I now want to see...

In-universe accents and the phonological history of English by Tawaki on 2020-12-01 15:18:22 UTC Reply

Note: Pronunciations are represented according to the International Phonetic Alphabet.

When an audio-visual work is set somewhere where the work's original language was spoken, as well as a few centuries past, it is not uncommon to update the characters' accents for clarity's sake. Even Uru and Myst V: End of Ages, set in the modern day, have Yeesha speaking in an unrealistically modern dialect of English--she would actually, in-universe, be speaking in whichever late seventeenth century dialect her father learned from his grandmother†. Of course, MREDURE is no stranger to the Literary Agent Hypothesis.

I got started on the tack because one of the charges in "Mara-thon" was having "hull" and "full" rhyme in English as Captain Jack Sparrow spoke it. Well, the put-strut split‡ did not happen everywhere in the English-speaking world, and little was known of Captain Sparrow's backstory at the time the fic was written. It did seem possible, albeit unlikely, that he may have pronounced the words as "hʊl" and "fʊl" in-universe. Not that that excuses any of the Suethor's other innumerable (and often greater) blunders.

Thoughts?

† Even part-Ronay like Atrus and Yeesha have longer natural life spans than we do.

‡ Early Modern English /ʊ/ often developed into /ʌ/ (or in some dialects /ɐ/), but this change was often--though not always--blocked by preceding labial consonants and/or following /l/, /ʃ/, or /tʃ/

For fic-critique purposes... by Neshomeh on 2020-12-03 22:40:35 UTC Reply

When it comes to judging rhymes, for the reasons you and hS point out, I would consider the nationality of the author, if that can be determined, before worrying about anything in-universe. I think knowing the intricacies of how English pronunciation has evolved over the decades in multiple countries would be asking too much of the average good writer. If the rhyme works for their modern dialect, that should be acceptable. There's nitpicking, and then there's just being a jerk.

In-universe, the effects of Standard Translation (and not-so-standard localization) may give grounds for leniency, depending on the circumstances. The canon characters probably wouldn't sound exactly as their actors or authors portray them in any number of circumstances, but the job of a fic writer is to do the best we can with the tools we've got, not to work out the precise phonology of a fictional language from scratch. {= )

Whether Mara and Isaiah considered any of this, I have no idea.

~Neshomeh

I now want to see... by Huinesoron on 2020-12-04 08:51:55 UTC Reply

... an incredibly uptight PPC agent (probably from SIELU) who cares only about pronunciation. They're called in as a consultant when someone has a question about language issues, and they will ignore everything around them in order to nitpick exactly how that character 'should' sound - of course while talking in that same accent.

...

I'm not gonna do it, and the main reason is that I don't know how you'd write that. English orthography isn't consistent enough to allow "I say dee-uw on ston" to be... uh... it kind of is, isn't it?

...

Running through the list: teem; say; est; nahm; dahy(?); hoose; mawn; ston; knouw(?); laauw; neeuw; deeuw; that; foux; [can't do cut].

Okay, new main reason: it looks stupid. ^_^

hS

I don't know the history... by Huinesoron on 2020-12-01 17:00:23 UTC Reply

... but I do know the present. ^_^ "Hull" and "full" (and indeed "put" and "strut") are rhymes in a lot of accents from northern England - Yorkshire and Durham are the ones I'm thinking of, which happen to be my parents' native accents. We once bought one of my cousins a book, a (rubber) duck, and a (coat)hook for christmas - because Up North, they rhyme perfectly.

hS

Interestingly! by Huinesoron on 2020-12-02 16:25:56 UTC Reply
There are two major differences I'm aware of between Northern and Southern English accents: that put/strut split, and the trap/bath split. I've always had the Southern pronunication for the former, but have never shaken the Northern version of the latter. Possibly this is because of the abundance of American accents in television, which follow the Northern convention on 'a', but the Southern on 'u'? But I've never even been tempted by the lot/cloth split (or the related cot/caught merger), which are apparently not found in England at all.

All of these splits and mergers seem to have happened in the 17th century (so yes, before Cap'n Jack was around); what in the name of sanity was going on back then? Did they just, like... get bored of how they were talking and decide to mix things up a bit? Apparently yes, because I guess this is all part of/adjunct to the Great Vowel Shift.

...

Which is a really weird thing that happened. Looking at the 'overall changes' table, and comparing Late Middle English (14th century) with Modern English:
- time sounds like scheme
- see sounds like (Northern or American) play
- east sounds like bed
- name sounds like (Canadian or California) hat
- day sounds like (American) cat
- house sounds like moon
- moon sounds like (RP) yawn
- stone sounds like not
- know is a diphthong: not-moon
- law is another diphthong, of (American) hot or (RP) bath & moon
- new is either free-moon or play-moon
- dew is bed-moon
- that sounds like (Canadian or California) hat (ie, it matches name)
- fox sounds like ... well, Wikipedia can't find anything better than (American/Northern) Cambodia
- cut sounds like put
... which is the sound shift that started this whole conversation. ^_^

hS