You say you're part of the PPC, and then you say that you don't like what the PPC is doing. However, you're not willing to tell us who you are in the PPC because you want to stay in the PPC while still despising it.

Am I missing something here?

... then they're too young to be online unsupervised.

We've heard pretty much all of these protest before, you know. That's why we wrote an entire article explaining exactly what we do and what we don't do. Most of your accusations fall into the latter category.

I agree that flaming is horrible - that's pretty much its definition, in my mind - but any personal attack on an adult is just as shameful. Bringing up a "woe! the children, think of the children!" argument isn't going to change that. Flaming of anyone is bad, and that's why we have a rule (an enfored rule, as far as that is possible) against it.

Also, if a child decides they're grown-up enough to post their work on the internet, not in a children-only zone, then they will be treated like everyone else. To demand otherwise would be like putting a two-year-old's finger painting in the Louvre and then shout at anyone who dares suggest it might need work. We, as readers and reviewers, are not obliged to check an author's (claimed) age before we're allowed to think, "That wasn't very good." I refer you back to the article linked above.

Other people have already responded to your post and done it so eloquently that I don't have anything to add, except this:

I looked up the authors of the fics I already have sporked and the one I'm currently working on. Their ages are 20, not stated, and 18. Two out of the three are definitely not children. They are grown women.
The fact that many badfic writers write like 12-yearolds do not mean that they actually are under-age. In fact, I'll bet you dollars to donuts, that the PPC could make a collective promise to not take on fics by writers known to be under age and it would do nothing for the frequency or content of our missions.

You don't like what we do, or consider it flaming? Fine, you are free to have your opinion and to voice it here, as long as you are civil about it, which you are.
But trying to paint us as cyberbullies who target children? You are only making yourself sound like one of those people who shout 'Think of the children!' because they have no facts or rational arguments to back up their opinion.
If you want to have a debate about whether or not what we do is flaming or bashing, that is acceptable, even encouraged, but for your own sake, leave the 'little kids' out of this.

Do I think it impossible for a member of the PPC to cross the line? No, we're human, and humans are imperfect. We all have bad days and sometimes people post without thinking.

BUT, and this is the important part, it is not considered acceptable behavior. Poking fun at badly written stories? That's fine, in fact I've poked fun at stuff I've written that was bad. And believe me, I've written some bad stuff. I just haven't shared any of it.

I agree with you that bullying is wrong, I've been a victim of it myself. I've attended schools with bullying epidemics. Some of my mental health issues are related to that bullying. I know the difference between criticism and bullying. I've not witnessed the latter from the PPC, if I had I wouldn't be here.

I'm not going to really spend a whole lot of time talking about the actual post from our anonymous friend. I think most of you have covered that fairly well. I do want to bring to your attention something that I have noticed in recent times.

Self-censoring, or rather, the lack thereof.

I think it is great that everyone is standing up and saying that we don't flame and we don't bash authors. This should be the case. However, it isn't entirely true, is it?

I am, by nature, a lurker. I sit in the corner and watch what is going on. What I have seen disturbs me sometimes. I've voiced these concerns to the people involved, in the form of a warning as part of my position as DA in the chat or here on the Board. I think it is time I bring these issues to the forefront.

First: This is the one we are working on. I have seen a number of occasions of author bashing in the chat. We are working on this one, so I am not as worried about it. When it comes up, I remind everyone that it is Not Cool. They apologize and stop. This is what we want to happen. What we don't want is for it to start back up the next time a badfic is mentioned.

Some of you will tell me that it is in the heat of the moment and you can't control it. I will tell you this only once; I Don't Care. If you can't control what you are saying then keep your mouth shut until you can. This goes for swearing, as well, though I will not get into that here.

Second: I can think of at least one mission recently that had author bashing in it. This one is the really worrying one. This is completely unacceptable. There is no reason that author bashing should make it through the editing process.

Betas, take note, if author bashing makes it into a finished mission, you are just as responsible as the person that wrote it. It is the job of a beta to weed that sort of thing out. That said, I don't blame the betas for this example. The bashing was in an author's note, and I know that those usually get added in right before posting.

Confession time: I have looked back at that mission and the thread it was posted in. I am ashamed to say that I didn't say anything at the time. In fact, no one said anything about it. One person said something about the levels of animosity that the agents had, but nothing about the bashing in the note.

So, as much as I would like to be with you guys in saying that we don't do these things; we do. In most cases, we are working to keep it from happening, which is good. In at least one case, it happened without comment, which I think outweighs the good of working on it.

You will notice that I didn't use any names. I would appreciate it if anyone that comments would do the same. I will be talking to the author of that mission to get the bashing removed, as soon as possible.

OK, I'm possibly over-analysing the statement too much, but allow me to play devil's advocate to our anomynous friend here and provide a few counter-points.

To the best of my knowledge, I have seen no PPCer's work here directly flame the author for their work. And has already been pointed out, both within the PPC Constitution and the Wiki, there are deliberate boundaries established. The author is never, NEVER to be "flamed", as you have postulated - the PPC is concerned with the story, not the author.

Have you seen some of the reviews on FF.net for some of the "questionable" works? You're more likely to find "Throw yourself off a cliff" remarks within the reviews section then in a PPC mission.

Yes, some Agents tend to focus primarily on the faults of the work in question, but I have seen assignments where Agents complimented the author IN-TEXT where the author does well in a particular aspect and/or do their best. For example, in the fic I am sporking, the author seems to make a genuine effort of his/her work and it truely shows. OK, so there are some canon deraiment and some questionable actions depicted, but the author is clearly trying to do the best possible.

Third, bear in mind most fanfiction sites' TOS. The Pit of Voles and some of it's more adult cousins clearly dictate that all writers have to be of an appropriate age and, more often then not, have a fair understanding and implementation of the language they write in. I understand if it is someone trying to learn a different language, but when someone who is of an old eough age, writing in their native language and throwing most of what they know out the window, well, wouldn't it be surprising if they are critisised for that blunder? And don't get me started on writing in textspeak when not quoting an SMS.

Finally, as far as I know, we do not discriminate against younger writers. It's an unfortunate fact, however, that they make up part of our sporkable demograph, and even then, we are trying to take their learning experiances in mind when we spork.

Many of the issues the PPC tackle are not new - I direct you to this article - written by Mark Twain, who calls into question some of the writing issues of a professional writer's work:

http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/railton/projects/rissetto/offense.html

So, if it is bad that we are parodying bad writing behind an author's back, how bad do you think these authors might react if confronted directly? Or, worse, if they go into the professional writing scene

In conclusion, are we delibratly trying to be an elitist group of writers who flame bad writers? NO.

Do we believe writers have the capability to improve? YES.

He's an actor on Sesame Street (plays the angry neighbour). He said: "I'm not interested in the fragile child's soul. You can't damage it enough, I think."

On the other hand, I try not to PPC things written by people under the age of 16. At least, most are over 18 by the time I PPC their fic.

I'm fairly certain that the purpose of the PPC is to write amusing stories poking fun at badly written fanfiction while simultaneously giving some pointers here and there to help the authors improve. There's no 'flaming' going on that I can see.

Also keep in mind that the Agents in the missions are fictional characters, and their authors are mature enough to avoid using them as mouthpieces to bash the badfic writers. Many Agents are at least a little insane, several homicidally so, and so if one says the author of a badfic should be *nasty and probably painful thing here*, that does not necessarily mean the person who writes them feels that way.

If you feel a PPCer has personally attacked you or a friend of yours, then I would suggest explaining why you feel offended in as clear and polite a manner as possible. If the conflict is kept to a reasonable level, a satisfactory agreement may be reached. One or both of you may even learn something from it.

If you're a troll, though, you're not doing a very good job of it. Unless you are.

MINDSCREW OH GOD

1)You realize, of course, that because IP addresses are automatically shown here, that we already know who you are, right? Next time, at least use a proxy.

2) Most of your post has already been addressed, but I feel compelled to chime in: I think you meant 'revoke,' not 'evoke,' and seeing as you don't yet actually have permission, it couldn't have been revoked... and even if you did, we do not, and have never, 'revoked' permission/licensing/whatever. Especially not for someone who is trying to, or thinks they are, making a valid point.

3) Read the Constitution, if you please. We welcome discussion, and, as a group, we've had many constructive conversations on what we're doing, if it's okay/right/bullying, and how we could do it better. Posting something anonymously critical, with absolutely no evidence to support your point, and then sockpuppeting a response... that's not the way to go about that.

4) Since you have, of course, read the Constitution, you must know that flaming is actually on our list of things Not To Do. You may also notice that the posts here are, even in response to something as obviously critical as this, civil. The PPC doesn't flame.

5) However, people do occasionally flame and use our name as a reason or cover. If you've seen this happen? Please let us know. Don't blame our site/authors/organization for something some idiot did, using us as a shield.

And-- once again. We don't do the 'revoke' thing. Just put your name down, okay?

--VM

...to believe your story about being an "assassin" for one second.

I smell butthurt. To this, I tell you this: if you think what we do is flaming, then God help you if an ACTUAL flamer were to touch your stuff.

Trust me on that. I've been there, and it was a LOT less pretty than you think.

By the way, we don't call ourselves "assassins".

I am sorry, I know I am either feeding a troll or offending a boarder, but this post made me mad enough that I took a walk, ate dinner, and screamed at a tree before I could muster a coherent reply.

So basically your post is anti-criticism. We shouldn't criticize bad fanfiction because a child could have written it and then we are somehow criticizing a child who so innocent and simply trying to learn.

I am sorry. I have enormous problems with this like you wouldn't believe. And no, I don't care if you use 'you know it to be true.' Because you know what? I think you are very wrong.

"We shouldn't criticize children!"

This is incredibly offensive to children. It's so horribly condescending I have to go stick my head out a window before I can type more. ... OK, I'm done.

So by this logic, we should be less critical of Eragon because Paloni wrote it when he was 15 or so. Should we should put it in the same category as say... The Original Series, which was also written by what we would consider 'young' writers?

No. Just no. You are insulting good, young writers out there by deciding to bring THEM down to the same level as a terrible fanfiction. Yes, young people should be treated equally and with respect, but there's that term: EQUALLY. By placing them in another category that is automatically less capable than some default category you brand ALL OF THEM, not just the bad ones, as inferior.

Don't believe me? What your post says boils down to is "It's OK if they're bad at writing because they're just children."

Just children

Congratulations, you have just condescended to ALL young people. Yes, flaming is sick and bad. But that's not our mission.

And those little children 'just trying to LEARN!'... A lot of them aren't. One of our qualifications for going after bad fanfic in the first place is that the writer simply doesn't try, or has utter disregard for aspects of the canon they're trying to write. It is not in the spirit of the PPC to go after stories that care about trying to be good stories. It is in the spirit of the PPC to go after stories that clearly disregard effort for cheap self-satisfaction: written by a young OR and older author. Older authors can be horrible, too! A friend of mine was horrified to discover the longtime badfic she's been following was in fact written by somebody who has graduated college... yet the fic displays a total lack of comprehension about going to school at all, public OR private OR homeschool!

Disclaimer after disclaimer proclaims 'this was written on sugar high its not supposed to be good SO DONT FLAME ME I AM NOT EVEN TRYING' Does THAT sound like people trying to learn how to write to you? The ones that ARE trying to learn do things like take constructive criticism (which we give freely if asked!), truly TRY to make interesting characters, and put real EFFORT into their work... or at least put the effort to use spellcheck into it!

Being uncritical of things is never the answer. The PPC is basically literary criticism of fanfiction. Raising no-effort products brings those who really do try down to their level, and it is just downright INSULTING... not just to really good young writers, but to my past self, who was not so good.

Because I wouldn't have gotten here if somebody didn't call my work bad or stupid once or twice. I wouldn't be in college learning to be a journalist, and I wouldn't have tried so hard to improve myself.

Flames are bad, yes. But nothing will stop me from comparing the bad to the good, figuring out why, and then doing something about it.

Critics do good.

Peace, Aster out.

(PS:
If we shadows have offended,
Think but this, and all is mended,
That you have but slumber'd here
While these visions did appear.
And this weak and idle theme,
No more yielding but a dream,
Gentles, do not reprehend:
if you pardon, we will mend:
And, as I am an honest Puck,
If we have unearned luck
Now to 'scape the serpent's tongue,
We will make amends ere long;
Else the Puck a liar call;
So, good night unto you all.
Give me your hands, if we be friends,
And Robin shall restore amends)

We do what we do, we do it for a reason, and we keep a thick brick wall between author and fic. That's far more than flamers do.

Just personally, I'm guessing you're someone whose fic got PPCed and found out and came to vent, due to your constant reference to "children" and "flames." I could be wrong, of course.

"even though some of them themselves were not at all learned and merely readers."

We have a response to this sort of thing in the FAQ. It's along the lines of "I'm a reader, and I know what works for readers. I DON'T have to be a writer to say these things."

"They. FLamed. A. CHild. That's sick."

It's nice to be nicer to younger people, but if the younger person's fic sucks they're still going to get criticism. Not everything done to children is "sick."

"Thinking that it was 'cool', they thought up a name for the rather dumb characters they made fun of- Mary-Sues."

I suggest you redo your research on where the name came from.

"These 'flamers' could get ARRESTED if someone tried."

Really? I suppose fourth-grade bullies get arrested too? Or highschool cliques? I doubt it.

"criticizing little kids"

Sheesh. You really aren't a PPCer, are you.

"It's a bit pathetic, don't you think? Flame me, delete this post, but you know its true. Some of us don't like ourselves enough, so they make fun of a child's attempt at getting better at something."

No. We don't.

"Oh, and if you DO flame this, you're probably just as bad as the rest of them."

Translated, means "If you disagree with or criticize me, that proves I'm right."

Have you even read the FAQ? Somehow I doubt it.

"my Assassin license evoked"

Pardon my typo-induced laughter.

I have read many PPC missions and most comments are towards the fic itself, not the writer. Although I will admit that some comments, said by agents during a particularly stressful mission, can be rather harsh.

You are perhaps the single most reasonable sounding troll I've ever had the pleasure of coming across.

Any person who wrote a mission that literally told the author to 'go f*ck/kill yourself' would be kicked out of the door so fast that causality would be violated.

Any of them? We don't bash authors. We don't HATE authors. We ARE authors.

While you do make some good points about flaming and cyberbullying (Albeit ones that have been made beforehand) you seem to not grasp what WE are about.

Do a little more research before you post, 'k?

As far as I can tell...

The PPC doesn't flame people. If a story itself is bad, yes, we may rag on the story, but we help the person who wrote it, if they decide they would like our help in writing and betaing and brainstorming. We don't attack the people writing.

I've always been under the impression that if the authors really were showing some effort and trying to improve themselves, we left them alone. I wonder how I got that idea. How silly of me. I must not have been paying attention at all these past eight years or so.

I agree that flaming is bad, though. We absolutely discourage that sort of thing around here. Glad to see we have something in common.

~Neshomeh

P.S. I'm guessing you meant "revoked." To evoke something is to call upon it or bring it to mind.

The PPC takes a very strong stance against bullying. We make a very clear definition between the authors and the fics, and flaming is severely frowned upon here. We mock fics. We don't mock authors, and we definitely don't bully them. We encourage good writing, and if we can create more of it by poking a little fun at bad writing, that's fine.

Seriously, hon, it's clear as crystal you're not a member of the PPC. We don't hide our names for fear of getting our "Assassin licences evoked" (I think you meant "revoked", by the way) because we don't have Assassin licences.

You're here to stir up trouble, and you're not doing a very good job. Have a rotten tomato.*

*sniffs* A scent of old socks and public toilets... Very recognisable smell.

TROOOOOOOOOOOOOOLL IN THE DUNGEON!




*Oh, and if any of the Boarders think this was a flame, they're welcome to tell me where I need to ease off.

... wouldn't be afraid to use his or her name to voice their opinion, and especially not create a sockpuppet just to support this kind of rant.

I haven't seen any kind of mission in which an author was attacked directly. We just poke fun at the silly stuff appearing in some fanfiction.

If you're an author or a friend of an author one of us has targeted, I can understand that you might feel angry - but is it really worth it to try and sow discord among us instead of trying to talk with us on a calm and friendly basis?

Because we DO offer advice to people who are willing to listen and improve themselves, but not if they don't voluntarily approach us. Just take the missions with a grain of salt, we're doing this all in good jolly fun and aren't out to hurt anyone :3

But, your responder is from the same IP as you.

Your IP hasn't shown up on the board recently.

We don't flame people- and we tell people off who do such. We do not allow bashing of others here. We take it seriously. Anyone who does do so is not following in the PPC spirit and do get chastised.

Your entire post is very cute, though, and if you had actual evidence, it would be taken more seriously.

Try harder next time, yeah?

I agree with anonymous- some of us can be rather harsh...