Subject: That's... not the word I'd use to describe my sister. (nm)
Author:
Posted on: 2016-08-12 13:31:00 UTC
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OT: Magic, for or against? by
on 2016-08-10 03:45:00 UTC
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I've been playing Dragonfable for a long time now, and the current story arc is about this subject, and I need someone else's point of view. I'll try to give a bare-bones overview of the world, first.
Say you live on a world with an end-positive* magic system. Anyone can learn how to throw fireballs, or raise the dead. A very small percent of the population cannot tap into this energy. You can use this power for good or for bad.
I can give more details if needed, but what are your thoughts as of now?
* From the Cosmere, end-positive means that power is drawn in from an external source. In essence, power is added to the practitioner. -
Take it from an actual wizard. Magic is not a solution. by
on 2016-08-12 08:52:00 UTC
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It only means more problems.
((On a personal note, I think it could be an interesting thing. Except I think said magic would pretty much substitutes itself to science and technolgy.)) -
Lore had gnomish technology.... by
on 2016-08-12 17:29:00 UTC
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But The Rose smashed their floating city, claiming their stuff is indistinguishable from magic.
Would you consider Cyclons,
A Really Big Gerbil,
And Simas Prime*, the transforming city to be "Magic?"
I do consider The Trimmer of Dermis Detritus, or T.O.D.D to be sorcery, however.
*Yes, this came out the same day ROTF did. -
If we're mentioning Magitek... by
on 2016-08-12 18:14:00 UTC
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Shouldn't we mention Nirn's dwemer? They built stuff like spiders that can shoot lightning:
autonomous ballistas
things that can only be summed up as "steampunk Transformers with a sword-arm and a crossbow-arm"
and huge contraptions that can easily smash men to bits.
And that's without going into their cities. -
Aren't Golems Magitek? (nm) by
on 2016-08-12 21:16:00 UTC
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Depends how you define technology. by
on 2016-08-13 11:06:00 UTC
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'the application of scientific knowledge for practical purposes, especially in industry.'
Oh, thank you, er, Google, my, um, door was locked, before you came in. Thanks.
So, golems are animated statues. Statues aren't particularly practical, until they get that magic in them, so there you go.
Magiart, if you will.
I do wonder if those dwemer machines from earlier count as magitek, considering that the fellows weren't overly fond of the 'magi' part, and you could argue that all of those things (even the lightning spider) are purely technological. You know how it is, fantasy game, mysteriously advanced, suspension of disbelief.
- Neither Finch or Bingle would have actually answered this.
-- Or they might have, but I'm not really bothered coming up with something.
--- I really hope that this was a real question, and not just an RP thing. -
Not sure I agree with your assessment. by
on 2016-08-13 13:06:00 UTC
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While a statue may be an objet d'art, a golem - effectively a giant anthropomorphic forklift truck - is very definitely not. It is the real-world application of one or more thaumaturgical principles in order to observe and analyse a macroscale real-world effect. The only differentiation a golem has from an android is in its power source and construction.
Why yes, I am a member of the Golem Trust. Would you like a pamphlet? =] -
That's a spooky argument, right there. by
on 2016-08-14 01:28:00 UTC
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Right, so, your point (a very spooky point, indeed) is that magic can be considered a form of science, the application of which is then technology, in itself.
Comes down to the definition of magitek itself, then, whether it's magic comparable to technology, or (as I envision it) a marriage of naturalistic and magical principles, being a sort of sci-fi-fantasy horrific hybrid chimera monstrosity.
Tv Tropes notes that part of the nature of magitek is that magic is combined with something 'distinctively mechanical,' which, you could argue supports my definition, but, then again, Tv Tropes is always so terribly cloudy with all this stuff, I'm half expecting the site to collapse into raindrops.
I found another definition on some slang dictionary called Lingomash which says that magitek is 'any machinery that uses magic to function, or can manipulate magic,' but what the hell is Lingomash, right?
Machines are defined as 'an apparatus using mechanical power and having several parts, each with a definite function and together performing a particular task.' which certainly seems naturalistic to me.
Everything else just links over to Final Fantasy 6. Could find more, but I'm not writing a bloody essay over here, for heavens sake! Having a casual discussion over the internet!
So, then, my thoughts are, then, that a golem, composed of a statue driven by magic, lacks that mechanical/naturalistic part (statues being not particularly mechanical,) and is therefore just magic. Y'know, like wands, and enchanted swords, or magic rings.
My argument is filled with more holes than a beehive and I can't wait for it to be ripped apart. -
Well, spells and enchantments can be considered a technology by
on 2016-08-14 03:07:00 UTC
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My search on technology came up with "Technology ("science of craft", from Greek τέχνη, techne, "art, skill, cunning of hand"; and -λογία, -logia) is the collection of techniques, skills, methods and processes used in the production of goods or services or in the accomplishment of objectives, such as scientific investigation."* Based on that, technology means that you have a tool that can accomplish it's intended objective. I'd say that if magic is consistent, meaning that the same grunts and hand gestures will always net you the same fireball every time, you have a technology. The Elven Rings of power are a technology, in that they successfully preserved the Elves that lived in Arda.
On a tangent, science isn't evidence based on a hypothesis, it's a hypothesis based on evidence. If my ice beam defies the laws of thermodynamics, too bad. Go back to the drawing board. If I start floating 5 inches off the ground, no scientist has a right to stop me fom breaking their "law" of gravity. It's not actually a law, because you only think that everything must follow that rule. If it turns out its false, you should be overjoyed, because that's new knowledge. At least, that's what I think should happen. I haven't actually walked in a scientist's shoes yet.**
* Note: I should probably take what Wikipedia says with a grain of salt, but I'll take my chances.
** No, I'm not implying that I have levitated in a Scientist's shoes, either.***
*** No, I'm not a human being that can levitate.****
**** Yes, I am actually human, and not a panini press, though I do like paninis. -
Why, yes I would. by
on 2016-08-13 17:57:00 UTC
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This is sprouting into something beyond my understanding. This feels amazing.
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If magic isn't the answer, you're asking the wrong question. (nm by
on 2016-08-12 13:03:00 UTC
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Oh, it's you guys from that bad future. by
on 2016-08-12 15:23:00 UTC
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What're you doing here? I thought your timeline was erased?
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That's, uh, not how time travel works. by
on 2016-08-12 15:38:00 UTC
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I mean, not that I understand time travel that well, but apparently there's two types: one that can't change the past at all, and one that lights up an entirely new timeline. The first one can be used to travel between timelines, too - Granny Lou used to do it pretty regularly - and that's what Deborah used to come here.
So yeah, I had to follow. Dark One, unfettered access to the past, you know how it is. -
Oh, fun. by
on 2016-08-12 16:13:00 UTC
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I do hope that the me that's stuck inside a Suit, Rubric Marine-style, doesn't decide to pay a visit; never shall the selves meet, etc.
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I really regret that I cannot use a camera. by
on 2016-08-12 14:24:00 UTC
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I'm sure the face you'll do when this belief is proven wrong would have been a wonderful sight.
Eh, could almost be worth using the Sight and getting an everlasting memory of the day... -
I could take a picture for you. by
on 2016-08-12 14:33:00 UTC
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As a bonus, I'll even develop it in the potion that makes the picture move.
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Thank you very much for the proposition. by
on 2016-08-12 15:11:00 UTC
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Only thing left is a paladin screw up. Shouldn't take a very long time.
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In your dreams, Lightchaser. (nm) by
on 2016-08-12 15:39:00 UTC
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Meaning what exactly ? by
on 2016-08-12 15:42:00 UTC
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I know nonsense seems to be quite often part of magic, but explanations work pretty well too.
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Meaning it's not going to happen. by
on 2016-08-12 15:48:00 UTC
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Oh, you mean the insult? You actually need insults explained to you? Figures. I mean you're a wannabe Light One who has no hope of ever measuring up to the real thing. And that's saying something, my brother's not exactly a high bar to reach.
((And it's probably Deborah's own coinage; it's certainly not canon.)) -
I was talking about that title, 'Light Chaser'. by
on 2016-08-12 16:28:00 UTC
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I always thought that when people insult other people in a way only them can understand, that's hiding.
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You two are adorable. (nm) by
on 2016-08-12 13:08:00 UTC
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That's... not the word I'd use to describe my sister. (nm) by
on 2016-08-12 13:31:00 UTC
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Possible spoilers ahead, more information. by
on 2016-08-12 04:18:00 UTC
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I have realized that actual gameplay is very different from the dialogue and worldbuilding. Namely, almost every single class uses mana to perform their skills. It is because of that and the fact only one person has come forward saying they are mana-impaired that I jumped to the conclusion that anyone could use magic, and only a fraction of the population can't.
The following is the most complete text available ingame about how the world's magic works. It is very different compared to actual gameplay. Make of it what you will.
Magic on Lore
Magic on Lore is contained in ley lines, which run across and through the planet like haphazardly-placed latitude and longitude lines. Where these ley lines intersect, there are nexuses of magic which act as reservoirs. There are two central ley lines: the Verix, running North-South, and the Horix, running East-West. To perform feats of magic, a mage must draw on the magic contained in one of Lore's ley lines or nexuses.
Drawing from Ley Lines
The largest nexuses is the core of the planet; it contains the most pure magic available, and is centered where the Verix overlaps the Horix. There is no single mage strong enough to tap into this nexus, though it is rumored the Blue Mage or the Mad Weaponsmith have not revealed the full extent of their power, and they will neither confirm or deny their ability to utilize the central nexus. Normal nexuses and ley lines can be tapped into and drawn from safely, in controlled amounts.
As yet, no regular mage has been known to draw directly from the Core. Doing so would be like tapping a person's heart to draw blood: the pressure of the flow of blood/magic escaping would be overwhelming.
The magician would be flooded with pure magic, overcome in a deluge of power which would burn through their physical, mental, and magical veins. Their stores of mana - magical will and stamina - would be destroyed. They would be "burnt out" and lose the ability to perform magic... and their lives.
Severing another mage's connection to the ley lines IS possible, but dangerous. The potential for lashback - which would negatively affect the severing mage - is enormous. Most choose not to risk it.
Nexuses as Portals
Nexuses, formed where two or more ley lines cross, do not only act as reservoirs of magic on Lore; they can also be portals to the para-elemental plane of magic. On rare occasions, mages can directly transport themselves to the plane through the manipulation of these portals.
You may have encountered one of these portals in Lore already. Legend has it that if a magus looks inside themself and follows the pull of a focus stone, they will be led towards the nearest nexus. In that respect, it is both focus stone and lodestone.
While ley lines are fine for everyday magical needs, if the spell you are attempting requires massive amounts of magic, it would be wise to situate yourself near a nexus. The availability of extra power could mean the difference between life and death. IF you're strong enough to channel it all!
Focus stones, a Primer
Each mage on Lore has the ability to utilize a focus, usually made of a rare stone. These stones can allow the mage to hook into the ley lines and nexuses of magic which transverse the planet, and can guide them to the lines and reservoirs of magic across the world.
With practice and a stone for which they feel an affinity, a mage may also use the focus stone to enhance, to boost, their power. The crystalline structure of many stones allows it to hold the focused power mages channel through them.
As an example, think of a small tendril of a mage's power being funneled into a gemstone. That small jot of power bounces off the facets inside of the stone, gaining energy as it rebounds off the planes. That extra energy boosts power, increasing the strength of the magical working.
With the proper focus and will, a mage may find their strength greatly enhanced, the power of their spells increased manyfold. Of course, that is for normal mages. With the... unique... magic found in the Blue Mage or the Mad Weaponsmith, who knows? These two rare mages have not allowed a proper study of themselves to be made.
Source: http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=21099744 , bottom of page, in spoiler tag, highlighted. -
I Think Non-Magic Users Are As Good As Dead by
on 2016-08-11 20:04:00 UTC
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If some people can throw fireballs, and some people can't, then pretty soon, there won't be anyone left who can't throw fireballs. And since you said it's only a very small percentage that can't use magic, things that would have put them on equal footing, like firearns, would never have been invented, either because the resources wouldn't have been available, they wouldn't have been necessary (if your army has magic, you won't pay attention to making the tiny fraction of the population that doesn't battle ready), or because anyone who tried would have been assassinated by the unsavory parts of magic society.
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That depends entirely on the society. by
on 2016-08-12 11:17:00 UTC
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We live on a planet where some people don't have the ability to stop bleeding after they get cut (ie, haemophilia), and that hasn't gone extinct (even though it's/was until very recently basically a 100% mortality rate for women even if they don't get injured). We have people with various issues who are absolutely in the 'unable to defend themselves to save their lives' category, and yet mysteriously, they don't all get murdered by the age of 18.
For that matter, we have people who can drive tanks (the military) and people who can't (the everyone else), but the world isn't inhabited solely by soldiers! Just because they are easily killable doesn't mean they will be killed.
It also probably depends on how 'not being magical' comes about. Is it genetic and inheritable? Dominant or recessive? Or is it a developmental flaw? Is it racial - do people from Fantasy North Dakota lack magical powers? It could be related to lack of a trace element in the diet. Maybe it's people whose parents weren't around long enough to mystically open up their minds (subconsciously, of course), or people who don't have enough dead relatives in the past three generations to crack open their connection to the spirit world, or people who were born within the ten minutes after midnight (when, as all know, the gods rest).
Any of these possibilities, or dozens more, would give a different shape to the dynamics between them. None would lead unerringly to an extinction event.
hS -
So... what's the question? by
on 2016-08-10 07:22:00 UTC
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Are you asking whether an in-universe character should choose to use magic? Whether they should be trying to get rid of magic? Whether this is a fair system? Whether this makes for a good setting? What?
hS -
What are your thoughts? by
on 2016-08-10 08:06:00 UTC
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I mean, I hope that's the question, anyway.
I'd look a bit silly, if it wasn't. And I hate looking silly. -
The post title seemed to suggest there was... by
on 2016-08-10 09:05:00 UTC
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... something specific, I guess.
hS -
Trying to be more specific. by
on 2016-08-10 20:09:00 UTC
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My question was whether the world I outlined earlier is better or worse, and by extension, would you live in such a world?
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From what I know from this overview, by
on 2016-08-10 05:58:00 UTC
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I know I certainly wouldn't make a world with that sort of thing.
I mean, it's that butterfly effect sort of thing, isn't it?
Smallest changes to anything in history, suddenly everything's different. Everybody having the potential to create fire immediately, and straight-up defeat death right there, is, I mean, a pretty bloody big change from our history, right?
We've been positively ruled by, among other things, our climates and incoming death, for years (and still are,) and just those two examples shift things all over the place.
It'd be a pretty wild place, is what I'm saying. Endless 'what ifs.' going on.
I'd not do that because it sounds bloody hard.
Course, thoughts'll probably change with more information (how hard learning magic is, effects of using it, limitations,) but, y'know. My thoughts as of now.