Subject: Outnumbered
Author:
Posted on: 2022-04-23 04:28:22 UTC
I'm just gonna assume based on this thread that I'm outnumbered politically here at the PPC. shrugs Which is fine, 'cause I'm here for the badfic sporking, not excess political argumentation.
This week on eyebrow-raising articles, I found this interesting one, dated 2022. Since it's so recent, I'd like to see comm reactions to this.
(Just to sorta break the chain on people saying they hadn't read Twilight :P)
That being said it's been a While since I did. I do remember book Edward being a bit more clear about how he'd stop if Bella told him to stop. (It's interesting because I've also read Fifty Shades, and book Christian is worse about explicating the boundaries for BDSM than the movie one, but that's a different, not worksafe can of worms.) That being said, he does have his moments where his impulse for "chivalry" harms Bella psychologically, notably when he tries breaking up with her in New Moon because something something he's ~too dangerous~ for her. This causes her to do some pretty drastic stuff in order to hear his voice in her head again, which most well-adjusted people would probably realise is actually a sign that he's bad for her, but a lot of teenagers don't necessarily share that same understanding.
I do think I know where the appeal in an Edward-type character lies, though. The stock 'silent brooding protector' is like catnip for romance. It's just that not everyone knows where to draw the line between protective and smothering, or protective and possessive. A non-abusive person would be understanding of those boundaries, and respect their partner's space. Edward claims he would leave if Bella asked him to, but Bella being bad at setting boundaries isn't a free ticket to be creepily possessive. I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting a strong silent protector-type character -- heck, LSY has some of those characteristics! It's just that he's interacting with people who know when to put their foot down about his brooding mother hen instincts :P -- but when that type of character is written wrong, they quickly become abusive. (See: the Dark F*** Prince characterisation of Thorin and Lan Wangji in fanfic.)
Honestly, for me, Twilight has more pressing issues like its depiction of Native American culture and (BL10, 11). Writing-wise the side characters are more interesting than the main characters, and the final "battle" in Breaking Dawn really was anticlimactic. Bella has no particularly interesting character traits because she's a meant to be a reader-insert. And the fact that her having babies and becoming a vampire is the way in which she really gets some agency for herself is... kind of a disturbing message to send to young readers. Edward's characterisation is definitely part and parcel with that disturbing message, but I do find that a lot of people focus too much on him and not on the other themes in the book that are subtler yet no less problematic.
Twilight really doesn't seem like a book series I'd like, so I'm going to just not read and not judge.Not that I wouldn't read any missions in the continuum. Of course, I like Eragon, and it's probably not a good idea to go around telling PPCers I want Permission from that the characters they think are Canon Sues are actually well-written. Though, maybe I could ship Eragon and Bella? :)
Fifty Shades, though - yuck. That's all I need to say.
You can enjoy things with Canon Sues in them! Life is too short not to indulge in some wish-fulfillment once in a while.
I still feel it's important to acknowledge said flaws, not to pretend they don't exist and write off any criticism as fake news the woke agenda conspiracy *AHEM* baseless. Sorry, I digress, but I've been in some comment sections lately with lots of people whining about how they just want to be ~*entertained*~ and why does everything have to be so political (read: challenging to the status quo) nowadays. Let's also acknowledge that not all criticism is created equal. >.>
Digression over: I love the Dragonriders of Pern series, but I'm not gonna pretend like the dialogue isn't sometimes awkward or that the feminism doesn't show its age and the author's somewhat off-kilter opinions, ya know? Gotta take the bad with the good as well as the good with the bad.
And for the love of Glod recognize when one vastly outweighs the other.
~Neshomeh
It feels weird that my parents, who raised me to be so dutiful and hard-working, and to put entertainment last, are now so focused on just enjoying entertainment, and wanting to ignore problems in the world. But I guess their version of "hard-working" is just "earn money for yourself," not "address social ills for the benefit of others." : (
—doctorlit, the only leftie in a family of sixteen
I'm just gonna assume based on this thread that I'm outnumbered politically here at the PPC. * shrugs * Which is fine, 'cause I'm here for the badfic sporking, not excessive political argumentation.
I expect you've read our Constitution? If not, please do. {= )
But yes, in general, we tend rather strongly liberal/progressive here. Largely because a great many of our members are part of groups that the liberal/progressive side (as a movement) tends to support and the conservative side (as a movement) tends to repress and harm. It's good to be aware of that.
~Neshomeh
And as far as I can tell, the Constitution can be summed up as “be kind, write well”.
I totally agree with that.
Though I disagree somewhat with “Republicans always discriminate”, as it’s not accurate.
...between "this thing has flaws so we have to shun it forever" and "we need to ignore all the flaws because critiquing things is bad". Like, I personally don't question why people enjoy books like Twilight. I have students who do! And that makes me happy because that means they're interested in something in English and we can talk about it! If I can gently tell them about some of the issues in the books, I would like to do it in a way that doesn't stop them from enjoying it.
Similarly, I've come to detest Martin Freeman as a person because his brand of humour seems to be offending people for fun and giggles (and he once called Lucy Liu a dog, so eww), but I can still acknowledge that he's a phenomenal actor, and I still enjoy how he portrayed Bilbo in the Hobbit films. Similarly similarly, The Author Who Must Not Be Named is a dumpster fire terrible person, but there's no dodging the impact her books have had on fandom as a whole, and I still have some nostalgia for that world even though I love pointing out its flaws now.
It's really about being balanced and nuanced in media consumption, but lots of social networking sites (read: Twitter) don't give you the character space to do that.
Well, I'll say that Eragon's not my favorite character. And leave it at that. Without having to strikethrough everything - Oh wait.
He reminds me of me, a no nonsense sort who sees a problem, and works at it until it's not a problem any more. The only way to go!
—doctorlit is only halfway through that series, but he's sure nothing will happen in the remaining two to make him change his mind, or cause this comment to age hilariously
And doctorlit, you're right. Roran is great.
Forget this one; I thought this was replying to the GotG one below.
I like the Hobbit movies.
I do really like them! It was my introduction to LOTR (I only read the book later, for school). How could I not? (And the hedgehog scene won me over because I like hedgehogs).
-kA, who really wants to interact with a hedgehog again. Cute little things!
fleshed out the Dwarves and gave Thorin's quest a bit more nuance than what was in the books. Not as much of a fan of the timeline and geographical compressions needed to make the Dol Guldur subplot work, but I sort of understand why they did it in terms of setting it up as prequel to LotR for casual viewers who aren't steeped in the books. Also not a fan of the overemphasis on Legolas and the overreliance on CGI, but some of the content was put in through studio meddling :P
The original LotR movies were a work of love and it really shows; the Hobbit movies were trying to capture that, but the studio really messed up the heart of those movies -- but there's still a lot of good in there, and I do enjoy the first and second Hobbit films because of the additional depth they brought to Thorin and Company. Especially adding an arc to the Thorin and Bilbo relationship.
Movie!Thranduil makes me hot and bothered.
If you haven't seen him in Pushing Daisies, he's a real heartthrob there. I got into baking pies because of Ned.
"I will cure it" is golden.
Lee Pace as Thranduil the reason I continued watching as I am a Tolkien purist and dislike much of what the Hobbit films did.
I'm a bit disappointed that he didn't get more lines in it.
And Silm isn't translated in my country yet.
That's a character type that's very commonly seen in video games as player characters.
If someone could help me, I'll implement it when I get off work.
[Spoiler description](#s "A spoiler")
This becomes: Spoiler description
-kA, who Did Not Expect That To Work
(Edit: Forgot sign-off :/)
I also Haven't Read the Thing, though I did see the first movie. Regardless, when it comes to analyses of Edward's behavior, I choose to trust a licensed relationship counselor over a random article-writer. {= )
The article-writer does have a point that what's attractive is subjective, and what a person finds attractive in fiction doesn't necessarily reflect what they find attractive IRL. People like the Phantom of the Opera for similar reasons: yeah, he's a dangerous monster, but if he love me, he'll be my dangerous monster, and only dangerous to people who would hurt me. It's fine for a fantasy.
But, I think the writer doing exactly what scares a lot of us by ignoring or excusing Edward's negative qualities to paint him in a positive light, which is exactly what people trapped in abusive relationships do. It's self-defense: We aren't wrong to love this person, we didn't make a mistake, because look, there's XYZ. That makes up for ABCDEFG, because that's not who they really are. We can see the truth and that actually makes us special. If we're just patient enough, we can help them overcome those negative things, and then everything will be fine. Right?
Except, no, real-life abusers will not stop being abusers just because someone loves them hard enough. They have to make the choice and do the work to change, and if they're getting everything they want by being abusive, why in the world would they do that?
TL;DR it's fine to like Edward as a fictional fantasy, but it's very dangerous if you get mixed up with his ilk IRL.
~Neshomeh
Probably a repost for visablity.
Personal opnion: I still find it stalking, but I probably also shouldn't really say anything because I haven't read Twilight and the entire series is banned in my house (alongside Stephen King novels) and I've tried reading it but had to stop after... some point. Maybe when Chief Charlie got introduced (is there a chief Charlie? I remember there being one and I couldn't get the image of Chief Burns stuck in the rain and wet outta my head). I don't exactly recall. Then again, romance isn't my genre, so...
-kA, who's trying to say that they can't have an opnion because they haven't Read The Thing.
I don't personally have much of an opinion on Twilight. Never read it.