Subject: Agh, so much polite fighting!
Author:
Posted on: 2012-04-10 14:52:00 UTC
It's like watching a bunch of stereotypical Britishmen have an extremely long debate.
Shall I pass around the tea?
(No offense meant to anyone, I prefer this to the flame wars that sprout up on other boards I've been on)
I understand how the designated arbitrator system works in the IRC. I am confused, however, as to why certain individuals have full mod power, when they were not voted to be DAs. I was under the impression that the DA system was in place so that our kind-of authority figures were elected. At my count, we currently have three individuals with automatic full mod powers who are not DAs. I would appreciate an explanation.
I need to apologize, for many, many things. It’s amazing how quickly you will realize how much of a horrible person you have been when your anger goes away, and you realize that you had nothing to be righteously angry about in the first place.
I apologize for my conduct. Knee jerk reaction anger is not a sound basis for an argument.
I apologize to those who I may have leveled accusations against. Any accusations of wrongdoing in the case of mod selection are unfounded.
I apologize for anyone I may have intentionally or unintentionally dragged into this. That was wrong of me, and I’m incredibly sorry.
Feelings I had prior to Nakkel’s selection as a mod certainly played a part in my reaction. A huge, enormous part. I will admit that publicly here.I did not, and I need to make this clear, INTEND TO USE Tray’s case to settle a grudge with July. Rather, it caused feelings of anger I already had towards her to crystallize. (See below for exactly what that meant.) That is why I was perfectly willing, in my opening post, to try to do this without bringing him up. So yes. His departure made me angry at July, which was backed by feelings of annoyance and frustration I already had for her. (A grudge, for lack of a better term.) Tray only got brought up AFTER Data mentioned him. At that point, I wanted to try to explain my actions, which were already looking stupid. So I told everyone a half-truth: Tray’s departure angered me, and I was fighting it. As mentioned, strictly speaking, this is true. I was deluding myself thinking that I could convince anyone that I had no grudge with July, and that things were only happening because of this one case. In this sense, I did use him; as a way to keep from accepting responsibility for my own actions. That is despicable. I cannot say how sorry I am that I used him; even if it was unintentional, and I did not realize it until I sat down to write this apology.
In my anger I oversimplified things to fit my own vision. I felt like Tray leaving was the last straw; the last thing in what suddenly appeared to be a succession of events leading up to this moment. I felt that things needed to change. (See what Data alluded to me saying in conversations in his post.) And so I made a post, in anger, that attacked an individual who did not deserve the accusations I made in it. I continued to defend this post long after it was obvious that I was wrong, even to myself. Anger drove me, I have no other explanation. I thought I could right some long lasting wrong with this one thing. There was no way I could bring up my real reason for my anger; since that would break confidentiality. (Not that my reasons were right. I just thought they were.) Obviously, admitting I had a personal grudge against July on top of what I saw as my reasons would destroy my case, so I had to keep that in check. The issue of mod selection seemed like one that I could argue for, and that I had a logical basis for my argument. I could use it (that word again) to right these terrible wrongs. Is it obvious that I was trying to settle a score now? Yes. Did I realize I was trying to settle a score? No, of course not. I thought I was a defender of those who had been injured, but refused to speak up, and voicing concerns everyone else had. Obviously, I thought my anger was justified, and that I could, at least on this one issue, get people to my side. That was not the case, and for that, there is good reason. I was wrong. I was completely wrong.
As to conversations alluded to by Data: The one with Phobos was quite genuine; as stated above, I believed things that are not necessarily true. I was hoping to get him on my side, but I was not trying to manipulate him, by explaining what I believed to be true.
The things I told Data, I told him because I wanted him to understand. I did not think I could bring him to my side; but I very badly wanted him to understand.
As for EF, what I talked with her about was very similar to what I said to Phobos. Both of these conversations were almost pure expressions of my truest thoughts and feelings on the subject; what I posted on the board, especially at first, were what I thought were my unrelated arguments on this one issue I could use to end the issues I was talking about with Phobos and EF. I thought that surely, they agreed with me, and I could convince them to actively help me on the board.
To all three of you, I apologize. It was not my intention to manipulate you. I genuinely believed what I was saying. It would be much more true to say that I was telling you what I believed, and trying to restrict what I said on the board in order to both keep from breaking confidentiality and to try to conceal personal feelings I had on the issue, and so as to gain support. That obviously failed, and the fact I thought my opening post was relatively neutral speaks to how much I was deluding myself. So yes, I was trying to garner support for my position on the board in a manner that was far more manipulative than I what I did with you. For that, I apologize to the board.
So yes. To summarize, I was wrong, and I sincerely apologize to those I may have hurt. I did an incredibly stupid thing. It’s amazing how quickly you realize you’re wrong when you’re no longer angry.
And now, I am leaving. This is not a flounce. I fully intend to be back someday. I blame no-one but myself, and my own stupid actions, for my departure. I just need time away, and I assume that there are many of you who think that me being away is a good idea.
This cleared up some confusion I had.
But there is something I do want to bring up to most people on this board. I returned to the PPC board to find this upheaval, and learning what's going on with people's processes, I can honestly say I am confused and disappointed in how many people are acting here. This board is meant to be a fun, safe place for mature people to talk and collaborate in a world which is being used as a tool for authors, especially ourselves, to grow.
I can't vouch for Jay and Acacia, not having known them. I can't vouch for July, Tawaki, Sedri, Nesh, and so many others here, since I am not them personally... And maybe my view is outdated, having only just returned to the boards...
But the PPC boards were never intended for something like this to occur.
I'm probably overstepping my place by saying this, but I think a lot of people need to go back and look at the agreement they 'signed' by joining the board. The one which says that the board is for enjoyment, not argument. If you have problems with someone, PM them directly, do not involve those around you, and especially do not let it spill over into the board.
As a returning member, I felt physical discomfort posting on this board to find this going on, in a place which had previously been safe, where disagreements were worked out, and didn't devolve into a discussion where people insulted each other as subtly as they could to see what they could get away with.
In the long and short of it, my point is that treat the PPC boards and its members in the way you would want to be treated. I understand anger was a part of it, but that is also dealt with in the constitution.
That's my two cents...
"I apologize to those who I may have leveled accusations against. Any accusations of wrongdoing in the case of mod selection are unfounded."
I probably should have said this more clearly. This was meant as my apology to July, nakkel and Artell. July, for obvious reasons, since I was mostly leveling baseless and unfounded accusations against her. Since I do not feel that was clear enough, I will restate it here. July, I'm very sorry about what I said about you.
Artell and nakkel, who I implied were selected in a less than an honest manner, were included here, too. I also include the two of you in the 'dragged into it' category. For these reasons, I apologize to the two of you.
This all makes a lot more sense now—I was so confused. I really appreciate that you took the time to say it all when it might have been easier just to slip away quietly.
Personally, I'll look forward to having you back when you're ready. For the record, you're pretty cool when you're not in a towering rage.
~Neshomeh
It's like watching a bunch of stereotypical Britishmen have an extremely long debate.
Shall I pass around the tea?
(No offense meant to anyone, I prefer this to the flame wars that sprout up on other boards I've been on)
We've got passive-aggressive here too, in there with the genuinely-don't-like-fighting people and the just-give-me-a-reason-to-debate-the-existence-of-bananas people...
But it's not an agh moment for me, it's a whew, let's air the laundry and get this over with as little blood as possible. It's an "Oh, I'm so glad they won't just shoot me the next time my foot ends up in my mouth" moment.
Sometimes, anyway.
...there's free tea in argument threads.
Peppermint, please.
Mint tea, with three spoons of sugar.
Strong cuppa, black. No sugar.
I always appreciate a nice cuppa. ^_^
Tea. Earl Grey. Hot.
~Neshomeh
Thank you.
I know I'm decently recent as a half-steady addition to the IRC, but I haven't seen any of that. I have yet to see any modly or DA'ly abuse of power. There didn't seem to be a problem. I've been having tons of fun, actually.
Maybe I'm just not as confrontational as I've assumed I am, but I see no reason for there not to be mods, chosen by an already working system, so long as there is no abuse.
So... why is there suddenly a problem?
Is anyone really concerned about another fellow PPCer abusing mod powers in our chat room? When is the last time anyone was even banned?
I like to think we're all friends here, (or at least acquaintances) and it's hard to imagine anyone taking advantage of the mod/DA system to screw anyone else over. We all pretty much know each other (barring the newest of newbies, but no one is making them mods or such any time soon). Don't we know each other well enough by now to trust each other?
The wiki page is in a dire need of an update, especially with the mods. It's also irritating that these non-elected mods have more power than the DAs.
Some explanation would be neat indeed.
It's also irritating that these non-elected mods have more power than the DAs.
Did you read the bit where the DAs have the authority to overturn actions taken by the mods? The DAs were explicitly created as a check on the mods' power—and, in fact, to prevent any issue from scaling to the point where a mod would otherwise have to step in. That is why the DAs exist.
~Neshomeh
It's retroactive authority. And I don't like anyone who was not chosen by the community to have power to have power. From a purely technical standpoint, I'm pretty sure EF is right, and that full ops have more power than half ops, although I am rather ignorant of technical IRC points.
Ops have all the powers of a half-op plus the power to ban. That one thing is the only difference. Half-ops still have the power to unban, if they feel the ban was unwarranted.
There are currently 4 ops. There are 7 half-ops. So, the possibility of someone abusing the power to ban is unlikely.
I'm kind of wondering why this is such a big deal, right now. The system has been this way for as long as we've had DAs. What changed to cause such a massive reaction so suddenly?
-Phobos
July appointed a non-PG, non-DA to full mod power. So in other words, nothing that I can see was ever discussed as part of the system. I've disliked that the current mods were never voted on (and that the PGs were not mods like they were supposed to be) for quite some time, but it was close-ish to the kind-of spirit of what was discussed, so I didn't figure it was worth making a big deal about. I thought I might just have been confused. Now, I think it is worth getting some clarification on, which so far, I have not got. The point still stands that the community-voted system is not being used properly, or else it was changed, and never discussed on the board, and no changes were made to the wiki detailing these changes.
You also keep changing your concern.
Maslab and Plat have never been PGs- but you have not expressed concern in this thread with regards to them having been previous choices as mods. They were also not voted on, contrary to your claim.
As has already been related, what a mod is there for and a DA is there for are entirely different purposes, and the setup is with the intent to prevent the abuse of power.
The community-voted system is only and has only ever been applicable to the DAs, as far as the chatroom has been concerned.
What I am concerned about is that I suspect that you are doing this purposefully because of who I chose, rather than any real concern for the community or the chatroom. If it is about the person, rather than the system, it would be more honest for you to say that, rather than trying to twist everything around to supplement the agenda I have to suspect you have, at this point.
You have changed what you have said repeatedly with regards to what is told to you, both here and in the chatroom. You did not ask me anything with regards to your concerns in the chatroom at all. While I understand that the board has a permanence to it, it is also frankly quite surprising to see something on here without any warning, with things being phrased to appear as unfair as possible, and casting me in a position of being power hungry and abusing power.
Your first post gave the suggestion that I am an op, but should not be, since I was not voted for.
One of your next gave the suggestion that I should be an exception, of course, since I was the channel founder.
The last one which I just responded to gave even worse implications, since it is rather suggestive that I am trying to avoid the community on this subject, and am being a hypocrite.
Since my name's been brought up in this I want to say a few things myself.
I don't actually remember when I was made operator on #PPC (the term I prefer to use since that's the term used for IRC), which goes to show how long I've been operator. I think I was op already back when the channel was just a half-dozen people and wasn't considered as integral a part of the PPC as it is now. Two years ago, perhaps?
In any case, before I ever joined the PPC or #PPC, I was the network operator (different from a channel operator; I looked after an entire now-defunct IRC network as a member of an operator team) for several years, so I probably have the most experience looking after IRC channels. This is why I respectfully question the assumed premise that all mods should be chosen by a vote, since some technical expertise is involved as well. I think the system in place now is fine.
Of course as #PPC's operator I have not done very much; mostly house-keeping stuff like kicking for swearing if I'm around when it happens, or kick-banning spammers. Before Nakkel I was the only operator in the European timezones so I'm around when the other ops are asleep or at school/work, which is also quite useful.
To, like, everything you've said.
1-3. The mods have always been July's whim, at least since I joined, as I mentioned on the IRC. The wiki page on mods is just horribly outdated. Maslab and Plat ceased to be mods long before we moved servers, and Artell's pretty much always been a mod. The most recent crop were Joe, Nesh, and VM, but Vm quit, and Joe and Nesh stopped showing up regularly, so we needed some new ones.
4&5. No, you're right. This isn't about Nakkel. In fact, you more or less just admitted that this was about July. If you really had a problem with the mod structure, I suspect you would have brought it up on the IRC. Because that's where everyone brings up IRC problems. Instead, you seem to have decided to use this as an opportunity to publicly call July out on the Board, where there's a wider audience. Which is vaguely cowardly, and definitely not behavior befitting a Designated Arbitrator. It's stuff like making sure the audience had the wrong context that caused the problems on the previous server that led to the creation of the DAs. Doing that on the board is Not Cool.
6. As far as I know, there has never been a change in the mod structure. July has always chosen mods based on who she thinks is best suited for the job at the time.
I have sat here, and I have read this going on most of the day, and I have tried to come up with a diplomatic response, because as a DA myself, I should try my best to be diplomatic. However, when you decide to try and tell me that this is actually all about you looking out for my boyfriend, despite having given at least three other reasons in the thread? My only conclusion is that not only are you trying to attack July, but you are trying to enlist my help because you know I've had problems with her in the past. Which is also Not Cool.
Tray is, at least at the moment, gone from the PPC due to July appointing nakkel as a mod. For obvious reasons (he's my friend, namely) this pissed me off. I assume
I have also had gripes about the current mod system, but, while I do think it should change, I wasn't prepared to get into anything like this over it. Then Tray told me he was leaving because of Nakkel's appointment
So I posted this thread. Not the most rational decision in the world. I posted it here, and not in the IRC, for two reasons. The first was that I wanted to make a point about making large public decisions on the board. The second was that I had an essay to write last night, and did not have the time for a mult-hour argument in the IRC.
I did not word things as well as I should have. At all. By any stretch of the imagination. This was, obviously, a poorly thought out knee jerk reaction. I tried to frame my anger at July in the context of displeasure with the system; obviously, I majorly failed at making a convincing case, and it came off as an unprovoked attack. That was not my intention. I truly did want to get the system changed. I still do.
Of course, the fact that Tray wanted to be left out of it mean that I COULD NOT SAY WHY I WAS SO ANGRY did not help, at all. (This morning, after seeing your reaction, he gave me permission to bring him up.) In hindsight, this was not the best way to go about it at all.
In a word: Bullshit. And I have the logs to prove it. You said to me that I was right. That this was about July. You told EF you were sick of July driving people away, nonw of whom she was actually responsible for leaving. You apparently told Phobos the same thing. You're using Tray leaving over a personal grudge right now just to get sympathy from whomever you can.
You, sir, are nothing more than a manipulative jackass who is using anyone and everyone you can just to get at July. If this was just about Tray, or the mod structure, or whatever, you wouldn't be doing whatever you can to make July look bad, and you wouldn't keep changing your reasoning every time to talk to someone.
Let me make this absolutely clear: I had enough of this shit in middle school. Since all of the involved parties are adults, I expect them to goddamn well act like it. If you've got a problem with someone, you take it up with them. You don't start publicly attacking them under the guise of fixing problems or protecting people. As far as I know, none of us are politicians or twelve years old, so stop acting like it.
Look, I understand as well as anyone getting upset over internal politics on behalf of a friend, but I think my point stands in my confusion post:
As near as I can tell, Nakkel has done nothing to abuse any power being an op gives. I don't see how a friend leaving on a basis of a personal grudge actually gives reason he shouldn't be have op status. In fact, he's handled the extra responsibility incredibly well and, as far as I know, hasn't even used the status to do anything yet.
Conclusion: he is a perfectly qualified op. There is no reason to attack him, or July for appointing him, except that Tray dislikes him and you dislike July.
You're publicly trying to discredit people for personal grudges.
I am going to second Data's comment about behavior unbecoming of a DA.
So don't try to insinuate that I did.
You're attacking his appointment as op, and not because you actually have a reason to think he's unqualified. You're doing it because Tray doesn't like him.
I'm attacking the system. Should we have some kind of vote on this, I would not be opposed to voting for nakkel. I'm attacking the system because Tray left after his appointment, and I got pissed. I may have, in fact, gotten pissed at the person who appointed nakkel, because Tray is not the first person her actions have negatively impacted. No, I will not explain that last point further, because I am not going to betray confidence. Just to clarify my reasoning.
Obviously I'm doing nothing but pissing people off. I'm done talking about it.
1.If you want to attack the system, attack the system. Don't include names. Just say "I don't like that we can't vote for Mods".
2.If you are pissed at July, then talk in private.
3. You said that you're attacking the system because Tray left after Nakkel's appointment. That doesn't seem like it has much to do with the SYSTEM and more to do with Nakkel's appointment.
4.How would July know that giving Nakkel OP power would make Tray leave?
5.You said in an earlier post that you are now saying that you're upset because Tray left because Tray gave you the OK to mention him. While confidentiality is commendable, as is sticking up for a friend, if Tray wanted to say something about Nakkel's appointment, he probably would have done it himself.
6. Again, confidentiality is commendable, but saying that there have been other people who have been hurt by July, and then not saying who doesn't support your case.
7.If other mods didn't like Nakkel's appointment as a mod, they could probably take it away from him. So don't blame July about him being a mod, when other people could stop it if he was a bad choice.
8.Tray has not said anything about him leaving. The fact that he left after Nakkel became a mod doesn't necessarily mean that it was Nakkel's appointment who caused him to leave. Has Tray SPECIFICALLY TOLD YOU that it was Nakkel becoming a mod? If so, then this point is moot. If not, then don't imply that that's what caused him to leave.
Tray left for personal reasons.
Personal reasons have nothing to do with the system. Abuse of power has to do with the system. You yourself just said you wouldn't be opposed to voting for Nakkel. As I understand it, Tray would still have left after that election.
Now, to state your sentence four without obfuscation: you're acting on a personal grudge against July.
July is not the system. Stop making them out to be the same thing, and trying to obliquely attack the person through a false equation. For one, it's not terribly oblique. For another, it is personal.
Dann has full powers because while he is a DA, he is also the one who set up the system and the rules currently enacted for the chatroom. He's also someone who should have access to all of the chatroom settings in case something gets screwed up by mistake, since he knows how to use IRC. In short, he is tech(no) support.
To explain:
The DAs are group elected to keep order /and/ to review any punishments that would possible be needed for breaking the rules. The main point of the DAs is to ensure that the rules aren't broken in the first place, by helping keep it from getting to that point.
The point of mods is to- if required- ban or kick when the rules are broken. I choose the mods because I run the channel. This was discussed when the DA system and new rules were set up. While the PPC channel is for the PPC community, the mods are there in theory to step in to do the banning and kicking where it is required if I am not around and things get out of hand, despite the DAs being present.
This is to prevent the DAs from having all of the power in the chatroom, which they should not have, and in return they prevent abuse of power by the mods.
This is why the wiki says that the DAs are not mods, and that they are there to review punishments and keep the chat from descending into disorder. At no point does it say that the DAs are in charge of handing out punishment. They are there to decide whether or not it should be done, and if it was done, whether it was appropriate.
To use a simple example: Mods are to DAs as law enforcement is to the judicial system.
The wiki also says all permission givers are mods. Last I checked, VM was a half-op. Maslab and Plat, also listed as mods, are no longer mods. I seem to remember them (and you) being voted on to be mods in the old channel. This is not the case here.
... Mods and DAs weren't supposed to be the same people. Did that change?
~Neshomeh
..then Dann should not be a DA or mod, since he has full mod powers. I'm just rather confused how mods came about. DAs were discussed in full on the board. I guess mods were not?
To quote the article you linked, "Note the following carefully: DAs are not mods. DAs are not meant to be mods. DAs are the balance to the mods' power. Hence why they have the authority to review bans."
Mods are a built-in feature of having an IRC, though. July's automatically a mod because she started the channel; presumably, other people are mods so that there's a mod in the room when she isn't.
~Neshomeh
That mods should be voted on. With the exception of July, since she is channel founder, of course. I also wish that this had been discussed on the board, since apparently I was busy when this came up in the IRC.
A while ago. And Dann wrote up rules, the Board consented to them, and wiki articles were made, and you've linked to one of them.
I'm confused about where this is coming from, frankly.
~Neshomeh
But I'm almost positive the mod thing was not. If you look at the wiki, all of the listed mods were first selected as DAs. At least, I remember them being voted on. For whatever reason, Maslab and Plat, who were listed as mods in the old channel, are no longer mods. Again, it seems that things have changed after the move, but I might be wrong there. I don't know- July told me in the IRC the new way things work was discussed in the IRC, and not on the board. That seems off, somehow, seeing as she herself claims the board is the heart of the community, and the last major decision (the DAs) was discussed on the board.
A newbie had asked whether or not they should post to the board as well, rather than only be present in the chatroom. I told them the board was the heart of the community because there is a permanence to it, as compared to the chatroom.