Subject: Are you sure about that?
Author:
Posted on: 2017-10-30 18:12:00 UTC
Inquisitor Kryptman was declared Excommunicate Traitoris, yes, but he was never killed. The general consensus was that he was right because it bought the Imperium time it didn't otherwise have to prepare. And he was declared Traitoris in response to his burning of dozens of Imperial worlds that were being fed on by Tyranid fleets, not the redirection.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/15LUQJJ6c54vmzBUsfqSgajRdURooz3pvD5yzUmlXU0/edit?usp=sharing
So, this is copied from #recsand_plugs on the Discord, after I proceeded to go into WAYYY too much spammy detail for the channel regarding an awesome (at least I hope) crossover concept my sister and I have been working on. Compiled to a doc and presented for any who want to check it out. Feel free to leave comments here since they're disabled on the doc itself.
The Horus Heresy/Star Wars opening crawls. (Spoiler alerts are in effect for various Horus Heresy novels)
Episode I: THE PHANTOM MENACE
Turmoil has engulfed the Imperium of Man. The worship of the Emperor of Mankind as a god is in dispute.
Hoping to resolve the matter once and for all, the Emperor sends the Ultramarines to bombard the small Word Bearers planet of Khur.
While the Council of the Terra endlessly debates this alarming religion, Lorgar Aurelian has secretly dispatched his Word Bearers, the guardians of truth and the Word in the galaxy, to settle the conflict...."
Episode II: ATTACK OF THE CLONES
"There is unrest in the Council of Terra. Several Legions have declared their intentions to leave the Imperium.
This separatist movement, under the leadership of the Warmaster Horus Lupercal, has made it difficult for the limited number of Loyal Legions to maintain peace and order in the galaxy.
Primarch Corax, the Lord of the Raven Guard, is returning to the Emperor to ask for aid in rebuilding his shattered Legion...."
Episode III: REVENGE OF THE SIXTH
"War! The Empire is reeling from a revolt on Mars. There are heroes on both sides. Chaos is everywhere.
In a stunning move, the Thousand Sons Primarch, Magnus, has swept into the Imperial Palace and violated the Edict of Nikaea.
As the Thousand Sons Primarch flees back to his seat of power on Prospero, the Space Wolves begin a desperate mission to bring their brothers to heel...."
Episode IV: A NEW HOPE
"It is a period of civil war. Traitor Legions, striking from the shadows, have won their first victory against the Imperium of Man.
During the atrocities of Istvaan III, loyal members of the Traitor Legions managed to smuggle word of Horus's ultimate treachery out of the Istvaan system.
Pursued by Horus's sinister agents, Nathanial Garro races to Terra aboard his starship, the Eisenstein, custodian of the stolen plans that can save his people and restore freedom to the galaxy...."
Episode V: THE WORD BEARERS STRIKE BACK
"It is a dark time for the Imperium. Although the Furious Abyss has been destroyed, Traitor Legions have driven the Loyalist forces from their bases and pursued them across the galaxy.
Evading the snares of the Warmaster, a group of Legionaires led by Roboute Guilliman and Sanguinius has established a new Imperium in the remote system of Ultramar.
The evil Primarch, Lorgar Aurelian, obsessed with destroying the Ultramarines, has dispatched thousands of Word Bearers and World Eaters into the far reaches of space...."
Episode VI: RETURN OF THE PHOENICIAN
"Perturabo has laid waste to the Imperial Fist planet of Hydra Cordatus in an attempt to humble his brother Rogal Dorn and his Legion.
Little does Perturabo know that Fulgrim of the Emperor's Children has secretly begun planning the creation of an ultimate weapon, the Angel Exterminatus.
When completed, this ultimate weapon will spell certain doom for Perturabo and his Iron Warriors...."
Can't think of a good one for Force Awakens, so I'm going to leave it there. Some of these clearly take place at the same time or even out of order, but so is the novel series. I recommend anyone partaking of these fictional movies start with 4-6 and then go back for 1-3, as is tradition.
-Phobos of the Vlka Fenryka
My biggest comment here is: what does Star Wars bring to the crossover? Clone troopers are pretty much the genericist thing you could use - other than not having a headache all the time (;)), there's nothing to distinguish them from soldiers in 40K. Your description (down to the return to the GFFA) looks like you could substitute 'soldiers from a previously-unconsolidated human world' and not lose anything.
And I guess partly that's because Star Wars tech doesn't offer any advantages over 40K stuff. 40K weapons and defences are just straight-up more powerful. There might be an advantage to be had from the hyperdrive and navicomputers - non-warp-based fast travel could be a good tool - but the rest of it isn't worth much.
Thinking about it, the biggest difference is in outlook. Your clone trooper is going to be a lot more willing to use things that the Inquisition would come down on like a lead battleship - alien tech, psyker/Force powers... they represent a different way of looking at the galaxy, one where 'different' doesn't necessarily mean 'evil' (and that despite the fact that they're literally clones).
(Cloning tech could also be useful, I guess, but it's not like 40K has a shortage of foot soldiers. And they still need training, so there's no real advantage in terms of time.)
Once you cross back over, you run into the opposite problem: 40K tech could win the Galactic Civil War in a day. A single Space Marine could probably take out an AT-AT, and I'm pretty sure 40K spaceships and their guns are Just Bigger. On the other hand, it doesn't sound like they've brought any of that stuff, and the handheld tech is less overpowered.
At which point we flip back into 'so what?'. You visit Mandalore, Yoda, etc etc, but does it serve any purpose other than to look at them and go 'yup, I got to write Yoda'? Again, I feel like the best way to play with it might be to explore the 40K characters' reactions (Yoda is a xeno mutant psyker who hangs out next to a Chaos-afflicted cave, he is literally their worst nightmare made flesh ^^), but you don't mention anything like that?
So yeah... you wanted comments. ^~ 'Grand tour of the [other] universe'-style crossovers can be fun, but for best effect they need to delve into the differences between the two 'verses, and how they affect each other - both the characters and the setting as a whole.
hS
Tau.
Hear me out.
The Tau are, by the standards of the setting, unbelievably small-scale. They don't have that many systems and (because of their inability to travel through the Warp) they can't expand all that fast, and yet they're a major galactic player because of their insanely high-tech troops and units. However, their actual standing army? Pretty damned small. Hence all the drones and stuff.
Cloning tech and Wars-style hyperdrive makes both of those problems go away in a friggin' heartbeat. The Earth Caste already has a boatload of cool stuff, and being able to outfit clones and train them to the same standard as Fire Warriors? That makes them an extremely dangerous prospect. Tau ships and drones are already extremely agile when in realspace, and adding hyperdrives and similar Wars-style engines to them puts them on the level of Eldar ships.
However, what really interests me is how the Jedi would interact with the Ethereal Caste. We know that the Jedi Mind Trick is a thing - perhaps the Ethereals maintain the rigid caste structure of Tau society through latent Force powers? On top of that, actual Jedi philosophy is highly compatible with the Tau'va, and I'm certain that the Jedi exiled to the 40Kverse would consider it a beacon of serenity and peace amidst a nightmarish hellscape.
We also know that Ethereals can duel with their honour blades at such pace that their weapons move faster than the speed of bloody sound, so chuck 'em a lightsabre and crack open the old So Your Padawan Is A Weird Blue Alien holocron. =]
Not Grundleplith's fic, but the weird total-collision timeline we've been hashing out further down the thread.
Star WarHammer: Everyone Has a Headache, in 13 pages (so far!)
I've left the doc open for comments, so you can point at those pieces that I've gotten wrong/implausible (I know it's happened). The next stage is clearly Vader's dealings with the Eldar, and the effect of dozens of star-killing shots on the Eye of Terror; we've seen Tau, Tyranid, and Necron enthusiasts so far, so can anyone step up and speak for Chaos and the Eldar?
hS
It now runs through to Palpatine's escape and Vader's fall. I haven't yet got round to putting in the Black Crusade, but it's coming.
hS
Now that Palpatine has returned to his Galaxy, he sees his Empire is in some degree of disarray. And now the Empire must Strike Back...
Palpatine has now seen the power of the Warp. He is convinced that the Dark Side is stronger, but he needs more power. He has now also seen the "reborn" Vader. Palpatine would almost certainly see Vader's hybridization as a betrayal. So he will need to deal with his former apprentice, and he will need a new one. After all there must always be two. One to hold power, and one to seek it.
He could seek out a Force Sensitive child and train it, but this is in the middle of a war. No, it is more likely he needs someone with training. But first...He needs to see to his Empire.
With the Republic on Couruscant he needs a new seat. Given that he sees a need for stronger access to the Dark Side, he decides that the training ground for his acolytes will work. He arrives on Dromund Kaas, and takes up residence there, and operates out of the Dark Temple.
The war has not been going as expected. A change is needed. Palpatine calls the Seventh Fleet, now under the Command of Admiral Karyn Faro (as we are assuming Thrawn does not survive Rebels) While she is no Thrawn, she still served under him and was his second in command. The Empire could use that insight now. She is promoted to Grand Admiral to help create a more unified offense. Let us assume she takes her fleet and flanks the Imperium Forces fighting the Chiss.
Palpatine still needs a new apprentice. He does not have the time, at the moment, to train one from Birth. And unfortunately most of the strong Jedi are too far from his influence and too close to Yoda's to be turned. But there are other choices. He could attempt to train one of his Royal Guards. But that would be bad form. His Inquisitors have proven far to weak to be worth the effort. But one of his assassins, his hand Mara Jade, she has the limited training he provided for her, and she is strong. But first she needs to be tested to see if she is strong enough. He assigns her a series of tasks.
First the Empire needs a new weapon, and there have been some promising results from a secret installation. He dispatches her to the Maw Installation. Her task is to acquire a new weapon without the defenses finding out. After a time she returns with the designs for the TIE Phantom. A shielded, hyperdrive enabled, cloaked TIE Fighter. Palpatine contacts Admiral Daala in the Maw, berates her for failing to protect the plans, but then orders the Phantom put into production.
The Empire still needs more. So Mara Jade is tasked with recovering and deploying Project Blackwing from Dandoran. Project Blackwing is a weaponized Zombie Plague made canon as of Star Wars: Commander. After the plague has been recovered, Palpatine orders one of the new Phantoms to ensure it is delivered to the so-called Terra. Hoping the Imperium is forced to further split its forces.
With Palpatine now believing the Imperium threat will be resolved he turns to the threat of Vader and Chaos. While he gathers his strength on Dromand Kaas, he tasks Mara Jade with seeking out sources of Dark Side Power. Her task first brings her to Korriban, now currently at war with itself with the Rak-anids and Tyranids killing each other. She encounters the Spirit of the Long-Dead Naga Sadow which attempts to possess her. Her connection with Palpatine, and her own strengths prevent him from taking over her, and she recovers an ancient Star Map. She informs the Emperor and he tasks her with following it. She has quickly established herself as a viable candidate for training. Palpatine makes up his mind. Once she finishes this task, he will train her fully in the Dark Side.
She follows the Star Maps finding maps on Dantooine, Manaan, and Kashyyyk. After recovering them all it points to a planet in the Unknown Regions. She arrives at the Observatory on Jakuu to gain navigational assistance through the Unknown Regions, where she finds the Observatory destroyed. She is about to seek out the Ascendancy Fleet, when deep in the back of her mind she hears a call.
Use the Force
Darth Mara is an amazing concept, but I think virtually everything in this is Legends. Plus, of course, Dromund Kaas is in Imperium space these days, so it would be a sucky capital.
I think 'Sheev Palpatine Presents: The Apprentice' is a good concept. Going on his previous form, he'd probably send a few candidates out together (to compete with each other); he pulled this on Vader in the recent comics, and Vader was... peeved.
I think Mara (I'm gonna let her exist, because she's kind of wonderful) would make a good showing, so we can keep that part. And I like (... wrong word?) the use of Project Blackwing. Haha, zombies are Star Wars canon...
So. The candidates are ordered to acquire both Blackwing and a viable deployment mechanism. No rules other than that. Dandoran is in Hutt Space, so it's currently being attacked by Tyranids - which brings the Sith wannabes into conflict with our Sith Tyranids, whatever form they take.
Mara gets Blackwing, along with some Sith goodies to make her stronger. She takes the cloaked ship approach to deployment (she's a spy, after all), which... doesn't seem likely to succeed. I'm guessing Imperium psykers would sense it coming.
Which gets Mara in disgrace. She has to do something to prove herself worthy - though probably not 'playing KoToR'! The obvious choice would be killing Vader, but she's gonna need a plan for that one. If only she knew something he didn't... something like... the identity of his children?
... I think I've just gotten Mara Jade to infiltrate the Alliance.
hS
Is better than Rakghouls anyways. And Mara infiltrating Tau-Republic Alliance is definitely within her skill set. And there is a non-zero chance she becomes the mask.
Also glad Mara is being let in. She's probably my favorite pure legends character
Hutt Space is the optimum target for the Imperium's Tyranid redirect, and it includes Dandoran, which is great for bringing Mara to them - but there are absolutely no Sith worlds in that area of the galaxy. Nothing! Loads of stuff across galactic north (currently held by the Imperium), a bunch of stuff in the far south (including Mustafar), but nothing in the east. The best I could do would be to let them get all the way to Onderon - clear through to the Inner Rim!
So either we have to invent a Sith world with a tomb powerful enough to corrupt the 'Nids out of whole cloth... or put Darth Devourer on the backburner for now. I'm sure they'll get there one way or another.
hS
Sith corrupted Tyranids was your idea. Though relying to powerful Sith tombs...Freedon Nadd's tomb is located on Onderon's moon Dxun.
I personally don't like the idea of Sith Corrupted Tyranids. I only brought up ancient Sith as a way to have Palpatine lose to Warp without the Warp is greater than Force.
And I was saying i like Project Blackwing (zombies) more than Rakghouls. And it uses something that is canon. Could switch to use Project Blackwing on the Tyranids.
I was trying to tie it all together in one place, rather than spicing two or three chunks of the thread with it.
That said, I think nobody except me is all that fond of Darth 'Nids, so perhaps they should just go away. Tyranids are terrifying enough by themselves.
hS
There is one faction from the GFFA that has been silent. Given the projected track of the Imperium of Man's forces, before too long they will be pushing into the Unknown Regions, which means they will be encroaching on the Chiss Ascendancy. The second the Imperium shows any kind of hostile intent in Chiss Territory, the Chiss enter the war.
The Chiss intervention is going to change everything. One of the things they are known for is reverse engineering technology and then making it better, i.e., the Clawcraft or the Charric. The Chiss would bring a whole new set of technology and command ability.
The Chiss might even get involved sooner, as I believe in current canon they are in a partial alliance with the Empire, and even if they do not intervene at first as the Imperium marches through the GFFA the Chiss will eventually see them as an existential threat.
Not to mention there is still the matter of Thrawn himself. He will not be idle in this period. If he does not return to Chiss Space with the Seventh Fleet to shore up the Ascendancy or seek aid for the Empire, he is probably going after supply lines of the Imperium.
I think you're right that the Imperium would probably have hit the Chiss before now - they're not prone to just charging straight ahead, so their forces are probably looping around the north side of the Core. The Unknown Regions mean nothing to them, so they would have hit the Chiss... well, heck, let's say right about the ten year mark.
I think we can take it for granted that the Chiss have been watching the war (as they watch everything else), so the Chiss Expansionary Defence Fleet has been upgraded with every form of technology they can pull together. They may be a tiny empire (the Legends Ascendency only has 29 populated systems - I'm pretty sure that's smaller than the Tau!), but their technology is a hybrid second to none. They cut the Imperium fleet that attacks them to shreds.
Do they then get involved in the larger war? Mm... given their obsession with ending threats, and the sheer scale of the Imperium's invasion - plus their semi-alliance with the Empire - probably yes. They sweep out across the Galactic North, driving the Imperium before them.
But they're cut off from the remnants of the Empire, which are down south. And the Republic isn't terribly fond of Thrawn's people.
(Speaking of Thrawn... it's entirely possible he'll end this season of Rebels dead. So it's probably best to keep him out of things.)
So now the Republic has a triple threat to face: the Imperium's Crusade, the Empire's resistance to takeover, and the Chiss attack. Admittedly the Chiss aren't attacking them, but they figure it's only a matter of time. So who do they turn to? Well, General Han Solo has a couple of ideas...
The Crusade has largely bypassed Hutt Space, but the Hutts are traders and crooks. The Imperium has a lot of technology that they haven't seen before, and they've spent their time scrounging off the battlefields. They're no Chiss, but their various subordinates are skilled in a wide range of sciences. They've been applying what they learn to their own ships.
And, how to put this... Space Marines aren't exactly easy to kill, but it is possible. And it only took one body for the Hutts to undertake a thorough investigation. The biotech in a Marine is beyond them, of course, but with cybernetics and a bunch of illegal medical technology, they can make a decent facsimile. It's taken them a few years, but the first Hutt Marines are ready - and available to the highest bidder. Who just so happens to be Han Solo, official emmisary of the New Republic (who trades them a whole bunch of Tau technology that they've never seen before).
The first appearance of Republic Space Marines on the battlefield is a massive blow to the Imperium's morale. They're either facing someone who can create fake Astartes, or they've been fighting Chaos all along without knowing it. Either way, it shakes them to the core - and those blue-skinned maniacs cutting away at the northern flank aren't exactly helping matters! They call for yet more reinforcements, weakening the fleets in certain other key sectors back home...
How'd I do? ^_^
hS
One thing though, the Chiss probably would have sent an Agent to Jakku to disable the Observatory to prevent anyone from easily finding a route through the Unknown Regions.
The New Republic after there problems might remember how Thrawn was beating them badly in years past, and might actually try to ask for his aid/Chiss Aid.
Alternatively in desperation and in need of troops, they seek to reactivate the Separatist Droid Army. You also have the Concord Dawn Protectors and Remaining Mandalorians out in play as well.
I think there is at least some potential in the comparation of Ways and the Force-using traditions. Dark Eldars could also try to see if this cloning tech is better than the one they use to create the bulk of their Warrior (up to the point of 'Trueborn' Dark Eldars being their own units, elite ones). ithout talking about the Dark Side, the fact their souls aare slowly munched by Slaanesh unless they feed off pain and similar emotions...
And there are the stone souls, Ynnead...
"I have followed the myriad potential futures of the Tau with great interest. Though barely even striplings compared to us, I feel a strange protectiveness towards them. In time I believe they will exceed even our greatest feats and master the darkness within their souls."
-- Eldrad Ulthran, Farseer of Ulthwé Craftworld
With the addition of hyperdrive technology and cloning tech, as well as the ultra-mobile XV97-0s, I rather feel that the opinions of the above Farseer are going to be spreading, at least throughout Ulthwé. Not only that, but Ulthwé is on the borders of the Eye of Terror, and with Palpy's new toy chucking the energy output of whole stars around the place I can see Ulthran leading a small mission through the Webway as a decapitation strike later on, perhaps seeing the fall of the Suam'kha and aiding (subtlely) in the escape of the remains of the Alliance fleet.
Webway portals are straight-up better than hyperdrive, but the hyperdrive itself is a marvel of engineering, and I think that the Eldar would at least respect it from a "oh, that's neat" standpoint. It's also a lot more complete than the Webway, which was burnt out in large part during the Fall, and that has its advantages as well. In Ulthwé in particular, I can see a closer relationship with the Tau-Rebel Alliance forming over the years; at first somewhat faddish, akin to Orientalism in our world, but slowly growing more respectful - especially since the Tau pay them respect in turn. The Greater Good and the Path system are not as incompatible as they first seem, though the Tau are bemused at the Path's focus on individual desires while the Eldar are pointedly sarcastic about the Tau'va's rigidity and social micromanagement.
You bring up the Ynnari and soulstones, and I think that the Tau reaction would be absolutely hagiographic. Think about it: even in death, these Eldar can become integral parts of their race's future, preserving and protecting long after their mortal flesh has turned to dust. If that isn't catnip to people who believe in the Greater Good, I don't know what is.
Finally, the Force is powerful, and unknown to the Eldar; this probably confuses them as much as it intrigues them. Was it some lost creation of the Old Ones, a bioweapon (hi midichlorians!) tested and abandoned, as the Orks were? Or is there something more at work, some strange tide within the universe created by life... all life.
Perhaps Isha's ghost walks among the Rebels...
The notion of someone seeing the Jedi as religious figures - as something close to Avatars of Isha (though, uh, Isha isn't dead? I guess they probably don't chat to Nurgle that often, so might not know that) - is extremely compelling.
Unfortunately I don't think a Webway visit to the GFFA is on the cards - the Webway is constructed, right? No-one's been building corridors in the Star Wars galaxy. But a Farseer could definitely foresee the fall of the Hail of Flames ('cloned humans corrupted by Chaos' doesn't exactly take a genius to see coming), and Ulthwé Craftworld would have witnessed the entry of the Fist of Palpatine into the Eye of Terror as confirmation. That - along with Vader's rather intimidating presence in Eldar circles - could prompt them to open contact with the Tau-Republic Alliance still in the Milky Way.
I don't imagine they'd straight up tell them their clones might turn evil at any moment - I never got the impression the Eldar share information that way - but they would definitely start preparing for the possibility. They wouldn't be members of the Alliance, but they'd definitely be looking out for each other. And, as you say, the Jedi... well, it sends shivers down your spine, dun't it?
Hmm... all of which puts paid to Vader's attempt to enlist Eldar aid, and it seems the Dark Eldar have an utter fear of Slaanesh that means they won't go mucking about in the Eye of Terror, either. Who is a lonely Sith Lord to turn to? Not the Necron - he's not a huge fan of droid solders. But maybe if there was a primitive race out there who might be vulnerable to Force suggestion, impressed by Imperial ships and weapons, and stupid enough to launch an all-out attack on the home of Chaos...?
I think I just argued my way around to a Waaagh! On Chaos.
hS
Isha's still alive. She's trapped in Nurgle's garden, being used as a test subject for Nurgle's diseases. She's also the reason cures exist, as she whispers them to mortal minds while Nurgle does his thing. He knows she's thwarting him, but he loves her so he doesn't care.
Orks are slightly psychic; they basically reshape reality around them to match what they think should happen. Ork tech is a jumbled, utterly garbled mess that only works because Mekboyz think that's how things work; anyone else attempting to analyze it has the feeling it's like trying to reverse-engineer a bike engine powered by, and I quote, glurble wurble flurble durble oh no I've gone cross-eyed. Red-painted vehicles literally go faster than ones that aren't, because red ones go faster. Orks are powered by Clap Your Hands If You Believe.
Give them a purpose, give them a figure to get behind, and give them something to pummel, and an Ork WAAAAAAGH! is pretty much the most dangerous thing in the galaxy. Hurling a really big one - and there's no doubt in my mind that WAAAAAAGH! Vader would be the biggest he could find, his pride demands it - into the Eye of Terror really could do some serious damage.
And Vader runs on his refusal to accept the idea of limits - we've seen this time and time again. Vader is someone who will not give up, whatever happens, because the idea that he could fail (again) is fuel for his rage.
I'm going to assume that the powers of Chaos aren't capable of mass-corrupting an Ork Waaagh!. Since we've got Vader defecting to Khorne in order to free Palpatine (even the Orks wouldn't be able to fight into the realm of the Changer by brute force), the sides flip to Waaagh! versus Daemon Prince Vader and the Corrupted Inquisition. Oh, and the Imperial blockade of Cadia, because Vader is their commanding officer.
I dunno how that's gonna turn out, but I am pretty sure that once Abaddon the Despoiler has room to breathe (between the Khorne-Slaanesh war and the Waaagh!, it's been a bit cramped in the Eye of late), he's going to take the Fist of Palpatine Chaos out into real-space. The Thirteenth Black Crusade will start with the destruction of Cadia in the fires of its own sun. Very shortly afterwards, starcracker beams will rain down on Holy Terra itself. Not even the most powerful void shield in existence is going to hold up to that for long.
Obviously the final death of the God-Emperor of Mankind and the consequent failure of the Astronomican is going to have a devastating effect on the Imperium. One positive effect is that every surviving loyal Primarch is going to have to come back out of the woodwork. At minimum that means the resurrection of Guilliman (hey, the Alliance+Eldar will be happy to help with that, if it means stopping Vader+Abaddon - and it looks like it was Eldar tech that made the difference) and the return of the Lion. It looks like at least four of the others (Russ, Khan, Vulkan, Corax) are not confirmed dead, so y'know, party time.
What we've got on our hands here - assuming I haven't made any particularly egregious leaps in logic that invalidate chunks of the timeline - is all-out war. Here's how the sides seem to shake out.
The Alliance
Fighting for 'good', the Alliance is the only side particularly concerned with, y'know, people.
-The New Republic
--Including Hutt Marines
-The Tau
--Including half of the Hail of Flames, which has not yet been turned
-The Eldar
The United Empire
The forces of Order, seeking to secure power at any cost.
-The Imperial Remnant, under Tzeentch-boosted Palpatine.
-The Chiss Ascendency
-The Imperium of Man
--Palpatine successfully persuades the Primarchs that allying against Chaos is the best course. Also he can offer them hyperspace tech, which is essential for them to be able to move around.
The Black Host
Chaos, doin' what Chaos does.
-Abaddon the Despoiler
--With his armies, including the Fist of Chaos
-Daemon Prince Vader
--With the Imperial blockade fleet from Cadia, now corrupted.
-The Corrupted Inquisitors
Everyone Else
Would like to take over the galaxy, but figure it's probably a bad time.
-The Tyranids (swarming over the Tau).
-The Necrons (opportunists all).
-The Dark Eldar (hanging out in Commorragh and hoping it all goes away).
-The Orks (still fighting in the Eye of Terror, and having a great time).
How'm I doing?
hS
The Ork Big Boss of that one considered Demons as the best enemies ever. After much rampage, his Waagh ended when he invaded a Demon World of Khorne, and succombed to the numbers... Except on this particular world, they resurrect every day after being killed, so basically Ork Walhalla (and since Orks get bigger as they fight more, they could potentially 'win' someday, and nobody will be ever to defeat that Waagh).
So yeah, Vader's Orks are going to repeat that effort, only bigger. I don't think Vader's /plan/ was to use them to get Khorne's attention, but he'll settle for it.
hS
First, Khorne's first gift to Vader would be the scariest one. He'd free him from the suit. Imagine Darth Vader, restored. Hi limbs flesh and blood again. His body no longer ravaged by Mustafar. That's who would be leading the crusade.
However, the idea of Abaddon using the Fist of Chaos to destroy Terra doesn't add up. For one, he needs the Astronomicon too. For another, he wants to watch the palace fall and to kill the Emperor himself. Abaddon is a man who has remained mortal for ten thousand years because he wants to destroy humanity as a human. He's not gonna fight from half way across the galaxy if he has even the slightest chance of doing it personally.
He's actually not likely to use the Fist for much of anything. Abaddon is champion of Chaos Undivided. This cowardly weapon would cause him to rapidly lose favor with Khorne, a dangerous position to be in with so many upstarts. Huron, for example, wants to become warmaster. And now there is also Vader to consider. Abaddon would save the Fist, not spam it.
Okay, so Abaddon still wants to keep hold of the Fist (of Palpatine, if he's not renaming it for use), simply to avoid Vader getting it. Because Vader might /well/ use it, and Abaddon fears (well, you know what I mean) that he might be usurped.
He does use hyperdrive tech, though - maybe not for travel (disrespecting the Warp) but for surprise attacks. Cadia is definitely going down.
Vader is terrifying. Anakin Skywalker at his peak, dual-wielding a lightsaber and a Chaos blade. And obviously also corrupted in body, but lightning-fast with a hammer-blow.
This does mean the Imperium is unlikely to join Palpatine's effort. Given their showing in the canon 13th, maybe they're using some of the unaligned xenos to resist Chaos and the Empire. Hmm... I assume it's not possible for them to divert a Tyranid Hive Fleet to the GFFA?
hS
That is an Imperium Specialty by this point. More than a few Inquisitors have done so in the past.
An Inquisitor managed to divert a Tyranid Hive Fleet in the direction of a Waagh. Sure, the two are still fighting it, but the act the fight attracted allways more Orks and Tyranids from outsde, killing their way to the planet, and knowing that Orks get stronger through conflict, and Tyranids too, the winner...
Let's say the Inquisitor who had this wonderful idea got his thank you card from the Officio Assassinorum, and everyone agree that was a stupid idea.
Inquisitor Kryptman was declared Excommunicate Traitoris, yes, but he was never killed. The general consensus was that he was right because it bought the Imperium time it didn't otherwise have to prepare. And he was declared Traitoris in response to his burning of dozens of Imperial worlds that were being fed on by Tyranid fleets, not the redirection.
Well, I'll start with the star killing shots. Palpatine really screwed up. The Warp wouldn't care in the slightest about the blasts. The daemonworlds inside the Eye would be practically immune to the effects. Worse, Palpatine violated a long-standing Imperium rule: No Exterminatus on Daemonworlds. There is a simple reason for this rule. For one, it rarely works.
For another, it tends to give them ideas.
I can't say too much regarding the Eldar. While I do know a lot about them, it's nowhere near as much as I know about the Imperium or Tyranids. Or Chaos, for that matter, since I do know plenty about them.
I mean, I don't mind in the least that Palpy messed up - he is the villain, after all - but what's the data behind 'pumping the entire energy of a star into a daemonworld will have no effect'?
As for giving them ideas: they have the Fist, plus the GFFA's preeminent Force user (assuming they can twist him, which... isn't necessarily a given, and probably depends on Plot). What do you think they'll do next?
hS
Daemonworlds are ruled by whatever warp entity present happens to be strongest. This entity has the power to rewrite reality according to their whims. If one were to decide that it didn't particularly care to be vaporized by the attack, then the attack wouldn't work. The laws of physics would actually rearrange themselves to suit the Daemon's will. It's entirely possible that the planet's ruler would simply absorb the energy to strengthen itself. And worse comes to worse, Slaanesh might act personally, given Palps is attacking his..her...its...domain.
As for what they'll do next...Abaddon might try to break him, and certainly has the means to make a good attempt at it. Given Palpatine's nature, I could actually see him trying to make an escape and winding up in the realm of one of the Chaos gods. Probably Tzeeench, seeing as his scheming would appeal to the god of plots.
The most terrifying possibility would be that Palpatine's sanity would be taken by the god of sorcery, in exchange for more power. He could then be unleashed back onto the galaxy as a puppet of the Choas Gods.
As for Chaos in general, the Traitor Legions would love to have a vulnerable galaxy to pillage, and would probably set out on unholy crusades, destabilizing, burning, infecting, or debauching their way across the Empire.
I think it's not unreasonable to say that the first few bolts striking from a direction they had no idea even existed would be devastating. A few worlds get blasted out of existence without their rulers having time to react. Then they get wise, and start claiming the energy. It's all swings and roundabouts.
So whose domain is affected here? I know Slaanesh caused the Eye's creation - would it be reasonable to assume that its creatures would be initially weakened, then strengthened by the attack? I get the feeling that upsetting the balance of power in the Warp probably comes under the heading of a Bad Thing...
So, assuming Slaanesh was temporarily weakened, it looks like Khorne would probably go on the 'offensive'. I'm guessing that would both be a spiritual matter (in that Khorne's influence would convert some segments of the Warp proper that had previously been Slaanesh's) and also a martial one (ie, the various creatures under Khorne would attack Slaanesh's for a bit). And then that dynamic flips as Slaanesh's minions start to drink starcracker bolts. Which leaves Khorne feeling rather miffed (though presumably pleased at the slaughter, because Khorne).
I like the notion of Palpatine 'escaping' into Tzeentch's realm, but I think the Changer of Ways might have more on his hands than he bargained for. Assuming we can place the Warp and the Force on roughly equal pedestals, Palpatine is the number one Force user in the galaxy (second only to the Three who dwell on Mortis, the embodiments of the Light, Dark, and Balance, who might be dead anyway). Drawing from the Legends canon for a minute, his powers include mind-controlling the entire Imperial Navy, creating a Force Storm powerful enough to wreck a planet and open a direct hyperspace wormhole, and returning from the dead into his own clones.
The description of the Crystal Labyrinth on Lexicanum includes phrases like this:
Its glittering corridors reflect not only light but also hope, misery, dreams and nightmares. The labyrinth does not merely reflect but also distorts, pulling apart hope and purpose turning them into insanity and despair.
Hope? Misery? Dreams? Nightmares? Palpatine has none of these. Purpose he has in spades, and that purpose is, first, to claim absolute power, and second, to impose absolute order.
Palpatine will not surrender his sanity nor his purpose. He is the writer of his own destiny, and no-one - not the Jedi, not the Republic, not the Gods of Chaos or the Force itself - is going to take that from him.
... I mean, obviously Tzeentch could still kill him. But it seems out-of-character for an entity steeped in cunning and conspiracy to just straight-up kill someone who's proving difficult to control. I imagine the best path to try and claim Palpatine is to let him think he's stealing from you - slip him little bits of power, so that he will (hopefully) become hungry for more.
Which, if Vader's rescue mission succeeds, could backfire tremendously, unleashing a Warp-bearing but 'uncorrupted' (ie, not more than he already was by the Dark Side) Palpatine on the combined galaxies.
Speaking of Vader... there's someone who could be corrupted, but not by Tzeentch. If Palpatine is driven by his purpose, Vader is entirely propelled by anger. Would Khorne accept Vader's fealty and grant him power to steal Palpatine out from under Tzeentch's nose? That sounds like a win/win scenario for the Blood God, who needs a boost against Slaanesh anyway.
... sweet mercy. How's Luke going to cope with finding out he's got a Daemon Prince for a father now?
hS
Daemonworlds are entirely bound to the whims of the beings that run them, and those beings are practically invincible in their own territory. We'd have to make assumptions to believe that the shots even struck individual worlds, as well. The Eye would have to alter the bolts in any way. It would also have to not displace them chronologically. And, Slaanesh would have to not just take their power to protect his/her realm.
Assuming all of these don't happen, the nature of the warp would mean that the bolts would destroy worlds if the daemons don't care. If they do, they could rebuild them. But actually killing anyone? Probably not. The daemons would reform almost immediately, and the realms of Chaos are heavily resistant to this kind of attack. At worst, Slaanesh could restore all of it with a thought.
And, on another note, this also requires the Eldar to not interfere. Something I'd forgotten is that the worlds in the Eye of Terror were Eldar worlds. Many Eldar are trapped there, bound to Slaanesh. Those worlds are also the source of Isha's Tears. The Soul Stones. If there was really a chance that they could be destroyed, the Eldar would interfere to save their race.
As for good old Palps, he might escape Tzeench's lair with his mind intact, but the taint of Chaos would be so infused with him that he would not escape human. Tzeench would give him...gifts. His body would be warped by the exposure to the raw power of chaos, and his mind likely would be altered as well.
Do not forget that everything is according to Tzeench's plan.
It should also be noted that if he was brought to the Eye of Terror, he was brought to the realm of Slaanesh. That is a chaos god he couldn't contend with, as he is definitely vulnerable to Slaanesh's influence. Greed, Gluttony, Pride, Carnality, Absolute Power over others, and perfection. If he allows even the slightest bit of any of these to affect him in Slaanesh's realm, he'd be trapped there forever. And if he saw Slaanesh himself, his soul is gone. Nobody can look upon Slaanesh and keep their soul.
The thing is, we're looking at the interaction between two completely incompatible systems. Assuming Palpatine did his job right, the Fist's shots probably materialise in the planet they target (or rather, inside the first planet they reach - obviously there's no targetting). They don't travel through normal space or the Warp to get there, so they're not actually passing through the Eye.
So can a daemon resurrect itself if it is immolated in an instant without any warning? Accepting that Slaanesh can pretty much do anything, we need to remember that it's a God of Chaos - it may not want to, for its own entertainment. (Plus, people who let themselves get blasted out of existence don't really deserve to be restored, amirite?)
I'm delighted by the idea of the Eldar interfering - it gives them another reason to get on-board with the Alliance. It all ties together...
So, Palpatine. Let's assume that his capture was organised by one of the Traitor Legions (I still think Alpha, but it could be one of the others). That puts him outside the direct influence of Slaanesh - insofar as anyone can be in the Eye. Given that the Force and the Warp have (obviously!) no canonical interactions, I think saying that he can resist indirect/environmental influence is fair.
So he escapes, and ends up in Tz's realm. And then... well, if everything is according to the Changer's plan, then what is his plan? I'd think 'to sow chaos across a second galaxy by letting Palpatine escape thinking he's unchanged' might rank quite highly...
Ultimately, barring divine-level intervention, this scenario will end with something the Gods of Chaos can live with. None of them will die, and the Eye of Terror will continue to blaze. But everything else is in the minds of insane gods, whose plans cannot be understood. They - and Tz in particular - could do pretty much anything that the plot requires, and it wouldn't be OOC.
(Though I admit it would be insanely satisfying to drop something like Abeloth on them, and see how they deal with an actual divine-level threat this time around.)
hS
Slaanesh would act to restore it because the destruction is a blight on his realm. The god of Perfection wouldn't want that kind of blemish. Also, the Slaaneshi legions would be the ones most likely to capture Palpatine in this case, because they'd be gunning for him in revenge. He dared to attack their realm.
Tzeench has more careful plans than just sow chaos. I wouldn't be surprised if he planted some kind of ward in Palpatine's mind so that he could be brought to heel the instant he does something that Tzeench doesn't like.
From Lexicanum:
Waaagh! Tuska
Lead by the infamous Tuska the Daemon-Killa, this Waaagh! devastated the world of Prosan in the Cadian System, breached the Cadian Gate and disappeared into the Eye of Terror. It left numerous Daemon Worlds in the Eye in ruins and eventually was locked in the eternal battle with the daemonic forces of the Blood Prince.
Emphasis mine. Has the power-level of the daemons and Slaanesh increased since the 4th edition, or is there some other explanation for why Orks can leave daemonworlds 'in ruins' but Palpatine can't?
hS
Looking at the Kaldor Draigo story shows the answer. It's the effect of Psykers on the Warp around them. The Orks, as a race of passive psykers, influence the world around them. It's why their machines work, why the 'Red onez go fasta', and why a purple ork army is actually stealthy. The Warp is shaped by belief, and the more powerful or large the collection of believers, the more it is influenced.
When an army of passive psykers charge into the warp to unleash destruction, destruction is unleashed. Palpatine is not in the warp, he isn't a powerful psyker, and his beliefs have zero influence on the daemonworlds.
And, to go back to the Draigo story, Draigo was a Grey Knight who rampaged around the warp. His faith and power were sufficient to protect him and carve a trail of destruction, but as soon as he left, the warp returned to the way it had been. Every victory he won, every daemon slain and every world broken, was fixed once he left. Even if Palpatine could wreck the daemonworlds, they'd correct themselves in moments because he has no influence to keep them broken.
I can accept that.
I think what we have, then, is a Slaanesh effort to launch a direct attack, which is undercut by the trickery leading to the fall of the Hail of Flames. Which... well, Khorne's distracted by Slaanesh's gain in energy, so Tzeentch is probably behind that. So PPalpatine's 'escape' is actually just him being allowed to reach the Maze.
I think we can't have Palpatine being utterly taken over - that would be a flat statement that Warp trumps Force. I think the best option would be a Saruman scenario, where he /thinks/ his plan is his own doing, despite his goals actually being warped by Tz.
Palpatine's goal is to break the Alliance, because that's what Tz wants to do: to stop the infuriatingly uncorruptable Tau from getting too big for their boots, while simultaneously letting them deal with the equally irritationg Tyranids. Once Palpatine has managed that... well, Tz has plans for then, too.
(Though Palpatine may prove more resistant to those backup plans than Tz expects. He has no knowledge of the Force, after all...)
hS
You could have Palpatine be utterly taken over without the Warp trumping Force. We just need to establish a stronger Force Wielder. Now from main stream film canon, we are kind of out of luck, Yoda is the only one that comes close and that is up for debate. but if we dip into legends?
You've already mentioned Battle Meditation, what if there was a way to bring some of the most prolific users of Battle Meditation? Namely Revan. Now I know what you're thinking...that was 4000 years ago. How could he come back? The Light Side sort of canon Revan? Probably impossible without time travel shenanigans. But a Dark Side Revan? That creates a few more options.
Palpatine was able to Force Jump through Bodies. A Dark Side Revan would be more willing to attempt something like that to pass through the ages. But in Legends we also see how Sith Spirits are able to have influence Millennia after their death, see Exar Kun died 3996 BBY. Influenced events until his spirit was finally put to rest 11 ABY. And we also see how even as a spirit Sith can be powerful, and even posses living bodies. See Kallig and Vitaite (AKA Valkorian, AKA Tenebrae, AKA Sith Emperor) who actually managed to kick around for about 2000 years by possessing various bodies.
So we could say that an ancient Sith got disturbed by all the goings on and seeks out a willing host, possibly even a increasingly desperate Luke or Leia?
I imagine it happening something like this:
Flashback to 3956 BBY. Revan stands above their former apprentice Malak, so unworthy to wield the powers of the Star Forge. Once again the entire might of the Sith Empire is at Revan's fingertips. At last the galaxy and be united against the oncoming threat. Only with the power of the Dark Side of the Force do they stand a chance. Revan must go to Korriban to set the plan in motion. Cut to KotOR 2 and TOR happening. Darth Revan is interred on Korriban...
Cut to the start of the Imperium-Empire War. The Imperium rains fire down upon the ruins of Korriban, and something or someone begins to stir. The Spirit of Darth Revan stirs once more. And Revan calls for a willing force sensitive to learn the teachings of Revan. A few weak force sensitives have come, but none had the proper potential. 10 years pass. And with the new Force-Sensitive Tyranids, desperation is rising. A single push could deliver Revan a worthy Apprentice/Host.
Now it could go one of a few ways. Assuming Ezra Bridger survives Rebels, Ezra would be a good host. We know he is strong in the Force, and we have already seen him fall to Maul's teachings. Though all the training and development he did with Kannan would make him less susceptible to a second corruption. The other options are Luke or Leia. Same age as Ezra (technically two days younger) but with two differences. Yes they have been training with Yoda by this point, but they've been on the front lines. And they cannot afford to be training. While they know more and are probably more skilled than Ezra now, they have not had the test of the Dark Side yet. As these new Force Sensitive Tyranids appear, especially if Yoda manages to fall in battle, it the Skywalkers are ripe the fall to the Dark Side.
And if we are assuming a Dark Side Revan for this, that also means the Star Forge is still out there. The promise of the Star Forge for a reeling New Republic is hard to resist.
I was reviewing Vitaite's feats and have come to the conclusion that he would be a better choice than Revan if only because in game canon Vitaite was kicking around for almost 2000 years. It would not be too much to reach to say he found away to exist as a Sith Ghost for another 2000 years until he was freed.
Probably similar to the Revan scenario, he finally sensed the time was ripe for his return and he called out. This time instead of calling someone to Korriban, he called them to Zakuul in the Unknown Regions.
It's right on the path of the Imperium Crusade, so it's easy for everyone to get to. There's easily enough Sith Ghosts on the planet that one can decide to pop out.
But I think you've missed a trick by going for a Skywalker. If it's the Tyranids attracting his (whoever he ends up being) attention, then why not straight-up possess one of them? Not a Norn-Queen herself, but a key Synapse critter would let him steal and control a fair chunk of the Hive Fleet - provided, of course, he can keep from being controlled himself.
As to whose side a Sith Tyranid army would be on, the Ones only know. I'm inclined to say he'd side with Palpatine - not because he particularly likes him (Sith don't make friends easily), but because the Dark Side is likely to go extinct if the Tyranids (who the Imperium have pointed at the Empire) get their way. So it's self-preservation by way of all-consuming bugs.
hS
Tyranids have no souls, or sufficient minds to house a soul. There are no daemon possessed Tyranids, and if one were to attempt it, it would have to do battle with the entire Hive Mind. To put that in perspective: The Chaos Gods are afraid of directly challenging the Hive Mind. And since it's been proven in the lore repeatedly that the only thing that can even momentarily disrupt the Hive Mind are blanks, which have anti-souls, it is likely that the possessing force ghost would be consumed by the Hive Mind's influence.
... Sith Force Ghosts have previously continued to exist by possessing lumps of rock, so that part is irrelevant. 'A mindless, Force-sensitive body' is also precisely what allowed Palpy to become the Emperor Reborn, so the initial injection should work.
Whether he can then successfully separate his new body from the Hive Mind depends on how the Force interacts with that. 40K lore isn't a reliable guide to that question, because - of course - the Force doesn't exist there. It's possible (for instance) to cut a being off from the Force entirely and permanently, so that they can't touch or be touched by it. Would that have the same effect on the Hive Mind, separating the Tyranid from it? Who knows! It's not a process that makes any sense in 40K.
The underlying assumption in this wacky scenario is that things of comparable power can be compared across canons. Star Wars and 40K starships can both make a decent effort at destroying each other. The Force doesn't let you magically overcome the Warp, but equally, Force-sensitives aren't subject to the same limits as psykers.
We've already used the Force to mute the Hive Mind - not by throwing an anti-soul at it, but by (I guess) altering the flow of life and its energies around the 'Nids. So in principle, there is a route our Sith Lord could follow to claim control.
Would it work? Or would he lose the battle and be consumed? That's probably a decision for plot-based thinking.
hS
Sufficiently strong Sith can indeed put their Spirit and Power into completely inanimate objects. That's how the Rakghouls were created. And that allowed him to survive in some form for Eons well into Darth Krayat's Empire (Over 7000 years in some form.)
In-fact...maybe what happens is on Korriban someone discovers Remulus Dreypa's Oubliette, and the Possessed Celeste Morne (host for Sith Lord Karness Muur) Let's say for argument the Tyranids are the ones that break into the Oubliette. Morne is overwhelmed and slain, being in Stasis for 4000 years will probably dull one's combat abilities, then something odd starts to happen. The Tyranids start changing, into vicious mutants. The first Tyranids begin being cut off from the Hive Mind. The Rakghouls have returned to the galaxy. Until the now Rakghoul-Tyranids are able to turn one of the Warp/Force infused Tyranids they remain locked on Korriban.
Everything you just described about them is Legends, not canon. Pulling only from Canon sources, the Muur Talisman was last seen in deep space, in a research station belonging to the Sith empire. It most likely wouldn't be anywhere near Korriban.
I'm happy to crib background stuff from Legends (see my comments on Palpatine's power levels), but major plot points is pushing it.
Also, the Tyranids shouldn't be anywhere near Korriban, come to think of it. If the Imperium has redirected them (how does that work, anyway?), they wouldn't send them right into their own supply lines! The Hive Fleet ought to hit somewhere to Galactic south-east - between Kessel and Kamino, say. Any good Sith worlds down there that we can use to corrupt them?
hS
Tyranids are redirected because they find targets using Genestealer cults. When the Imperium redirected them, they captured a cult and dropped it in Ork space.
H'okay so. Continuing on from the Imperial/Imperium war, the Rebellion wound up right in the line of the Imperium's invasion fleet, and had to flee the GFFA entirely. They ended up in Tau space, and on the basis of 'you don't want to kill everyone and neither do we', they managed to forge an alliance.
The philosophies of the two sides are very close - the Greater Good is a concept the Rebel leadership can get behind, though they don't go so far as to merge the two. Luke Skywalker, looking for guidance after Kenobi's death, winds up playing disciple to the Ethereals. (Amusingly, the Tau decide that the Duros are a lost Tau caste, probably an Air offshoot.)
The two sides trade technology, and within a year the first Tau hyperdrives roll off the lines. Their first mission is a raid on the GFFA, to pick up some of that fabled cloning technology - the Rebels kind of oppose this, but not strongly enough to break the alliance.
A decade passes. The Imperium is still mired halfway to Coruscant. The Bugzapper of Palpatine (or whatever) has commenced interdiction shots on the Eye of Terror, and is roving the GFFA's Outer Rim eating suns to power itself. And suddenly, all across Ultima Segmentum, ultra-high-tech Tau ships carrying boatloads of first-generation clone troopers drop out of hyperspace. The Fifth Sphere of Expansion is underway at last.
(Meanwhile, a crack Rebel team, armed with Tau tech and including all our favourite characters, returns to the GFFA, aiming to take down the Bugzapper and stop it, y'know, destroying stars...)
hS, havin' fun
I mean, for one thing, Han's gonna love having a supply of photon grenades. Since it's basically a monumentally bad trip in a can, it's good for both Stormtroopers and Sith alike - I'd wager it'd be preeeeetty hard to maintain your concentration on the Force when you've had a Rainbow Psychoactive Rock Concert Flashbang go off in your face. We've also got to remember that Tau pulse pistols are like blaster pistols but, y'know, good, so he's obviously a fan of that. Now, Iunno if you'd get Chewie to part with his bowcaster, but the image of him hauling a cyclic ion blaster or a burst cannon around is kind of awesome. And Leia? Well, we know she's a pretty good shot, so just go all the way with it and give her a rail rifle.
What's also helpful is the fact that rather than durasteel or whatever, Tau armour (and by extension the armour of their Rebel allies) is made of a nanocrystalline substance called fio'tak, out of which pretty much everything is built these days. It's dense, it's durable, and it's incredibly light - and it means that the Rebel forces as well as Tau clone troopers can shrug off blaster fire and even lightsabres as if they were clad head to foot in beskar. In addition to that, we know that the Tau Water Caste are translators and diplomats par excellence, and we also know that the Vespid communication helms are a thing, so I can definitely see Chewbacca and other Wookiee getting something similar to better communicate and co-ordinate with the Fire Caste in the field.
However, one of the most devious and generally nastiest things lurking in the Tau arsenal is drones. They use the whole "combined arms" thing to have a shedload of small orbiting robots - analogous to a starfighter's pilot-assistance astromech droid - to grant bonuses to fire teams in the field. These can be big ol' shield projectors, or they can be rail rifle fire support... or they can have a markerlight. These basically provide massively augmented targeting data for units, and makes them terrifyingly accurate in the field.
In short, Tau clone troopers can shoot straight.
Be afraid. =]
Taubacca and Tau Clone Trooper.
I'm assuming that at least the first generation of clones are human, and are in fact using the Fett template. Whether that's because the technology isn't easy to adapt to Tau, or because the Tau aren't too happy about cloning themselves, I couldn't say.
hS
By way of recompense, have some (slightly butchered) Tau terms for GFFA-specific terms:
Aun'aku'ni: The Force (lit.: "Ethereal life force sensation/feeling"). This goes off the earlier idea that Ethereals might be latent Force-users, with all that that implies. Perhaps others can be trained to use it... perhaps not. See also Aun'aku'ni'jhi, which refers to the Dark Side; something of which one doubts the Tau would be all that fond, or even tempted by.
Bentu'himoya'la: Jedi (lit.: "Graceful and enlightened protector"). This is a pre-existing term that I feel would definitely be applied to the Jedi, or at least what remains of them. Not for nothing are they called Knights, after all. See also Bentu'himoya'saal and Bentu'himoya'O for padawan and Jedi Master respectively.
Ke'd'havre: Holocron (lit.: "Brilliant (as in luminescent) book of sutras/psalms"). This is another construction - I get the feeling that Jedi teaching holocrons would be viewed in much the same sense as collected sayings and teachings of early Ethereals, of which the D'havre is one of the more famous.
El'er'ex'la: Wookiee (lit.: "Noble person of the fur cloak"). This one, at least, is obvious. =]
Sha'suam'kha'la: Clone trooper (lit.: "Hail of flames warrior"). The lexicon I've been using doesn't have much in the way of grammar, so I rather had to improvise. Besides, there's quite a lot of poesy in the Tau language, so it doesn't not fit. Anyway, the whole "hail of flames" thing is meant to imply a great shower of small flames - emphasizing the sheer scale of a Tau Clone Trooper onslaught as part of a distinct Hunter Cadre, allowing for strategies and engagements on much grander scales than before. The suffix -'la may be replaced with any of the Tau caste ranks to indicate rank ('saal, 'la, 'ui, 'vre, 'el, and 'O in that order).
Ol'nan: Lightsabre (lit.: "Bright sword"). Again, this one's pretty self-explanatory, and personally I like it better than lightsabre. Flows off the tongue a bit more easily, what? =]
No sooner do I post the above than I come across the Tau word for clone (Ron'nim). Sod. Oh well, I like my one better. =]
... that Ron'nim refers to a clone as a being, while Sha'suam'kha'la refers to it as a soldier in the Hail of Flames.
Anyway, for this, you get more art!
1. The collision of two galaxies. The GFFA's rim materialises through the core of the Milky Way. This puts worlds like Mon Calamari, Yavin, Kashyyyk, and Mandalore directly in the path of...
2. ... the Imperium of Man's invasion force. The first system they encounter is the Sith world of Korriban, which convinces them that the GFFA is a hive of Chaos. They drive out the Rebel Alliance without even noticing them, then engage the Imperial Navy at Concord Dawn. Meanwhile...
3. ... the Rebels flee into the new galaxy, and run into the Tau. Mon Mothma forms an alliance, sharing aid and technology.
4. Emperor Palpatine tries a classic decapitation strike. His Death Star (which had just destroyed Alderaan when the galaxies merged) leaps into the Sol system and prepares to fire on Holy Terra. Unfortunately for Palpatine, the Imperium's fleet is just a bit bigger than the Rebel Alliance. Scratch one Death Star.
5. As part of their deal, the Rebels provide the Tau with information on cloning. A hyperdrive-enabled Tau/Rebel raid on Kamino provides them with samples of the tech, and they quickly get to work reverse-engineering it.
6. With the Imperium at a stalemate somewhere around the Hapes cluster, Palpatine turns his attention to something more serious. Reports have reached him of his Inquisitors being corrupted by a new aspect of the Force... something named Chaos.
7. Dagobah is a long way from the front lines, but Imperium ships are notoriously bad at ending up where they need to be. Ben Kenobi appears to Luke Skywalker, instructing him to head to the swamp planet, train there... and bring Yoda away from peril if he can.
(Not shown are the two Tau Ethereals who travelled with him, whose presence convinced Yoda to leave.)
8. The Imperials engage the forces of Chaos. Chaos wins (obviously). Palpatine begins pursuing other avenues of attack.
9. Ten years on, the Hail of Flames is complete. The first Tau clone army marches to war, split - by their alliance with the Rebellion - between their own expansion and the liberation of Imperium-held worlds in the GFFA such as Mon Calamari, Chandrila, and Bothawui.
10. The Imperial Navy bypasses Cadia and blockades the Eye of Terror. Using hit-and-run tactics honed over a decade of combat with the larger ships of Chaos and the Imperium, they maintain the blockade while Palpatine's new superweapon commences firing. Bolts of red flame emerge from hyperspace and plunge into the swirling Eye, each one with enough energy to destroy a star...
hS
Seriously, this is an amazing plot and it works really well and now I want to write it but there is so much other writing to do and also there is so much cool stuff that I know about the Tau but I know substantially less cool stuff about Star Wars and also I might be flailing a bit because this is SO COOL AAAAAAAA-Also the dates you mention mean that this takes the place of the Fourth Sphere Expansion, which is now extremely successful instead of being lost in warp storms. Timelines R Fun! =]
The story of the Tau-augmented Rebellion might be interesting. Their ultimate goal is no longer to bring down the Empire, because that would just let the Imperium take over, but to take control of it through subterfuge and cleverness... I have a feeling this might actually take them into the orbit of the Alpha Legion, who are apparently sneaky Chaos types that don't hang out in the Eye of Terror. Given that neither the Tau nor the Rebels have the knowledge base to immediately recognise a Traitor Legion, they could very well forge an alliance (which is in the interests of Chaos, since the Empire is proving a pain).
Over in the Milky Way, though, we've got 'Tau conquer everything easily' as one plot thread. When your weakness is 'numbers', and that gets negated, things get very boring. On the other hand, it looks like Hive Fleet Kraken arrives on the Tau frontier three years after 'Now', so that could work as a source of conflict.
Meanwhile, the Empire is firing Starkiller+Sun Crusher blasts into the Eye of Terror. What will that do? Options range from 'nothing' to 'destruction of one of more Chaos Gods' (^_~). Whatever happens, it'll provoke a response... but the Bugzapper (or whatever Palpy calls it) is a long way away. Chaos can't get there.
Hmm... except if the Alpha Legion is hanging out with the Rebel-Tau Alliance. The Alliance takes Coruscant with their help, then has to balance fighting off an Imperium assault at Kuat (the Imperial - now Alliance - shipyards) with hunting down Palpatine and the Bugzapper in the Outer Rim. They succeed at both... and then the Alpha Legion betrays them, taking both the Bugzapper and Palpatine directly into the Eye of Terror.
That puts Vader in charge of what's left of the Empire, and he's not one for sitting back when there's vengeance to be had. He's convinced he can resist the corruption of Chaos, so intends to head into their own realm to get his Master out/kill stuff. And he knows that the Eldar Webway can probably be used as back door into the Eye...
... and this is the point at which the Tyranids show up, I guess.
So, running down our list of galactic powers:
-Galactic Empire: dethroned, but still a major force. Fighting against both the Alliance and the Imperium to maintain its holdings, while also attempting to find a way into the Webway.
-Tau-Republic Alliance: expanding rapidly, but in trouble. The Alpha Legion took a chunk of the fleet with them when they betrayed them, so they're strictly weaker than both the Imperium and the Empire in the GFFA. Back in the Milky Way, the Fourth Sphere has just run headlong into the Tyranids, and is seriously numerically overwhelmed. A true merger of the two factions is being mooted.
-Imperium of Man: having a really bad day. They hold a huge slice of the GFFA, but nothing truly critical. Meanwhile, Cadia is still under the guns of the Imperial Navy, and the Fourth Sphere is cutting into their back-lines.
-Powers of Chaos: going well! While they suffered some key losses in the Bugzapper bombardment, they now have the Bugzapper itself, a sizeable hyper-capable fleet (assuming they can persuade the Alphas to hand it over), and a Sith Lord to set about corrupting. Of course, there is the annoying matter of that huge fleet outside the Eye of Terror...
-Tyranids: buzz buzz buzz. Who are these annoying white-armoured people who all look alike?
-Eldar, Dark Eldar: both staying out of things, but now there's a Dark Lord of the Sith and a bunch of Star Destroyers harassing them and asking for the keys. Ugh, the Mon-Keigh never learn, am I right?
Orks: WAAAGH!
hS
(Yeah, I was wrong about it stalling.)
I mean, that's a fantastic plot, and I love it to bits, but it hinges on the Tau not having any knowledge of either the Ruinous Powers or their Astartes legions... and that's simply not true. The fact of it is that Tau souls barely even register as souls to the Chaos Gods. They have no psykers. They have no warp navigators. Even for the rapacious and ever-hungering gods of the Warp, they're just not worth the effort. However, the Tau have run into Chaos Space Marines on a number of occasions; while they might not recognise the Alpha Legion specifically, they know what a CSM looks like - specifically, what he looks like splattered over a wide area by railgun rounds. The big weakness is to psykers, actually - the Tau have basically zero defence against Warp powers, and the Rebels have exactly zero defence against it - and may well end up being turned against their cause by the machinations of Chaos. Hell, we could even have the initial clone troops turn to the Ruinous Powers and make the Alliance fight their own for a change, which sounds p cool, especially when you factor in just how many nasty mutations they could get their hands on. Jet Troopers with actual wings, Blurrg Troopers mounted on Beasts Of Nurgle, and maybe even a Clone Trooper Commander who became a Daemon Prince... cool, right?
Also, since this is set prior to the canonical Fifth Sphere Expansion, the problem isn't that you're going to be fighting Hive Fleet Leviathan. Instead, the Tau got to deal with Hive Fleet Gorgon (a splinter of Hive Fleet Behemoth), whose power I think we can upscale considerably considering their new advantages. Gorgon was canonically a Hive Fleet of exceptional adaptability, perhaps because of the Tau's own ability to adapt their technology to face new threats; Gorgon facing off against the Alliance would probably invest heavily in psyker units like Zoanthropes and stuff that could withstand barrages of pulse fire, like Pyrovores and Carnifexes - stuff that the Alliance has never really had to deal with en masse. Meanwhile, the Rebels look upon the Great Devourer with extremely brown pants; perhaps this pushes them closer to the Tau... or perhaps further away. Time will tell. =]
The Alpha Legion has the distinct advantage (in this instance) of not hanging out in the Eye of Terror, and therefore not really looking like Chaos Space Marines. I mean, Space Marines, absolutely, but if they could swing a 'we're a splinter group which has nothing to do with any of that' style of thing, it could still work.
Actually, it doesn't even need to be that complex: the Alphas have human operatives. Find one in a position to help the Rebel side of the Alliance, and they can work their way through until they get onto the Bugzapper. Though it does leave the Alliance in a better position, since they get to keep their fleet.
The difficulty with the Fallen Clone scenario is that the Alliance isn't really pitching itself against Chaos. I mean, granted that there's Chaos all over the place, but mostly they're going to be fighting the Imperium and the Empire. Unless...
... unless a Chaos faction deliberately sets out to turn them. Perhaps the turning point for the Alliance isn't a betrayal by a third party, but by the fall of the Hail of Flames at precisely the moment things seem to be going well (the capture of the Bugzapper). The Bugzapper is whisked away by the clones, and the Alliance fleet is torn apart by Chaos-infected clones running riot. What's left of it limps back to Coruscant, unable to make the journey all the way to the Fourth Sphere.
That separation leaves a ticking time-bomb in the Tau half of the Alliance: the Fourth Sphere doesn't know that the Hail of Flames is vulnerable to mass corruption. So they're fighting the Imperium and the 'Nids, while we watch and go 'but any moment all these soldiers could turn evil...'.
I think you underestimate the Rebels facing the Tyranids, though: they're quite a brave lot by and large, and in the old EU they faced the Vong (extra-galactic organic ships) and the Killiks (slightly less mindless Tyranids) without descending into absolute panic. Their primary strategies, depending on who exactly is on-site, will be 'look for a Queen to shoot' and 'design a bioweapon'. (The latter comes up a lot in the EUs, though not usually condoned by Our Heroes.)
Of course, the Tyranid Hive Mind doesn't have a Queen, so that won't work. The Force team (Luke, Yoda, Leia, and the Ethereals) might be able to pull off some kind of psychic damping effect, disrupting the Hive Mind locally...? It's worth a shot, at least!
hS
They're called Norn-Queens, but putting a Jedi team up against one is... less than entirely viable. The reason for that is, well, d'you remember that "Who Would Win" battleship competition you did a while back? The one involving The Mighty Thor? Yeah. That again.
Norn-Queens are the single most important aspect of a Tyranid Biofleet. They're the ones who make everything - literally everything - from the tiniest Ripper to the greatest bioship. They're vast organisms on an unbelievable scale... and that's kind of why bioweapons don't tend to work against them. They're so big, and their consciousness and power so decentralized within their bodies, that by the time it's killed off one part, the rest has adapted to the infection and, well, it might start showing up in the Hive Fleet's spore bombs.
However, that idea of "look for a Queen to kill" is perfectly viable when it comes to the Hive Mind - Hive Tyrants and other beings of similar status effectively become relay nodes for the Hive Mind, and bumping them off severs the connection. There was even a special rule about the Tyranids back in the day called "SHOOT THE BIG ONES!". Spelled like that. =]
The Force acting as a counter to the Hive Mind is definitely an interesting idea, and budding Ethereal force users would definitely work well with that... but that involves putting Ethereals in the field. When Ethereals die, Tau... Tau go a bit nuts. There's also the fact that the Tyranids have a very weird effect on the Warp - while the Warp and the Force are two very different things, the effect of a Hive Fleet overrunning a world is like Alderaan on a grand scale.
On the plus side, we can protect everyone involved. One imagines that the power sources for hyperdrive engines are pretty potent, and if they can be scaled down for use in a starfighter then they can be scaled down for use in a battlesuit. This means that we can nab some of the cool stuff from the Fifth Sphere Expansion a little ahead of schedule - I'm especially thinking XV104 Riptides and XV109 Y'vahras, since anti-infantry and anti-horde weapons are prolly gonna be the order of the day when fighting the gribblies. There's also the fact that XV95 Ghostkeels we around by this point, and super-stealthy Class 9 battlesuits are a pretty good trick to have when it comes to infil/exfil and messing up Hive Tyrants.
It should also go without saying that I love the idea of the Hail of Flames getting turned by the Alpha Legion's human operatives infiltrating the Alliance and planting suggestions in the Hail's command echelons. Perhaps this is where the Tau start cloning their own species, at least in smaller batches, the better to guard against corruption and for spreading the joy and light of the Greater Good. =]
While the idea that the Force could counter the Hive Mind is a good one, this underestimates the Tyranids' adaptability, which is their primary trait. For one, they would naturally resist the Force like the Vong did, because they don't understand that it exists. But as the fighting continued, they'd start to understand that a new type of ability was being used. It's at this point where things go bad for the Alliance, because the Tyranids would dedicate everything to feeding on a Jedi. And once they do, that Norn-Queen will start making force-sensitive Tyranids.
The usual risks of the Force would not apply to them. They have no emotions to feed the Dark Side, and their mental strength would allow them to channel those abilities even if they shouldn't be able to. Despite being soulless, they have enough mental power to brute force warp powers, so it is within their power.
I don't think 'don't know about the Force = resist it' is a valid reading of the Vong; they were biologically immune to it, while there's (obviously!) no indication that the Tyranids are. So I think it would make for more interesting fiction to have them initially vulnerable to Jedi Battle Meditation (to steal a phrase)... but then, like you say, to adapt.
In this particular war (starting between the destruction of Alderaan and the destruction of the Death Star), Jedi would be scarce in the Alliance. Luke, Leia, Yoda... it's not like they'd go hunting for more in the midst of the Empire/Imperium war! (Well, maybe they would, at that...) But what they could get their claws on is one of those Chaos-corrupted Inquisitors I mentioned somewhere. So the result is the same.
Would the force-sensitive Tyranids be able to use abilities they hadn't seen? I mean, assume they never saw a Jedi healing trance - would they be able to intuit its existence, or would they have to be informed it was possible first? (The latter opens up interesting possibilities of rationing, but not if it dun't work. ^_^)
hS
Certain Tyranid organisms can draw information out from brains, so it is possible that whichever Jedi got captured would give up all their skills to the Tyranids before it got processed. And at worst, the Tyranids would probably start experimenting with possible uses for the powers.
You'd start seeing Zoanthrope type units that are basically massive Force batteries, and the more powerful units like Tyrants would start displaying force sensitivity in general.
Though, in the particular case of the healing trance, they likely wouldn't care. Most Tyranid organisms are completely expendable, and time in a trance would be time not spent advancing and killing. The Hive Mind wouldn't bother on anything less than Tyrants.
And it's this: what if the core personality of a Tyranid bio-organism was constantly in both a healing trance and/or battle meditation?
My idea is for a kind of Zoanthrope 2.0 - taking some cues from cephalopod physiology, because the Nids are all based off H.R. Giger and he based all his creepy ideas from stuff in the deep and weird parts of the ocean. Rather than the current massively centralized brain seen in the typical Zoanthrope, what we instead get is a lot of "synaptic ganglia", for want of a better term, spread out through the entirety of the organism's body, but primarily in its head and its many, many, many tentacles. These tentacles allow it to conduct both its Warp powers and its Force powers, each operating semi-independently while the prime personality concentrated in the head focuses on the battle meditation or healing trance as needed. Additionally, it would doubtless act as a relay node for the Hive Mind as well, since Zoanthropes already do and this is a Zoanthrope on steroids.
My internal nomenclature for this thing is the Tentathrope, to represent... well, take a wild guess. It's a psychic Tyranid bio-titan with a bucket of Force powers thrown in for good measure. It can blast ground units with the powers of the Warp and probably take out air units and vehicles with supercharged Force lightning.
Be afraid.
Be very afraid.
=]
Namely something from the Legends continuum. Killiks, an insectoid species coming from Alderaan, but the bulk of the species had left the planet long before the fireworks for DS-1's inauguration went off the reservation.
Killiks could, and can submit other sentients to their hive-mind, up to modifying the brains' chemical, creating people called Affiliated, if I remember that term right.
In the New Jedi Order story arc involving them, the idea was that Jedis... were both more (the Force make them more receptive to the changes to Affiliated) and less (if they know about that, they can use the Force to guard against the changes) vulnerable to that.
Of course, for that arc, things went predictably on the 'more' side for a while, given the fact Alderaan had blown up, Jedi had went extinct for a few decades, and even before that there were not so many Killiks lefft on Alderaan... Any possibility of something similar with the Tyranids' Hive Mind?
And while the Eldar got a passing mention earlier... What about the favorite people of idiosyncratic sentient droids of W40k, the Necrons?
Raynar Thul accidentally launched a Killik invasion fleet, because Jedi Joiners exert a very powerful influence on the Killik.
The Necrons... where are they at this point in time? Lexicanum reckons they're just sort of bobbing about helping people out occasionally (including fighting the Tyranids quite a bit).
Actually, they're probably more significant by their shadow: their very existence will give the entire Milky Way a pretty big phobia of droids. (I mean, the Imperium already has one, since 'AI goes bad' is one of their big hereditary fears.) While Artoo can probably get by, I think Threepio is going to be the subject of a lot of hate and fear.
On the other hand, the GFFA has a recent war when they fought armies of droids. Clone troopers were quite literally built for the job. So the Necron may get a nasty surprise if they try to attack the Alliance.
The big problem here is that 40K has a lot of factions, while the GFFA only has two. There's only so thin we can stretch those before the enemies start turning into 'and then we fought some different folks'.
How do the Necron think? Are they going to ally? Take advantage of one of our distractions? Try to claim some key tech for themselves? Or just keep on killing?
(I need to put together a summary of The Story So Far, don't I? Not for any serious purpose, but just for kicks...)
hS
Given that it's very heavily implied that O'Shovah's big shiny Dawn Blade was actually a Necron artifact... and that they've fought Necrons on a few occasions, mostly by accidentally colonising tomb worlds as part of the Third Sphere Expansion. However, Necrons... Necrons aren't robots. They're really more akin to Cybermen than anything else - and not the wimpy ones with an allergic reaction to one of the least reactive metals in the periodic table, either.
However, it massively depends on the individual Phaeron running the show. If you get a diplomat, brilliant. If you get someone who wants to end the curse of biotransference via GFFA cloning tech, even better! If you don't... well then. Time to break out the battlesuits.
The implication is that the Dawn Blade is a Daemonweapon, not a Necron one.
Closest thing that the 'nids have to that is the Genestealers and their cults. Almost the same kind of idea--except then when you reproduce, you have baby 'stealers.
... I think ten years is long enough for the Rebels to convince the Tau of the viability of Ethereal-Jedi commando teams, no? :D It doesn't matter if the other Tau will lose it if you don't bring the army in the first place, and like theit cousins in Trek, the Rebels have no problem putting all their most important people on a ground mission.
I like the idea of cribbing Rebel power sources (though I'm not positive they're actually stronger), but why not take the next step and create jump-capable armour? Tie a combat suit that can survive atmospheric entry to a Clone Wars-era hyperspace ring, and you can jump your team directly from the home fleet to enemy ground. Admittedly they can't get back /out/, but as an infiltration tactic it's superb. And it's not like the Tau mind suicide missions for the Greater Good.
(Of course, that should also be possible in Star Wars proper, but no-one's that desperate I guess.)
hS
But there are records from the Burning Moon War and similar things (which occurred well prior to the setting) of Battlesuit pilots pushing their mechs to the absolute limit and getting them into orbit. If you built them for that purpose, then you'd absolutely be able to have jump-capable battlesuits. The Ghostkeel suit is already designed for stealth missions and rapid insertion - and yeah, it says quite a lot about both Tau adaptive stealth tech and the 40K setting in general that a thirty-foot giant robot armed to the teeth can be considered stealthy - and the central design's been around since the beginning of the Third Sphere Expansion, so giving it some really uprated vectored thrust arrays and a really low-rated hyperdrive (I'm fairly certain that Tau computing tech can handle it, given that it can handle bouncing off the surface of the Warp) so that they can get in, inflict a decapitation strike, and bug out with relative impunity.
I can even think of a proper designation: XV97-0 Knightguide Battlesuit. This name is a shortening of the phrase "Guide of heroes' strength", referring to both the suit's array of drone-controlled weaponry and also to the people commonly piloting it: the word in Tau is Re'b'el. =]
Welcome to Round Two
^_^
hS
Did my invitation get lost somehow? This tournament sounds fun.
Were you worried I'd stomp? Because I'd totally stomp.
... wait, there was an entrant with a time machine? Uh ... disregard this message, please.
[stream ends]
(( - Tomash ))
We know the ending of Round Two was a bit disappointing; rest assured that the Borg will not be invited back. But the Space Battleship Tournament is still here!
From your name, we're guessing you're a Culture ship. Do you have a rundown of your stats and specs that we can look over? It'll help us to actually write you present you accurately to our viewers.
And to any other prospective contestants - come on in! We've already had a message of interest from a Mr. Ronan the Accuser, with a ship named... Dork Easter or something? Transmissions can get a bit glitchy out here, I'm sure we'll get it straightened out.
((But seriously, people, who should come along to Round Three? Given this thread, I think the Tau and the Tyranids should sign up; and of course our apparent champions will be returning. Who else has a Space Battleship?))
((hS))
Perhaps the Imperials could use an upgrade? I propse the Empire brings the this time around?
Specifications:
19,000 meters
5,000+ Turbolasers and Ion Cannons.
Crew Complement approximately 280,000
Or for variety:
Geth Dreadnought
1190 meters
Weapons: Approximately 10.456 Kilotons from the Broadsides, Approximately 93.32 Kilotons from the Main Gun
Complement: As many platforms and fighters as can be built (Can't find anything that gives close to an estimate)
I always enjoy those. Plus, I really loved how much the Doctor was just dicking around with the tournament. =]
And their whole problem about facing extinction... Then I remembered many Dark Eldars soldiers are actually clones or vat-grown, so if Craftworld Eldars are not using that, they wouldn't go for clones either.
Although to see how Force-Users would interact with Eldar and their Ways, or Sith confronted to Dark Eldars make for an interesting idea too.
In many cases, Star Wars actually beats Warhammer technology wise. Especially in space combat. Breaking it up into four categories for space, and four for ground, it doesn't look too favorable for the Imperium of Man.
Shields:
Star Wars ships rely on the ever-popular deflector shields. They simply absorb the impact and prevent the energy or damage from reaching the ship. Against the continuous bombardments that SW ships favor in space combat, this is efficient as it provides protection for as long as your generators can hold out, and will recharge whenever the bombardment stops.
40K, on the other hand, relies on Void Shields. These are hundreds of layers of weak shields that simply transport whatever hits them to the warp. Against the broadsides favored by 40K ships, this is quite effective. The layers of shields will allow them to remove most of the incoming fire from existance. However, the flaw with this method is that any large hit will collapse the layer. Useful in 40K, where most hits qualify as large, but not as much against SW's continuous volleys.
Victory here goes to Star Wars, as their shields would have time to restore between volleys, while 40K shields would crumble under the continuous assault and be overcome quickly.
Size/Armor:
Now, in size, the Warhammer universe wins easily. Star Destroyers are one of the largest Imperial ships, and they only are 1.6 Kilometers long. Warhammer ships tend to average at six, with the capitol ships (the same role the Star Destroyers play) averaging somewhere around ten. This means more gun batteries, and more armor to burn through to reach something valuable.
On the matter of armor, Warhammer wins again. IoM ships are built to withstand massive punishment while their shields are recovering, and their armor is often stronger than their shields. Star Wars ships tend to be doomed if their enemy is still alive after their shields drop, as their armor can be pierced by a single fighter firing blasters, not to mention ship to ship weapons.
Victory to Warhammer.
Maneuvering:
Star Wars has the Hyperdrive. This device allows a ship to accelerate to FTL speeds, during which they are safe from all harm barring miscalculation. They know, often to the hour, when they will arrive, and the only limiting factor is that they have to get out of the way of obstacles, which is a mundane part of a jump.
Warhammer ships, on the other hand, jump through the warp. Not only is your arrival time dictated by the whims of fate, but whether you arrive at all is a gamble. Ships can be lost in the warp very easily. Even those that aren't can arrive at their destination months or years out of place. Ships can even arrive before they leave, or spend a few months traveling only to find that it has been centuries on the outside.
For usefulness and efficiency, Star Wars wins.
Weapons:
Weaponry is a difficult case. Star Wars has an advantage due to the rules of canon, as what is shown in the movies takes presedence over everything else. And the movies don't bother to explain much of anything about how their technology works. Warhammer has the disadvantage that everything is equally canon for it, so the convenient RPGs like Rogue Trader explain quite a bit.
Warhammer weapon ranges are measured in thousands of kilometers, with the longer ranged weapons getting into tens and hundreds of thousands. As for Star Wars, we don't know. There's never really been a mention of getting out of range of turbolasers, so their ranges are hard to confirm outside of estimates that are quickly contradicted. The Space battles in Star Wars take place much closer together than in Warhammer, so it could be assumed that their ranges are shorter, or that the fleets were fighting closer so the audience could tell what's going on.
Firepower is another issue. The Effective Firepower of a turbolaser is never stated, and has been shown to fluxuate wildly depending on how much power is transfered to the battery. They also rarely explain how much of the power the batteries are using, so consistancy is impossible. I personally would assume that Turbolasers are on par with the Macrocannon, the primary Imperial ship-to-ship weapon, as they have been shown to vaporize asteroids. Imperial Lance batteries would be more powerful, as they are designed to burn holes through ships in one shot.
Possible victory to Warhammer, but can't actually say for sure due to vagueness of Star Wars' source material.
Space Summary:
Star Wars ships win in shields and maneuvering, and that's without mentioning that in sublight speeds, Star Wars ships tend to be more maneuverable. The advantage of shields could be negated by Warhammer ships having superior armor, which leaves it a toss up on which has better weaponry. Overall, Victory goes to Star Wars in Space.
Now for Land.
Weapons:
Star Wars is definitely at a disadvantage here. The primary weapon of warhammer, the lasgun, is compared in damage to a 50cal rifle, and goes for the realistic depiction of heat damage. Bolters, the other main weapon, fire 75cal explosive slugs that hit with the force of a small grenade. These two factors mean that any firefight on the ground will end poorly for the Star Wars fighters.
On the Star Wars side, the blasters are weak, inaccurate, and rather useless. Their only advantage is that they don't require reloading. The lightsaber, while effective, cannot deflect the weapons being used against it and the user would be at a disadvantage in a melee, as Imperial weapons are crafted of heat resistant Ceramite, which is designed to resist plasma weapons.
Victory to Warhammer.
Armor:
Guardsmen armor is designed to withstand the damage of a 50cal rifle, though doesn't offer any insulation from the impact. Space Marine armor is made of ceramite, and is described as being able to withstand tank shells. Their armor could also withstand a lightsaber, at least for a limited time.
Stormtrooper armor couldn't protect them from Ewoks.
Warhammer wins on armor.
Units:
Warhammer has diverse military units, both in infantry and vehicles. As an accurate list would take all day to compile and examine, I'm just gonna compare the ones that most effectively compare to the AT-AT, and the AT-ST. The God-machines of the Adeptus Mechanicus: The Titans. Oh, and the Sentinel.
Well, easy one out of the way first. The Sentinel is a fast moving, light-recon vehicle. The AT-ST is a slower heavy-recon and support vehicle. AT-STs are equipped with a rotary cannon for anti-infanty, a twin blaster cannon for heavier armor, and a grenade launcher for everything. The Sentinel, depending on varient, can be equipped with flamethrowers, heavy lascannons for anti-vehicles, or basically any heavy weapon in the Imperial Armory. As a result, they can be specialized to handle their role much more than the AT-ST, but are much less flexible in battle. In base comparion, AT-ST wins.
Now, onto Titans and AT-ATs. Both the Warlord titan and AT-AT stand at about 22 meters, so we'll compare them. In battle, they have the same role: cracking open the enemy line and breaking everything inside. For this purpose, an ATAT is equipped with two medium and two heavy cannons. At long ranges, it can utterly wreck a defensive position. However, it is not very maneuverable, and lacks any secondary firing angles, meaning it can't defend against being outflanked. Warlords are built in the shape of a person, somewhat, and are equipped with incredibly powerful ranged weapons, often Volcano Cannons and Mega-bolters. They also possess point defense autocannon and Lascannon turrets to protect from infantry. If outflanked, the top portion can swivel at the waist at a moment's notice, allowing it to respond easily.
On a more minor note, the Imperium favors letting numbers and powerful weapons carry the day, often drowning enemy armies in a sea of bodies and bullets. Star Wars tends to favor more minor battles, with even the clone army being few in number. Victory goes to Warhammer.
Powers:
And now we compare the special abilities wielded by each side. Warhammer has the Psykers with their warp powers, while Star Wars has the Force.
Psykers are capable of ravaging battlefields with their abilities, warping machines and slaughtering enemies with rather horrifying powers. The most common method is through bio-lightning, though more gruesome methods are common. the downside is that Psykers have a tenuous grip on reality, and every use of their powers risks something more powerful taking notice and snuffing them out. If they're lucky. The risk of a psyker exploding and summoning a daemon into his own lines is a very real one.
The Force, on the other hand, is less powerful overall, but has no real risks when used. While what can be done with it is incredibly variable, it is a safe power to use, and can much more effectively turn the tide of a battle.
Victory to Star Wars.
Ground Summary:
Warhammer wins due to sheer firepower and intelligent construction. When Jedi or Sith enter the fray, the tide can shift against them, but their overall quality should carry the day.
(So I've managed to accidentally spark off a canon debate... I usually can't manage that deliberately! Anyway, I love this. ^^)
I kind of disagree with your disagreement, in a fair number of places:
Shields
These go together, because you've pinned your discussion of shields on the strength of the weapons (entirely fair). First off, the rules of canon have changed since the Disney takeover - everything is now officially at the same level of canon, so it doesn't matter if you cite The Empire Strikes Back, Star Wars: Rebels, Aftermath, or Doctor Aphra. That said... I don't know many details from the new canon, so I'll work from the movies anyway. ^^
You talk about shields holding up to 'continuous bombardment', but that's not really what we see. R2 gets knocked out in ANH by about six shots; in RotJ, two A-Wings fire for about a second to take out Executor's bridge shields and destroy the shield sensor big dome. The key seems to be that (unlike Star Trek, where shields are a bubble that stands or falls as a whole) it's possible to 'burn through' a point on the shields, and to do so very quickly. Presumably that then regenerates, as otherwise they wouldn't be much good, but if you can put two capital ship blasts on the same spot, you're probably getting through.
Shields can also be taken out and damaged through in a single hit. Just before the death of the Executor, we see an X-Wing blasted to smithereens by a single turbolaser shot. So a power discrepancy removes even the dubious benefit of energy shields.
Interestingly, both types of shields can be 'focussed' on a specific area - Han Solo keeps wanting to 'angle the deflector shields' - though the Executor shows that there are also separate generators for different areas of the ship. So you can knock out the forward shields without having to worry that they'll shift the rear shields to compensate.
Ultimately, I think both shields are broadly equivalent. Pinpoint targetting can take out Star Wars ships with ease, but in a long battle, they might last longer if they can keep from being critically hit.
Weapons
I'm... dubious about using the asteroids in ESB as a yardstick here. Looking first at fighter weapons, a direct hit to Artoo's dome left him in a recoverable condition, and most fighter deaths we see in RotJ occur by going out of control and hitting something; lasers are clearly designed to hit explosive components, not to destroy outright.
Turbolasers? As mentioned, one can take out a fighter in a single hit, but we don't see any turbolaser-damage to capital ships in RotJ. Both the Empire and the Rebellion use fighters to cause damage, and there must be a reason for that.
One possible reason is targetting. We know that the Falcon has no auto-targetting - just swivel chairs - and I don't think we ever see anything that does. The only way to hit something is to point your gun manually at it and hit the trigger. That's... not gonna get you very far at any range (and explains why all the guns seem to come in pairs - they need two simultaneous hits to get through the shields, and they can't do that with multiple shots!).
Maneuvering
This is where Star Wars takes the advantage, not just over 40K but over practically everything. Very few canons have a jump drive as fast as hyperdrive. Star Trek? Battlestar? Dead in the water compared even to an X-Wing. There is (somewhere - can't find it) a list of 'Star Wars v Star Trek' scenarios showing how each side would approach them, and virtually every time, the Empire just uses hyperdrive to bypass the problem.
This has actually gotten worse in the new canon. In The Force Awakens, the Falcon is shown to both jump to hyperspace from a ship's docking bay, and jump to inside a planetary shield, only a few hundred meters above the surface. No 'mass shadows' any more - they can jump anywhere, anywhen.
So, in the Empire v. Imperium war, the Imperium can probably decimate the Imperial fleet - until the Empire loads a Star Destroyer full of proton torpedos and jumps it directly from the outer rim of the galaxy, through (or past) Terra's shields, to crash directly onto the Golden Throne. Goodbye, God-Emperor of Mankind. Goodbye, Astronomican. Goodbye, warp travel. Goodbye, any hope the Imperium has of survival.
Yeah. Hyperdrive is basically the cheat code for these games.
But! Luckily we're not talking about an Imp-v-Imp war. We're talking about a couple of ships at most. So if we assume that the Imperium can't replicate the hyperdrive (which seems fair, given their technological state), you'd have to sacrifice a valuable piece of tech to pull something like that off. And it wouldn't be much good against Chaos, since they don't have a single point of failure to target. Might explain why they want to get their hands on it, though.
And that's the thing: we're not talking about bringing a fleet across, but a single ship. Turbolasers wouldn't do much good on an Imperium ship, because they'd be tied to the same operating system as the normal guns. If the hyperdrive can be scaled up (big if), you can outfit a single ship to be able to go anywhere fast, and probably give it energy shields - but once it runs into more than token opposition, it's space debris.
The Force
I agree with you that this is a big win for Star Wars, but that scale difference is going to be a killer. Remember that 200 Jedi basically lost the Battle of Geonosis, and that was against droids! A Force user would almost certainly survive in combat against the Imperium (unless they got shot in the back), but they wouldn't turn the tide of a pitched battle. They need the smaller scale, where they can take a pivotal action. (Unless you delve into the old canon and battle meditation, but we're not doing that. Sadly.)
Conclusion/Scenario
Out of nowhere, a Galaxy Far Far Away appears, intersecting the Milky Way at right angles. It's a little before the Thirteenth Black Crusade - and also just before the Battle of Yavin (ie, the Empire at its height, with the Death Star at its disposal to make things interesting). Since the GFFA is stuffed with aliens, and Palpatine is a Force user, the Imperium wants to blow it up/take it over. So how does the war go?
Assume for some reason that the 'blow up the Emperor' plan is impossible. Maybe hyperdrive can't jump past void shielding, that'll work. The Imperium probably sends the biggest fleet it can on the most direct route it can find towards Coruscant, but finds that the Empire can get everywhere before it. Every system they stop off in is fortified against them, and there's ambushes everywhere. They stall out, as so many Imperial crusades do.
Palpatine, meanwhile, has bigger problems: Chaos. The founder of the New Order finds the whole concept terrifying, and directs the full might of the Empire to take it out. But... it doesn't work. 40K ships are just too big, and Palpy's Force users keep going crazy and turning into demons (they have an open link to the minds of Chaos-infected soldiers, after all). The Death Star is all well and good, but it can't blow up the Eye of Terror.
From the 40K side, this turns into a stalemate. The Empire becomes something like the Tau: able to hold their own, but unable to make any real advances. They can strike at any system, but can't do enough damage for it to matter.
From the SW side, though... Palpatine likes superweapons. He loves them. And given that the First Order was able to build a hyperspace-firing planet-killer, it's safe to say that with a bit of research, he can build something to turn the tide...
Wait a decade or so. Then tell me how the Eye of Terror will hold up to a constant barrage of world-destroying shots, each powered by the death of a sun...
hS
Thanks so much. It's really helping me refine things. Keep in mind that my sister and I have come up with a lot more specific vignettes in between; what I'd written was more a broad overview. Yeah, we had a funny dynamic in the relationship between Mariel and Kiska's worldviews for a while--one being a pretty optimistic foot soldier, the other being...well...a Battle Sister. They nearly came to blows about things when they first met. (Remind me to tell you about the holy bone...) Anyway, I'll add more later, because it's time for me to head to class. Again, thanks so much.