Looks good to me. ^_^

Wild speculation on where the Silmarils are these days by Tomash on 2018-04-21 00:17:00 UTC Reply

So I came across this bit of rather crack-y theorizing about the current location of the Silmarils. It seemed like the sort of thing people here might like, so here it is.

I uncritically accept the second theory. by Huinesoron on 2018-04-22 18:29:00 UTC Reply

San Tulkas makes so much sense. I assume the original gifts were food, as seen in the traditional elven tale of Good King Wénceslassë. If we assume Tulkas set up shop right after the fall of Utumno, he would initially have been giving to the Avari - the Quendi who refused to voyage to Valinor. Given that the only Valinorean contact they'd had was with Oromë the Hunter, Tulkas probably took up hunting himself so as not to overly spook them. Then, when Men eventually showed up, he just stuck with it.

Now, the other theory I have problems with, starting the the fact that it's introduced with a reference to the Fifth Age. Tolkien was pretty clear that we were in the Sixth or Seventh (he seemed to view one or both of the World Wars as the changeover). So, tut!

I also protest the characterisation of Maglor. First off, who says Elves are white? The Noldor have always been the darkest-coloured elves (Galadriel's branch aside, House Finarfin is barely Noldorin); it's only our assumptions that make us picture them as paler than pale. Tolkien, notably, spent far more time describing eyes and hair than skin (assuming you accept 'fair' as not indicating colour). So the whole illusion aspect is irrelevant. (It also shows a kind of 'illusion' that doesn't appear in Tolkien - elven disguises were always item based, not 'magic' like that.)

Secondly, Maglor wouldn't be hunting the Silmaril! He threw the blessed thing into the ocean, why would he go after it again? Yes, the Oath was still out there, but he knew to let well alone.

I also highly doubt that any group of Quendi would take their name from a king of Numenor. I'm pretty sure 'Atanamir' means 'Jewel of Men', too, which (though connecting to the jewel theme) is distinctly human, not elven.

hS

So what do Silmarils actually do? (nm) by 61516 on 2018-04-22 18:39:00 UTC Reply

They is pretty rocks. ^_^ by Huinesoron on 2018-04-23 12:46:00 UTC Reply

No, I mean, the whole drama surrounding the Silmarilli is an intersection of two related things:

-The Silmarils themselves. Made by Feanor, they contain the last uncorrupted light of the Two Trees. They're basically a slice of paradise, which is why everyone wants them. They're also... kind of maybe a little bit alive? It's hard to tell. Probably not as much as the Ring is, for instance, but maybe a little. They've also been blessed by Varda, meaning nothing evil can touch them without being burned. This comes back in a big way to haunt Melkor, Carcharoth, possibly Ancalagon (it's not unreasonable to guess that Earendil's dragon-slaying antics were related to his possession of the Silmaril), and ultimately Maedhros and Maglor.

-The Oath of Feanor was a binding oath made by Feanor and his sons to never let anyone else have the Silmarils. And it is most definitely 'alive'. Every time House Feanor do something stupid (which they do a lot), it's because the Oath has been quiet for too long and starts pushing them. Its explicit invocation in Nargothrond is enough to make the entire city abandon its king, despite the fact that there's only actually two Sons of Feanor present.

The Oath, and the fact that it binds them unless released by the One Himself (and God doesn't much go in for chatting with House Feanor), is responsible for all three Kinslayings, and the fall of every Elven realm in Beleriand, with the possible exception of Gondolin (depending on how much you feel the Oath was behind the debacle of the Nirnaeth).

Oh, and I guess there's a third intersecting thing: the Doom of Mandos.

Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains. On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also. Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass. The Dispossessed shall they be for ever.

Ye have spilled the blood of your kindred unrighteously and have stained the land of Aman. For blood ye shall render blood, and beyond Aman ye shall dwell in Death's shadow. For though Eru appointed to you to die not in Eä, and no sickness may assail you, yet slain ye may be, and slain ye shall be: by weapon and by torment and by grief; and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you. And those that endure in Middle-earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after. The Valar have spoken.

Part prophecy, part curse, part sheer intimidation, the Doom of Mandos accurately predicts the results of House Feanor's obsession with the Silmarils, and is also just plain awesome. ^_^ Seriously, read that through again.

But the Silmarilli themselves? They glow, and they burn bad people, and maybe they make people want them. That's about it.

hS

That sounds a lot like the One Ring. (nm) by 61516 on 2018-04-23 21:52:00 UTC Reply

Yes and no. by Neshomeh on 2018-04-24 04:10:00 UTC Reply

Broadly, the Silmarils and the One Ring (and all the Great Rings) are artifacts imbued with power.

The Rings, unlike the Silmarils, actually do stuff. Not big flashy stuff, because that's not how magic in Middle-earth works, but stuff nonetheless. Narya the Ring of Fire granted powers of inspiration; Nenya the Ring of Water, of preservation; and Vilya the Ring of Air... I'm not sure. It's supposed to be the greatest of the three, and considering the association with air and Manwë, possibly foresight, which we know Elrond had?

The One Ring specifically is imbued with the power and the active malice of Sauron, and almost certainly has a non-sapient will. It's described as wanting to be found, seeking a way back to its master, drawing the Nazgûl to it, etc., and it certainly makes its bearer want to use it. Those who hold the One Ring are tempted by visions of their greatest ambitions, all the things they could achieve with its power. But power, as we know, corrupts.

It can only grant power according to the bearer's ability to wield it, though, so it's less dangerous in the hands of a hobbit than it would be in the hands of an elf or an istar. And hobbitish ambitions aren't that grand, either, so they're less easy to tempt.

(How'd I do, hS?)

~Neshomeh

Looks good to me. ^_^ by Huinesoron on 2018-04-25 09:49:00 UTC Reply

I've always thought the Ring of Air was associated with protection and concealment: Rivendell is impossibly well-hidden, which could be the power of Vilya at work, but I think Elrond also says it's protected by the ring.

Which makes me think... we're used to thinking of the Three as basically an attempt by Celebrimbor to passively preserve everything, much like Galadriel does Lorien. But actually, if they were all used together, the Three would be an amazing offensive weapon.

-You use Vilya for stealth, and to help shield your armies from attack.
-You use Narya to rally the troops, boosting their morale to incredible levels.
-You use Nenya to control the battlefield. Just based on the Fellowship's visit to Lorien, you could use it to confuse time for your enemies, forcing their united front to straggle in over a couple of weeks.

Which, if you feel like being a Sauron apologist, offers a whole new explanation for his own actions: he knew full well that the Three would eventually be used against him (Noldor are incredibly racist against Melkorites; he had to basically dress up as one of them to get a friendly greeting), so he forged the One not primarily to control the other rings, but to spy on the Three. It's an intelligence effort, really.

... and then he declared war, massacred everyone, and used Celebrimbor's corpse as a battle flag, because Sauron ain't actually the good guy. But still!

hS
main thought by 61516 on 2018-04-25 01:44:00 UTC Reply

I was mostly thinking of the fact that the primary power of both is to make people want them.

From a writing perspective, absolutely. by Huinesoron on 2018-04-25 09:42:00 UTC Reply

Both the Jewels and the Ring are macguffins of the 'everyone wants to get hold of it' variety. They both serve other purposes to the story (the Ring lets Frodo and Sam sneak around and also acts as a beacon of sorts for Sauron, the Silmaril lets Carcharoth break into Doriath), but their primary role is to be a prize.

From an in-universe perspective, though, that's a secondary effect, and the two couldn't be more different. The Ring is a creation of power and control - its wielder can use it to basically take over the world. The Jewels, on the other hand, are important because they're the last uncorrupted drop of light. They 'want' to be preserved, whereas the Ring 'wants' to be used.

hS

thanks (nm) by 61516 on 2018-04-26 01:01:00 UTC Reply

YES by 61516 on 2018-04-21 02:57:00 UTC Reply

I just got back into the works of Tolkien via Blind Guardian, and this hit the spot.