Subject: On strong agents.
Author:
Posted on: 2012-06-29 21:48:00 UTC
Agents don't need to be strong in order to defeat a Sue. More often than not, said Sue is outwitted and/or hoist by their own petard.
Just mentioning that. Also, if the agents are too good at their job, things are going to get boring soon.
Hello!
My name is Jack. I have been reading fanfiction for a while and recently started writing. I have long been annoyed by marry sues, bad slash, and so forth for a while. Recently, I found the Avatar OFU; I followed that back to the PPC. I would like to join, perhaps the DMS, ESAS or floaters and write missions. Please advise.
Hello, and greetings! Have a Holy Hand Grenade!
If you want a role-model of what NOT to do, look at posts involving me!
Good luck in the PPC wiki!
Hi Jack! Do you now how many things the name/word jack can mean? It could be an object used for raising things short distances, or a playing card, or a connecting device in an electrical circuit, or a name, or it could be short for jackdaw, which is a type of bird. Or jackrabbit. I'm going on a tangent aren't I? Oh well, the PPC isn't really known for sanity.
So, back on topic. Welcome to the PPC! Please check out the links above, they contain helpful things like our rules and guides. One doesn't actually become an agent but after a certain amount of time you can apply for Permission and write stories about agents. If/when you get it you can get rid of all those awful Sues that marry everyone.
So as traditional, I shall give to you a gift to welcome you to the PPC. Drum roll please.
*ratatatatatatatat*
SPaG candy! Everybody likes candy, but no one likes spelling /punctuation/grammar mistakes so it's a win/win situation. It'll clear up the redundancy and capitalization errors instantaneously. Ta ta for now!
I have looked through the wiki, and it is very funny, and I figured out the PPC's lack of sanity fromthe "BAD IDEA" section. Thank you for the candy.
Hi, have some fudge!
Welcome to the PPC new newbie! I should report you to the Department of Redundancy Department, but I'll let it slide because this is your first infraction. As a welcome gift, have a propeller cap; it'll take you wherever you need to go, as long as it's not in a building or underground.
Welcome. Always good to have another Wheel of Time fan in the group, though I disagree with your assessment of the amount of badfic in the fandom. There is quite a lot of it.
Anyway, we recently resurrected a program that allows Newbies, that's you, access to a guide and mentor. This gives them a specific source of information, as well as a link to a more experienced PPCer.
So, head on over to this page, pick a house, and let us know (a reply to this comment will work) which one you choose. After that, your Big Sib should be along shortly.
-Phobos
Could you link me some of it? I'd like to spork it once I have some experience.
First off, bad crack fic: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/8186405/1/ReverseWheel - In which the Dark One uses a literal reset button to send everyone back to the beginning of the series. The button is then eaten by a Mini. But wait...everyone gets to remember everything, keep any items they had collected, and also the Asha'man are still around. Probably a troll.
More of the same: <a href="http://www.fanfiction.net/s/7863010/1/TheWheelofCheese">http://www.fanfiction.net/s/7863010/1/TheWheelofCheese - It is called "The Wheel of Cheese". Do I even have to get into why it is bad? It claims to be a parody, but there is nothing of the original evident in it. Hopefully a troll.
Very probably a Mary Sue (I've only looked at the first chapter): <a href="http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3341636/1/YoungestChanneler">http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3341636/1/Youngest_Channeler - The story of a girl who learns that she can channel, despite the fact that she is less than half the age at which the spark usually manifests (which the author notes several times). For reference, this is equivalent to a child hitting puberty at age 5 (which is her age, coincidentally). The title is even "The Youngest Channeler". More than likely a Sue.
It is there. All you need do is look for it. I skipped several that were too short to get a real read of whether they were truly bad. They seemed well on their way, though.
-Phobos
oh. I see. I see what you are saying (starts loking for a spork)
Read our rules.
Hello Newbie. I was wondering, have you read Warbreaker? I was considering a Lifeless agent, then remembered I'd given a character a fear of zombies, which she wouldn't let me take away.
The thing about the Mistborn is that they are going to win if there is metal about. It might be interesting to have your character only be able to burn one metal or have limited supplies. That way the agent can't simply rely on one skill.
I have read all of Sanderson's published work, so yes, I have. The reason that I was thinking mistborn was if I wasn’t to go into ESAS, He/she would need strong magic. Also, I can envision a lot of ways the laws of narrative comedy could affect allomancy. Besides, the agent would only have as much metal as he brought with him from HQ. Same thing with the Radiant agent, he would have limited stormlight in the same manner.
I could not think of a tl;dr for this: please bear with me. This continuity is near and dear to my heart, and as such I am delighted with the idea of agents from it. As such, I couldn't help but give this as much thought as I could.
'Wow' I: yay, Sanderson fan! I'll admit to not having read everything by him--haven't read the short works or Alloy of Law yet, and I refuse to touch Wheel of Time with a Standard Adventurer's Ten Foot Pole, but he is one of my three favorite authors, at least in genre.
'Wow' II: I'll attempt not to use spoilers here, but we shall see.
1: Mistborn) Mistborn have special cloaks that tell people walking past them, especially at night, "Hey ho a Mistborn passes here." It's as much a warning as any Scalloped Bat-Cape throwing a shadow in the dead of night, giving the heads "and some Bat-operative, the Man himself or not, will stop All Crime Found Here." Noble houses covet Mistborn. Hell's bells, they covet any kind of Allomancer. Allomancers can seem very common in the books, but remember that we are following a group specifically gathered to be a combat strike team of Allomancers, and against groups which similarly gather them. Consider the non-nobles/government/Kelsier-gathered population: the numbers of Allomancers are much lower, let alone Mistborn.
Mistborn are a commodity. They are precious. Unless in a situation with many of noble houses are in attendance--and we know how few people are actually in noble houses--very few people will actually see more than one Mistborn at a time in their whole lives. Kelsier and Vin are The Notable Exceptions To The Rule, as they should be by being PCs.
Besides, as far as being Mistborn goes, if I am not mistaken by Alloy of Law being Mistborn proper is not something that really happens anymore. Twinborn seems to be slightly more common than Mistborn had been in Vin's time, though still quite a bit rarer than single-metal Allomancers or Feruchemists.
Addendum: um, having only the metal brought from HQ is... not a limitation. Any Allomancer or Mistborn only has as much metal as he's brought with him on any given excursion, or else that he scrounges up between resupplying, and the latter can be dangerous. That isn't a Special Limitation, that's just life as usual. Besides, a lot of Agents carry bags, or even Bags of Holding. You could dump a LOT of Allomancy metal in there. Not the best sell on that one.
2: Radiant) There used to be many. They are, however, figures of legend, and being a Shardbearer is incredibly rare. Remember what some of the lengths gone to obtain them are, and how high the value stakes of what people have given up or demanded in exchange for a Shardeblade or Shardplate armor is. I'm specifically remembering the truly poignant incident towards the end, regarding the fate of a platoon. Radiants are currently legends, and one reason several characters in that book are so visibly pivotal is because of the implication that they are Radiants, which haven't been seen in... a very long time, possibly centuries, that I do not recall off the top of my head.
Beyond that, we don't actually know yet how Stormlight works, thanks to Sanderson's brilliant ability to have us learn along with the characters how their magic works. I'd hesitate to make a ruling on use of it in any direction until that is elucidated; at best I'd say "He gets a supply brought with him from home but it will run out if used." After all, we have no reason to believe at this point that Stormlight is found outside that universe, or even on that particular planet (as we have seen no indication of it in the other three worlds of that continuity).
Even if there were thousands of Radiants once, consider how many people are in the Stormlight world. There feel to be far, far more, population-speaking, than in Elantris or Mistborn (though Warbreaker feels to have rather a lot too). Even if by numbers this were more comparable to, as you have liked bringing up, the Harry Potter population ratios: They are integrated into society, and remember, the prologue tells us they were practically worshiped.
'Wow' III: Based on your reply below, which I will respond to here: you've gone about this the wrong way.
From section 1 on Mistborn, we can conclude an Allomancer (or, depending on when/where the character is from, a Feruchemist) is special, but only in the HP Wizard sense. Twinborn are rather more so, more like Special, but arguably (given the state of Scadriel by the time of Alloy) in the sense of the lead PCs of HP.
However, Mistborn are Special Snowflakes.
From section 2, we can conclude Radiants are Super Special Snowflakes. No, really.
All that said? I cannot in good conscience say "Ahahaha no uberoverpowered" off the top, not least because I've had at least one agent on that scale. (Well, theoreticallyI do: I have a bad habit of not writing. Oopsherpderp.) It is easily possible to write an agent with remarkable powers and special backstory, and possible powers to go with it--Makari's Samuel, for instance, or the even more obvious Dafydd. In the former case, this was nicely underplayed; in the latter, he paid for it hard in spades by the end. It can be done. It just takes care.
However--and this is the big 'however'--for those two (as with most of the best Agents we've had) having the powers wasn't the reason to construct a character, it was part of character development. Your problem is that you're thinking the powers explicitly for the sheer sake of Being Specially Awesome. Remember the original Agents were just plain human.
Referencing the thread below to which I first responded: you said you were thinking only in terms of 'personality traits,' but actually it was SingingTheThunder who suggested personality traits. You did not. You asked for ideas for personalities for two characters with powers. That advice you took, and then back-pedaled asking for powers for a personality someone else had suggested. You hadn't even thought of it yourself. Even that idea, of 'a slightly cracked Mistborn who forgets about his powers' is still focusing on the Allomancy, not on the Agent.
This is not a good way to construct any character, Agent, fic, or original work. You can make those overpowered characters work--I'd still say hold off on the Radiant, too little information and too high a status in Roshar's mythology--but don't think about the powers. Think about what kind of person would be interesting to read about, what kind of person would be entertaining to challenge and make jokes with. Either the powers will come naturally or they won't.
The right touch could manage it. As you're currently approaching it, I would caution against doing so.
(A brief appendix: Dude, you just hopped on board. Kick back, relax, get to know us and learn better how we work--and how our style writing works and how our Agents click. Making Agents comes in a little while. Don't think about it now. Let ideas bubble, let them brew, let them steep into a richer solution. Let the excitement ease up into something slightly less volatile.)
I gave up on this one. You are right. I'm a newbie with delusions of grandeur.
No one said that. You are a newbie, yes, but you don't have delusions of grandeur. What you do have is an urge to jump into the pool before learning how to swim.
Read some missions, talk to people, and get to know us. Don't be so quick to give up. Like Fractal Dawn said, over powered characters CAN work, but it takes caution and care to make sure they aren't Sues or Stus.
Agents don't need to be strong in order to defeat a Sue. More often than not, said Sue is outwitted and/or hoist by their own petard.
Just mentioning that. Also, if the agents are too good at their job, things are going to get boring soon.
Good point. Should agents have any power beyond normal human at all?
No.
You've already said more than enough here to make it clear that you should not have agents that have powers at all.
"Well, the ESAS handels the really bad Warrior! and GOD MODE!Sues, so your agents can have pretty strong combat cabailites, so thats one thing."
Your interest in ESAS, as stated here, isn't in what it does, but what it allows you to do- which is have powerful characters.
"I'm working on a few agents, a mistborn agen from the mistborn trilogy, a shardbeared/Knight Radiant from Stormlight archives, and Asha'man from Wheel of time, and some others."
Asha'man, for those not in the know, can access the 'male' side of magic in the WoT 'verse. It then proceeds to corrupt the unpleasantly and drive them insane in bad ways if they use it too much. This is something of a Stu alert.
Mistborn, for those who haven't read Brandon Sanderson at all yet, are ridiculously powerful and/or ridiculously rare. In the time period of the Mistborn trilogy, Mistborn are very rare; their counterparts who can use only a single metal are more common, and even then they aren't everywhere either. Mistborn are able to influence emotions, propel themselves through the air, and make themselves super-strong and fast, among other things.
I cannot state with regards to the Shardbeared/Knight Radiant whatever since I've not yet read.
So, again, no.
(1 I saw an empty niche, and I took it. Its stuff I want to do (I assumed strong dislike/hatred of sues was assumed) and I like the fringe benefits.
(B Part the first: Read. Book. Nine. Part the second, it appered that all PPC agents were mad.
(III They aren't that powerful compared to a magic user of the same rairty in a lot of other magic systems (i.e. One Power, Harry Potter Magic, Generic Fantasy Wizzard etc.)
Let me just say that, as someone who has read the Wheel of Time multiple times over, roughly, 13 years, I really really REALLY think you need to re-evaluate what an Asha'man is.
"Part the first: Read. Book. Nine." Done that. Multiple times. Doesn't make the idea of having a living weapon around any more palatable. See, taking that away doesn't make them less dangerous. There are two choices in this case: 1) Pre-Book-9, where they go crazy and potentially lay waste to a large area with lots of fire and explosions that react to their every broken thought. 2) Post-Book-9, where they are still a living weapon with fire and explosions at their fingertips and lots of training to use it to solve ALL their problems.
"Part the second, it appered that all PPC agents were mad." The problem is that you seem to think all madness is equal. It isn't. Someone whose insanity manifests as them breaking down into tears at the first hint of bad grammar, is one thing. Someone who permanently loses all grasp of reality and goes on a killing spree, is quite another. Please refer to the article on Insanity.
While I am here, please also check out the page about PPC Badfic.
-Phobos
I've conceded that point, and all the others that you people have made.
I am open to sugestions about better, more balanced agents.
I also get the point about sue/stu agents.
Any Ideas?
0.) You should work on your spelling.
It's, not its.
Appeared, not appered.
Rarity, not rairty.
Wizard, not wizzard.
1.) If you see an empty niche, stop for a moment and ask yourself why it's empty. And what exactly are these fringe benefits?
B.) I haven't read the book, so I don't know about the canon. But true insanity is actually something PPC agents try to stave off. With Bleeprin and other stuff. (Not to be confused with Stuff.) Being a bit odd, maybe a bit loopy is okay, but outright insanity in the way that July described... no.
III.) Again, I can't say anything about how powerful these guys are, but we're not here to compare the length of our sticks or the strength of our kung-fu. If your guy's super special awesome and wins his stuff through his super special awesomeness, you should think about it twice.
There's no yes or no to that question. They can, but these powers should be handled reasonably. They shouldn't be easy plot devices. After all, what do you do when your agent's not human to begin with? Just... don't make your agents speshul. You'll get the gist of it soon enough.
What if those powers are not speshul in their home worlds? Mistborn make up a (small) precentge of the nobility in the final empire and an oddly large percentage of the illegitimate children of said nobles. In Stormlight archives, there were thousands of knights in each order of the Knights Radiant. once... (Tumbleweed rolls across screen)
Mistborn are special. They're unique and powerful. Don't try to pretend otherwise to get what you want.
Sounds good. I've never actually been able to find the first book of the Stormlight Archive, but have read all the Mistborn.
So you would aprove my Sanderson agent Pair?
If so,think you could any hints on personality or anything?
I can't say about the Stormlight one, but I think a slightly cracked Mistborn, similar to Kelsier, Zane or with trust issues like Vin at the start would be good.
It would be best for the character to be one of the nobility, as it was more likely for their powers to be discovered. If your character was say arrogant and thought they could do anything, then were constantly proved wrong, that would be amusing, especially if paired with an agent who relies a bit too much on common sense and expects everything to work logically.
You could go the opposite way and have a character who underestimates their power or forgets they have it (e.g not eating metal, not looking out for bits of metal to use).
On the subject of a partner it might be amusing to pair them with for example a werecreature, who is vulnerable to silver. Really you could give them any personality, but try to pick ones that cause tension when they meet.
I'll go into this in more detail above, but as a quick note:
Kelsier, Vin, and Zane are Super Special Lead PCs. That is not necessarily the tone you want to strike with an Agent. It is possible. Again, I'll go into this in more detail above.
In retrospect Zane and Kelsier's personalities really aren't suitable and with Vin at the beginning she's barely able to function.
I was mostly trying to think of ways not to let a Mistborn just be speshul.
It would make more sense for a character to just be an Allomancer, something 'simple' like iron or steel would be better than tin, pewter, zinc or brass. Bronze would be useless in a different continuum, but copper could be useful as it protects against emotional Allomancy and potentially the Aura of Smooth, which would make it harder, but not impossible for the agent to be Sued.
Yes, I'm just talking about those personality traits. I think that they would be somewhat funny, if I can work them right.
For a misting/twinborn agent which metal(s) would you sugest?
most likly going with the cracked one who forgets about his powers, as this could lead to some amusing situtiations.
Welcome to the Board! Have some of my hydrophobic water to commemorate the event. Totally not related to our other fine K-Blooee Industries product, Instant Explodium.
Have you read the Original Series yet? If not, go and check it out at: http://www.misssandman.com/PPC/story.html
It's awesome, I can guarantee it.
I have been following the PPC for a month, and have read the original series. It’s epic. I personally enjoy OFUs as well. I am currently working on an agent pair. One is a mistborn, meaning he eats metals to gain various powers (i.e. Push/Pull metal, Emotions, Boost strength/ senses etc.) The other is a Knight radiant, with some gravitational manipulations. They would probably be ESAS or heavy duty assassins.
It's nice to meetcha! I'd say more, but I'm too ill to spend ages staring at this screen. Ow my head.
So yeah, welcome! Have a cake that's not cooked properly!
Hello and welcome to the PPC!
Hmmm...let me see...ah! Have a random, small, gold key. Don't ask me what it opens, though - but you never know when it might come in useful.
Good luck!
Eugh, it really does get annoying when the Mary Sues try to marry their lust objects. Especially when said lust objects are... say... Aragorn. Say it with me... Ar-wen E-ven-star! (Or if they're Faramir. Eowyn* exists, thank you!)
The general advice for newbies who want to write missions is stick around for a month or so, join in on conversations, make yourself a face people recognize so the Permission Givers know who you are. Use the time to create an agent or two and make a writing sample, it's what I'm doing. The sneakily applied link should have all the information one could need on the whys and hows of Permission.
Anyway, newbie gift time. -fumbles through bag- Here, have a spork I filched from the Cafeteria.
*What's the alt code for a capital é?
Yes, that creates nasty cannon entanglements.
I'm working on a few agents, a mistborn agen from the mistborn trilogy, a shardbeared/Knight Radiant from Stormlight archives, and Asha'man from Wheel of time, and some others. Don't know which I will go with
It really sucks when your cannons get entangled. It's impossible to get off a decent shot then. Tangled cannons is definitely up there on the irritation scale with Mary Sues marrying canon characters.
~Neshomeh
Is it anything like when your Schwartz get twisted?
Not having one and all. I hear it's quite unpleasant. Still, there's an upside and a downside to every Schwartz, so I guess you have to take the bad with the good.
^_^
~Neshomeh
Greetings, new friend!
Oho, the Eclectic Subdivision of Advanced Species? They don't get much screen time anymore! It's good to see some new attention on that front. What about the ESAS interested you?
Sounds like you're an Airbender fan. What are some of your other fandoms, for reading about or writing? And what sorts of stories do you like best?
Marry Sues? That would be annoying! Just ask Legolas. :)
I have three new ESAS missions in the works. Main problem is I'm trying to catch up on five years of in-universe time, so it's a protracted exercise.
Elcalion, tardy in his writing
Well, the ESAS handels the really bad Warrior! and GOD MODE!Sues, so your agents can have pretty strong combat cabailites, so thats one thing. I really like Wheel of Time, but that is a very small fandom, despite its popularity, and has very little badfic, due to the fact that it is not very fangirl-attractive. Also, the Stormlight Archives (Brandon Sanderson) is a favorate of mine, but it is only on the first (thousand page) book of 10, and dosn't have a fandom yet.
Yeah, hi, welcome. What are your fandoms? Also, as Tira advised, it's a good idea to read the wiki. Not to mention pretty entertaining sometimes.
Last but not least, your newbie gift: a cup of tea. Just mind the leaves, they might try to eat you.
Thank you, I have read the wiki, and its hilarious. Thanks for the tea, I will drink with care.
Fandoms: Harry Potter, Avatar, Wheel of time (popular series, but very small fandom, with very little badfic.)
Hi, Jack! I'm not exactly what you would call an experienced member, but I think I can answer some of your questions. Generally, you can't start writing missions right away. You have to hang around for a while, so that you know how everything works here. I'd check out the "Getting Permission" page on the wiki.
Random question: is the Avatar OFU for A:TLA, or the James Cameron movie?
Yes, I've read that. I was talking about OFUA:TLA
Ah, cool! I'm a big Avatar fan myself, so I'll have to check it out sometime.
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/7705334/1/TheSapphireFlame
This is a pretty good avatar story. Its Azulaang, but its actually well writen and I didn't see much OOC.