Subject: You've taken your first step into a larger world...
Author:
Posted on: 2019-01-17 18:34:00 UTC
...via bad translation.
Subject: You've taken your first step into a larger world...
Author:
Posted on: 2019-01-17 18:34:00 UTC
...via bad translation.
Okay, this is possibly (probably?) a stupid question, but: why did Anakin Skywalker fall to the Dark Side? My memory of Revenge of the Sith is that he told Mace Windu that Palpatine was a Sith Lord, which is the act of a Jedi. He then walked in on Mace and Palpy fighting, with Palpatine claiming that his Force Lightning was a self-defence move, rather than the blatantly obvious attack it was. And then Palpy told him he could save Padme, and Anakin went 'welp, time to murder a Jedi Master and then go massacre some kiddies!'.
What... what happened in there? Does this mean the stuffy ol' Jedi Order was 100% correct about insisting that Jedi shouldn't be allowed to fall in love? The Light Side of the Force can't actually save people's lives from vaguely-defined Death, so even if Yoda and Obi-Wan had run Anakin's bachelor party, we would still have hit 'the Dark Side says it can save her when I can't'.
But I can't believe George Lucas' final message was 'love is terrible and leads to killing kids'. So why does Anakin fall - and what path would have led to him not doing so?
hS
Allah Skywalker, also known as Allah Gold, was sent by the Presbyterian Church to seduce Speaker D so he can find compromising information about him. This backfired, since Gold, resentful of his lack of respect among members of the Church, joined forces with Speaker D in his plan to form the Empire of the First Choice "to ensure the future safety with prospers". This was all part of D's long scheme to further his own power by legalizing religion.
Here is the beginning of an explanation for what I just said:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/WebOriginal/TheStarWarGatherings
Am I shorter now? Am I losing body parts like Vader? Has my hair dramatically receded? Am I a Mintakan and have just changed sex? Are we gambling with body parts? Am I only allowed to speak in Iambic Tetrameter now? Is it New Year and I've lost my 'walking in with a lump of coal' privileges?
What's going oooooooon?
hS
...via bad translation.
He cut his hand off in defence of Palpatine (who had ostensibly surrendered), and Palpatine murdered him by throwing him off a building.
After that, I guess Anakin's guilt for his role in Windu's death and his mistrust of the Jedi - and presumably he expected that he wouldn't exactly be welcomed back into the Order after defending a Sith Lord against a Jedi Master - led to him deciding "what the hell" and jumping off the slippery slope.
Actually, a comparison comes to mind - Redcloak, from The Order of the Stick. Like Anakin, Redcloak has a goal, and an exquisitely monstrous person offering him a path to that goal. And they both end up doing terrible things for that person in order to achieve their goal - Redcloak kills his own little brother; Anakin in complicit in the death of Mace Windu. That then leaves them with no excuse for their behaviour, so they cling to achieving their goals instead, in the service of the evil creature who they pretend to themselves can help them achieve it.
So that's it - Anakin defends a Sith from a Jedi in the heat of the moment, then continues to serve Palpatine because that gives him an excuse for his inexcusable behaviour - "it's to save my wife".
Of course, it's a selfish goal, because Anakin is ultimately pretty selfish.
And another thought, about the younglings - Anakin's super arrogant, and arrogance hates being judged. Wiping out the Jedi order was possibly, on Anakin's part, a desperate attempt to avoid being judged for his actions. In that light, the apprentices weren't children - they were part of the group which would seek to judge Anakin for his actions, and thus targets.
Of course, this was all ultimately precipitated by Palpatine's (and Jar Jar's) careful stroking of his ego and infatuation with Padmé. There was probably some subtle Force Suggestion involved, too.
In summary: Annie's an arrogant, selfish person who accidentally touched the slippery slope and then went "what the hell" because he didn't want his feelings hurt.
First, his upbringing. Anakin is an exceptional Jedi, immensely talented and extremely powerful. It teaches him a kind of arrogance, a belief that he really can do anything. And after all, why not? He's the Chosen One. Obi-Wan recognizes this, but his attempts to keep him humble only lead to Anakin feeling starved for recognition, which he receives not from his Master or from the Jedi, but from the Chancellor.
Which leads nicely into point two, the Clone Wars. Anakin's fatal flaw throughout the Prequel trilogy has always been his fear of loss. During the Clone Wars, Anakin loses friend after friend after friend, whther they be Clone Troopers or Jedi. In addition, his accomplishments as a general are still not recognized by the Jedi. Enter, Palpatine, who is there to encourage and manipulate him every single time the Jedi disappoint him. Over the course of the war his faith in the Council is shaken, his fear of loss is intensified, and his trust of Palpatine grows.
Finally, we come to the revelation that Palpatine is a Sith. Despite his trust in the Chancellor, despite his fear of losong Padmé, Anakin still does the right thing. He goes to Mace Windu and informs him of Palpatine's true nature. He sacrifices what he believes may be his only chance to save his wife, and Windu benches him. Anakin is one of the Order's best warriors, he knows Palpatine better than any other Jedi, he is without doubt their best chance at successfully taking Palpatine into custody, and Windu tells him to stay put.
So, when the final confrontation comes, Anakin walks in to find that not only was he right, the Masters who went to arrest the Chancellor did need his help, but the only survivor of the attempt is about to murder the Head of State of the Galactic Republic in cold blood, in violation of the Jedi Code. The same Code that has tormented Anakin ever since he began his relationship with Padmé, seems to be worth nothing even to a member of the Jedi Council.
At this point, Anakin has lost what little faith he has left in the Jedi, and once Windu is dead, he has, in his mind, already gone too far to go back on serving Palpatine. The rest, as they say, is history.
There's a quote from Knights of the Old Republic that I think could pretty well serve as the thesis statement for all of Star Wars, "Love doesn't lead to the dark side. Passion can lead to rage and fear, and can be controlled... but passion is not the same thing as love. Controlling your passions while being in love... that's what they should teach you to beware. But love itself will save you... not condemn you."
―Jolee Bindo
Fits pretty well, I think. Anakin fears losing Padmé, and his attempts to save her are what kill her. the Jedi fear that strong emotions will lead their members to the Dark Side, but their detachment only turns their members against them. Obi-Wan fears failing to teach Anakin, and his attempts to avoid that are what drive Anakin to Palpatine. The final act of the Original Trilogy is Luke overcoming his fear and anger to become a Jedi, and it's his father's love for him that saves him, and by extension, the galaxy.
Apologies if this a bit rambly and/or typo ridden, in a bit of rush at the moment, but I just couldn't help but chime in. What can I say, I'm a Prequel fan at heart.
Or at least, betrayed first.
I don't doubt for a second that the love between Anakin and Padmé was real. I think Anakin knew, in his heart, that their relationship was good for both of them . . .
. . . And yet, his fellow Jedi are always talking about how love is bad, feelings are bad, getting attached to people is bad . . .
And when Padmé's life was threatened, at least in Anakin's dream-visions, and he feared for her safety, what help did he get from his Jedi teammates? None. Let that person go. Focus on upholding social and political order. The system that Anakin had lived within since the age of ten gave him no help, no way to protect the one person he cared for the most.
It's not that Palpatine was so very charming or persuasive to Anakin. It's that Palpatine was throwing Anakin literally the only rope, the only possible way out. The Jedi betrayed Anakin first.
(At least in his mind.)
As for attacking the younglings, and later Padmé herself? I'll admit, neither of those really follow from my reading. It may be that the intense guilt Anakin felt from helping to kill Mace allowed Palpatine to further influence his mind in a way he hadn't been able to before. Or maybe, even more darkly, finally throwing off the rigid tenets of the Jedi code from his moral being led Anakin to finally succumb to the desire for power he had already been entertaining before that point (and a desire that was already tied to his love for Padmé, wanting to be strong enough to protect her). But due to the nature of the Force in that universe, the obsession with power finally corrupted his heart to the point that it eclipsed even the love that had originally fueled it.
—doctorlit, rather fond of the prequels
Agreed, it's not that he wanted to fall to the dark side. He saw it as unavoidable if he were to save his love. He realized, perhaps, that the Jedi had been utterly blind when Palpatine revealed himself. He realized that he couldn't trust them anymore if they couldn't find a Sith lord right under their noses. And then he tried to rationalize everything, to stick to doctrine, by reporting his findings to Windu. And then he realized (with telepathic help from Sidious in the movie) that while he could be (relatively) certain of saving Amidala with the knowledge offered by Palpatine, according to the Chancellor himself at least, he feared that the Jedi would give him only condemnation and exile, because they'd been so stubborn on attachment beforehand.
See, if I were Anakin I would've fired up my lightsaber and lopped off Palpatine's head once he admitted he had lost the knowledge I so desperately needed. It seems a more logical solution than sticking with him when he admits he can't deliver on his offer. And then I would get the attention and validation from the council that I so desperately craved, by virtue of being the one to take down the Sith Lord. Hell, maybe I could use my confirmed status as the Chosen One to bring about reforms that would let me stay with my wife, but that would probably be wishful thinking. But with the immediate crisis over, who knows? Maybe the foundation of the Order could be revisited...
Of course, then the original trilogy would be reduced to an AU....
I believe the real message is the danger of trying to defy destiny. He ended up killing her himself and fulfilling his nightmares of her dying. The novelization (which is excellent) implies that he thought she was in an affair with Obi-wan. And also that he was so wrapped up in thinjing about himself that he didn't stop to think about her. Which, quoth the epilogue, is the real revenge of the Sith, for now himself is all he will ever have as he wakes up as Darth Vader.
Except we know that's not true, even though Yoda thinks it is.
"If you leave now, help them you could; but you would destroy all for which they have fought, and suffered."
Except, um... he didn't. Luke's interference (in distracting Vader) saved everyone except Han, and definitely didn't destroy the Rebellion. Unless Yoda was looking into the deep future, with a 'if you find out Vader's your father, then one day your nephew will turn into a Vader cosplayer', Yoda was just wrong.
I mean, look at this:
"Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them, do not. Miss them, do not. Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed, that is."
The Republic is at war. The Jedi Order's whole thing right then is keeping people from dying. Plus, if a Republic Senator is in danger, that tells you something's seriously wrong - they should be safe on Coruscant! You don't have to dive headlong into paradox mode to take heed of the warnings from the Force.
I like your 'selfishness' interpretation more than the 'destiny' one. Anakin refused to tell anyone any details of his visions; he refused to accept that maybe he wasn't the best person to help; and he got so wrapped up in himself that he stopped noticing her at all.
Still doesn't explain how he went from 'I need him' to 'wooo, kiddy murder!' in about a minute and a half, though.
hS
Yeah, maybe chalk the abrupt transition up to having to cram things into a single movie? Can't really make an episode 3.5 to flesh things out more...
I mean, this isn't technically the first time he's killed kids, either. RIP Sand People in episode 2. Maybe the red mist just descended again with the help of the dark side of the Force, and he went berserk? Or he felt he had no choice; I never really got the impression he enjoyed it...