Subject: Yes.
Author:
Posted on: 2012-04-09 20:48:00 UTC
That was actually easier to handle when the threads weren't bumped.
*takes out a cane* Back in my days, we'd have told them to get a room. Now get off my lawn!
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On spurious complaints. by
on 2012-04-05 19:32:00 UTC
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Okay, here's the thing: this PPC Board of ours used to be a hive of activity. We regularly scrolled the entire Front Page in the space of maybe two days. We had ongoing multi-person discussions, and - important point - the tail end of the archives was being deleted on a regular basis.
Nowadays, the last post (once I post this) hasn't been added to since the 1st (ie, 5 days or so), the only long conversations are between two people (Himochi and AnnaBee, Himochi and Aeidhryn, and Himochi and AnnaBee again), and the entire contents of the Board is saved permanently back to around October 2008.
This being the case, can we please stop telling people off for making new threads? The circumstances which made the non-rule necessary are long since past. Most people here - including some of those who are complaining about it - weren't even around then. So please, can we stop?
hS, still having some hope for the PPC despite the fact that my wife says it's useless -
So, since active threads get bumped now... by
on 2012-04-09 20:34:00 UTC
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Would it be reasonable for the aforementioned long conversations between 2-3 people to be taken to e-mail or IM or something when they start to make long blank white spaces on the Board? Or, at least wrap the conversation back to a new line from the original post to limit the horizontal stretching and resulting blank whiteness?
If nothing else, is there maybe a setting that would limit the stretching?
~Neshomeh -
Indeed by
on 2012-04-11 13:09:00 UTC
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I think that we should maybe put some limits on long conversations. It just gets confusing to see ultra long threads that don't really go anywhere.
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Well... by
on 2012-04-11 13:52:00 UTC
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Long conversations and threads that don't go anywhere are okay—silliness, serious discussions, and having fun are all in Da Rules, after all. {= P I'm just talking about board-distorting ones that could easily be relocated, as is the case if they're just between a couple of people; and if we could fix the board-distorting effect, I don't think it would even be an issue.
~Neshomeh -
Sah-geh by
on 2012-04-11 12:14:00 UTC
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If threads get bumped for being posted in now, we need a way to post without bumping for if we notice that we made a typo, or if there is some other reason we need to post that doesn't warrant the full conversation getting jumped back to the top.
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I agree (nm) by
on 2012-04-11 13:23:00 UTC
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Re: So, since active threads get bumped now... by
on 2012-04-10 17:04:00 UTC
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I have a widescreen Full HD monitor and the stretch is still tremendous!
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Yes. by
on 2012-04-09 20:48:00 UTC
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That was actually easier to handle when the threads weren't bumped.
*takes out a cane* Back in my days, we'd have told them to get a room. Now get off my lawn! -
Yeah.... by
on 2012-04-09 20:36:00 UTC
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My netbook is feeling the stretch, badly.
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Somewhat belated and lengthy response by
on 2012-04-06 03:18:00 UTC
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Communities change over time. Sometimes for the better, and sometimes for the worse. There are reasons that the Board doesn't have those large longspanning conversations anymore.
The board isn't equipped for this sort of numbers. Look through the last few pages. At any given point, an extremely large portion of the threads are newbies posting a thread to say hi. Or posting another new badfic thread. There isn't much room for actual discussion or conversation or games in all that with how we are currently organized.
The PPC is unique. Or at least, it was. We can't have those sort of conversations due to how many newbies are around that have no idea what's going on or what it'd be about. We can't get them involved before another pack shows up! There's no time or space for a round of Fill the Plotholes, or a seasonally appropriate fight with water or snow or mud.
Beyond that, most of them aren't used to operating with something that allows for multi-linear multi-person conversations. How are we supposed to have any long conversations about anything when there's so many new people around? We don't know them. They don't know most PPC stuff. Fandoms in common are becoming increasingly rarer.
A nice long discussion about LotR? Barely any LotR fans around anymore. The first part of the Hobbit is going to likely be in theaters by the end of this year. There's been a vast flow of articles, trailers, and shots from the filming. None of this has been on the board.
A long conversation about the PPC? How are they supposed to take part? So many of them are so green they are still asking stuff that would be answered if read the original series, or even the newbie stuff on the wiki.
I would love to see actual discussion on the board, but there's so much that we can't really do anymore because there's not the necessary base of knowledge.
It also prevents those long fun things, too.
Snowball fight? Well, that's not going to last very long. It'll drop off the front page within a couple days because of newbies wandering in.
Shipfic fest? The last one didn't last very long either, between the aforementioned newbie thread swarm that seems to be a constant these days, and the newbies being reluctant to take part.
Traditions can only be maintained when there is a sizeable enough group to continue it and that know about it. You can't argue about things no longer happening when people barely know each other or know about things that are in theory held in common.
The PPC's current system is obsolete. We cannot have this many people and have it be rules and order minimal and be on a single board like this, but still expect everything to go on perfectly fine, because things are not actually going on perfectly fine as it is.
I just spent the last few hours looking through the last several pages of the board. The criticisms you had about the board as it is now are very minute. They don't address the real problem. If we don't make some changes, rehaul where we have the PPC set up and how the writer side of it is handled, this will be a shell of a fictional organization without a good community of writers and readers behind it.
Things need to change. Whether it needs to be with actual rules and order, or a new board, or even both, I don't know, but looking back and thinking to Ye Golden Days- any of ours- and complaining how it should return to that will not fix the problems.
July, now with 100% less bee guns, but still grumpy because this distracted her from finishing the survey up for this year, and now she is going to have to add even more questions to it and remove the starfish. -
... by
on 2012-04-08 20:36:00 UTC
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*feels bad about the long newbie post*
*feels bad about still needing to watch LotR*
*feels bad about it all*
...*sad face* -
Whoa, there. by
on 2012-04-08 20:47:00 UTC
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No need for sad faces here!
Hold very, very still while I get a machete so we can ensure that you never have to make a sad face in the future...
If we do this right it will hardly hurt! -
W-wah! by
on 2012-04-08 20:50:00 UTC
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P-please don' attack me with a machete!
I'll smile! I will! See => :D
P-please leave my face alone!
[(Leave the human's face alone. I need a host body.)] -
I am not thoroughly convinced. by
on 2012-04-08 20:55:00 UTC
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In fact, I suspect that smile is forced. We might need to make sure to fix that, too.
Nurse Maslab will be assisting me in the operation today. -
No! by
on 2012-04-08 20:57:00 UTC
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*cowers in corner* P-please don't hurt me... P-PLEASE!
*pulls out Italy's white flag and waves* -
The operation won't hurt a bit. by
on 2012-04-08 20:59:00 UTC
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The mallet that my lovely assistant will be using to knock you out, however...~
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*dons scrubs, gloves, and a mask* by
on 2012-04-08 20:57:00 UTC
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Ready to assist, ma'am!
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Okay, so the board just hates me today. *html fix* (nm) by
on 2012-04-06 03:20:00 UTC
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And I disagree. by
on 2012-04-06 04:50:00 UTC
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We've had this discussion before, but my position hasn't changed. I do not think a complete rehaul of a system that (for the overwhelming majority of the time) works just fine, is in order. Mainly, I don't think an influx of newbies is cause for panic. I would be slightly aghast at an influx of mods and admins, though, and I suspect that's still the majority view.
(On the other hand, I would not be opposed to a 'Board with software that allows us to have sections optional to view, or something. As long as it did not involve an influx of authority.) -
Inclined to agree with this... by
on 2012-04-06 04:55:00 UTC
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Suddenly, admins? We've seen how well this hasn't worked on the IRC...
(That said, I'm toying with ideas for more interesting Board software. We'll see if I can come up with something usable...) -
Disagreeing with your agreement. by
on 2012-04-06 15:35:00 UTC
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Or perhaps simply not understanding it. As time goes on, I'm more uncertain as to why admins should be such an anathema. Okay, we've never had them before, but that isn't evidence that we don't need them now, or that they would be a bad thing. Why are rules bad? Why is it bad to have people whose role it is to enforce them?
Anarchy is great when everyone knows everyone else and they all get along most of the time. However, that isn't the case here and now. As July pointed out, most of us barely know the newest members, and there's hardly time to get to know them before the next crop turns up. With more complexity comes a need for more order to hold it together. Why is this additional order so disagreeable to contemplate?
~Neshomeh -
What role would they fulfil? by
on 2012-04-08 17:18:00 UTC
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Given in particular the bumpy nature the Board now has - what would an admin achieve that can't better be done by group consensus? There /aren't/ arguments on the Board which go on and on, and when people do something they shouldn't, people tell them to stop - and they do.
hS -
That's not my question, though. by
on 2012-04-09 02:13:00 UTC
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July said "something has to change, whether it's the Board or the rules or whatever, because what we've got right now isn't working." Dann and VM automatically went "I disagree because admins are bad!" which a) has nothing to do with July's argument and b) is not founded on evidence I'm aware of.
My question is, why are admins automatically a terrible idea? You point out that we probably don't need them at this point, and that's fine, but it also doesn't address the question of why Dann and VM (and whoever else) hate the very idea of ever having them, ever, perhaps including hypothetical situations in which they'd be useful.
To answer your question, an admin can make quick decisions, whereas group consensus takes time. Also, an admin is specifically obligated to resolve problems as they arise, whereas relying on the honor system can mean belated reactions or none at all if everyone goes about their business figuring someone else will do it.
Also, as Miah points out, those of us who do tend to step up more when situations arise may already be de facto admins. If that's the case, then hating the idea of them makes even less sense to me.
~Neshomeh -
From here, it was precedent. by
on 2012-04-09 13:28:00 UTC
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Which is, I am aware, probably not the best excuse. But from every conversation we've had about what needs to change, ever, "change" seems to mean "more authority." Which bothers me a lot, for the reasons stated above.
Though you're right, it wasn't an issue at this point, and I'm sorry for jumping to conclusions. -
So... (warning, train-of-thought rambling within) by
on 2012-04-09 17:39:00 UTC
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More authority bothers you because, from what I glean from your reply to July, you don't think it's necessary right now, and also because we haven't had it before?
That still doesn't add up to a case for "authority is inherently bad and we should never have it," though. Is it bad authority you're worried about? Or is it that you don't personally want to be it? Or... what?
We do already have authority figures, actually. The Permission Givers are authority figures, even if we only have power when it comes to granting Permission or not. Power and authority aren't the same thing—authority comes in part from knowing what you're talking about, doing things, and being respected for your words and actions. In my experience, PGs tend to get nominated because their authority in PPC matters is already acknowledged and accepted. As it goes, authority is a good and desirable quality in a PG—and heck, it's not like we have a monopoly on it. I personally think it would be awesome if more people stepped up and became authorities on the PPC, and comfortable with it, too, so they didn't feel like they had to say "I'm not a PG, but..." or "I'm new, but..." in front of everything. That's the way I remember it being—people stepping up to help each other, and not being afraid to be wrong, and able to gracefully accept correction if it were needed. ("Oops, I was wrong. I'll do/know better next time—thanks!" as opposed to "OMG I'm so sorry I'll never ever do it again pleasedon'thurtme!" What are people afraid is going to happen if they make mistakes and get corrected, I wonder? Also, the former's a lot more sincere and worthy of respect, IMO; the latter's practically self-defeating.)
Moving on... maybe we're not even talking about authority being bad, but rather power? Admins by definition have power, but then again, even if we did make some, they'd only have whatever power and authority the group decided on for them. The Nameless Admin, for instance, has the power to delete threads and mess with the Board settings in general, but only has the authority to do so when asked, save in obvious cases of spam attack.
The PGs have little power, but lots of authority; the Nameless Admin has a lot of power, but little authority. Are you worried about creating something with lots of power and lots of authority?
... TL;DR, I'm still struggling to understand exactly what you mean.
~Neshomeh -
de facto admins by
on 2012-04-06 19:27:00 UTC
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I'd say that we really already have people who are admins in everything but title. Is there really anyone here who doesn't trust Dann and Neshomeh's judgment?
For right or wrong, I know that whenever there is any kind of drama or disagreement or serious matter at hand that I eagerly await their weigh in. There are a few others, but both Dann and Neshomeh have said something here in this thread. I'd say that in everything but name, they already are admins.
Sorry if it's not something you guys would want, but I at least, and I think most others, see you as very level headed and really as an authority figure. (One that is liked, respected, and approachable--not one that is resented, feared, and distant.) -
Also, July didn't say anything about admins. O.o (nm) by
on 2012-04-06 15:37:00 UTC
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I agree. by
on 2012-04-06 04:12:00 UTC
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The current system as stands does not best serve the needs of the PPC community - as I see it, anyway. Both the guidelines of the organization itself and the Board need to be updated so as to better accommodate everyone, be they newbies or veterans.
I would very much be in favor of moving to a new board/forum; one with separate subsections, so that newbies could introduce themselves in one area and people could post missions in another, or something. There could be a section dedicated to things like the snowball/water fights or the goofiness of Fanficland - heck, there could even be something for extended play-by-post roleplaying.
Polishing up the Constitution is a nice start, but I personally don't think it's enough. The PPC needs some adjustment if we want to thrive as a community. -
A new Board sounds nice. (nm) by
on 2012-04-06 04:52:00 UTC
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Good luck with that by
on 2012-04-06 04:46:00 UTC
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The last time me and Data argued for a new board we were shut down. I've given up. At this point, I've resigned myself to be stuck with this lovely bit of obsolete technology some here seem so fond of.
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As to that-- by
on 2012-04-06 15:53:00 UTC
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Speaking as a long-time proponent of this Board, I'm currently feeling like the other side has a fairly strong argument if this one really isn't up to handling the large number of people it's been getting in recent years. It's not doing anyone any favors if the newbies literally can't integrate and the oldbies spend much of their time being frustrated with the newbies.
I personally don't like forums where everything is packed up in a separate box, because I worry that it will end up with certain people stuck in certain boxes so that they'll never have any contact with the people in the other boxes, but thinking about it lately, maybe there's some sort of compromise—a board with boxes that also has a prominent "most recent" feed, or similar?
~Neshomeh -
Speaking of new boards... by
on 2012-04-07 03:51:00 UTC
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I'm sorta hacking away on a prototype for a new board, with various interesting features. If anypony out there is interested in doing some Ruby on Rails, give me a poke?
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Um, question. by
on 2012-04-08 04:18:00 UTC
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Since a lot of what people complain about is the lack of thread bumping... er, is there any reason you haven't toggled the setting to sort threads by activity here?
hS -
One reason... by
on 2012-04-08 05:42:00 UTC
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It's well enough hidden that I've never stumbled across it. That said, I have no objections to flipping the switch and seeing what happens.
In the long term, there are some issues I'd like to resolve that I don't think the current Board will be able to give us (strong logins / anti-spoofing measures, for one, and I shudder to think about how secure it probably isn't), but that's a different discussion. -
Granted. by
on 2012-04-08 05:46:00 UTC
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There /are/ flaws with the Board, but given that that one's such a big issue, we might well want to try it out.
It's under Appearance, in the Threads tab, I think. Show by Posted/Somethingelse. It's fairly clear once you're that far in.
hS -
...There's a setting for that?! (nm) by
on 2012-04-08 04:53:00 UTC
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It's hidden. by
on 2012-04-08 04:57:00 UTC
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I went looking for it and didn't find it, even, but yourwebapps have a forum, and someone (one person ever) asked about it. So yes, there /is/ a setting.
All these years...!
hS -
Boards by
on 2012-04-07 19:04:00 UTC
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Since we're discussing whether we should go to a new board, I would like to point out that the Board is much more like a mailing list than a modern-day internet forum. If any work is done on a new board, we should try to keep some of those mailing-list-like qualities. Come to think of it, an email-based "ppc-talk" might not be a terrible idea.
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I agree with this! by
on 2012-04-08 18:13:00 UTC
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If discussion threads are still structured like they are now, I would love an email notification system on the hypothetical new board.
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Expanding on my post by
on 2012-04-08 22:47:00 UTC
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In my opinion, one of the good things about the current PPC board is the lack of subforums or any other kind of compartmentalization because it lets everyone see most of the PPC's going-ons just by scrolling down. It also, like others have said, prevents community fragmentation. I posted to note that this "one Board" arrangement is more like the mailing lists created with software such as Mailman than the typical internet forum. I spoke up to show support for the current way of organizing threads.
Since I'm already rambling about this, what do you all think about moving to a mailing list? -
Um. Not so much? by
on 2012-04-09 13:31:00 UTC
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I think we can fix that problem without changing the entire base of the 'Board. It is, in point of fact, a forum, though a strange and outdated one. I, and I think most people, would not be a fan of changing that - among other things, that seems much harder to organize and keep track of. If someone wanted to start a mailing list, some people might be interested, but I think most of the community would find it a difficult change, and it would be rather difficult for newbies to get into.
Just my opinion, but I think we're better off organizing without changing the nature of the 'Board that drastically. -
Do we really need a greater calamity to happen? by
on 2012-04-06 10:05:00 UTC
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I don't want to see the board being hacked by a troll who's actually competent.
So I'm voting for a new software. One where one HTML typo doesn't mess up everything. *le cough* -
Hmm... by
on 2012-04-05 22:54:00 UTC
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I'm somewhat amused that I'm one of the few people making the long conversations, haha~
I knew I rambled, but... XD
It seems slightly... depressing, I guess, to see that the board is slow compared to what it apparently used to be like.
I hope the board picks up again, despite having never known what it was like back when it was really busy.
...I might try and recruit people to the cause, maybe. I know I'm not the only person I know IRL who hates badfics. -
...I'm sorry... by
on 2012-04-05 22:46:00 UTC
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I don't mean to hog the entire board! :c I need to stop being so Newbie Ranger Excitement Pink-y and talk a lot less.
...It does seem like this board is slowly dying. :c -
Be pink, my friend, be pink! by
on 2012-04-14 01:09:00 UTC
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Excitement and enjoyment is fun!
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No need to apologize. by
on 2012-04-05 22:57:00 UTC
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Huinesoron was talking about people shutting threads down, not making new ones. People bouncing and being friendly is what we need more of. You're in no way being problematic right now.
(That said, haven't you been here one month? A bit less time than needed to watch a slow death, I'd think. :P) -
:) Thanks. by
on 2012-04-05 23:21:00 UTC
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Hehehe... Well, that's good to hear. I tend to be a spaz in real life, and you know how the Internet can... accentuate your flaws. :3
I meant compared to the way people talk about what it used to be. :P I feel like I'm coming into a movie in the middle or something. -
Re: On spurious complaints. by
on 2012-04-05 21:40:00 UTC
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Okay. Before I being in earnest, let me apologize in advance if any part of the following post seems overly confrontational or aggressive. My intention isn't to pick a fight; I just want to air my reaction to some of the things in your post.
Regarding posts: I believe that there are still circumstances that require the guidelines regarding new threads. The Board may not move as fast as it did in the past, but you have to realize that many people are not checking the Board every day, or possibly even every few days. If someone in their well-intentioned naiveté puts up a great deal of new threads, those PPCers who swing by on an irregular basis might miss something. New missions or announcements can get knocked down the page by repetitive or redundant threads - out of sight, out of mind.
I'd also like to think that we're not "telling people off." We're not insulting or haranguing people who create a lot of new threads; we're just giving them a little nudge, is all.
Finally, what really got me steamed was the little comment about you "still having some hope for the PPC despite the fact that [your] wife says it's useless." This addition is uncalled for, unnecessary, and a little insulting. Framing it as being someone else's opinion doesn't help. By saying that you still "have hope," you portray the PPC as something in decline, a group that has fallen out of a Golden Age. The statement suggests that those in the PPC now don't compare to those writers who have already come and gone. Criticize if you must, but don't wound us with backhanded praise.
PC -
In addition by
on 2012-04-05 21:47:00 UTC
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I would also like to point out that the IRC channel exists. You (hS, not PC) may have voiced your dislike of it several times in the past, but that doesn't change the fact that not only does it exist, it is the most active hub for the PPC, and that several people, myself included, have mentioned that they prefer the IRC to the board because it's more active.
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Responses. by
on 2012-04-05 22:04:00 UTC
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I've expressed dislike of the IRC before, true - but only (I hope) on a personal level. I don't like it, but that doesn't mean other people can't. So I'm very glad it's active. And I wasn't complaining about the inactivity of the Board - just pointing out that times change. Part of that is because the action has moved to the IRC - and that's okay.
And yes, if people post multiple threads in a row, that would be worth mentioning. But that's not what's happening. What's happening is that people are making a thread for a badfic or goodfic when there is another thread on a similar topic somewhere down the board - in one case, a full eight posts below (that is, halfway down). And yes, they are being told off - the two posts on the front page have subject lines 'Chill out' and 'Should have read'.
As to my signoff - it actually is my wife's opinion, she keeps telling me to give up, and since she's been a member of the PPC longer than literally anyone else currently on the Board, she might know what she's talking about. ;) But it's not about the writing, and it's not about the new people. It's specifically about this ongoing tendency towards the authoritarian - rules, regulations, etc.
But I have hope. Yes, I do. A few years back every story written seemed to be trying to be bigger and more disastrous than the last - there's even a Theory about it. That was a trend which ended, largely because we as a community said it should.
And that's the heart of this. The PPC is a community first and foremost - a community of equals. People being reprimanded for posting In The Wrong Way is not the action of equals - it's a way of saying Obey, For I Have Been Here Longer. And I don't like that.
Even though I'm kind of implicitly doing it. ;) But I hope I'm not. What I'm trying to do - what I hope I'm vaguely succeeding at - is say that we don't need rules for the sake of rules. This is still the PPC - the glorious, anarchistic PPC of the past ten years. I don't think we've changed that much. I don't think there's a 'Golden Age' that's passed - maybe for the stories (since Jay and Acacia aren't still here), but not for the community.
So I applaud the IRC's activity even as I detest it, and I say we don't need to tell each other off - even as I sort of do it - because I've seen what the PPC is, and I want it to stay that way.
hS, who jelly caterpillar squib -
Solutions? by
on 2012-04-14 01:09:00 UTC
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Is there a way for us to have some sort of Events sidebar or page that is dedicated specifically to new arrivals, marriages, birthdays, re-discoverings, and that sort of thing?
I would indeed enjoy having some more-than-four-person conversations.
"And that's the heart of this. The PPC is a community first and foremost - a community of equals. People being reprimanded for posting In The Wrong Way is not the action of equals - it's a way of saying Obey, For I Have Been Here Longer. And I don't like that."
I would agree, but I would also like to say that sometimes the reasons they say Obey are, well, reasonable. -
Is it spurious, though? by
on 2012-04-05 22:20:00 UTC
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Part of what we're asking people to do when we ask them not to make redundant threads is to read what's already present before saying something. I'm not convinced asking PPCers (or anyone) to read first and talk second is at all spurious.
I'm in total agreement with PC about the backhanded remarks, by the way, and I can speak for Phobos about this, too. This may not be the same PPC you and I joined back in 2003, but that's just how it goes. Change happens; some negative things have happened, sure, but some positive ones, too. If you want to make positive change going forward, please try not to alienate the current membership. I'm not sure anyone's going to be won over by all the hypocrisy going on in your latest post, lampshaded or not. If you've got a sound argument, you don't need it.
Also, when someone joined has nothing to do with how much they know about what's going on currently.
~Neshomeh -
All right, then I apologise. by
on 2012-04-05 22:34:00 UTC
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If the opinion of the membership of the Board is that the current course of action is the correct one to take, I apologise for complaining. I also apologise for my remarks in their entirety. My intention was not to alienate anyone, but to highlight what I saw as an issue. I was wrong. I'm sorry.
hS -
Don't misunderstand me. by
on 2012-04-05 22:59:00 UTC
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Complaining isn't wrong, so you don't have to apologize for that. Being wrong isn't wrong, either, so long as you're open to being brought around if it turns out you are.
Material irrelevant to the central argument should be avoided, though, especially if it's likely to annoy the people you're trying to convince.
~Neshomeh -
Er. You're by no means alone, though. by
on 2012-04-05 22:48:00 UTC
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Although I'd agree that the PPC has changed, change happens, the IRC is important, constant Badfic!threads are eh, and so on and so forth, I think you're seriously onto something there.
I really miss the long, silly conversations that were occasionally not much more than two people being silly at each other. Although the issues with thread-explosions are there, I am entirely of the opinion that we've swung too far in the other direction. I can see a "Hey, there's a badfic thread down there, let's try and keep things organized?" thread. But these days, newbies don't even get that. They get smacked down for not knowing every single rule that everyone in the PPC has agreed on, despite possibly never having been here before - I see this constantly. People pop up without reading the Wiki to say hi, and on their second thread ever, three people jump down their throat for not having taken notes on the FAQ. This site used to be welcoming and friendly; nowadays, if you prefer friendly conversation over wombats and towels, you're in the wrong place.
I wince every time I see someone's thread get shut down, because it means one more person who's going to be discouraged from posting again. If people responded this way back when I started posting here, I most likely wouldn't have stayed - and trust me, my initial posts were a lot more annoying than the stuff that gets put up now.
In short, I think the truth is somewhere in between. Change is good, yes, but some things - like being friendly about rules, not authoritarian - really... shouldn't. - You were saying? by on 2012-04-16 15:10:00 UTC Reply
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Just this one bit... by
on 2012-04-05 23:14:00 UTC
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"I wince every time I see someone's thread get shut down, because it means one more person who's going to be discouraged from posting again."
I find this so true, because the amount of websites I've joined, only to never return because of people being overly angry about these sorts of things, rather than being friendly and pointing out the newbie's mistakes... -
From the other side, though... by
on 2012-04-05 23:24:00 UTC
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Those of us who have been here for years and years have seen LOTS of these posts. Hundreds, probably. Actually getting angry about it is too much, I agree, but please understand that it's frustrating to have to tell new people the same thing over and over again.
Also, there are LOTS of new people these days, far more than there ever were before. It's one thing if we only have one newbie a month, and we correct them once and they learn and don't do it again. When ten newbies show up in a week and all of them are finding badfic and have questions and post new threads for each one... it's dizzying.
Again, snapping about it is bad, but do you see what I mean?
~Neshomeh -
Yeah, I see your point... by
on 2012-04-05 23:31:00 UTC
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Hm... I get what you mean, it must be irritating seeing the same mistakes over and over...
Hm... I keep finding badfics myself, but I'm planning on collecting quite a few and adding them all in one huge post... or maybe I'll just add them to an existing thread. -
Speaking of... by
on 2012-04-05 23:28:00 UTC
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How do so many people keep finding us anyways? I know we aren't exactly /hiding/, but there a quite a lot of newbies coming in. Did someone put up another link somewhere?
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Re: Speaking of... by
on 2012-04-08 09:09:00 UTC
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I wiki-walked myself to the PPC trope page on TVTtrope.org. From there, I got to the PPC wiki then here. It isn't so hard to find out about PPC, actually.
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Well... by
on 2012-04-05 23:53:00 UTC
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For me, I was trying to explain what a Mary Sue was to my friend that I was attempting to co-write with. She actually made up an entire Mary-Sue Greek Goddess, that was the final straw. I decided to give her some remedial Anti-Sue-Writing therapy, started googling a working definition of Mary Sue... and then I discovered the Original Series.
...Actually, as part of therapy, I wound up sending Jaycacia after all her Sues before I found out that that was sort of frowned upon... >////> So I'm sorry for pulling them out of retirement yet again, that was me. -
Do you actually mean Jaycacia? by
on 2012-04-05 23:57:00 UTC
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Because that would be disturbingly awesome. She totally needs an actual mission... I mean like totes 4reelz!!1
hS -
o.O by
on 2012-04-06 00:23:00 UTC
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Wow. Woooooow.
No. Until this moment, I didn't know such a (hilariously) noxious personage existed. XD
This was JUST after I'd read the Original Series, so I didn't know that the PPC existed as a web board and things. As soon as I found out, I wanted MOAR and joined up... then I learned that Jay and Acacia were retired and I should NOT have used them to kill off her Sue!Goddess, anyway. -
Maybe somewhere in the middle? by
on 2012-04-05 23:08:00 UTC
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I agree with HuineSoron and VixenMage. I'm still relatively new, and I still remember my first few months. I was nervous about saying or doing the wrong thing and getting people angry at me. Had I done something that got that reaction, I probably would've stopped posting out of shame.
I don't see anything wrong with AnnaBee and HimochiIsAwesome having a long conversation. Sure, it makes things sink to the bottom of the board, but if it's a mission then it should be going onto the front page of the wiki anyways.
Perhaps gentle reminders to look at the wiki before asking questions would work more than just yelling. Maybe a warning system should be put into place?
Also, when there's a badfic thread already on the front page, but not towards the top, it has less of a chance of getting seen. That might be why new threads keep popping up; because either A. The person hasn't seen the previous thread, or B. Because they think that no one else will see the old thread.
Maybe if there were a way so that threads that get new posts get moved up to the top? -
VM's already noted... by
on 2012-04-05 23:31:00 UTC
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... but I'll do so again, since I was clearly pretty, er, unclear (in that my clarity was not clear... is this Repetitive Department of Repetition material, do we think?):
I wasn't complaining about AnnaBee and Himochi's conversations; quite the opposite. But my point was that it was just two people, and thus wouldn't be a loss to the community if it left the front page, since they can easily continue it on page 2. Something like The Snowfight, on the other hand, or any of the debates we've had, would be something that had to stay on the front page.
hS -
Crazy idea... by
on 2012-04-05 23:17:00 UTC
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I have a crazy idea. It's a rule. It's not a real rule that imposes penalties or things like that, so perhaps, its more of a suggestion. So, I guess I'm suggesting a suggestion.
Perhaps badfic threads should be encouraged to have some kind of uniform title. Seriously, titles like "AHH!!! MY EYES!" or "The author would be sad" are not terribly amusing or interesting, and they make it harder to quickly spot a badfic thread. I blame this for much of the redundant posting, though that might not be the case.
So my suggestion: Encourage future badfic threads to clearly say, in their title, that they are a badfic reporting thread. They can keep the silly titles, since saying that they can't is really against the spirit of the PPC, but ending with something like "(Badfic reporting thread)" would help make things clearer. At least, I think so. -
Yeah, this might help. by
on 2012-04-06 01:33:00 UTC
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How do we get people to do it, though? Remembering that part of the present issue is that people don't know or don't remember about not making redundant threads, I'm wondering how to solve these issues in general. Maybe these "more guidelines than actual rules but please follow them anyway" sorts of things should be up in the Board's header, or something like that?
(Are we then allowed to be publicly annoyed if people still don't do them?)
~Neshomeh -
Do people read the header? by
on 2012-04-06 02:04:00 UTC
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Do people, in fact, read the Constitution? They're emphatically commanded to, but I do wonder.
If they do, then I suspect it might be time for a Constitution Part 2 to go alongside it. (Actually it would be more sensible to rewrite the Constitution from the ground up, but I don't want to suggest that)
hS
PS: If we do have a new/part 2 constitution, can I suggest we make it signable? -
Actually... by
on 2012-04-06 02:15:00 UTC
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I'm with you on revising the Constitution. I've also been leery of suggesting it.
Can't say whether people read the stuff up there, either way. If they don't, though, then we're really left with no alternative to personally spelling the rules out to everyone when they show up and/or when they do something wrong.
~Neshomeh -
Want me to take a look at it? by
on 2012-04-06 02:28:00 UTC
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If it's a revision rather than a replacement, I can take a look and see what still needs to be there, what can go, what needs adding, etc. Then I can throw it before the Board with options, rather than just giving an open question (because we all know what PPCers do with an open question...).
hS -
What about... by
on 2012-04-06 02:45:00 UTC
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A GDoc project? 'Cause I'd like to be in on it, and possibly a few others would, too. I also have a notion of putting forth the final suggestions as an itemized list, so each thing can be easily approved/disapproved by the Board at large.
We can form a constitutional committee. It'll sound all historical and stuff. {= )
~Neshomeh -
Ask and you shall starfish. by
on 2012-04-06 03:01:00 UTC
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I've thrown you a link, and feel free to invite anyone else who wants to participate.
Hey, does anyone else want to help rewrite the founding document of the Board?
... okay, retconning myself here, just figured out how to use GDocs more effectively, so:
This is the Articles of the Constitution working project. Anyone can comment on it, but editing is currently limited to myself and Neshomeh (first come, first starfish stars I need to get starfish out of my brain). Let's see what we can do.
We, the PPC-Boarders, in order to form a more perfect Message Board, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the well-being and sanity (or insanity) of all.
hS
hS -
Did you say "open question"? Where? I vote starfish! (nm) by
on 2012-04-06 02:36:00 UTC
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I am THIS close (>- by
on 2012-04-06 02:42:00 UTC
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... to just up and replacing the entire constitution with the word 'Starfish' in 100-point Comic Sans, just for giggles.
hS -
To think that's all my fault. (nm) by
on 2012-04-06 03:04:00 UTC
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Strange idea, too? by
on 2012-04-06 01:50:00 UTC
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Put it in information given to newbies in intro threads? Also, repost that message at the beginning of every badfic thread.
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Dude! Get out of my head! :P by
on 2012-04-06 00:32:00 UTC
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Just kidding, but I was thinking much the same thing. I haven't been paying incredibly close attention to the Board lately, and I've wondered, "Another badfic thread? Where?" a few times on the 'please don't double post this stuff' things.
It's possibly just my weirdness in liking things all orderly and everything, but I really like this idea. It's kind of like the idea from a while back about labeling the missions as mission--agent--department--fandom or some variation on that, so people would immediately see what it was. Okay. Done rambling. :D -
I was about to suggest... by
on 2012-04-05 23:36:00 UTC
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... a separate Board for badfic plugs (like we have one for RPs and emergencies), but then I realised that some badfic threads spin off into that wild OTness that characterises the PPC. Neshomeh and Araeph started discussing semantics on the last one, which is awesome - and should be on the Board so anyone can join in. So my theory (that the threads consist entirely of 'Link! Linklink! Goodness that's terrible! Linklinklink!') was wrong, and so was the suggestion I never made.
hS -
:( by
on 2012-04-05 20:30:00 UTC
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I hope you're right about the board reviving; I love PPC fiction as a rule, even if some of the fics reviewed make me want to gouge out my eyes with a rusty spork.