Re: LOL.

Subject: Re: LOL.
Author: Data Junkie
Posted on: 2012-05-14 08:02:00 UTC

For the record, I wasn't saying that he wasn't allowed to do anything. I was simply saying that I was no longer comfortable being involved with this storyline, which I admitted was probably a moot point, and saying why. And asking to use the Message so that I could explain (in-story, at least) why no references to this would appear in my work. What I was avoiding saying outright is that this is a lot darker than I'd expect from the PPC. Counting both this and the previous story in the trilogy, we have: An agent being drugged against her will or knowledge, an agent going insane and killing several flowers, an innocent(seemingly, at least) agent being sent to certain death, and an innocent (again, seemingly) tree being banished to a place where he will likely never see a single being he ever knew.

Admittedly, I have not read much else of hS' work, beyond the DoGA stuff, so this kind of tone may be par for the course for his more serious works. If that's true, though, I think I'll continue not reading them.

I will admit that I could have phrased my previous post better. Probably this one too. I apologize if I have inadvertently offended you or your husband.

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A less volatile plug. by Huinesoron on 2012-05-12 01:46:00 UTC Reply

Behind The Times

A conversation between five less-used Flowers.

hS

Okay. SO: Royal Swan PLUG. by Huinesoron on 2012-05-14 02:47:00 UTC Reply

Here's hoping it meets a better reception than its predecessor...

SO: Royal Swan

(The observant will note that I have changed the title. I feel this one better reflects the story)

In addition, I've written an author's note for the whole trilogy. It contains mild spoilers, but also tries to answer the question of "What in the name of the One is hS doing?".

White Swans and Black

Thirdly and finally... I'm currently considering removing the cowrite aspect of PPC: Flight Of Swans, for two reasons:

1/ I don't really have the temperament for cowrites. They make me nervous.

2/ I don't think it's working. I'd thought - hoped - that what I had here was an idea and a Message that would prompt people to do something creative, to show off their agents at their silliest. Instead, what I seem to have done is brought out the realistic side of the PPC. And that's okay, in that I'm positive those /are/ the reactions the various agents would give - but a story consisting of alternating 'Yeah, I know, so what?' and 'I don't think this is a real message'... isn't a story.

So I don't know. Given the nature of the Message, and in keeping with the end of White Swans and Black, I'm tempted to just use my own agents for Flight, and let anyone who's had their imagination captured by the Message use it to further their own story, rather than simply tack it onto one of mine.

Or maybe I'm overthinking it. Thoughts?

hS

Aw man. by Ellipsis Flood on 2012-05-14 09:27:00 UTC Reply

Now I'm in a dilemma. I'd like to use the message in my stories, but the DIO is funny too. And I really don't like cherry picking things.

Also, I think I'd like to post my message thing as part of something else I wrote, simply because it ties in with another thing I wrote.

The thing here is... by Huinesoron on 2012-05-14 11:45:00 UTC Reply

... the DIO is and has always been mine. I never intended to let anyone else use it - it's way too dangerous (note that its sole purpose is to kill PPC characters, which, er, yes) - and I don't intend to use it again. Since no PPC agents should ever have been aware of the existence of the DIO, I'm not sure what you'd be cherry-picking.

hS

About DIO by the Irish Samurai on 2012-05-14 18:07:00 UTC Reply

I thought I remembered seeing something on the Wiki about a Department that wasn't for use by everyone, and had a vague feeling that it might have been one of yours, but wghen I went and checked I couldn't find any evidence for that.

The reason that I mention this is that in my Permission Request (a week or so back), I said that one of my agents was a former DIO member, and had been neuralyzed upon leaving. I'd been intending on doing at least some character development interludes involving the DIO (and generally about the past that my agent had been made to forget).

I would have contacted you for permission/guidance before doing anything involving the DIO directly, seeing as it is very different from DMS, Bad Slash, etc., but presumably you'd prefer it if I simply removed this aspect of the character?

Hmm. by Huinesoron on 2012-05-14 18:53:00 UTC Reply

I'm not entirely sure they even do that (Peter strongly implies his previous partner died, and there don't appear to be any other members of the DIO out there), and if they did they'd do a very thorough job - their whole existence is a secret, since a) they kill agents and b) that kind of sounds like the DIS, who aren't exactly popular in these parts.

I guess it depends what you planned on doing. When I say I'm keeping a tight grip on the DIO, I meant mostly their missions. See... [Ramble]

The DIO was created years ago when we had an influx of people on the Board who said 'Hi, I'm InsertNameHere, and here's my PPC story! It's about Agent Sparklypuff of the Department of Awesome (kewl huh>??!) who is the best agent ever!'. The DIO was a response to that - and never ended up being used for that purpose, since the trend stopped before I got them running.

Since then they've kind of been a looming shadow. At the end of the day, they kill PPCers - and if the mood of the Board swings against someone's fic (the way people have been talking about Tawaki, say) there's a very real chance someone could decide to take the DIO out and kill that agent. That's what they were originally for - but I'm glad it never happened.

Add to that the fact that they blatantly don't do their job (they have missed every single Badficfest to date), and the fact that the Elm is both Speshul (it lives outside) and just creepy... I don't like them as a department. Every time they go on a mission they do bad things to the PPC (and don't tell me that if I walked in here today and said 'I'd like to start a department for killing Agents!' I'd have a chance in Mandos of being allowed).

The best part of the DIO is and always has been Justin - and if you're reading, Data, don't worry about him. He's not going to die in Dwarf Fortress: as soon as I get round to doing it, he's getting a picture-story reprieve. I picture him moving in with Undis Closed 'somewhere in the mountains of New Caledonia'. His name even fits! [/Ramble]

So yeah: it depends what you were planning. Flashbacks with Justin, possibly Peter, and the Elm: yes. Present-day fics with any of them - no, since they'd never allow themselves to contact him anyway. Present-day fics with Nita, I'd probably say okay - I don't plan on doing anything else with her.

(And if you do do it, Justin on his return may come by for a chat...)

hS

Re: Hmm. by the Irish Samurai on 2012-05-14 22:54:00 UTC Reply

I'm not 100% sure what you're referring to when you say you're not sure they 'even do that', but I think you mean neuralyzing former members (if I'm wrong, this next bit probably won't make any sense). That actually came from a line of Peter's dialogue in New Recruit, where, after Nita acknowledges having seen MiB, he says 'Good. Then you'll understand the concept of a job you are not allowed to leave without being dead or having your memory wiped. This is one of those jobs.'

I'd thought about using the whole DIO/secret keeping thing as a backdrop for some character interactions, with a current DIO agent keeping tabs on his former partner (and maybe getting too close). I would have probably tried to do some missions as well, if allowed, as I wouldn't want to have recurring agent characters just appearing in interludes. I'd started giving some thought to how I could integrate my characters with the set-up and characters already presented, but considering the events of Royal Swan, that's pretty much just academic now.

If you are interested at all in seeing what thoughts your first couple of DIO pieces sparked in my brain, I could probably e-mail some notes or something.

When I started thinking about all this, a few weeks ago now, it looked like the DIO had only been used a couple of times, and had possibly fallen into neglect (having no idea what date any of the pieces were written). If I'd known that anything like this was in the making, I doubt I'd have bothered thinking about it.

I'll probably just remove any reference to the DIO in my plans. After all, the Message looks like it could provide plenty of fun and games.
That sheds some light and explains a lot. by Ellipsis Flood on 2012-05-14 19:41:00 UTC Reply

I can see where your wish to write out this department comes from.

Also, thank you for mentioning it. Now I just have to name my next fort's mechanic Justin Agent.

Re: The thing here is... by Ellipsis Flood on 2012-05-14 12:04:00 UTC Reply

I just like the idea of it being there, even if I don't get to use it. That said, the whole 'hunting down internal Sues' could just as well be the DIA's responsibility, just with less MiB feeling. 'Policing the agents' applies to agents turned Sues and agents who are actually Sues as well.

About the cherry-picking: That was more of a general statement. I like cross-referencing other things in my stories, and I don't want to exclude something that's basically well-written.

And I've never really seen anything on the DIO being off-limits. Could you provide a link for that?

Re: The thing here is... by Huinesoron on 2012-05-14 19:15:00 UTC Reply

I think the DIA already do it - they just don't call them Sues. And the rest of the time, the PPC just lets it slide - witness the Badficfests, where only two Sues (that I know of) have ever been killed.

And no, I can't provide a reference, simply because I've not got a page of What Can't Be Used. Since I'm still relatively active in the PPC, I'm pretty sure people would ask before using it (just as they would Technical Errors, say), and we'd discuss it there. It's never come up, so Gondor Has No Link.

hS

Thoughts. :) by Mechajin on 2012-05-14 08:57:00 UTC Reply

I'm honestly not sure where I stand with this, plotwise. It's definitely very dark, That's definitely no bad thing, but It just doesn't feel right, In my opinion.

Other than that though, It was an excellent piece of writing, and the Jaycacia Thornbyrd Cameo/thing made me chuckle. I didn't notice any SPaG errors, but I wasn't really looking. :/

I guess all I can really say is, It's a great piece of writing, whether I like the plot or not, It was still fun to read. I can't wait til you write more. :)
[Spoilers] by Data Junkie on 2012-05-14 05:50:00 UTC Reply

I... Did you just write out the entire Department of Internal Operations, either by banishing the characters, or reassigning them, because apparently the Board of Flowers decided they didn't want/need the department anymore?

I can't say I'm okay with that. This just feels more and more like what was done with Makes-Things, only worse, because you just exiled three characters (One of whom, Justin, most likely did not deserve what is the worst punishment I've ever read in the PPC), and dissolved an entire department.

On the other hand, as people have pointed out, the canon of the PPC is... selective, outside of TOS. And I plan on taking advantage of that. I'm afraid I'm going to have to pull out of the cowrite, though that may or may not be a moot point, but with your permission I'd like to make use of the message for a brief interlude, which should establish both my character's stance, and my personal one.

Two things. by Huinesoron on 2012-05-14 19:22:00 UTC Reply

First, since I'm not going to write it all out again (it wore me out enough the first time), this ramble answers some of your initial points.

As to the Message, as stated in White Swans and Black, it's there for anyone to use as they wish. I would ask, however, that you consider whether you're using it to actually tell a story, or simply make a philosophical point. If the latter, you might want to avoid it - the best way to counter something you dislike is surely to write something you do like, rather than using up that energy establishing stances.

hS
LOL. by Kaitlyn on 2012-05-14 07:21:00 UTC Reply

hS, you aren't allowed to kill your own original characters. Or your departments. Even if you own their entire staff . . . and have specifically said that nobody else is allowed to use them . . .

It's just not on, hS. I tsk at you, sir. Tsk mightily.

Even if this wasn't directed at me... by Ellipsis Flood on 2012-05-14 10:05:00 UTC Reply

I felt belittled and being made fun of when reading this.
Re: LOL. by Data Junkie on 2012-05-14 08:02:00 UTC Reply

For the record, I wasn't saying that he wasn't allowed to do anything. I was simply saying that I was no longer comfortable being involved with this storyline, which I admitted was probably a moot point, and saying why. And asking to use the Message so that I could explain (in-story, at least) why no references to this would appear in my work. What I was avoiding saying outright is that this is a lot darker than I'd expect from the PPC. Counting both this and the previous story in the trilogy, we have: An agent being drugged against her will or knowledge, an agent going insane and killing several flowers, an innocent(seemingly, at least) agent being sent to certain death, and an innocent (again, seemingly) tree being banished to a place where he will likely never see a single being he ever knew.

Admittedly, I have not read much else of hS' work, beyond the DoGA stuff, so this kind of tone may be par for the course for his more serious works. If that's true, though, I think I'll continue not reading them.

I will admit that I could have phrased my previous post better. Probably this one too. I apologize if I have inadvertently offended you or your husband.

Not offended, dude. by Kaitlyn on 2012-05-14 08:17:00 UTC Reply

Truly just amused. It put a smile on my face.

Incidentally, I'm not into dark stuff myself, so I get you. If I were to return to writing PPC for public consumption, I'd handwave away most of hS-canon for my own stories -- it's complicated, and I'm lazy . . .

...Ahuh. by JulyFlame on 2012-05-14 07:54:00 UTC Reply

I can't personally say if I remember if hS has ever said specifically that no one else is allowed to use that department, but I am pretty sure that responding in this manner was definitely crossing a line in terms of trying to be polite and respectful of others in the PPC.

Your response came across as being condescending, disrespectful, and overall dismissive of Data's opinion. I strongly hope that isn't the case.

While hS is allowed to kill off his characters, and his own departments, it doesn't mean that Data has to like it or feel comfortable with the way it is going, and he shouldn't be berated for it.

I respect Data's opinions, and I respect Huinesoron's right to write this, whether people like it or not. I would hate it very much if people come to blows over something he wrote due to a perceived treatment of someone's opinions.

I promise I spoke out of genuine, heartfelt amusement. (nm) by Kaitlyn on 2012-05-14 07:59:00 UTC Reply

Um. by VixenMage on 2012-05-14 23:33:00 UTC Reply

That doesn't make it okay to go "LOL." at someone's reasonably diplomatic sincere question any less eyebrow-raising. You've kind of been talking lately about how you don't really care about the PPC, or PPC canon, anymore, and you've outgrown all this, and I get that. I really do. I write the Cafeteria stories for fun, and I don't read many spin-offs lately, and I'm only recently starting to realize that I just don't know 'modern' PPC canon all that well, these days. I understand that this isn't a really important thing to you anymore, and as has always been the case, I don't think that should impact the way anyone regards you at all; you don't have to write, breathe, and live PPC to be a Boarder.

But... your tone, juxtaposed with your saying things like "I cared when I was thirteen, but I'm not thirteen anymore," kind of makes it feel like you consider the rest of us immature, or somehow beneath your respect. And responses like this do nothing to make me feel better about that. Lately, I seem to be getting a lot of vaguely-directed irritation [from a lot of people] with anything new, and vaguely-spoken "Things were better back when..." ideas. And it's really kind of bad. It creates a hostile environment, for everyone involved.

Having been here longer than someone is not an excuse to treat their opinions, or them, with no respect. If a newbie posted something like this, no matter how true their reasoning was, everyone and their dog would be ripping them to shreds for it. This response, whether you are right or wrong in your reasoning*, really is pretty bad behavior, and I'm not okay with you justifying it as amusement. Please be more respectful with how you treat others here.

--VM

*and I do actually agree that, given the Department is Huinesoron's, he should be able to write it out, and that as he pleases. We had this conversation in the IRC last night. Buuut as pointed out, Data also has the right to go "Wow, this is dark, I don't want my agents in on it." So it's... complicated, I guess.

Subject line goes here . . . by Kaitlyn on 2012-05-15 08:05:00 UTC Reply

While you're right about the things I've said in recent posts, I didn't charge into any conversation going, "Oh, yeah, I used to think this was all cool too . . . when I was a kid." I agree, that would have been totally rude. That only came up because I was directly asked why I'd bothered to join. And, well, that story goes back to when I was thirteen, and includes the fact that my life was completely different then. (An epic tale indeed)

The points I actually led in with were equally true even when I was deeply active in the PPC. I made the point years and years and years ago that nobody else's PPC writings had to seap into mine . . . and the PPC has always been just an internet fandom. I've always thought it was important to keep that in perspective (and occasionally struggled to do so).

That doesn't make it an invalid hobby. If it brings joy to your life, it's a fantastic hobby, whether you're young or old or decline to state. It's no more immature than knitting or skydiving or, um, what do people do? Stormchasing? Baking? Amature bronzework? Maybe I know weird people.

Saying "LOL." was immature, though. I'll apologise for that. Sorry, Data. Cheers for your post, VM.

Fair enough. by VixenMage on 2012-05-15 19:41:00 UTC Reply

I suppose I was cherry-picking a bit with that, and I apologize. Thank you for clarifying your point.

(All of those are awesome hobbies, by the way. And probably weird, but that makes 'em more awesome, not less.)

And another plug! by Huinesoron on 2012-05-12 22:53:00 UTC Reply

With someone so obscure they're not even on the List of Departments.

Awakening

Try and work out who before you reach the end. :P

(The dating on this is left perfectly vague; it predates Crashing Down, hence the Wisteria, but beyond that...)

hS

A nice perspective change by ThatOne on 2012-05-13 03:00:00 UTC Reply

When something is shown from a Plant's perspective, it's almost always a Flower so it's good to see the difference between the different types.
It's interesting. by TheMadHatteress on 2012-05-13 02:33:00 UTC Reply

I like seeing the perspective of one of the Flowers before they were sentient. And I guessed who it was before the end ^^.
I quite like it by Phobos on 2012-05-13 02:05:00 UTC Reply

The style is something different. Poetic, even. I don't think it was intentional on the character's part. I imagine it just comes off that way because of the speed they think at.

Also, I guessed who it was before the end, though I didn't know what department/division they were in. I will, of course, not be saying it. I don't want to spoil the fun.

-Phobos

...Oh, man. by Cassie on 2012-05-12 20:49:00 UTC Reply

Interesting chat between the Flowers, definitely. And a few of my Agents are in for an unpleasant shock.

I expect by Elcalion on 2012-05-15 10:26:00 UTC Reply

Keily will be in for a shock if/when she next delurks (the self-confessed Clover luster may be devestated!)
... they are? by Huinesoron on 2012-05-12 21:21:00 UTC Reply

Oh starfire, what have I implied now?

hS

Well... by Cassie on 2012-05-12 22:17:00 UTC Reply

I do have to wonder how else Finance Agents would react to that news about their Head of Department.

And I have to admit I'm also curious as to who the replacement is likely to be, assuming there is one.

You have Finance agents? by Huinesoron on 2012-05-12 22:45:00 UTC Reply

Awesome! I think that means you get to assign a replacement. All I'll say is that the last three have all been white Flowers.

hS

I do, actually. :P by Cassie on 2012-05-13 00:07:00 UTC Reply

I even wrote something for one of them once - Rina Telcontar; just a little tale about her first day on the job.

I'll definitely give the consideration of the replacement careful consideration. If anyone else reads this, by the way, I'm more than happy to listen to suggestions as well. :)

I have a tentative candidate... by Cassie on 2012-05-13 05:03:00 UTC Reply

however, I'll be holding off a bit until the rest of the story is resolved before I try producing something to introduce them.
Replacement by SeaTurtle on 2012-05-13 00:39:00 UTC Reply

A white tulip comes to mind for me.
Oh, while you're here... by Huinesoron on 2012-05-13 00:15:00 UTC Reply

... do you think some of the misconceptions apparently arising from Swansong would be alleviated by my releasing Mute Swan (with or without the text of the Message) ahead of schedule - ie, in the next couple of days - with Flight of Swans still waiting a couple of weeks? I ask you since you're one of the two people who've actually seen it. :P

hS, trying for damage control

I, ah... hm. by Cassie on 2012-05-13 00:23:00 UTC Reply

Possibly. Mute Swan does clarify a few things that Swansong raised my hackles about. I've gotta admit that this isn't ever going to be my favourite set of PPC stories, but Mute Swan might answer a few things.

Or it might get more of the oldbies pointing out things that I didn't think about. Either way. :P

Personally, I'd say publish.

Mmkay. by Huinesoron on 2012-05-13 00:36:00 UTC Reply

Then I shall follow your advice - after putting in a new section to avoid a bit of conclusion-jumping which takes place.

hS

Nice. by Ivan the Not-so-Terrible on 2012-05-12 17:37:00 UTC Reply

Just one question. Do Flowers show up on IR or other nonvisible (to humans) frequencies? If so, could an Agent stumble across the club?I'm laughing at the Agent's reaction.

Thehe... by Ellipsis Flood on 2012-05-12 17:48:00 UTC Reply

I imagine it like that, just with Flowers.

But yes, this manages to flesh out what would have been cheap deaths otherwise. Has this been written before or after Swansong?

KABOOOOM by Kaitlyn on 2012-05-12 08:55:00 UTC Reply

. . . all I did was pick it up . . . and strap it to some dynamite and light the fuse . . . but I was promised stability!

We have a Medical Research division? Huh. The things you learn.

Lovely. A bit tragic, but it's nice to see the Flowers (and, uh, Fruits) socialising. Bless 'em.