Subject: Scoops up the Mini um ... something Murphry
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Posted on: 2012-09-18 20:35:00 UTC
Uh ...what would that Mini be? Possibly Dresden Files for a canonical Murphy or Real World?
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Inheritance Cyle- Not So Bad, Maybe? by
on 2012-09-17 02:35:00 UTC
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See, here's the thing. Yes, he's still a Stu and all his compatriots aren't much different. But they're not as bad as we all think. Let's break up Eragon and the others...
Personality-
He actually seems like a slightly above-average guy. His determination is uncommon, and likely fueled by a very un-Stu-ish trait- his foolishness. He can be a genius sometimes- he learned to read in less than a week- but these stints of increased intelligence are rare and short. Most of the time he's as dumb as a brick. How many stupid things has he done? A lot, I tell you what!
Story-
Here's where it gets bad. He's such a cliche in this respect. A guy on a quest for vengeance and then off to save the world. Falls in love with a princess and everything. And there's the over-the-top scene where he gets healed at the Blood-Oath Celebration. Yowch. He gets redemption points when the romance spends most of its time not going his way, when he screws up, and when he reacts like a normal person would in messed up situations. Sometimes, he does things just for show and admits it. He isn't exactly humble- indeed, he's proud to a fault. He has a very "look-at-me" attitude at times- not in the way he is written, but as a person.
Weapons-
His weapon, contrary to popular belief, is not a Sword of Sueness. Brisingr, while indeed a powerful and beautiful blade, is by no means one-of-a-kind. Every single Rider had a sword like his, made of the special metal and given its special enchantments. There are literally hundreds of swords with the same enhancements. Each one is unique in its own fashion, mind you- personally forged by Ruhon to fit a particular Rider's fighting style- but that is to be expected with such important warriors. The biggest difference between Eragon's blade and the literally hundreds of others? His lights on fire. And it was a mistake, too. See? He messed up. And then he messed up again by dropping his blade in surprise. It works to his advantage, however, making a good psychological weapon as well as burning through things made of wood.
Za'roc went to Murtagh. While this blade was used for a time by Eragon, and was indeed quite a thing in comparison to those of the average enemy, it wasn't really that much better. It simply didn't need maintenance.
The falchion was definitely not a Stu weapon. It broke, for Celestia's sake!
His bows. One was very average. The other may have been a Stu-ish weapon, being a personal gift from the Elf Queen and all. But, again, he is a highly important warrior at the time.
Abilities-
Here's where the lad really loses Stu points. He is not suddenly, magically good at fighting. In fact, he sucks when he starts out and continually gets his butt kicked. He builds the skill over time, just like we in the real world would have to. His archery is good because he's been doing it for years- and for survival, at that.
His magic? It followed the same route as his swordsmanship- he started off totally incapable and worked his way up. And his magic, while a powerful tool and weapon, has its limits- he's almost killed himself with it more than once.
While he did work himself up to an extraordinary level of skill, he did so over many months and with a Hell of a lot of practice.
Now, let's look at Arya. She and the others are not so in depth, but let's see...
No redemption on her. She's so Sue we may as well call her Fernflower and turn her loose on the Marlfoxes.
Roran-
Well, he's not so bad. He's just really, really strong and a really, really good person. He fights with a hammer- what kind of Stu uses such a simple, crude, yet effective weapon? He's an average guy in terms of looks. His girlfriend- now wife- is decent, but not Sue by any means. Sure, he survived the wall, but out of necessity to the ripped-from-Star Wars- albeit well-ripped- plot. Maybe it's because he spent most of the series being a minor character, but he's not a Stu.
Nasuada-
May be a slight Sue. However, she must be an exceptional person, or she wouldn't be able to lead the Varden- she is as she is by necessity to the plot. Her relationship with Murtagh, however, loses her some serious brownie points, being very reminiscent of Bella and Edward in my eyes. She isn't perfect, though, and she definitely isn't helpless.
Elva-
Is an enigma. I'm not sure whether to call her Sue. On one hand, tragic past and very adult for a 3-year-old. However, she isn't magically accepted by others- indeed, she is, as would be expected, shunned. Her illness was partially necessary to the plot and partially necessary to Eragon's angstiness later on. She also provides something interesting- a lot of ficcers want to know what happened to her in the end.
Angela-
Another I'm not sure of. On one hand, her abilities are extraordinary- excessive, even. However, she is often dishonorable and tricky, both of which are un-Sue-like qualities...
Solembum-
He would be a Cute Animal Friend, but he's too vicious and sapient for that. He, too, is a trickster. He is also a member of a supposedly mythical race. He may be a Stu, but he isn't featured enough for a real determination.
Brom-
Is no Stu. He may be old and strong and wise, but have you ever met an ancient Stu who actually looked old? Brom looked well into his fifties. Sure he could be a little angsty sometimes, but that was about it. He made mistakes. He screwed up. He even spent a lot of the one book he was in lying.
Orik-
The least Stu-ish of the main characters. Orik gets drunk. He's unrefined. He's a mostly-average guy until he gets the throne. He curses, he eats like a pig. He even gets mad when it's not entirely justified! Besides, what sort of Stu would a Dwarf make?
Nar Grahzvog-
Is a big, ugly Urgal. Definitely not a Stu. He is sophisticated in his own way. He is quite bright, actually. He isn't particularly eloquent, however, and can sometimes be a little unaccepting and often misunderstands things from human, Dwarvish, or Elvish culture.
So, maybe Eragon and the Inheritance Cycle aren't as bad as we thought? Opinions, anyone? -
Re: Inheritance Cyle- Not So Bad, Maybe? by
on 2012-09-23 05:51:00 UTC
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You all make valid points, of course. As I said, all still huge Sues and Stus, just not as much so as we all think. I like to think that Paolini was at least trying most of the time. He did at least try to make good characters- early on, anyway. I kind of get the sense that he stopped trying about halfway through Brisingr. He did use a lot of deus ex machina stuff. But the series sort of started out pretty alright and then went downhill, you know?
Inheritance (the final book) was where stuff really got bad though. That was where we got Roran taking down a city with no particular plan, Galbatorix basically creating (and Eragon surviving) a small nuclear blast, the Vault of Souls, and Arya becoming a Rider, not to mention Angela's absolutely ridiculous fighting ability.
Forgive me, but the Redwall series took a similar downturn towards Mr. Jacques' unfortunate death. I love almost every single one of the series that I've read up to now, but Rogue Crew killed me inside. I think anything written after it would be unbearable. Seriously, Skor wore tanned hides and still got called a good guy. Think what would happen if a vermin wore otter hides. Sure, the same sort of double standard exists in the real world, but that may be taking it a bit far. It's not the worst book I've read, not by any means, but I still stand that it wasn't exactly good, although I did enjoy it. Probably more because of Razzid and the Wiltuds than anything. I hated Skor though- almost as much as I hate Fernflower. I didn't like Rake Nightfur a whole lot either. Dual-wielding claymores? Hah, no. That's about as plausible as Eragon's learning to read in a week.
Keep in mind I'm still a loyal fan of the series and don't murder me or anything. The only series I haven't found fault of some kind with yet is LotR, though I'm sure it's there. -
I find it hard to agree. by
on 2012-09-18 02:32:00 UTC
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What gets me about the whole series is that it's so inconsistent. Eragon is a complete idiot most of the time, except for random instances of pure genius when it would be convenient for him, such as learning to read in a week. His healing ability seems to come and go as well; he cured cancer in a few minutes, but it takes him more than an hour to heal a cleft palate. Elven magic is explained in great detail, there's even a spell glossary in the back of the book, but dragon magic is hardly explained at all, and often acts like a deus ex machina. The Elves, we have all agreed, are a giant race of Sues that completely rip off Tolkien's Elves, so shouldn't the fact that Eragon is slowly turning into one be a somewhat Stuish trait? And sure, he doesn't get the girl he wants, but I seem to recall several others being interested in him. His one major physical flaw is totally erased during the aforementioned Blood-Oath celebration.
I have a whole 'nother rant for his sword, which you claim to not be a Sword of Stuness. Your first argument, that the sword was not unique, is only half true. Yes, other Dragon Riders had swords of a similar nature, but each one was a different color and was specially made for that rider. The fact that Eragon named his "fire" in a magical language in which words have power and didn't expect it to burst into flames is an astounding lack of logic on his part. What also gets me is the blacksmith, who belongs to a supposedly peaceful race, yet is incredibly skilled at making swords. Inheritance-verse Elves don't even use swords, so how was she able to practice? That's not the sort of thing you learn from guesswork and approximation.
When it comes to this series, I can't help but root for the bad guy. Galbatorix is just a cardboard cutout of a villain, and even then he hasn't really done anything wrong. I mean sure, he killed a few people, but Eragon has killed dozens more. And he really hasn't done anything bad as a ruler, if anything he made the country better. He kind of reminds me of Ventinari in that everyone hates him, but they have to admit that he does his job well.
- This has been a rant on the Inheritance Cycle by TheMadHatteress. -
Scoops up the Mini Luggage Ventinari by
on 2012-09-18 16:49:00 UTC
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Does this belong to anyone?
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Shoot... by
on 2012-09-18 19:57:00 UTC
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I keep telling myself I should proofread these things. I guess that's Murphry's law for you.
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Scoops up the Mini um ... something Murphry by
on 2012-09-18 20:35:00 UTC
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Uh ...what would that Mini be? Possibly Dresden Files for a canonical Murphy or Real World?
- Actually, that wasn't a mistake. by on 2012-09-18 22:03:00 UTC Reply
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Oh wait, no r (nm) by
on 2012-09-18 22:13:00 UTC
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Whoops, sorry 'bout that. (nm) by
on 2012-09-18 22:13:00 UTC
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Well, it's an incarnation of a natural law... by
on 2012-09-18 21:17:00 UTC
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... surely that makes it a mini-Auditor?
[Ducks; ducks; ducks and covers]
hS -
*Drops the Mini Auditor and runs for the hills.* (nm) by
on 2012-09-18 21:46:00 UTC
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You're forgetting... by
on 2012-09-17 05:58:00 UTC
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...that the entire elvish race is one giant homogeneous lump of Sue. They are simply the best at everything, and seem to have all the answers.
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Well... by
on 2012-09-17 06:26:00 UTC
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Paolini elves are made of this trope.
I was seriously rooting for the Empire throughout the entire series. As TV Tropes so eloquently puts it, "Screw you, elves!" -
My opinion... [Contains spoilers for entire series] by
on 2012-09-17 04:00:00 UTC
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I still see them all as Sues. I'd just like to offer some counterpoints to your arguments:
Firstly, Eragon's name is on letter away from being "dragon". Honestly.
Eragon's personality
Foolishness seems here to replace the "adorable clumsiness syndrome" found in certain female Sues.
He can be a genius sometimes- he learned to read in less than a week- but these stints of increased intelligence are rare and short.
Plot-induced intelligence, perhaps?
Eragon's story
Just one thing: He gets redemption points when the romance spends most of its time not going his way[...].
Even if he doesn't succeed at everything doesn't subtract Sue-points away from him. The author still *has* to show us some sort of suspense/drama/struggle, ne?
Eragon's weapons
I agreed until this bit: The biggest difference between Eragon's blade and the literally hundreds of others? His lights on fire.
Is that not the very definition of Speshul?
And then he messed up again by dropping his blade in surprise.
If I was fighting with a weapon and it suddenly decides to light itself on fire, I'd drop it too. Dropping your weapon in surprise doesn't really make you less of a Sue, mate...
Eragon's abilities
He can place multiple wards on half a dozen VIPs and still not die from sudden energy drain in battle. Sure, he might have constructed the spell so that it runs on the people themselves but surely *they* do not have the stamina of an Ubercharged half-elf half-human? The energy loss would be like piling ten centimetres of plate armour on your back and running a marathon in the middle of the Sahara.
With no water.
As for the other characters...
Arya: Completely agree.
Roran: This is the guy who killed about 200 soldiers by himself, wrestled a Urgal to the ground, breached a city with a completely improvised plan, and armed with so much plot armour a Dalek would have trouble scratching it.
Stu.
Nasuada: Feels off for me. Her resisting Galbatorix's attempts to undermine her sanity is sketchy, considering the king managed to break every single person he wanted to manipulate.
Elva: Sue. A toddler suddenly as mature as an adult? Doesn't fly with me, even if magic is involved. I think a child with her powers would go mad rather than to grow up like she did.
Also needs to be disciplined.
Angela: Speshul weapons? Check. Mysterious (read: completely unexplained) backstory? Check. Powerful influences? Check. Powerful magic user? Check. The fact that she becomes a walking plot device by the fourth book doesn't help either.
Solembum: I don't even know, to be honest. He seems pretty okay, if not a bit plot-devicey.
Brom: Seems decent. In my opinion, one of the more plausible characters in the story, even if he was practically a clone of Obi-Wan Kenobi.
Orik: Agree on the fact that he's not a Stu, but I'm not sure if I follow your reasoning. Being rude, alcoholic, slightly crazy, and "unrefined" does not automatically subtract Sueishness points. Beware the Anti-Sue.
Nar Grahzvog: I like this guy. Agree with you on the fact that he isn't a Sue, but once again not because he is "ugly" and part of the monster-turned-ally-race.
...aaaand that's all I have. Thoughts? -
Don't forget... by
on 2012-09-17 13:44:00 UTC
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That all the more interesting characters are secondary. This is one of the things that immediately raises my canon Sue/Stu warning flag: that I care more about the half-developed, or undeveloped, secondary characters than the protagonist, because their struggles are a foregone conclusion and not holding my interest.
For example, Murtaugh, Nasuada, Roran and Orrin were all more interesting in books one and two, before they became main characters. After that, it seems like they got flanderized and their characterizations are less consistent.
Also, the reading, in less than a week during his teen years... that doesn't fly with me. (Everything else at least got the "a wizard did it" treatment: maybe if Saphira learned to read (she's mentally very young at that point, should have a brain like a sponge,) and coached him through their bond. But I expect it to take a while longer than was shown.) It's a flaw that Paolini put in, either for historical accuracy of some sort or because he wanted an extra struggle, and which quickly gets handwaved and forgotten. It's not even plot-induced intelligence, it's Paolini discovering a trait that was going to be inconvenient and killing it off as soon as was possible.
Overall, though, I find Eragon to be drop dead mediocre as a teen/YA fantasy novel. (Of course, I found Twilight drop-dead mediocre-to subpar as a teen romance novel, but I have radically lower expectations for romance novels in general and ones with pretensions to supernatural plots in particular, and did before starting.) Yeah, he's a stu. He's not a particularly entertaining stu, but he doesn't (usually) make me want to hurl vitriol. He's kind of a boring stu.