Subject: Fair enough
Author:
Posted on: 2012-04-18 23:37:00 UTC
It is still a concern, for me. I just wanted to make it known that I had this concern, since it is a big one. This way, AnnaBee knows what to look out for when she is writing, so she doesn't take him in a direction that would make him a full-blown Stu. Forewarned is forearmed, as they say.
-Phobos
Please welcome the agents of Response Center 221a: Department of Floaters~!
Agent #1- Robert Vernet, formerly known as Sherlock Holmes
Appearance: Wild, shaggy brown hair, dark eyes, and a faint stubble across his chin. Facial expression can best be described as 'pensive', unless you're in the Harry Potter continuum, where 'thoughtful' will have to do. Tends to have a meerschaum pipe clenched between his teeth, full of Longbottom Leaf. Tall and bony. Wears the black uniform of an average PPC agent, with a Floater flash patch on his right shoulder... a dark brown deerstalker hat, and a long blue scarf. If asked about these accoutrements, he simply laughs.
Personality: Brilliant, arrogant, and just a leetle too self-confident. Vain, when it comes to his mental capacities, and responds a little TOO well to flattery. He's originally from the Victorian era, and was originally one of the 'leading men' in a piece of slash. He has a number of hang-ups related to this. Has a highly addictive personality, though his addictions tend to be to ward off boredom. Before coming to the PPC, he smoked like a chimney, drank too much, did cocaine and morphine, played World of Warcraft, and watched entirely too much bad daytime TV. Now, he doesn't get bored as often- his console won't LET him- so he mostly restrains himself to the wide, WIDE array of bleeproducts available to agents. Doesn't make friends easily. A bit of a loner. Tries to be coolly logical, like his (original) namesake. Some days he is better at this than others. Has inherited his namesake's deductive skills, and tastes in most areas. Speaks a little more formally than your average teenage PPC agent, but a little less formally than some of the agents who are ACTUALLY from the Victorian Era, due to his original authoress being lazy. Oh, and his RC looks like it's a mess, but he's got an 'idiosyncratic' (read- completely batsh*t) system of keeping everything where it goes.
History: Robert comes from an Implausible Crossover RP- South Park/Sherlock Holmes. In this fic, instead of barely surviving his plunge from the Reichenbacher Falls, Holmes fell through a portal into South Park. General hilarity and some slash-y romance ensued. When the PPC came to clean things up, they found themselves with a problem, in the form of one Sherlock Holmes. In canon, Holmes is repeatedly stated to be rather sexless, and almost emotionless. However, while this Holmes was more than capable of emotion, and had fallen in love with (an adult version of) a South Parkian, he wasn't a Gary Stu. He was like Paddlebrains- a legitimate, functional Character Replacement. Long story short, he decided to work with the PPC rather than die. His name's Robert in homage to Robert Downey Jr., and Vernet because he always liked the name. (It was a relative of his.) He's at the PPC for almost a year now, and has already driven two partners off (they couldn't handle his 'quirks'.)
Weapons: A sword-cane, which he can use as either a sword or a singlestick, and a revolver. He's an accomplished boxer, and has trained- but is not very good- at the Japanese art of Baritsu.
Lust Objects: John Watson and Irene Adler, from Sherlock Holmes; Christophe 'ze Mole' DeLorne from South Park; L from Death Note; Charlie Epps from Numb3rs; River Tam from Firefly.
Fandoms: Anything remotely Sherlock Holmes related, Death Note, Numb3rs, Lie to Me, South Park, Firefly, Ender's Game, and Lord of the Rings. He enjoys any canon that's big and complicated and has well-defined rules. He really loathes bad Holmes adaptations, and HATES Psych because the main character tries to pass his powers of observation off as magic.
~
Character #2: Mundar o' the Five Hills (A.K.A. Mr. Fivehills)
Appearance: Mundar's a dwarf. As such, he's short, squat, and thick-boned. 'Compact' might be the proper word to use here. His beard's long, thick, ruddy, dirty, and beer-soaked. He TRIES to braid it Gimli-style, but ends up leaving it half-done and/or coming apart. He's also got a full head of thick, wild, dirty ginger hair. His skin's tanned, almost weatherbeaten, and also dirty- he seems to have a permanent layer of grime on him. He's got twinkling, dark eyes, and laugh lines etched into his face. He's bare-chested and barefoot, though he wears a black kilt with the Floater flash patch on it. Until recently, he refused to wear any other clothing. Unfortunately for the rest of the PPC, he's discovered Jayne's Hat, and wears a replica of it, as often as Vernet will permit.
Personality: Mundar is merry, cunning, shrewd, and a wee bit of an anarchist. He's obsessed with his own personal freedom, and will do anything to flaunt the fact that he's 'free-er' than you. In fact, he is the freest dwarf ever. Any who dare to challenge this claim are met with a first-hand view of what lies under his kilt, until they require large amounts of bleeprin. If Mundar's life is threatened, he'll announce that he'll die a free dwarf and rip off his kilt. He's hearty, laughing, and fond of drink and song. Usually all of those together at once. He's extremely gay- his straight, male creator made him so for the LOLs- but is firmly in the closet, and won't admit to any of his LOs. He has a bad habit of using any piece of paper in reach as a towel/toilet paper. Vernet has taken to leaving a copy of 'New Moon' out for him to use for the purpose.
Mundar is having some trouble adjusting to PPC life, for three reasons: First, he is having some trouble adjusting to the idea of following the rules/charging Sues instead of killing them on sight/not being able to drink 24/7. After a few run-ins with the Flowers that Be, he's grudgingly following the rules he needs to follow, and ignoring the rest. Secondly, he can't read. Vernet is teaching him, and he's learning Canon from books on tape, but until then, it puts him at a disadvantage when it comes to the Words. Thirdly, he clashes with his partner a lot. Vernet likes stability and order, and is less than patient with people who break the rules; Mundar is nothing if not chaotic and unruly. Their arguments are legendary.
History: Mundar is a minor character from an original Dungeons and Dragons campaign setting named 'Erythos'. He was supposed to be a friendly NPC, assisting the heroes. Once his role in the campaign was finished, his author had no idea of what to do with him. He let an authoress adopt him. Said authoress promptly stuck him in the PPC, where he's been languishing ever since.
Weapons: He'd prefer his axe; if that isn't available, he can use pretty much any heavy weapon. He's not averse to using his fists either.
Fandoms: Lord of the Rings, Firefly, Pokemon, Order of the Stick, and Artemis Fowl. He has a guilty weakness for Twilight, though he'd never admit this to any of the other agents.
LOs: Gimli, son of Gloin, from LOTR; Mulch Diggums, from Artemis Fowl, Jayne Cobb from Firefly; Jacob Black, from Twilight. Of course, he won't admit to any of these, either.
*Ze Piece*:
To anyone but Robert Vernet, RC 221a looked like a pigsty. Books, loose papers, and video game controllers were scattered across the surface of Vernet’s long, narrow desk, three empty tea mugs sat on top of the TV, clothing hung from every available surface, and a bag of Longbottom Leaf rested inside his Killer Rabbit slippers. If there was any organizational scheme at all, only a genius or a madman could have understood it.
Unfortunately for his former partners, Vernet was a little of both.
The dark-haired Floater flicked through a stack of Intelligence reports, tracing the lines of text with a long, bony finger. He chuckled, and placed them on top of a teetering paper stack. To him, this wild mess looked like the very face of order. It was his own little world, and he was at the center.
That was, until a muddy dwarf fell from a hole in the ceiling, crash-landing on the tallest pile.
Vernet stared at him for a long moment. The dwarf was filthy, covered from head to toe with greenish mud. He had wild, ginger hair, an unruly, ginger beard, weatherbeaten skin, and he positively reeked of beer. His only article of clothing was a threadbare kilt.
“...Who in God’s name are you?” Vernet frowned.
The dwarf staggered to his feet, sending a few more papers falling off the desk. He planted one muddy foot firmly on top of Vernet’s copy of The Silmarillion.
“I am MUNDAR O' THA FIVE HILLS, Bane of Norskai, Nemesis of Du'Kal, Defiler of Ancient Scrolls, Public Enemy Number Two, and FREEST Dwarf in tha Land!” he roared.
Vernet winced, and tried to tug the book away without Mundar noticing. His stance was extremely stable, though, and eventually, the Agent gave up. He had more important things to worry about. Such as how a dwarf had gotten into his RC to begin with.
“Vernet. Robert Vernet.” He extended his hand for Mundar to shake, but the dwarf frowned and put a hand to the hilt of his axe.
He gave it up as a bad job, again, and lowered his hand. Vernet sized him up in the blink of an eye, as he usually did. He could tell a lot about someone just from giving them a once-over, because he noticed small details that few other people caught. Right now, though, he was looking for one thing.
“You aren’t a Stu,” he said, relieved. With a list of titles like that, he had been worried… but there was a distinct lack of urple or glitter in the dwarf’s general vicinity, and Stuthors tended to hate dwarves anyway. They weren’t pretty enough.
“...Stu?” Mundar looked around, bewildered. His gaze landed on the stacks of paper, and he grinned.
“Oh, just what I needed!”
Before Vernet could stop him, Mundar snatched up the front page of the Intel report he’d been reading and smeared it across his bare chest, wiping away the mud. He gave a little grunt of satisfaction, and reached for another sheet.
“Get away from that!” Vernet snatched the paper from his hands. “That's going into my casebook, you little-“
He cut himself off. There was no point to being impolite, even to a barbarian like this.
“Hey! I found it fair an' square!” Mundar leaped at him, axe in one hand, grabbing for the sheet. “An' I'm not finished with it!”
Vernet stepped back, holding his hands up in a conciliatory way. He didn't want to anger an inebriated, axe-wielding dwarf.
“Go ahead, take it. ...Where did you come from?” he asked, quietly.
The dwarf’s eyes widened, and he frowned.
“I'm from the Trollwood, a' course!” he said.“ Ain't ye heard o' me?”
/Great God above…/ Vernet pinched the bridge of his nose. He didn’t like people, and this- this dwarf was particularly infuriating. He went through the words of his mantra in his head, calming himself, and took a deep breath.
“...I'm not from your world,” he told Mundar. “This is another realm. We call it PPC HQ.”
Mundar snorted.
“Heh. Pee pee...”
Vernet scowled.
“It’s short for Protectors of the Plot Continuum, and you’d do well to remember that,” he said. “... What world are you from?”
The dwarf lowered his axe and thought for a long moment, stroking his beard. It reminded Vernet of a rat’s nest.
“...Ery-whatsits,” he finally said.
/The little blighter doesn’t know the name of his own world?/
“One moment, please, Mr. Fivehills...” Vernet said, dryly. He opened the bottom drawer of his desk, pushed aside a Parcheesi board and a cheese grater, and pulled out his C.A.D. It looked like a cross between a ray gun and a tuning fork, and he was very proud of the fact that it hadn’t exploded once.
The Ironic Overpower took note of this fact.
I want to give my two coppers on the subject of Robert Vernet, while we are here. To be blunt, he is a blatant Stu.
I understand that you were going for a Paddlebrains type character here, but there are a few problems with that in this case:
1) Paddlebrains was fairly different from the character she replaced. She was her own character with some similarities to Sirius Black. Vernet, on the other hand, is Sherlock Holmes with a few superficial changes (his name, his modern habits, etc). One of the few major changes you did make was to take away his addictions, which makes him more of a Stu, not less.
2) Serius Black was not a Stu. Sherlock Holmes is a Historical Stu. He has qualities that make him way too powerful for any canon but his own, which you would like to take him out of.
To further my point, some of the descriptions of Vernet and his abilities in the writing sample point straight to Stu.
"If there was any organizational scheme at all, only a genius or a madman could have understood it.
Unfortunately for his former partners, Vernet was a little of both."
"It was his own little world, and he was at the center."
"Vernet sized him up in the blink of an eye, as he usually did. He could tell a lot about someone just from giving them a once-over, because he noticed small details that few other people caught."
I don't believe that Robert Vernet is a viable agent, as he stands. To help make him a viable character, because I think he does have potential, I would like to offer a suggestion.
Try making him Robert Vernet, instead of Not!Sherlock Holmes. Maybe he thinks he is Sherlock Holmes but, in reality, he is a guy with no more perceptiveness than most people, who believes he can see all sorts of details that other people miss. Maybe he is striving to become Holmes. These allow for a level of character growth that him already being Sherlock Holmes really doesn't.
If you want to discuss this further, I am willing to help you come up with some ideas to make this character work. My email address is on the wiki (Username: Phobos7) or you can sometimes find me in the chat.
Note for everybody:
I'm not going to lie, I am against the idea of Not!Canons as a general rule. We should be able to create our own characters by the time we are writing for the PPC, we shouldn't have to take a canon character and write them into a world of our own. That is called Transdimensional Snatching. We have a Department, in the organization, dedicated to stopping that sort of thing.
I'm not saying you can't do it. I am saying that, before you do it, you had better have an excellent reason. "I want to" and "Because it would be cool" are not excellent reasons.
-Phobos
I didn't really take that into consideration for a few reasons.
For one, Holmes as a character is only plausible where there is sense and logic. He works completely off of his reasoning skills. That is, there are things that add up that can be reasoned from in a logical manner, and that's where he gains those things you're concerned about as a character in any incarnation. Logic and things building up to a reasonable conclusion isn't something one can do in a badfic.
Badfic, more often than not, has these giant leaps where there is no sense or reasoning behind what is done in them, which would basically break that.
Second, his partner also has to be taken into account. When agents are too similar, or one is more dominant than the other, there is less room for potential humor, because the clashes and differences are generally what bring dynamism into the spin-off. AnnaBee's sample shows us that both aren't the sort to give in or let the other steamroll them, and Mundar's personality is chaotic enough- and frustrating enough for Vernet- that it throws Vernet off fairly quickly as indicated in that sample. Future parts will likely show continued blocking, ignoring, doing things without regards for Vernet, and so on.
With those things in mind, I didn't really see it as much of an issue, given where the character is being used and with who as an intended partner.
It is still a concern, for me. I just wanted to make it known that I had this concern, since it is a big one. This way, AnnaBee knows what to look out for when she is writing, so she doesn't take him in a direction that would make him a full-blown Stu. Forewarned is forearmed, as they say.
-Phobos
Oh, I'm WELL aware that canon!Holmes is a Stu. I actually weeded out a LOT of the traits that make him a Stu in this... or tried to.
He's no longer a brilliant detective AND a brilliant actor AND a brilliant scientist AND a brilliant fighter AND a brilliant violin player AND...you get the picture. Among other things.
His Not-Knowing-Things-He's-Not-Interested-In is a HUGE liability. In, say, a Lion King or Firefly or Discworld fic, he's pretty clueless and useless. I can go on.
That's EXACTLY what I was thinking. The thing about the PPC is that it's completely illogical... and Holmes (thus, Vernet) is a creature of logic. He's already becoming a far different (and, you know, insane) character, JUST due to having to cope with a world that Does Not Follow The Rules. Though I don't see him going flamethrower-crazy any time soon, he's definitely slipping. And, as I said, in this life, his powers are only useful as party tricks in the PPC proper.
Oh, yes. Just wait until Mundar starts streaking. Or singing 'The Hero Of Canton' really loudly in a Firefly badfic. Or, Eru forbid, discovers movie musicals. Or tries to steal one of Gimli's braids as a souvenir. Or... or... *so much Or*
@ Phobos, with the drugs- In canon, NOT in the more realistic Holmes spinoffs, the drugs don't really have much of an effect on his ability to function. He mostly takes them to keep his big old brain occupied when nothing interesting is going on. In the PPC, you're ALWAYS on a mission, or recovering from your last mission. So, long story short, while he still has a near-idolatrous love of tobacco (Longbottom Leaf hasn't helped matters in this department), still drinks like a fish, and still occasionally shoots substances that are meant for eye surgery into his veins, he's much LESS likely to do so than he was, either in his fic of origin or in canon.
Until he gets bored, that is...
One does not simply stop taking cocaine or opiates when one ceases to be bored. They are powerful drugs with powerful addictive properties. So, either he still does them, or he has gone through some serious withdrawal at some point in the past. Bleeproducts are very likely not a suitable substitute. Something to consider.
Anyway, congrats on your Permission. Your characters have potential and I look forward to seeing them make use of it.
-Phobos
I wasn't sure of WHAT to say on that, mostly because I didn't know whether or not the PPC had any rules about that sort of thing.
I'm thinking either he's still WELL on the habit, which could be a problem (e.g. he runs out of cocaine midway through a bleepfic and needs to go get more, but he can't leave the mission, thus, he starts getting the shakes and getting IRRITABLE AS ALL H*LL, and they need to get all the charges in BEFORE he loses it...
Or... he's a Sam-Vimes style, 'one-is-too-many-two-is-not-enough' sort of recovered addict, who's trying desperately to stay clean... and keeps getting assigned to Druggie!Sues. :P
This answer courtesy of all the fine folks in the IRC who wouldn't let me read my book until I'd stepped in. {; P
Anyway, there's really just the one rule: the Rule of Funny. Generally speaking, addiction and withdrawal are not funny, particularly when you start talking about hard drugs like cocaine, which is why you've never heard of any other agents who are users. It's a tricky subject with a huge potential to cause discomfort in other people if handled inappropriately. "Trivialization" can be a charge in badfic.
On the other hand, there's nothing saying you can't do it if you think you can successfully play it for laughs. A lot of comedy works by not holding anything sacred. If you're comfortable taking the risk that you could crash and burn and offend people—or even succeed and still offend people—then I won't tell you not to try it.
Personally, I think your second option is the most likely to succeed. Pratchett is excellent at taking a heavy subject and balancing it with levity, so his is a good example to follow.
Another question, of course, is "why is this important to do?" I haven't read the rest of this thread myself, but from what I've heard, this issue exists because the character in question is supposed to be Sherlock Holmes in all but name. Is that really necessary, or is there another way to do what you want in your spin-off without hijacking a canon character with all his baggage and sticking it in a setting where it might not be appropriate? It might be worth considering.
~Neshomeh, who always asks why.
While your agents seemed fairly interesting in their profile sections, and your story was entertaining, I have some bad news.
As per your story, I can unfortunately not give you permission, because one of your characters is a massive Stu and/or character replacement to the point of making CADs explode when activated.
This is generally a bad trait in PPC agents.
The point of it was he was supposed to be like Paddlebrains. A viable alternate version of a character, rather than a Stu. >///////>
Is there any way I can do this character WITHOUT making him a Stu?
If it helps, he's a semi-fic blip. *may have forgotten to mention that in his description* The RP he was in was a facebook chat RP, and thus, never went beyond the two people who ran it.
And most of his stu-ier powers are 1) part of Sherlock Holmes' character and 2) going to be completely useless in the PPC, except as party tricks.
If there's no way I can redeem him, I completely understand. But I'd really like to use Vernet and Mundar, if I can.
What was the focus of in that post? As in, what reason did I give you for the denial? What does not mesh with your character descriptions, that is indicated in the prose, that I had pointed out?
I am spazzing. *deep breath* I must not spazz. Spazz is the mind killer.
...I am not quite sure. You said that it was that he was a character replacement. ...Is it that he has Sherlock's deductive powers?
As previously noted, a CAD explodes when confronted with a massive Stu or seriously wrong character replacement.
In your permission sample, the CAD exploded- which CAD, I do not know, thus the and/or- upon use.
With this rationale, it means that one of your characters is either a massive Stu or a seriously wrong character replacement.
I am weighing what the story has told me about your agents over the profiles you gave me, because the story is more important. Your story told me that one of them is a massive Stu or a seriously wrong character replacement.
If you like, come into the chat where we can go over this more.
Since we see you pop in, and then back out.
See, I don't see any messages. I just see a parchment-y screen/
Try using this?
You will want to scroll down to 'Sorcery' next to Connect, and then put #PPC as the channel, and AnnaBee as the nick.
Alternately, on your home computer, use Chatzilla if you use Firefox or download an IRC client.
Because I think we frown on that. :P
hS, with popcorn
I mean, if it did, you wouldn't be having popcorn right now, right?
... popcorn is awesome HEY GIVE THAT BACK.
hPopcorn
I'm thinking Mundar's CAD is going to EXPLODE and Vernet's might be one of the 'smart' ones that just shuts down. Or vicey-versy, haven't decided what's funnier yet.
I was saying 'Vernet was thinking about how proud he was that he took good care of his equipment and it had never exploded before', and the Ironic Overpower is taking note of this fact.
I mentioned this because the first fic I plan to send them into is The Adventures of Dark Yagami, where EVERY character is a MASSIVE character replacement and/or Stu/Sue/Ooh. Because of this, BOTH their CADs are going to die horribly. That would be better mentioned in the mission FOR THAT FIC, huh?
I just thought it was a nice little piece of foreshadowing. Apparently I was DEAD WRONG. *facekeys*
Things stack to be appropriate.
Vernet being proud of the CAD never exploding before when using it in a scenario that should not cause it to explode would not prompt the Ironic Overpower to make it explode.
This is because the reason that CADs explode when used does not stack like that. CADs explode when your agents are unwise enough to point them at a character that is so massively out of character and/or is such a massive Sue or Stu. That cries out for the Ironic Overpower to step in and cause it to explode in their face.
The Ironic Overpower works off of what is plausible. In this case, the Ironic Overpower would work like that if one of them was a Stu/massive character replacement. But they aren't, so there's no reason for the Ironic Overpower to work to make Vernet's CAD explode in this situation.
Your writing sample showed that you do not understand how and why PPC tech works the way it does (or explodes the way it does.)
Does the rest of the fic, as is, stand up?
Or are there other problems with it?
This is obviously something I didn't make clear. I was saying the Ironic Overpower was making a note of this, to use for LATER. I obviously smegged up.
It's the whole "CAD explodes for no reason" thing. That's not foreshadowing. That's a random event.
The CAD didn't explode. XD
I should have added the one paragraph after where he scans Mundar and nothing bad happens, huh? XD Well.
Obviously, this has been a learning experience for me. Post the WHOLE fic and not just a few paragraphs, eh?
Now that makes sense. When I had read it, I had taken it as meaning that the IO had noticed- with the ensuing explosion implied following that.
This lead to my previous posts and concerns.
Saying that there was a paragraph afterwards that says that nothing of the sort actually occurred and that it was really just the IO making note makes more sense. And yes, always give the whole story, not just a few paragraphs, especially when the ending line can be taken in a few different ways, like with this one.
I'm not familiar with your writing style, and what's actually going on can vary with who is writing what, thanks to how wonderfully complicated writing can actually be.
With this being understood now, yes, as it stands, it does make sense and shows that you actually know what you're doing (as compared to misuse of things to prove something is funny.)
This having been cleared up, consider permission granted.
Now excuse me, but I have popcorn to steal.
I will try to be worthy of this magnificent gift. *bows low*
I have learned my lesson about invoking the Ironic Overpower. NEVER. AGAIN.
As you explained in the post I just replied to, you showed you did know how to invoke it- you just invoked with as a line ender which usually implies it also did something at the same time.
With the understanding that you didn't give the full story- which you ought to have done- and that there was a bit that showed it really was just the IO taking note, it makes sense and shows you know how the Ironic Overpower works.
(As interpreted previously, it makes for it being the other way around.)
I see. He doesn't need a CAD, therefore, STU.
RAGING STU.
If I alter the offending portion of the manuscript, will that remove this horror?