Subject: Given that the main events are all murders and massacres...
Author:
Posted on: 2017-10-22 06:04:00 UTC
I'm going with 'the least depressing from a really terrible Age'.
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So I just finished The Children of Húrin. by
on 2017-10-20 23:15:00 UTC
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Late to the party, as usual, but now I'm here! Who wants to talk about how Túrin could have averted his fate simply by noticing the beautiful Elven women throwing themselves at him left and right? {= D
(Also, hS, it kinda looks like the Anfauglith actually is sandy? O.o Still not a pretty desert, but there are definite mentions of sand and dunes and dun-colored gear blending in there. )
~Neshomeh -
The crimes of Turin the Blacksword. by
on 2017-10-21 07:13:00 UTC
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-That he did take for himself Anglachel the cursed blade, and by its evil brought about many deaths.
-That he did flee the realm of Doriath to escape judgement, though he ought to have trusted in the wisdom of Thingol.
-That by so doing did he cause the departure of Morwen and Nienor from that same realm, and bring about their loss.
-That he did take up with outlaws, and condone the killing of innocents who happened upon their lair; and that by this course was Khim son of Mim slain, and emnity wrought which brought to pass his own betrayal.
-That he did alter the pattern of war waged by Nargothrond the Fair, betraying its location and bringing about its fall.
-That he did seek to contend with the Worm of Morgoth, becoming bewitched and seeking not to save Finduilas the Radiant from her fate.
-That he held his name as secret, depriving his ensorcelled sister of the chance to recover her mind.
-That he did slay Brandir the Blameless, prince of Brethil, for speaking only the truth.
Notably, I don't hold him responsible for the things he did: the death of Saeros, the killing of Beleg, and his marriage to Nienor. Those have the feel of fate about them, twisted by Morgoth. But the rest? That's Turin's own choices, and I hold him full guilty.
I really don't understand why Tolkien liked him so. He's not a hero, or even an antihero - just a blundering oaf with a talent for breaking things. Philosopher@Large once said that she wrote Beren by thinking 'what /wouldn't/ Turin do?', and I think that sums him up perfectly. (Fight me.)
As for noticing women... well, if he'd recognised that Nellas even /existed/, his whole story goes away, since she was the witness that could have exonerated him. But I'm not sure noticing Finduilas would have helped any. He still would have taken Nargothrond to war, and it was Glaurung's gaze that led him to ignore her, not his own disregard.
The Anfauglith: well, dunes can be of things other than sand. What's the difference between sand and dessicated soil anyway? I see Tolkien does use the word 'sand' itself, but I still don't think it's what we'd think of (golden beaches and red deserts).
You're right about 'dun-coloured', though. Hmm... Ard-Galen could have been reddish clay or something, or founded on sandstone; either would have allowed a tan-grey colour dust to form. Given the lack of rainfall out there, there's probably only a few designs that would let it grow anyway, I bet we could narrow it down.
/Or/, Tolkien wrote the Nirnaeth before he ever concieved of Ard Galen, and never changed the 'desert' to account for its history. Y'know. Just saying.
hS -
I blame his mother. by
on 2017-10-21 19:31:00 UTC
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She set a bad example, being all proud and aloof (until she got old and crazy and decided running off into the wilderness after her dumb kid was a great idea, for which I don't blame T). She never taught him how to deal with other people properly.
"Túrin, why are you watching your little sister like that? It's creepy. Just go play with her."
"Túrin, why are you hanging around old Sador so much? Surely there are kids your own age to interact with somewhere in this holding? Go socialize!"
"Túrin, I know you don't want to leave home, and neither do I, but sometimes we have to bow to wisdom and do what's best for others rather than please ourselves."
Right?
Re. Khîm and Mîm, I get the impression from CoH that Mîm turned traitor because he got jealous of the friendship of Túrin and Beleg. Speaking of which, I'm not sure what T ever did to deserve Beleg. Was he so pretty that Beleg fell for him, too? That just about explains it.
Maybe if he'd realized that Finduilas' feelings for him were the reason Gwindor cooled toward him, and made more intelligent decisions about Gwindor's advice. I mean, probably not, because he's a headstrong idiot, but maybe.
Will have to do more research into Ard-galen/Anfauglith, I guess. I do wonder what differences there are between CoH and the Silm.
I wonder if Tolkien didn't like Túrin so much as Túrin's story, which is a classical-feeling Oedipus Rex sort of tragedy with a dash of Romeo & Juliet thrown in at the end. And T did slay a dragon. Not too many people can say that.
Tolkien also really liked Beren & Lúthien, who have a much better (if still tragic) story.
Do Elves like depressing stories, or are these actually the least depressing from a really terrible Age?
~Neshomeh, rambling. -
Now, now, be fair to Morwen. by
on 2017-10-23 11:03:00 UTC
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CoH specifically says that her speech to him was 'forthright', so she clearly did try and teach him. But she's pretty messed up herself. Don't forget that Morwen and Rian are Beren's baby cousins (their grandfather Bregolas was Barahir's brother); Morwen was 12 when the Dagor Bragollach killed half her family, and lived in besieged Dorthonion for the next year or so. Then she was taken to Brethil by Emeldir at age 13, and sometime in the following eight years was uprooted again to move to Dor-Lomin.
In that time, she would have heard of the death of her entire remaining family - Barahir and his band were wiped out in 460, when Morwen was 17. So she's one of the last of a dying breed, whose adolesence took place in the home of another dying breed (CoH makes it clear how badly the Haladin were doing by this time). Then she moved to a third location, where - wonder of wonders! - she's taken to wife by the new Lord of Dor-Lomin at the age of 21.
And then she has her first child the same year. And another two years later. And everyone calls her 'Elfsheen', because her beauty is the only thing they care about. And, oh yeah, her husband is keeping a huge secret from her, with the Gondolin thing (CoH specifically features the conversation where she says 'you did go to Gondolin, right?', and he replies 'I never said that, but yeah'). Oh, and apart from her cousin Beren (who people keep bringing reports about him dying, in Dorthonion, in Tol Sirion, in Doriath...), she's probably the heir of Beor - not that anyone cares, because her husband's more interested in hanging out with Fingon and playing with his axe. (His great chair was never finished, despite Sador having a good ten years to work on it - it's obvious he wasn't around much.)
This is not a recipe for a well-balanced woman. She sees herself as Lady of two peoples (and is aware that Brethil is a horrible place - she was present for the Orc invasion of '57, when she was 14 - so she may well end up as guardian of their culture, too), in a world where absolutely everything you love is prone to dying/catching fire at any moment. "One day, you will be Lord of Dor-Lomin," she tells her young son (he's 5 when he takes up stalking Lalaith). "And when you are, it will be your job to guard us - all of us. Just the way your father does. That's why he's never here - he's protecting us, keeping us safe. That's why."
Morwen had serious problems, and absolutely no-one helped her with them. Heck, when she's literally dying she meets her husband again and asks him to tell her about their children - but instead he just sits in silence until she pops her clogs. Read that final scene again, and think how utterly miserable it is to be Morwen then.
~
It's clear that Beleg saw something in Turin. You might actually be write about 'just so pretty' - Beleg is he of the 'Mablung and' pairing, so it's clear he, uh, craved male companionship. ^_~ And Turin is both a bold warrior, and the man they called 'Adanedhel' - 'Elf-man'.
I don't think Turin knows what love looks like. His mother was impossibly guarded, his father was never around, his best friend was a servant. As a half-Beorian (with Haladin habits from his mother, no doubt!) he was an outsider in Dor-Lomin. The only person he was particularly fond of was his baby sister.
So he doesn't notice people having feelings towards him. Nellas? Nothing. Beleg? Nope. Finduilas? De nada. The only one he picks up on is... the one he gets to teach to talk, and interact with the way he did was Lalaith. (Also the one who literally threw herself at him while naked; that may have been something of a shock to him.)
In fact, Turin's story is basically mirrored around the centrepoint. It goes like this:
-Turin is born.
-He is friends with a cripple.
-He is heir to the Dragon of Dor-Lomin.
-He loves his little sister and protects her without her knowing he's there.
-His sister dies.
-A distant war leads to the destruction of his homeland.
-He moves to an Elven kingdom, where he is a beloved ward, but treated as a child.
-He leaves after killing someone.
-He is captured by outlaws, and kills their chief.
-BELEG ARRIVES.
-His outlaws are killed by their host, and he is captured.
-He kills Beleg, but rescues Gwindor.
-He moves to an elven kingdom, where he is beloved as a war leader, and treated like a noble of their people.
-He causes a war which leads to the destruction of the kingdom.
-(Intermission running back and forth to Dor-Lomin.)
-He restores his sister to normal life.
-He falls in love with his little sister without knowing who she is.
-He fights the Dragon of Morgoth.
-He murders a cripple.
-He dies.
It's a neatly put-together story... but I find its protagonist thoroughly unlikable, and always have.
(As a side note: confirmed dragonslayers of Middle-earth are Turin, Earendil, Fram son of Frumgar, Bard. Between them, they killed all four named dragons.)
hS -
Well when you put it like that... by
on 2017-10-23 19:34:00 UTC
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Yeah, her story is pretty awful. What kind of mental state do you have to be in to name one of your kids "Mourning"? I stand corrected, and I take it back.
I think Húrin probably loved her for more than her beauty, though. We don't see much of them interacting, but I feel like they probably made good foils for each other, him lifting her out of perpetual solemnity and her bringing him down to earth a bit. She certainly loved him enough to wait around for him even when the sensible thing would have been to run away, small child or no. She wasn't doing anyone else any good by staying.
It certainly would have helped matters if Húrin had been around more, though. Can we pin the blame on the absentee father? {; P
~
Wait, is Beleg/Mablung an established fandom thing? I was not aware of this.
And yeah, nothing changes the fact that Túrin is a big heel. He has his moments of goodness, but I think they're overbalanced by pride and stubbornness and anger issues.
~Neshomeh -
Given that the main events are all murders and massacres... by
on 2017-10-22 06:04:00 UTC
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I'm going with 'the least depressing from a really terrible Age'.
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Two answers. by
on 2017-10-22 08:45:00 UTC
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One is that elves - for whatever reason - don't seem to write the nice stuff down. The Silm jumps over several hundred years because Morgoth wasn't attacking at that point, so who cares? They never wrote out the history of Doriath prior to the First Battle, either. Maybe they remember the good times in some other way, or maybe it's a religious belief - that in Arda Marred, recording things that could come from Arda Unmarred is almost blasphemous.
Secondly, elves are really bad at /doing/ stuff. There were no elf-organised attempts to infiltrate Angband and steal the Silmarils, even though they had hundreds of years and Beren threw one together in a season or two. No elven army marched on Sauron through the entire Second Age - even when he invaded them! (The Last Alliance was clearly a Dunedain idea.) The four times the Noldor took the initiative are the three Kinslayings, and the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. Elves aren't about 'doing' - they're about 'being'.
I bet the /dwarven/ history of the First Age would be much more exciting.
hS -
Send that to Christopher. by
on 2017-10-22 11:01:00 UTC
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I'm sure he'll do a bit more digging in the Professor's waste paper basket and find something
lucrativealong those lines. =] -
Well, about that. by
on 2017-10-22 21:01:00 UTC
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I just so happen to have dug up the perfect response to the 'money-grubbing Christopher Tolkien' notion.
Mercenary CT: An Alternate Timeline
"1981: Concurrent with the release of 'John Boorman's The Lord of the Rings', 'The Lord of the Rings II: The Dark Tide' is published. It is critically derided as Puerile Adolescent Wish Fulfilment, though some publications praise it as a guilty pleasure, but is a resounding commercial success, topping the New York Times Bestsellers list for several weeks. Reaction from Tolkien fans is split, mostly between those who want Middle-earth to be considered Tolkien's creation alone with no extraneous work from other authors, and those who believe Middle-earth should be shared with everyone. The most common criticism is that the story is almost identical in construction to The Lord of the Rings, including two Hobbit heroes and a quest to destroy an artifact of terrible power."
"1995: 'Disney's The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King' is released. Not as successful as its predecessors critically or commercially, though still a hit, here the divergences from the book are most profound: the Witch-King fights Legolas to add further angst to the Aragorn-Legolas romance, Sauron personally leads the army at Minas Tirith before being defeated by Aragorn when the ring's destruction leaves him vulnerable, and Gollum becomes a fully-fledged hero by saving Sam from Shelob and finally destroying the ring himself. The story ends with Frodo crowned King of the Shire, Aragorn & Legolas founding the United Kingdom of Men and Elves, and everyone lives happily ever after. No Scouring, no Grey Havens, no passing of magic, and the inversion of Tolkien's world is complete."
Yeah.
hS -
He's not just after money. by
on 2017-10-22 22:29:00 UTC
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He's after a revenue stream he can control. That's why we're still waiting for a halfway decent biography of Tolkien, btw - the estate won't let go of his papers until they've been milked absolutely dry, and even then it'll be with a fairly heavy heart.
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Mm... nah. I disagree with you. ^_~ by
on 2017-10-23 09:39:00 UTC
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The thing to remember is that Christopher Tolkien grew up with Middle-earth. He was there for the Hobbit stories, and he's the one his father sent chunks of it to during WWII (he was down in South Africa, I believe). Then, when his father died, he was given absolute control over what to do with everything.
And he doesn't want to mess that up. Doesn't want to go against his father's vision. That's why he followed up the published Silmarillion with a twelve-volume series explaining his editorial decisions: because he wants people to know what the Professor actually wrote.
So seeing someone turn it into 'action movies for 15-25 year olds' is like his worst nightmare. Where the Professor had the destruction of the English countryside, Christopher has the 'destruction' of Middle-earth. We will never see a Silmarillion movie in CT's lifetime, because it wouldn't match what his father envisaged, and he can't cope with that idea.
As for biographies, we've got that biopic coming, right? If you're looking for one to read, I recommend Tolkien and the Great War, which leans heavily on what's arguably the most interesting period of his life: his weird childhood, his courtship of Edith, his service on the Somme, and the very beginnings of Middle-earth.
Also, the Humphrey Carpenter biography was written by someone who actually knew him, which makes it hard to top for 'authenticity'; not saying it's good, but it has that going for it. And don't forget Letters is out there...
hS