Anyone familiar with Homestuck wanna weigh in?

Subject: Anyone familiar with Homestuck wanna weigh in?
Author: Neshomeh
Posted on: 2012-11-15 16:47:00 UTC

I'm not, so I don't feel comfortable making a final decision. However, I'm leaning toward a "not yet." Your writing is okay in that the SPaG checks out, but I thought the overall tone was more angry than it was funny (both characters seem to have quite the snooty 'tude on them), and I found myself confused about where we were, what was happening, who was speaking, etc., more than I like.

For instance, I didn't find out we were in a Suefic before somewhere in the middle of the second page. Up until that point, everything relating to the mission is a past-tense discussion of how it went, so I thought it was over and Cale just had an RC with an odd-colored floor.

Incidentally, did you know the crash dummies deflate into squishy cubes for storage and transportation?

Another specific issue I can point to is dialogue attribution. You really, really don't need a tag for everything, and it can become incredibly redundant, such as in this one:

- "‘I’m sorry, okay,’ she apologised"

I could see she was apologizing because she said she was sorry. The narrator didn't need to tell me that. I was paying attention, I promise.

That's the most obvious example, but it comes up elsewhere, too, as in "the troll rationalized", "she remarked", "she conceded", etc. Almost always, such tags are redundant. I know she just rationalized, remarked, or conceded something, because I read the bit where she did it. Context supplies the how and why much better than being told about it.

For comparison, here's a good example of well-attributed dialogue:

- "Cale looked at her, bemused. ‘So you know why I’m here?’"

The description of Cale's expression tells me it's her line of dialogue and supplies everything I need to know about her tone, without any extra "she verbed" bit tacked on the end. It's clean, efficient, and effective. More like this would be better; or even just "Cale said" if you need to distinguish who's talking. You can't go too far wrong with a nice, simple "said."

On the other hand, it's easy to get carried away with huffs and sniffs and snaps and sighs and other extraneous noises. It's actually very difficult to speak those sounds, particularly the sniff. I dare you to try it sometime. {; P You definitely can't speak a gesture, as here:

- "‘Cale, I am so glad you are back. Please, explain to me how the “it oon database” works,’ Narciss gestured towards the console."

Also, not to spark another argument about paragraphing, but I would really seriously discourage everyone from writing lines with one person's actions next to another person's dialogue. It can get confusing quickly. For instance, take these lines:

- "Cale glared up at a grey face, which was fixed in a disapproving expression. ‘I did try to get your attention,’ the troll rationalised. Cale moved to rub her thumb against her palm, but stopped in mid-motion. Nervous tics were dead give-aways, and although ‘Professor’ Holmes wasn’t snickering at her currently, she was trying to break the habit before the end of the semester."

This dialogue is in the middle of a paragraph all about Cale, so it should be Cale's dialogue. If the reader doesn't know the grey face goes with the troll, they're going to be confused. The problem is compounded when we get to the next paragraph:

- "‘I thought you were supposed to stay in your “tower”,’ she remarked. The troll snorted, flopping down beside her."

Who is speaking here? We just left a Cale paragraph, and a new paragraph signals a new speaker, so it can't be Cale. But wait, it actually is Cale, even though the troll has an action on that line, which would normally signal that it's the troll's dialogue.

This is a problem because time that the reader spends figuring out what's going on with the dialogue is time they're not spending being involved in the story. You want to keep them hooked and not give them any excuse to wander off until you're good and done, yes? {= )

Anyway, those are the things that jump out at me. I really think another PG or two should add their two cents, especially since I can't comment at all on the characterization of the troll.

~Neshomeh

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Permission by IntelligentAirhead on 2012-11-12 23:20:00 UTC Reply

I have resurfaced from the wreckage of my broken keyboard to request permission. Here we go!

Requested Division: Department of Floaters, Internship/Freelance

Agents:

Intern Cale Serfe is a haughty teenage girl originally from World One. With dirty blonde hair- often left in a choppy, mussed state- and grey eyes, she stands at the unimpressive height of one hundred and sixty five centimetres. After learning of the Sue-driven attacks on IAHF's extensive library, she applied for an internship at the PPC. Once she graduates she plans to join the PPC as a full operative.
Cale is prone to fits of laziness that are signalled by her constant refrain of, “I just want to read,” “leave me here to die,” and “bring me a snack pack.” She has an extensive vicious streak if angered. When her lust objects are threatened- though she denies the existence of such beings- she will seek blood. Throughout the duration of her good moods she is sarcastic, and in a bad mood she can become downright cruel.
Despite this, she is indulgent with those she has taken a liking to. This extends to a near ridiculous level. She will constantly bring them up in conversations and fret over their well-being. This is her general approach to animals, with the exception being cute-animal friends.
Cale is a massive hoarder, rivalling Smaug in her selectiveness. She holds a small grudge against her 'partner' for being accepted as an agent right away, even though she understands why.

Agent Narciss Miner is a generic background troll who Cale recruited from a Sue fic in the Homestuck continuum. She has the standard grey skin, black hair, and horns of her species. Narciss feels very proud of her horns, and will often spend a large amount of time arranging her hair to show them off.
She feels uncomfortable while idle, and tends to keep herself busy at all times. Despite this, or perhaps because of it, she is likely to leap into things without planning ahead.
Narciss grasps most of the PPC standard rules of grammar, and studies them often; however, she is constantly frustrated by the lack of conveying tone through speech patterns. She complains that the absence of a quirk is boring. Her own quirk follows the pattern of the following sentence: I=refuse=tQ=b1ay=these=chi1dish=games=befQre=cQmb1eting=the=missiQn
As she does not use end punctuation, she will start sentences on new lines.
When Narciss first joined the PPC, Cale dumped a large collection of classic literature on her. She now uses references as curses, explanations, or misdirections in conversations.
Narciss is protective of even vague acquaintances as she sees them as extensions of herself. Members of FicPsych have had long, in-depth talks with her on why this is an unhealthy world view, but she is allowed to go on missions so long as she checks in for weekly sessions.

Permission Fic: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HPQD85klGvSU4pfxGKEFrRZ3kwb-oZOMZbaemHLPLWQ/edit

Badfic Claim: A Homestuck Sue!fic filed under the charming title: Troll the Troll
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/7380773/1/Troll-the-Troll

Please tell me if anything is amiss!

Anyone familiar with Homestuck wanna weigh in? by Neshomeh on 2012-11-15 16:47:00 UTC Reply

I'm not, so I don't feel comfortable making a final decision. However, I'm leaning toward a "not yet." Your writing is okay in that the SPaG checks out, but I thought the overall tone was more angry than it was funny (both characters seem to have quite the snooty 'tude on them), and I found myself confused about where we were, what was happening, who was speaking, etc., more than I like.

For instance, I didn't find out we were in a Suefic before somewhere in the middle of the second page. Up until that point, everything relating to the mission is a past-tense discussion of how it went, so I thought it was over and Cale just had an RC with an odd-colored floor.

Incidentally, did you know the crash dummies deflate into squishy cubes for storage and transportation?

Another specific issue I can point to is dialogue attribution. You really, really don't need a tag for everything, and it can become incredibly redundant, such as in this one:

- "‘I’m sorry, okay,’ she apologised"

I could see she was apologizing because she said she was sorry. The narrator didn't need to tell me that. I was paying attention, I promise.

That's the most obvious example, but it comes up elsewhere, too, as in "the troll rationalized", "she remarked", "she conceded", etc. Almost always, such tags are redundant. I know she just rationalized, remarked, or conceded something, because I read the bit where she did it. Context supplies the how and why much better than being told about it.

For comparison, here's a good example of well-attributed dialogue:

- "Cale looked at her, bemused. ‘So you know why I’m here?’"

The description of Cale's expression tells me it's her line of dialogue and supplies everything I need to know about her tone, without any extra "she verbed" bit tacked on the end. It's clean, efficient, and effective. More like this would be better; or even just "Cale said" if you need to distinguish who's talking. You can't go too far wrong with a nice, simple "said."

On the other hand, it's easy to get carried away with huffs and sniffs and snaps and sighs and other extraneous noises. It's actually very difficult to speak those sounds, particularly the sniff. I dare you to try it sometime. {; P You definitely can't speak a gesture, as here:

- "‘Cale, I am so glad you are back. Please, explain to me how the “it oon database” works,’ Narciss gestured towards the console."

Also, not to spark another argument about paragraphing, but I would really seriously discourage everyone from writing lines with one person's actions next to another person's dialogue. It can get confusing quickly. For instance, take these lines:

- "Cale glared up at a grey face, which was fixed in a disapproving expression. ‘I did try to get your attention,’ the troll rationalised. Cale moved to rub her thumb against her palm, but stopped in mid-motion. Nervous tics were dead give-aways, and although ‘Professor’ Holmes wasn’t snickering at her currently, she was trying to break the habit before the end of the semester."

This dialogue is in the middle of a paragraph all about Cale, so it should be Cale's dialogue. If the reader doesn't know the grey face goes with the troll, they're going to be confused. The problem is compounded when we get to the next paragraph:

- "‘I thought you were supposed to stay in your “tower”,’ she remarked. The troll snorted, flopping down beside her."

Who is speaking here? We just left a Cale paragraph, and a new paragraph signals a new speaker, so it can't be Cale. But wait, it actually is Cale, even though the troll has an action on that line, which would normally signal that it's the troll's dialogue.

This is a problem because time that the reader spends figuring out what's going on with the dialogue is time they're not spending being involved in the story. You want to keep them hooked and not give them any excuse to wander off until you're good and done, yes? {= )

Anyway, those are the things that jump out at me. I really think another PG or two should add their two cents, especially since I can't comment at all on the characterization of the troll.

~Neshomeh

Not a PG, but familiar with Homestuck. by LunarHuntress on 2012-11-15 23:47:00 UTC Reply

With my my two cents about the troll agent, specifically.

Overall, she's pretty good. I like her speech patterns, and I like how you describe her accent shown by her quirk. Her personality looks good, but could probably be fleshed out a little better. Most of her character bio was taken up describing her quirk. In fact, her personality in the fic - while good! - didn't seem to reflect the character bio very well. Also, some character questions that might help solidify her personality, that most fantrolls state in their intro - How old is she? What's her blood color? What are some of her interests? And the more PPC-related - Being a bit character, does she remember Alternia at all, and if so, how has that shaped her?

The two major problems I have are actually the easiest things to fix: her name and her quirk.

For her name - Narciss Miner. Troll first and last names, at least when they're kids, are six letters long. This is a thing that we can be reasonably sure is universal. She can be Narcis Minner or Narcis Minerr or even Narcis Sminer. You could make the argument that the 6/6 thing hasn't been stated in canon to explicitly and always be true, but I would advise against deviating from the set pattern.

And second, her quirk. I really like the idea of the = in the spaces, but the letter replacements seem just awkward enough to make her text difficult to read. Especially as it's already got the equals signs, I would advise choosing one letter replacement, not all three.

Other than that, though, any other nitpicks I have could be explained by "we just haven't seen enough of her yet." For example, I was wondering - in her bio it says she "is protective of even vague acquaintances as she sees them as extensions of herself." She doesn't seem that way at all about Cale or the dead Sue, though. Is that just because she didn't like them? I was a little confused.

That's it for serious critique. If you don't know Homestuck, the next bit won't make any sense, and even if you do, it might be overly wordy and boring, but I just wanted to talk about one of my personal pet peeves: misuse of the word "pity."

I'd be careful about throwing around the word "pity." Only Karkat has ever used the word "pity" for positive feelings. Terezi, Vriska, Roxy, and the narration all use "pity" to mean the normal human definition of "pity," and the trolls certainly use the words "love" and "friendship" all the time. Note that in the incredibly long troll romance exposition, the word "pity" was not used even once. Most common fandom theory is that Karkat is as full of crap when it comes to romance as Kankri is when it comes to social justice, and his hate/pity stuff is a fringe nutcase theory, if he didn't come up with it himself. It would explain why he had to explain it all to Vriska that one time - if it were the standard accepted theory, wouldn't she know all that already? (For reference, the word "pity" is used in Act 5 twelve times: it was only used to mean "positive relationships" eight times, and those were all by Karkat, and six of them were in the same conversation with Vriska. On the other hand, the word "friend" is used by trolls something like 55 times, and "friendship" seven times, in Act 5 Act 1 alone.)(And I know it says "the word for friend is exactly the same as the word for enemy" but that clearly isn't true. So I don't know.)

Not to say you shouldn't use the word pity. Obviously "most common fan theory" isn't canon, not by a long shot. As it is in the fic, it works just fine - in fact, it was kind of amusing and i liked it - but I would just be careful and use it sparingly, and remember that when you want to talk about friendship and love, use those words - friendship and love.

Thanks! by IntelligentAirhead on 2012-11-16 01:35:00 UTC Reply

I hadn't noticed the six letter rule, and I'm glad to learn something new! The quirk was created when my keyboard broke, and I had to type like that for a week. Readability is a big issue, so I'd be happy to revise the quirk.
As for the protective bit, Narciss takes an affront to herself in higher priority than anyone in a "lesser" position.
Everything else I had planned to address in the wiki entry- provided the agents were accepted- such as Narciss' (or Narcis, now) version of Alternia. My original intent was to put them in the character summary, but it then extended into around nine paragraphs. Sylladex pondering can be Serious Business.
Thank you so much for separating Karkat rage from facts. I tend to take anything a character says as fact and that does not seem to work well with Homestuck. Eventually I will learn.
Thanks again!

So... guess it's still on me, then. by Neshomeh on 2012-11-19 23:11:00 UTC Reply

I'm really on the fence at this point, so here's what I propose: go ahead with your first mission, keeping in mind the feedback you've gotten, and send it to me when you're done. Then I'll be able to see what your actual mission-writing looks like, and if there aren't any glaring issues, that will be that.

My address is neshomeh (dot) soul (at) gmail (dot) com, with the obvious punctuation replacements.

Sound good?

~Neshomeh

Wow! Thank you so much! by IntelligentAirhead on 2012-11-20 04:33:00 UTC Reply

I will try my best! Thank you for giving me this opportunity.

Alrighty! by IntelligentAirhead on 2012-11-15 19:26:00 UTC Reply

I really do need to work on my redundant tag lines, and I'm glad that you brought them to my attention. As for the words themselves, said and I are not the best of friends. I'll try to clip my dialogue into shape.
As for the tone, I visualised the two as grating against the nerves of the other until they find a way to get along. I promise you that if they do end up on missions together at any further point in time that they will be far more relaxed each other's company.
I did know about the cubes, so I made an attempt at keeping it as a burdensome annoyance for Cale. Oh well! Thank you for checking things out!

Not a permissions giver by Sevenswans on 2012-11-14 16:57:00 UTC Reply

The first thing I noticed was the tone. It's clear that Cale has been around the block for a while (appropriate for someone coming from a fanfiction academy - those places can get rough) and she seems to be adjusted well enough to the missions aspect of the PPC to already work through things.

That's actually very interesting - an agent who plans things out rather than jumping into a fic with the DORKS and the closest weapon and waiting until they figure they have clearance to kill stuff. Also, it makes for great background to her being an overenthusiastic intern and learning why most people just show up and shoot things.

I'm supposed to be confused by the troll, right? I don't know Homestuck. Though, it seems like she'll make a decent recruit... I'm a little fuzzy on when she learned anything about the PPC (her demands that Cale take her home and such come off as having a rudimentary idea of what the PPC does,) but it seems that they sorted things out.

I do start to wonder about the contents of the badfic - since I don't have background for why the two are arguing until they actually start arguing. One nitpick I do have about this is that it seems as if their final argument leaves things very up in the air and ends on an odd note. It doesn't seem to flow as well as the first half.

Considering her guest-starring in two of my missions, by Lily Winterwood on 2012-11-15 00:59:00 UTC Reply

I'd say Cale knew more or less what goes on. The intern programme at the PPC allows said interns to shadow Agents on missions, so...
Yeah- by IntelligentAirhead on 2012-11-15 00:00:00 UTC Reply

The troll is indeed a continua thing. If you ever have a free week or so and a sudden need for sleep deprivation you can try Homestuck out.

Being a generic fic troll, and seeing how they usually appear in Sue fics with near exclusivity, I imagined that in her experience PPC agents neutralised the threat and sent everyone else home.

I am not quite so happy with the second half.
It likely has much to do with my very flimsy grasp of Narciss' character so far, and I hope that practice will smooth things out. It may also be affected by the fact that I have spent most of my life trying to avoid arguments, and therefore no nothing of their composition.

On the awkward atmosphere between the two, that might dissipate as they slip into inevitable passive aggressive warfare.

Well, I think you know my thoughts. :3 by Lily Winterwood on 2012-11-13 03:18:00 UTC Reply

Here's to hoping you get Permission and stuff! /beams luck your way

Thank you, Lily! by IntelligentAirhead on 2012-11-13 22:11:00 UTC Reply

Have another thousand pounds of tangible gratitude for all your help. It means a lot that you took time from college apps to help me get my stuff together, and you are the bomb diggity. I think that is how it's spelled. Anyway, I'm bringing it back because that is just how awesome you are. /clings to you and papps your face