This is a much better take than mine. {= ) (nm)

Subject: This is a much better take than mine. {= ) (nm)
Author: Neshomeh
Posted on: 2022-06-09 17:21:29 UTC

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Observation on the Avatar Wiki by Linstar on 2022-06-08 13:50:51 UTC Reply

Avatar: The Last Airbender is one of my favorite fandoms, and its wiki has a feature I’d like to bring up: its fanon pages.

Essentially, the Avatar Wiki is an Avatar-only fanfiction hosting site. Thisis relevant to us for a couple reasons:

1: Some of those fanfics are going to be bad, and probably sporkable too.

2: We could host PPC stories on our wiki. While we probably wouldn’t want to put them all on the wiki, stuff like TOS, the Reorganisation, and Crashing Down could have another rehost site.

Thoughts?

—Ls

Quick Wiki note on out-of-continuity stories. by Huinesoron on 2022-06-10 11:55:43 UTC Reply

(Not to you, Linstar, just wanted this at the top of the thread.)

For agents who have been declared out-of-continuity by their authors, it's probably best to avoid adding archival links for missing stories. They have often been removed for a good reason.

(This message brought to you by the recent recovery of an Agent Rosedale story. It's partly my fault, because I was asked to blank July's agent pages back in 2018 but missed the Building Maintenance ones. I've gone through and removed all remaining links, including the recovered one, so hopefully we won't hit this issue again.)

hS

Quick wiki question. by Kittyauthor on 2022-06-10 13:37:30 UTC Reply

Once David Null switches partners, what do I do on the "The Complete List of PPC Fiction?" Should I wait until David Null and K get to the number of missions David Null and Paye have endured, or should I seperate them (in a sense) and list David Null with x missions, K with Y missions, and Paye with x-y missions (or, to play with actual numbers (including the unpublished mission 3 and planned missions 6 and 7), David with 7, K with 1, and Paye with 6)?

-kA, hoping that this makes sense.

And another one on top of that. by Kittyauthor on 2022-06-11 21:17:06 UTC Reply

I noticed the ff.net link to the "Dawn and Dusk" story is broken, with no archives on the Wayback Machine. Should I just delete the link from the page?

-kA

I saw that too. by Linstar on 2022-06-11 22:02:31 UTC Reply

Just forgot to say so.

I dunno, but I have another idea... by Neshomeh on 2022-06-08 14:32:27 UTC Reply

The purpose of a wiki is not to be a primary source or an archive. It's to be an encyclopedia—a quick reference for basic information and a guide to finding appropriate primary sources. To me, the idea of hosting stories on it goes against the grain.

On a related note, though, I have had the thought that it might be good to have pages about spin-offs or individual stories, particularly ones that cover significant events. I imagine they'd each have a brief synopsis of the plot (the one with the agents in) and a section for notable details, like first mentions of gadgets and whatnot. These could possibly even replace the existing Sue pages, and doing that would put the focus back on the PPC: more on-topic, less glorifying and/or bashing the non-PPC character.

The reason I haven't brought it up before, though, is that I don't want to do it myself. ^_^; Even if we just did TOS, where I'd suggest we ought to start, that's still 26 articles and a heckton of work, and I'm doing other things already. However, should the community think this is worth doing, and should someone else want to lead the charge, I would certainly help!

~Neshomeh

I would be interested in general overviews of the spinoffs. by Lily Winterwood on 2022-06-09 01:18:46 UTC Reply

Especially in terms of "things added to continuity" that the spinoffs provide.

It's been interesting seeing where certain concepts in the PPC come from during the PPC +20 experience; having that sort of thing put on the wiki could make it easier to find precedent for certain ideas.

The only issue would be that people would have to read all existing spinoffs to see what each one's added to continuity, and that's a herculean task at best.

I could theoretically do my spinoffs. by Huinesoron on 2022-06-09 15:51:18 UTC Reply

At least the major ones - Tales from DOGA, Newbies (DOGA Spinoff), PPC: Driftwood and so on. It wouldn't capture anything like all of my writing - I wouldn't call "Beginnings", my collection of agent backstories, a spinoff - but it would snag some of it.

"Things added to continuity" might be trickier even than you think, though. You don't just have to read the spinoffs - you have to know the order they went up in, down to specific missions! If you only went with a vague "late 2010s", you might think I created snrfs, for example.

hS
We’d have make the spinoff pages one at a time. by Linstar on 2022-06-09 13:05:09 UTC Reply

The best way to eat an elephant is one bite at a time. (Though I’m not sure why anyone would want to eat an elephant.)

And existing authors could make their own spinoff pages—after all, you’ve definitely read what you’ve written.

—Ls

Mmmm... by Kittyauthor on 2022-06-09 13:41:15 UTC Edited Reply

Well, some existing authors might not be able to make their own spin-off pages (and I personally don't see the point of documenting every spin-off that even added a minor thing to the PPC canon, but it probably is personal), or it'll be a Task for them to do so. Like me. I have to set my browser (which I plan on chaning, so I might not even be able to do that anymore) into "desktop site," make the page, hope the network decides to not nope out at that very moment, then hop back into the mobile version of the site and edit the page. Some of the changes apparently don't even stick.

So, there's me, at least, but I have such a small selection of spin-offs that could be important ("Mission 2: Mermaids?", in which O'Ryan describes a cabin more thoroughly into existence, Missions 1 and 2 for David Null, as the former introduces a canon and the latter Sporka is briefly mentioned, and technically Mission 1 for O'Ryan and Kittyauthor, as it introduces a new canon and mini). Or, maybe, aside from very important spin-offs (which would get their own detailed pages), we could "expand" (in a sense) the mission logs for each pair. As in, make a page for pairs of agents and lost their spin-offs, somewhat brief (but less brief than, say, the mission logs or the one-liners on the front page) summaries, and new elements (if any) introduced.

For example, let's look at David Null's first mission:

What happens is that David Null is rudely woken up by Paye and has to have the PPC explained to them. The console BEEPS with a new mission in the Miitopia canon, so the agents get ready and leave. The Stu is an overly generic character who is turned into an uncanonical "Great Mage" by the "gardian spirit," which summons the first ever Mini Terror Fiend. David freaks out, but Paye discovers the Terror Fiend is just a mini. David, Paye, and this new mini follow the Stu through the recruitment of very generic characters and, eventually, into the inn, where gardian steals David's glasses and taunts him. Paye and David have a discussion... etc.

I think I made the point clear? I hope? Something like that? Maybe more brief? But all the summaries for spin-offs listed on a pair's Spin-Off page.

I still can't help a ton because my internet apparently really sucks at times and mobile editing sucks, but I can try. I can redirect people to links to my spin-offs and what I think are the most important aspects added to the PPC.

Does that make any sense?

-kA

Clarification: spin-off = series. by Neshomeh on 2022-06-09 14:47:05 UTC Reply

So, yes, when we're talking about a page for a spin-off, we're talking about a single page that covers every story featuring a particular set of agents.

And on reflection, I do think that's generally a better plan than pages for individual missions, with limited exceptions for big event stories like "Alumia the Woodsprite" and replacing the existing Sue pages, as I said before.

I also support redesigning the Legendary Badfic pages to be more strongly about the missions to them, with the added implication that any Legendary that doesn't yet have a mission (even a partial one) would not have a page. I don't know if there are too many like that, but I suspect there are a few.

~Neshomeh

That sounds like a good proposition, by Sergio Turbo on 2022-06-11 13:01:48 UTC Reply

In fact, I think I had already nuked most of my Suvian pages in the past - I think only the one about "Thunder 2" remains, as I wanted to keep it as it was the first air-to-air kill involving fighter jets in PPC history, and so I thought it was notable enough. But in hindsight, it really isn't. so I'm gonna nuke it pretty much as soon as I post this. Consider my part of the Suvian page cleanup done!

Spinoff name wise I'm good, I've been using "Wings of Canon" for mine for years, and even gave one to Keiko's (Wings of Canon: Second Strike), so when the time comes I'm ready for that as well. Only question to me now is, would Blank Sprite warrant its own page, either as a story or an incident? I'm pretty sure World Without Authors does, as it is a sort of alternate apocalypse timeline (and was included by hS in his multiverse analysis stuff), but Blank Sprite is in that weird place more than a mission, but less than a proper emergency.

Actually... by Sergio Turbo on 2022-06-11 13:22:12 UTC Reply

Looks like I donb't have the authorizations to delete it myself. I've unlinked it from all other pages and deleted all its contents, though, so if someone who can can nuke it I would be happy.

(My old blog post on the wiki can be nuked as well - I have no idea why I posted it here in the first place since it has nothign to do with the PPC)

You’ll have to have an admin do that. by Linstar on 2022-06-11 13:28:24 UTC Reply

Only admins can delete pages. Maybe Nesh or hS can take care of it.

(Also: “donb’t”.)

Alternatively, you could get either of them to give you admin priviledges.

—Ls, who’s an admin on another wiki.

Naming convention pls. by Huinesoron on 2022-06-09 16:00:08 UTC Reply

For myself I'd be happy to go with just the title of the spinoff, plus "([Department] Spinoff)" if there's ambiguity, but I'm not sure that works everywhere. What, to pick a random example, is the title of Tawaki's spinoff? (Maybe the order of preference is: title of spinoff, then RC number, then chief agents.)

How much consistency do we want? I would much prefer to have "Tales from DOGA" and "Driftwood" as pages in their own right, but for consistency do we want something like "Driftwood (Floaters spinoff)" or "Driftwood (Huinesoron spinoff)"? But the latter case falls down with "Tales from DOGA (Huinesoron, Raven Firedragon, Vemi, and Kaitlyn spinoff)" - all of those are featured coauthors, and RF was co-creator.

We could also put them all as sub-pages on Spinoff, so that it would be "Spinoff/Tales from DOGA"; that removes all ambiguity, but I feel like sub-pages aren't easily searchable.

hS

I'd do it like you first said. by Neshomeh on 2022-06-09 16:17:24 UTC Reply

First preference: Spin-off name, e.g. "Tales from DOGA".

Second preference: by response center, e.g. "Response Center 999". (This will cover a lot of ground.)

Third preference: by featured agent(s), e.g. "Tawaki Penguin (spin-off)". (And may I just say dangit, Tawaki, for switching everything around so much—even though that's something I genuinely like about that spin-off. {; P )

2 and 3 may actually have a nearly equivalent preferability. Some spin-off sites give the RC number as their name, some give the agent pairing, and I'd go by what's listed on the site when possible. When in doubt, though, RC numbers tend to be more consistent than featured characters. With some notable exceptions. {; P

~Neshomeh

Okay: first (draft?) spinoff page is up! by Huinesoron on 2022-06-10 09:13:13 UTC Reply

Tales from DOGA, because it's the one I could do off the top of my head.

I've treated "spin-off" as the Wiki technical term (so the new category is "PPC Spin-offs"), but have felt free to use my preferred "Spinoff" in the article itself.

Unusually, I've structured the article with the list of links first. My reasoning is that you're not going to this page for the plot summary - you're going because you want to read the spinoff. For plot details, you're mostly looking for a specific agent, so you'd go to their page. Also, it allows me to use the Spoiler tag on the plot without you having to scroll past it to find the links.

I feel like the structure works, but I'm open to negotiation; and if there's anything else we think needs to be on there, just shout out!

hS

Structure by Neshomeh on 2022-06-10 14:36:42 UTC Reply

What if: Each episode gets its own section with link, timeline/publication info, and synopsis? 'Cause my concept was very definitely that I wanted these pages to answer questions like "which story was the one where X happened?" ^_^;

Also, I don't think most spin-offs have an overall story, per se. At least, mine don't. They have a few character arcs, but they're not aiming at a definite end the same way a TV show is. I can think of a few sentences about recurring themes for each, but I'm not sure how I'd describe the "story" of either. Doesn't help that they're both ongoing, too.

For a not-me example, I don't think TOS works that way, either.

Re. spoilers, I feel like that can be taken for granted, so the pages don't need hats; maybe a single line of text in the lede as a reminder, if anything. Plus, there are other sources for plain links, such as agent pages (which also may contain spoilers by default) and the Complete List of PPC Fiction.

(Also, why go against internal consistency with "spin-off"? It's listed as the primary spelling in any dictionary I look at...?)

~Neshomeh

More responses / restructuring by Huinesoron on 2022-06-17 10:01:06 UTC Reply

I've templated up the article along the lines you suggested, and whoooo-ee that's a lot of sections. It goes down to 3.22.5 now!

I haven't put any summaries in yet, but I'm using the first few sections (down to 'Pain and Regrets') to try out different ways of formatting the sections. I'm not sure what works best, so thoughts welcome.

hS

Hmmm, "Pain and Regrets" is the closest to the format I had in mind. by Lily Winterwood on 2022-06-17 11:41:13 UTC Reply

Something like how episodes are laid out on Wikipedia, though is what I was really thinking of.

So losing the section headers? by Huinesoron on 2022-06-17 13:24:45 UTC Edited Reply

That's perfectly doable - it's pretty much just the Pain & Regrets tables stacked. The big problems is, the more complicated you make a table, the more complicated it is. ^_^ I've chucked in a demo version of the table you linked, up above the summary sections; take a look, and then check out the code. It's not so simple. ^_~ (Also, the style tags don't work on mobile, so the rows are all plain white there. Not a big deal, but not what I was aiming for.)

hS

That table is very shiny. by Neshomeh on 2022-06-17 15:56:12 UTC Reply

But ease of use is definitely a concern. People already feel like editing is Hard Work, and adding more technicality raises any perceived barrier to entry.

That said, Lacksi (per below) probably doesn't need a spin-off page until she actually has a spin-off with more than a couple of episodes, and anything current probably needs referencing less than the enormous backlog of History anyway.

And my train ride is over, so that's all the time I have right now. Will try to reengage with this more later.

~Neshomeh
That's not horrible, code-wise. by Lily Winterwood on 2022-06-17 14:41:38 UTC Edited Reply

I mean, it's not unintuitive; you'd just need to copy-paste the entire block out of the source editor (since I'm not sure if I would trust the visual editor on this), but the way the info is placed it's pretty clear what goes where.

For me, personally, I think a little more finagling on the side of the editor is sometimes necessary for the ease of info access for a reader. Nesh redid the Nursery Children list into a very easy-to-read chart a couple months ago, so now anyone curious enough would know each Nursery kid's parentage and origin mission/interlude. It probably took a long time to cobble together, but the end result is very easy to read and comprehensive.

This chart is helpful since it shows when a thing is published, when in the timeline it falls, who wrote it, what canons are involved, etc -- all information that someone would want when searching for a mission. Thus, I like it!

Out of curiosity, a couple of questions: by Kittyauthor on 2022-06-17 15:29:39 UTC Reply
1. Do you think this would replace the "timeline and blurbs," kinda like what David Null has on his page in the wiki? (As in, would we just link to the timeline, or would it be more of a "Main Article: RC Hyperbola" situation? Not talking about Mission Logs, but the stuff above.)
2. Could I attempt to start my own spinoff page, or should I wait until hS's spinoff page is sorted out? (Probably the latter, but just wanna double check)
Also, I personally think the summary section (the big one before the individual summaries) could reference which events occured in which mission, like how TFWiki has it (on, for example, Doctor Morocco's page)? Maybe? I mean, I personally would find that easier, but I've also been using the TFWiki ~~too much~~ lately and just might be used to that style.

-kA

I'm definitely keeping my timelines. by Huinesoron on 2022-06-17 20:58:50 UTC Reply

My agents all have appearances all over the place; even within the time span of their spinoffs they have random appearances elsewhere. It might work in some cases, but not in others - and of course that's fine, because yeah, none of this is ever gonna be standardised. :)

I like the idea of referencing specific missions in the summary, though again, it's just more work and a higher barrier to actually making an article. But some article is better than none, so it's not like anyone has to do all that parts!

I'll continue working on the DOGA one, so it can be a kind of example of a Big Spinoff Page. So comments and ideas continue to be good!

hS
Answers, maybe? by Lily Winterwood on 2022-06-17 16:32:41 UTC Reply
1. I think an agent timeline is still a good thing to keep on their own page, with maybe a link to a Spin-Off page at the top of their timeline. It would help trim a timeline, though, by putting the mission summaries in the chart. So probably a link to "Main Article: RC Hyperbola", yeah. (Granted, I don't have a timeline section for my agents, though I _do_ have a timeline in my gdocs with what they've been up to, so grain of salt with my opinion, obviously.)
2. I mean, if you just want the information up there and you don't mind fiddling with things, you can go for it. I don't know if the PPC has ever had standardised layouts for anything, honestly :P
I do like the idea of referencing missions in the summary section, too, though I think it's sort of like how we currently use references? For example, hS's agent pages have extensive references. So I guess that one's a bit to each their own on how to undertake it.

Yeah, but... by Huinesoron on 2022-06-17 14:45:59 UTC Reply

... when Lacksidacksical joins the Board in 18 months time, gets Permission, and is told that she Needs To Make A Spinoff Page, is [b]she[/b] going to be able to intuitively understand my cobbled-together table, or is she going to break the Wiki page?

Always consider Lacksi when making plans. :D

hS

Maybe Spin-Off Pages with complicated charts... by Lily Winterwood on 2022-06-17 16:25:14 UTC Reply
... can be saved for Spin-Offs with like... more than 10 missions and interludes? Because that would justify needing a chart to keep things in order. Before that, a simpler setup like the one you have for "Beginnings" could be used, except maybe separate the timeline and published dates into separate bullet points? Like this, maybe:

"Beginnings"
- Author:Huinesoron
- Canon:None
- Timeline:16 Jan 2004.
- Published: 23 Oct 2003 (original) / Jan 2019 (revised).
Agent Dafydd Illian is suspended from the Department of Mary Sues for excessive pyromania. Inspired by an offhand comment by the Sunflower Official, he and the Bonsai Mallorn founded a new department: the Department of Geographical Aberrations.

That way, someone can set up a Spin-Off Page with the easier format to begin with and then once they get into the big numbers they'll probably be used to editing the Wiki enough to do a chart. But that's me wanting all the pertinent info of any given mission to be readily accessible.

~Lily, who realises she's probably just sounding like she's assigning everyone lots of homework and thus is mentally preparing herself to make these sorts of pages for other spin-offs. Like, maybe Tasmin and Emma's?

Yes. This. by Neshomeh on 2022-06-17 18:34:39 UTC Reply

Plus, the sections don't necessarily have to have section headers as such; description lists are great for this sort of thing. (Wikitext for a description list header is a semicolon; it automatically makes the line bold.)

Or, we could potentially even do small infoboxes for the bullet-point stuff. That would cut down on whitespace and isn't too complex to use. I'm confident even Lacksi can do it.

~Neshomeh on break.
I've started my spin-off page with that format-ish by Kittyauthor on 2022-06-17 17:26:16 UTC Edited Reply

Since I don't have more than 5(?) missions, I figured I'd try it without a chart.

Here's the page.

-kA, kinda busy between lunch and some other things.

(Edit: Fleshed it out a bit with the additions of the actual missions, plus one fully-formed entry.)

I dunno, looks pretty good. by Lacksidacksical on 2022-06-17 15:06:01 UTC Reply

(—Actually Ls.)

Responses. by Huinesoron on 2022-06-10 15:03:35 UTC Reply

Sections: That's a very different concept to what I was imagining, huh. It's also a lot more work. Is anyone realistically going to go through Tawaki's spinoff and write a full synopsis for every mission?

An intermediate option might be a table format, with link - timeline - published - summary. (Or, to avoid the Issues with tables, add the summary as a second sub-bullet under the link.)

"Story": Could be called Summary? This is the counterpart to Agent History. It doesn't have to have a cohesive plot, but also doesn't have to go into detail when 'they take several missions into different canons' is the overall plot. TOS would be some expansion of: They take on LotR missions. Over time these get longer, and they interact with HQ more, up to and including a BBQ. Then they get transferred to DIC because Tangled Webs, fumble about a bit there, and move back to DMS. Jay starts getting missions with other agents, and eventually when Acacia retires she is repartnered with Rhus.

Spoilers: See very first point; I was seeing this as somewhere a new reader might land, not as a compilation of all information about the spinoff.

Spin-off: because I think "Spin-off Story" looks clumsy. :-( Acacia used both, in back-to-back sentences no less, but mostly "spinoff".

hS

I like it! by Lily Winterwood on 2022-06-10 11:26:14 UTC Reply

It reads like a page for a series, between the synopsis and the important characters and all of that. My brain's telling me it would be really cool if the links to the spinoffs could be arranged like the episode charts of a TV show from Wikipedia, but I don't know if Fandom offers that sort of functionality with its charts, and it's literally just a cosmetic thing. ~~Might look into it for E and C's spin-off page, then...~~

Agreed! It looks nice. (nm) by Linstar on 2022-06-10 14:00:48 UTC Reply

What if the RC number wouldn't look well in a title? by Kittyauthor on 2022-06-09 16:38:51 UTC Edited Reply

cough All of my RCs cough

Would we (well, could I) have a sort of "preferred nickname" for the RC as the title? The only reason why I ask is both of my spin-offs have the RC number listed as the series name (I can't recall O'Ryan and Kittyauthor's name, but I know it includes the RC number, while David Null's is... well, the formula for your basic hyperbola). Here's what RC Hyperbola's number looks like in one-line: 1 = x²/a² - y²/b²

So, I guess it isn't horrible, but O'Ryan's and soon-to-be-Paye's are gonna be a pain to write as a title of a wiki page (at this point, it's a running gag with all of my agents and IDK if I'll stop, but soon-to-be-Paye's will be the logical extreme and nothing will be more extreme than RC 1(((S1)²/n1)) + ((S2)²/n2))) / (((1/(n1-1))×(((S1)²/n1))²) + ((1/(n2-1))× ((S2)²/n2)²)) = df AKA RC Satterthwaite Formula. That is the longest equation I'll use I promise!). So, I'd prefer if I could, if I don't give Paye and Crow's series a title, if the wiki page is titled RC Satterthwaite Formula rather than... the actual formula.

-kA

(Edit: And by "don't give [them] a title," I mean a title other than the RC number or RC number nickname.)

That sounds like a spinoff title. by Huinesoron on 2022-06-09 17:16:52 UTC Reply

I imagine you'd be delighted if people went "have you read Kittyauthor's RC Hyperbola?", for example.

hS

I would, in fact, be delighted because it's my best spin-off so far lol. by Kittyauthor on 2022-06-09 17:38:59 UTC Reply

Also, to Nesh, it's not like I haven't been labeling mission numbers based off of how many missions David Null has done, anyways. I would've felt a little miffed if you labeled it "David and Paye's Missions" because a) Paye is soon to be not David's partner anymore, and b) you don't have David Null's full name there lol.¹

¹Not that you'd forget David Null's last name normally, but you said "out of spite" and that's the easiest way to make me really wanna fix it.

-kA, not upset.
This is a much better take than mine. {= ) (nm) by Neshomeh on 2022-06-09 17:21:29 UTC Reply

You're asking someone who has never liked "quirky" RC numbers. {= ) by Neshomeh on 2022-06-09 17:16:52 UTC Reply

If it were up to me, I'd call the spin-offs after the main agent(s) purely out of spite and go back to pretending that neither non-numbers nor numbers longer than six characters exist. (And I think numbers longer than four characters are pushing it, too.)

Fortunately, since you're here to make the call for yourself, it's not up to me. {= )

~Neshomeh is kidding about the "spite" bit; she'd do it for usability.

Out of curiosity, what do you think of Mina and Carlisle’s number, !111? (nm) by Linstar on 2022-06-09 17:31:38 UTC Reply

I think it's 1111 with a typo. ^_~ by Neshomeh on 2022-06-09 17:53:13 UTC Reply

(Huh, 1111 is actually available...)

More seriously: How do you pronounce !111, and how do you spell it out in dialogue? "Bang-One-One-One"? "Click-Eleventy-One"? "Eleven-Eleven but the first digit is an exclamation mark"?

But at least it's not too much of a stretch to say that one out loud some kind of way. Getting around Headquarters is tricky enough without needing to take five minutes to explain what your RC is even called. And this works fine in an ICEP address, too.

In sum: It's still a functional label, so I don't hate it. I just don't get the appeal.

~Neshomeh

Oooo! Pronouncing gives me an idea for a future gag! by Kittyauthor on 2022-06-10 01:21:56 UTC Edited Reply

"What the RC number again?" K asked, in an attempt to distract himself.

"Hyperbola," David Null replied.

"Yes, I know that," K said, "but what is the number?"

"Uhhhh," David said. K glared at him. Qnza it. "It's, uh, one equals ex-squared over- no, wait, one equals the quanity of ex-squared over ay-squared minus- no no, wait, one equals y-squared- no, qnzzit-"

"Oh look, we're here," K said, pointing at their RC door.

"Why did you have me shpxing say it, then?!" David asked.

"It's a distraction to listen to you try and say it," K responded. "And you shouldn't curse so often! It's unhealthy, especially around little kids!"

Something like that, but probably funnier, to be honest.

-kA

Ooh, I could do the same! by Linstar on 2022-06-10 14:02:25 UTC Reply

But without any swearing.

I think it’s pronounced either... by Linstar on 2022-06-09 18:47:23 UTC Reply

...”Click-One-One-One” or “Exclamation mark!-One-One-One”. Named ironically after this badfic phenomenon, of course.

Huh, 1111 is available? Maybe I’ll give that to my Troll Division agents.

—Ls, facetiously.

That reminds me, I don't think any of the stuff I've written has a proper spinoff title. by TheBefuddledBookworm on 2022-06-09 17:21:45 UTC Edited Reply

Everything is up on my AO3 account, except the first part of my first mission, which is still in a Google Doc becuse I haven't gotten it up on AO3 yet, with one thing and another.

I absolutely agree with getting rid of Sue pages. by Lily Winterwood on 2022-06-09 15:05:34 UTC Reply

I'd personally want to delete one of the pages made for one of Eledhwen and Christianne's mission targets, for one. At the time I was annoyed that people kept assuming that decent writing meant an OC couldn't possibly be a Sue; now it just feels mean-spirited.

But yes, having a page for each spin-off would be nice. When I mention "things being added to continuity", I don't mean every last detail, but rather bigger things. Like, for example, Derik's spin-off involved a Reality Room that didn't impose solely World One reality but rather reality as defined by his home continuum. That's a pretty important thing in my opinion, since it confirms that there's different Reality Rooms with different takes on the reality contained within. And also, I solidified that in one of my own missions, so there's more than one spin-off using that aspect of the continuity.

I'd say you're free to do what you like with your own stuff. {= ) (nm) by Neshomeh on 2022-06-09 15:36:36 UTC Reply

Gonna file that into my to-do list for the next time I get on an edit spree, then. by Lily Winterwood on 2022-06-09 15:48:02 UTC Reply

Last weekend's planned edit spree got cut off suddenly by an impromptu trip to my students' baseball game.

Wait. That would include My Immortal and Starkit’s Prophecy. by Linstar on 2022-06-09 15:01:44 UTC Reply

Can we just add more about the mission when it happens?

I really don’t want the My Immortal page deleted.

—Ls

"My Immortal" has its very own wiki, dude. {X D by Neshomeh on 2022-06-09 15:48:09 UTC Reply

And I know you know that very well. {= ) So how come it needs a page on PPC Wiki, too?

THAT SAID, I'm not seriously suggesting we should delete it. It doesn't make sense to do that unless we also do rewrites on all the other Legendaries, and I don't see that happening any time soon. Plus, in this specific case, it's practically a byword for "the worst fanfiction ever" and gets referenced often enough in PPC stories that there is a case for having our own take on it. The current page isn't really about that, though. That could stand to change...

~Neshomeh

Well, if that does change, I’ll have to remove the page from the by Linstar on 2022-06-09 16:50:15 UTC Reply

My Immortal Wiki’s Related Websites page. (Three guesses as to who added it.)

—Ls

Oops sorry. by Kittyauthor on 2022-06-09 14:55:56 UTC Reply

I honestly thought spin-off=mission for some reason. The more you know, I guess lol.

I also support redesigning Legendary Badfic pages.

-kA, kinda busy rn, but still somewhat around.

I think so. by Linstar on 2022-06-09 13:57:17 UTC Reply

Brief mission summaries. Yeah, that’d be good.

I think that's a good idea! by Kittyauthor on 2022-06-08 17:30:43 UTC Reply

Alas, mobile editing sucks, so I probably won't be the best help, but I can try!

I was going to say something along the lines of "first mentions shouldn't make the whole mission get a page," but then I reread what you said. You said missions that covered significant events, not every mission that first mentions something.

Question: What is considered a "significant event?" The first mission in a canon? Or maybe just the really important stuff, like the Canon Keys stuff? Or stuff inbetween, like the first showing of a Suvian Spirit type?

Also, what would happen to the Legendary Badfic pages? And... there's another thing, but I forgot. I'll probably remember mid-rehearsal or something lol.

On a semi-related topic, should "World Without Suvians" get its own wiki page? It's an important event inan alt. timeline, I think?

-kA

In my view... by Linstar on 2022-06-08 18:08:50 UTC Reply

Stuff like “Ring Child”, already sorta has a page...so maybe notability is up to the mission’s author? I dunno, but TOS pages would be a must.

I imagine we could just expand the “mission” section of the Legendaries.

I think WWS deserves its own wiki page. I mean, the Arthurverse has one, and I’d put it in the same category. Though I might wait till the WWS interlude is posted.

—Ls

I like this! by Linstar on 2022-06-08 14:39:35 UTC Reply

I don’t know if “lead the charge” is something I could do, but I like the idea of going from Sue pages to spin-off pages. I could definitely do so with my own spin-offs.

Good idea, Nesh.

—Ls

1. I personally wouldn't, and 2. I personally don't want to. by Kittyauthor on 2022-06-08 14:15:39 UTC Edited Reply

With the forst point, the fanfic might be bad because some random troll edited the fanfic and no one reversed the edit. I feel uncomfy with tackling a fanfic on a wiki page because anyone can easily edit it. With Quotev or FF.net, you don't have that issue. It's one author and consistently so. Any fanfic on thay wiki could be a collaberation between almost all members of the wiki, and I rather not tick off a fandom for sporking something.

With your selection of your first mission, it is preserved there for archive reasons (like My Immortal). The way you're describing this wiki, it's a fanfic hosting site, not an archive. Several members might have contributed to one fic. They might have quality standards. It just... makes me uncomfy to attack a fic on the official wiki that isn't there for archival reason.

As for 2, putting those might add strain to the wiki? And, again, the wiki is highly editable. Sure, we can protect those pages, but it makes me kinda on edge. Again, the wiki is highly editable (is there a way to not allow anyone to edit except admins?), so it makes me kinda nervous.

As for my personal stories, no. The wiki is not very friendly to me, and it has been acting up even more recently (like me trying to add categories to the Sporkmal page). I would just have trouble creating the page and probably editing my mission to work in source edit mode, because I know I'll have difficultly pasting rich text into the visual editor.

These are, of course, my personal opinions. I'm not intending to be harsh, but I think 1, at least, is a Bad Idea.

-kA

On page protection by Neshomeh on 2022-06-08 14:42:43 UTC Reply

Yes, pages can be protected so only admins can edit them. I don't especially love the idea of having to do that for a whole bunch of pages, though, particularly in cases where the actual author might still be active.

Also, you can always look at a page's edit history to see who has contributed what. It's very transparent. It wouldn't be hard to spot a troll or a community collab, so I disagree that that poses a problem. Plus, if a wiki has decided to act as a public fanfic hosting site for some reason, then I don't personally see any reason we should treat it differently from any other public fanfic hosting site. *shrug*

But I still don't think it's a good idea for us to do that.

~Neshomeh

A few more wiki-related comments... by Linstar on 2022-06-08 21:46:32 UTC Reply

*Why don’t we have pages for Author!Jay and Acacia? We have them for other inactive Boarders.

*Why do we note, on continuum pages, whether agents are specialized in a continuum? It doesn’t appear to be noted in-universe.

*Only admins can edit Achievement Badges, so I can’t change those. (I believe Nesh and I’ve discussed this before.)

—Ls

Some answers. by Huinesoron on 2022-06-09 11:34:06 UTC Reply
- Because nobody's made them. Bear in mind a lot of "inactive authors" were active at the time their pages were made; the Wiki has been around for a decade or more. If you decide to work on this, Jay was also known as Otik, HarpWire, and Wunderlust; Acacia has no official PPC aliases (just a slip for what might be her real name in one mission).
- I think the theory is that if you want to do a mission into you don't know, you could look at the continuum page and find an agent whose author you could ask to cowrite. I dunno, I've never used it.
- I think I set most of the badges up; is there a problem with them? The system isn't, or wasn't, very versatile; I think it was limited just to "X edits in Y category" at the time I did them. [Checks] In fact they've even removed the option to add badges; all we can do is change the pictures and names of what's already there, and disable/enable the Agents and Flowers tracks. So what was it you were looking to change?
hS

‘Kay, thanks, hS. by Linstar on 2022-06-09 13:13:21 UTC Reply

*Ah, that would explain it. I’ll probably at least make stubs for both of them.

*I think I get what you mean, but I still think it’s arbitrary and unnecessary.

*I think some of the badges are still generic—though I admittedly haven’t edited and earned as many badges as I could have.

—Ls
I think that's how I ended up cowriting with EileenAlphabet once. by Lily Winterwood on 2022-06-09 12:58:21 UTC Reply

Eledhwen and Christianne were basically the only ones specialising in BBC Sherlock in around 2012~2014, and EileenAlphabet had a Sherlock/Twilight crossover, so naturally our agent teams worked together on that one.

Honestly, I barely remember writing that mission, haha.

I suppose that makes sense. by Linstar on 2022-06-09 13:08:34 UTC Reply

But “we have to take a special note if an agent has five missions in this continuum” feels rather...arbitrary. I don’t think it’s something that needs to be noted; EileenAlphabet could’ve just seen “those two have a lot of Sherlock missions”. I still think it’s arbitrary and unnecessary.

—Ls

I'm planning to redo those sections. by Neshomeh on 2022-06-09 14:33:47 UTC Reply

I guess you might not have been here yet when I proposed arranging Missions in This Continuum sections by when the missions are set in HST. Nobody objected, and I very much want to, because the way it is now creates redundancies and doesn't seem to be especially helpful to anyone.

There's a bottleneck, though: identifying when all the stories are set in HST. I've done it for Harry Potter, and once I'm done going down the list to spot minor characters and minis that appear in each one (another thing I'm doing), I will do the reordering, but it's gonna take time.

I plan to do The Lord of the Rings next, seeing as it's the other biggest list. But, again, it's gonna take time.

If anyone wants to help, feel free to pick a continuum and start adding dates in HST, just like I've done on the HP page. {= )

~Neshomeh

Oh, I missed that. by Linstar on 2022-06-09 14:40:15 UTC Reply

Yeah, just a month or so before I arrived. I’ll see what I can do with that. Good idea, by the way.

—Ls

Cheers! (nm) by Neshomeh on 2022-06-09 15:50:28 UTC Reply

That is a good point. (nm) by TheBefuddledBookworm on 2022-06-08 23:11:47 UTC Reply

You have a point. by Linstar on 2022-06-08 14:32:31 UTC Reply

As for Point One, you’re right, some are totally collaborations; including one I created a page for. And if someone can edit...yeah, you have a good point there.

As for Point Two, I wasn’t suggesting that it be obligatory. I was thinking more “Preserve critical PPC texts on the wiki itself”, not “we all must post on the wiki now”. I’m not sure how doing so would “add strain to the wiki”.

And it is completely possible to restrict editing to admins. In fact, the Ghost of You source text is protected in such a way.

I would like to be able to post my own missions on there, but with a link to the authoritative version elsewhere. Which could be optional. You, Kittyauthor, would be under no obligation to.

—Ls, who’s waiting on Nesh’s two cents.