", but I guess I wasn't actually there.

hS

As I recall, a part (definitely not all) of the yelling and drama was about whether or not everyone should follow all the rules all the time, and the alt chat was an escape for the rules-light set.

Of course, since the Constitution was amended to apply to all PPC spaces, that is less of a concern now. There's no reasonable argument that the basic PPC rules don't apply to any and all possible PPC chatrooms.

Long story short, it sucked, and we can all agree we'd like to avoid anything similar happening again, right?

~Neshomeh

From the outside, with the power dynamics suggested being reversed (the secret IRC channel last time was created by non-mods, if I recall, whereas this time it's being created by mods), it did a bit look like that.

However, I think you've more or less described the solution; as of now, all the PPC channels are public. I think a "mods discuss issues" channel is fine - but why not just make it public to the community? Those interested in the issues being discussed can chime in when they have an opinion, and otherwise it's quiet or just mods going "Hey, I did X at Y time, is everyone okay with it?"

I get the appeal of not opening it, but I think the key to good authority and good relationships with authority is not having people feel that their mods are some kind of class set apart.