Subject: Mixed feelings.
Author:
Posted on: 2011-09-19 17:19:00 UTC
I typed out a whole long, knee-jerk reply (mostly agreement, actually) to this post, but then I stepped back, thought a little, and condensed it into this one statement.
I don't want to breed an environment where 'sorry' becomes the new 'please stop.'
That is all. I have said everything I have to say. No further comments. Take it away, boys.
*Jazz music plays Aster out of the thread*
All right, everyone. We have a problem.
There have been a whole bunch of issues of late in the IRC. I don't go there, for a great many reasons, but I have several reliable sources on this one. I'm not going to name any names, but I am going to list what's been happening. So to the PPC IRC in general: here's your charge list.
-Ignoring the rules of the PPC Constitution. Rule 1, people, it's the first one on there
-Bullying
-Making fun of people for things they have said or done
-Ignoring repeated requests to stop doing things which offend
-Ignoring clear statements and indications that people's feelings are being hurt
-Lying. Lying about what's happened on the chat, lying about why things have happened
Any one of these points is an utter disgrace. I don't care who you are - I don't know most of you - but stop. Now. The PPC community was set up by Jay and Acacia to entertain and to unite fans of their work, not to belittle and divide. And you know what? If insults are your thing - if you have to make fun of people to feel good about yourself* - if your normal mode of conversation involves putting other people down to raise yourself up - if, in short, you think that any division into Us and Them belongs in the PPC community - then this is not your playground. There's an entire internet out there for you to insult and attack each other on - keep it out of the PPC.
And if you're going "But he doesn't mean me!" right now - how sure are you? Because if you are on the chat, you need to take a good, long, hard look at yourself. If you're not sure about something you're going to say, don't say it. I hate to break the immersion, people, but this is not real talking. You can and should edit yourself. There are no excuses.
In fact, you know what? This is the PPC Constitution. Every single one of you, go and read it - right now. Done that? Now be honest with yourself - do your actions in the PPC conform to both the letter and the spirit of the Constitution?
If you want to know what hat I'm wearing right now, it's the one with a giant sign that says "I've been here longer than virtually anyone else who isn't my wife and I will not see the PPC go down now". I don't wear it very often.
But now, taking that hat off for a moment, I have a question for the PPC: What are you going to do about this? The IRC isn't working. People are using it to hurt each other, and that is not right. So I'm asking you - all of you - everyone - to come up with a plan. I don't use the IRC, I don't really know how it works, but those of you who do, please, for the sake of the PPC, for the sake of everything we've created here - find a solution. Make it work. Please.
hS
*And no, that is not what the PPC is about. We make fun of fictional characters, not their authors. If you can't see the difference, look again. Look long and hard. ~hS
I brought this up last time this wonderfully horrible topic came up, and think I'll do so again, but louder: I think we could use some rules and responsibilities on the IRC.
Here's what I'd suggest.
Please discuss, and think long and hard about if it's true to the spirit of the PPC. I'll also be bringing this up in the IRC.
From what I've seen, the IRC is usually a nice place, but it does descend into drama and dickery on occasion. We need some simple, clear rules to combat the occasional issues, and these seem like they would do that well.
Simple and clear. I'll all for it
Although I don't use the IRC like at all, I support these as fair and balanced rules. A couple of points:
-I assume flaming is classed under Rule 1?
-I also assume that using responses inappropriately (ie, not needed at all, or too severe) are violations of Rules 1 & 2, and should be responded to immediately.
hS
Flaming is also covered under rule 0 - it's explicitly mentioned in the Constitution, and hasn't been that big of a problem compared to other things, so I didn't think to include it again.
And yes - I'm not entirely sure how best to deal with situations like that, but overreacting and bringing power to bear without cause is definitely against the spirit of the rules.
I quite agree with these rules. I am most definitely going to follow them, and I hope everyone else does the same.
Especially Rule #1.
Neshomeh is actually working on a signable web page for supporters of this movement.
~Phobos & Neshomeh
I'll follow it, it's the least I can do. Some rules will probably help avoid anymore horriblenesss, hopefully.
By which I mean I'd like to see it put in action for a month or two to see how it works out, and then we see where we go from there.
On all counts. (DML's Manner Card rule is also a good one, if it gets added.)
As far as non-invasive self-mod-friendly rules go, it's just about perfect.
Looks good to me. I'll follow them, sure!
Short answer, no. Now obviously, on to the very long answer.
From July's post. Miah, for whatever reason, actively lied about what happened. This wasn't colored or biased perspective. This was an outright lie. She wasn't even saying anything when it actually happened. She wasn't involved. VM was. Artell was asleep. Maslab was going at it just as much as I was.
Miah was also involved with the second chatroom incident- she's the one who, along with Data, created it. To me, this brings up the question of, if she lied here, where else has she lied? This is the sort of person who was just nominated to become a Permission Giver, and I have a huge problem with it.
As anyone who has chatted with me for very long knows, I am very scatterbrained. I have three kids. At the point of this chat, I had an additional five to six neighbor kids that were in my house all the time. I know I was talking to Maslab in another window, attempting to work out with him if there was a way he'd apologize. I don't remember specifically, but I was probably in the main room, secondary room, and other private chats at the same time.
When I was talking about the not leaving off, this is what I was talking about. Short version and if you want more info, Long version . This happened two days prior to the quitting.
As soon as I saw the log that Joe presented here (after it had been posted on the Board), I knew I had been talking about two separate incidents. I also saw (after calming down enough to read the log sensibly) that I was exactly as clear as mud as to that point in that chat. For the not being clear, you have my excuses, and I am sorry that I made that mistake.
However, this part of my involvement could have been resolved long before this was posted on the Board, by showing me this log and asking me about it.
I find that incredibly disappointing.
I thought this community was better than that.
"I thought this community was better than that."
Yes, I have been thinking this a lot over the past weeks.
Anyway, the issue was that in a chat with Joe you claimed that I'd tried to keep going a discussion regarding a story about Maslab's grandparents. I have never taken part in such a discussion or any afterdiscussion. You linked a log about a conversation over Hot Topic, which I felt went pretty civilly all things considered. Heck:
[2011-07-27 12:39:13] * Aster looks at July very hard. "Artell was the good part."
My part in the convo took a whopping 30 minutes, and it kept dancing from subject to subject. This is what an organic discussion usually looks like. After people started complaining about the subject, I dropped it. Of course, your log ends there, so the log doesn't include whatever chat happened afterwards that didn't have anything to do with the topic.
Bottom line, this statement to Joe:
[18:26] Everyone else in the room, including Maslab, immediately dropped it. July and Artell tried five or six times to continue it, but everyone ignored them. I thought it was a pretty good use of the let's drop the subject thing.
Just doesn't hold water when it comes to my involvement.
If I must apologize for talking about politics, then I can, but like July pointed out, I am a political scientist, and I could prepare a long essay on why I think it's essential to talk about politics. And like in what you posted, I will drop the matter if no one cares.
I understand that Miah's defence is that she conflated the two incidents with each other, but I do not feel like I exhibited the behaviour she assigned to me in the one incident where I was actually awake at the time.
I don't think this justifies the sort of character assassination I feel like I've been put through, on #PPC2 or otherwise.
You're right. I re-read the whole thing when I looked up the logs, and you were having a conversation. I'm sorry that in this, I have overlooked how you were probably feeling about it. I've always thought of you as a pretty cool, though sometimes very academic guy. I've often thought that you have a better grasp of American politics than the vast majority of Americans do, and are able to discuss the subject in a much calmer manner. I am sorry for the disrespect in that chat.
I accept your apology for the mistake regarding the convo I had with Aster.
I'd like to take your words graciously because they were likely meant that way, but:
"I've always thought of you as a pretty cool, though sometimes very academic guy"
I don't understand, is 'academic' the opposite of 'cool'?
In any case, my part in this whole incident is really just a sideshow to the disgraceful treatment my girlfriend has been the target of, and I don't want to involve myself more than is necessary.
Firstly, I'd like to say why I love the IRC.
To explain this, I have to share one of my most painful formative experiences. When I was about fifteen, I read somewhere that if you were in a group of people, and you started a story, then the natural flow of conversation went away from your story and no one asked you to continue then you were talking too much--butting in on group dynamics. Basically that your contribution at the time was not a valued and wanted thing. You should stop right there and try again later.
I started paying attention. I stopped going on when no one asked me to continue. No one asked me to continue. For the rest of high school, not even my parents, sister, and other family members. I went to college and got the same thing. On into work life. More of the same. Nothing I have to say has ever been important enough to matter enough to anyone for them to make a point of going back in the conversation and ask me to continue.
I love the IRC, because people actually ask me to go on. They say they like my stories. People like the PPC stories I write. Before this debacle, there were more than a dozen people that thought highly enough of me to nominate me as being in what passes as authority in the PPC. When I said I was surprised and flattered, that was absolutely genuine. I am not used to being anything other than a barely tolerated hanger-on.
From July's post: This clique includes- but is not limited to- Maslab, Miah, HerrWozzeck, Aster, and Data.
Miah and Data set up the private secondary chatroom. Maslab regularly flouts the spirit of the PPC’s rules and will, when it’s brought up, ask what rules he has broken and continue being a berk with the insistence that he has done nothing wrong.
Miah set up the chatroom, and did that lying thing. She isn’t actively engaged in starting drama, but she has helped it by encouraging the cliquish behavior that’s made it turn into a ‘Boo July’ fest with a lot of people.
Read this. Really read it. Read the logs from #PPC2. Not just the relevant bits. All of them. Make your own decision about my having turned anything into a 'Boo July' fest.
I have people within the PPC that I am more friendly with than others. My best friend in the PPC is Caddy-shack (who isn't even on the clique list). EllipsisFlood, Flareshard, Data, Maslab, Tray-Gnome, Doctorlit, Pretzel, DML, VM, Dann, and HerrWozzeck are all pretty high on the list. Aster, PoorCynic, DigitalSocrates, Pieguy, Gaijinguy, Hawkelf, Blayze, RosieAzRael, MaxInsanity, WikiMaster, NordRonnoc, Phobos, Neshomeh, Makari, and anyone else who comes to chat, but I haven't had quite as much interaction with are a bit lower on the list, but still higher than people I've never directly talked to.
This place means a lot to me. Probably a lot more than an Internet group should mean. Yes, I am friends with some people to the point that I consider them more than just a fellow sporker. I think it is great when people make connections with others.
Do we really want to start calling anyone who is friendly within the PPC a clique?
To my knowledge, I never said in #PPC2 that the purpose was to exclude July, because I didn't like her. I have read through all of the logs presented here nothing I said in these contradicts my reasons for starting #PPC2. I repeatedly stated that it was to escape drama. The worst day, as far as my comments go, was during the cursing conversation, and it is noted in the log that I did eventually speak up over the things being said in #PPC2 in the main room.
Here are the relevant bits from the presented logs of #PPC2. Things I said in #PPC2 If you think I am leaving things out of this post, please read the entirety of the logs that were presented. I am not trying to hide anything by pulling these relevant bits out.
Here is a record of what I had to say about the creation of #PPC2, back when it was first brought up. original apology
If anyone does find anything offensive in other logs that surface that I said in snide comment mode, then I am sorry.
There is an apology that I need to make. But first, a confession. I have a side of me that I normally keep under strict wraps. Lately, I haven't been doing that. I got too comfortable and forgot that not everyone (or anyone, really) likes to hear these things.
I am a snide comment-maker. It's not something I am particularly proud of. I do it in RL, too. For instance, if I saw this, then I'd definitely be thinking something rude (did style go right over his head?). If someone was with me, then as soon as I was out of earshot, I'd be saying it. In certain settings, this kind of behavior is acceptable. For instance, in mocking badfic.
What is not acceptable is that I have been taking my bad days and thinking (and sometimes saying) snide things about people that I think of as friends. I will be doing my best to not give voice to these things again, but if anyone does see me doing it anywhere--main room, second room, private chat--give me a smack and remind me that that is not okay.
So to anyone that I have made listen to me make snide comments, and to anyone that I have said anything about, I am sorry. At this point all I can do is humbly beg your forgiveness and make every effort to not let it happen again.
We feel like a couple of points haven't been addressed. A lot of us are guilty of not stepping up and asking people to stop making snarky or otherwise impolite remarks, both of us included. We've read the logs, specifically this one, and while we certainly don't see you making any, we also don't see you stopping them, despite all the assertions that #PPC2 wasn't for bashing or excluding people. For example, in response to some negative remarks about VM's and Artell's use of vocabulary:
(9:01:56 PM) Caddy-shack: Eh, it makes me wants to drop them in a blender.
(9:02:28 PM) Tray-Gnome: ...
(9:02:38 PM) Tray-Gnome: Caddy.
(9:02:39 PM) Miah: Caddy, I'd laugh, but I know you're serious.
And the conversation moves on. It's not much of a censure for a pretty violent remark, and one acknowledged to be serious. Also, where was the censure for the conversation about how "using those high end words" is "snobbish"? Those remarks were bashing other PPCers for their vocabulary, of all things. We are very confused about why that was okay in #PPC2.
Also, one of the most serious principles we have here is that we Do Not Bash Authors. And yet, in this log, we have this:
(8:35:20 PM) ***HerrWozzeck rages about someone using the term "retarded" in a story to describe a mentally disabled person.
(8:35:40 PM) HerrWozzeck: Seriously, what the ..., badfic author?
(8:36:03 PM) HerrWozzeck: Why?
(8:36:10 PM) HerrWozzeck: I just... Graaaah!
(8:36:14 PM) HerrWozzeck: That bitch is going down.
(8:36:18 PM) ***Caddy-shack checks room, notes everyone is of sufficient age, allows Herr to rage as Herr wants to.
[cut for space]
(8:37:16 PM) HerrWozzeck: I just...
(8:37:20 PM) HerrWozzeck: I wanna punch that bitch.
(8:37:22 PM) HerrWozzeck: And then I wanna kick her.
(8:37:32 PM) HerrWozzeck: And then I want to strangle her with some god-damn wire hangers.
Nobody told him that he was over the line. We did see the part where Herr has a disabled sibling, but we don't think that excuses this level of hostility toward another human being. It was an issue of outright violating the constitution.
We are concerned more over the things you did not say than the things you said, and we would dearly love to hear some reassurance that you realize this, since you created the room that allowed it to happen. Not speaking out against bashing is equal to condoning it. We would like to hear that you're now going to commit with the rest of us to preventing the bashing of other people, and to correcting others if they do engage in it.
Another issue we'd like to discuss further is that of cliques. We think that a clique is an insular group, meaning it doesn't easily include new members and may outright reject certain people. In the first chat log linked above, we find this:
(9:34:40 PM) Caddy-shack: Well, I was going to say that I am curious about VM, July, , and Artell doing this. It started off way to quickly with fancy words to not be semi-planned. But also, the reason some of us are here is July and VM doing stuf.
Emphasis ours. We believe this is in reference to the discussion in the main chat about swearing rules, and we want to emphasize that no one corrected him. "No, Caddy, we're not here to avoid specific people, just the drama," does not appear in the chat log. Since the whole of the PPC was not invited and some members were, in fact, deliberately avoided in #PPC2, we think that does make it a clique, and we do have a problem with that. We would like you to acknowledge that cliques as defined above are not nice, and that they do make people feel excluded, and that an attitude of exclusion isn't one we will foster in the PPC.
~Phobos and Neshomeh
I changed the founder status of #PPC2 to Neshomeh. You were the first person whose registered Nick that I thought of. It is your channel now, you can do with it as you please.
I am sorry that my apology wasn't done well enough. I am sorry about this to the point of making myself physically ill over it. I feel at a level somewhere between pond scum and dog sh*t. I tried to express myself thoroughly, and yet again failed.
I'm sorry that you don't have the log where we later decided on rules for PPC2 and said that the thing with Herr was too much. I'm sorry that I take things to PM instead of berating people publicly. I'm sorry that I use drily sarcastic humor to defuse tensions. I'm sorry that I am non-confrontational to the point of only having yelled at someone in anger once and still regret that. I'm sorry for missing the point. I'm sorry that I deluded myself into believing that I was anything other than a hanger-on to this group. I'm sorry that I couldn't even apologize to Artell without further insulting him. I'm sorry that I let this place mean so much to me. I'm sorry that I am afraid to even be present in the IRC anymore. I'm sorry that no matter what I do in life that I will always be the one that is wrong. I'm sorry that I am afraid to talk to the people who aren't basing their entire judgment of my character on this incident for fear of that being seen as a clique. I'm sorry for saying anything at all. I'm sorry that I can't be absolutely certain at all times that anything that I do or say or don't do or say won't be looked at months later and taken the wrong way. I'm sorry that I've probably said something in this post that offends someone. I'm sorry that I try to be a nice person, and still say and do stupid things. I'm sorry that I am socially awkward and have great difficulty reading subtleties in situations. I'm sorry that emotions grab me with great intensity and then leave me just as quickly. I'm sorry that until someone explains to me how something makes them feel, that I am not able to figure it out on my own. I'm sorry I was afraid of some people's power several months ago, and I'm sorry that I am even more afraid of it now. I'm sorry that I'm feeling this way. I'm sorry for making a public scene with this. I'm at shutdown. There is too much conflict that I am apparently the root cause of, and I can't see the end of it. This will be brought up again and again. No matter how often I apoplogize, how sincerely, I just can't see it ever ending. I'm sorry that I am a coward, and I'm sorry that I just can't do this anymore. I can't. I'm sorry.
Our intent was not to attack you, Miah, and we are sorry if we came off that way.
What we wanted was to get all of the problems from before out into the open so we could resolve them. It was directed to you because the concerns were brought up in your posts; it was not personal. If that did not come across, we apologize and ask your forgiveness.
We don't want you to leave. We want you to stay and be a part of making this a group that we can all love again.
-Neshomeh and Phobos
Nobody here wants you to leave, Miah. I told you - nobody wants a scapegoat. And even if that were the case (which would also make us a pathetic excuse for a community), you were not the center of this. It's not All Your Fault, and no one wants to see you leave the PPC over this. A lot of us, though, will really miss you if you do, myself included.
Please, please don't leave over this.
Don't be nice to me. You'll interrupt my downward spiral of guilt and self-pity.
I shouldn't have freaked out. I think I need a break to get my head on straight.
So, two things. Part the Beginning, as long as we're all coming clean here, I've apologies to make as well.
To everyone who's ever been in the IRC quietly going "...is she done yet?" while I rant on, and on, and on, about Fair Trade, or sexism, or politics, or international issues, or religious strife, or whatever else I happen to be going on about. I know I come off really strong sometimes, and I know there's little that's more obnoxious than listening to someone soapbox on and on about an issue when you came somewhere to relax. I really will try to work on that; you guys shouldn't have to invent another channel just to get away from Srs Bsns Rants.
Aaaand to everyone who's feelings I hurt, toes I stepped on, explanations I didn't listen to, arguments I shouted down, issues I shrugged off, questions I ignored, and llamas I shaved. The PPC should never be an absolutist place, it should never have a hierarchy, and no one should ever have to keep their mouth shut because they're afraid of getting kicked for voicing an opinion. We're supposed to be a gleeful anarchy, and that only works if we all respect each other's voices. Saying that LotR sucks may get you an argument, but it should never get you a kick - that's in the Constitution too, I believe. Saying that you disagree with the level of swearing permitted in the room should also not be a reason to fear; everyone has a right to voice concerns, as long as they're voiced civilly and respectfully. That's what we're about here, and I do sincerely apologize for the part I played in harming that spirit and environment.
So. I'm very sorry for the issues I've caused and been a part of, and I will try to work on that in the future. That said-- if I slip back into old habits, if I step on your toes or hurt your feelings or shave your llama, please, please tell me. If I'm not listening, kick me or something. Or pm me with a reminder of this post, or anything like that. I'd so much rather know what I'm doing wrong than go on being a jerk, really.
Part the Second!
It seems like everyone here's sort of in agreement that more self-moderation and respect and thoughtfulness and humor is a good thing. So... with that agreed on, with all of us responsible people and friendlyish as well, can we agree to bury the hatchet over this, and go on about our daily business of writing silly things and poking at the stupid in the world, both serious and silly, and leave the drama all behind us?
I'll shake hands if you will.
And by 'Some people' I mean everybody. I've been constantly saying that nothing is wrong, that July was the root of all of our problems in the IRC, etc. because I didn't know any better. Yeah, I'm probably in the IRC more often than anyone else (or was before I got a job), but I'm rarely actually paying attention, and due to my sleep schedule I have periods where I sleep for an entire day. Usually that's when the Bad Things happen, meaning I'm rarely there and only hear about it second or third hand.
What I'm getting at here is that, until July posted her report and the logs, I had no idea just how bad certain things were. So, I would really like to apologize, because I feel terrible about potentially misleading people, or even seeming like I was trying to mislead people, through my own ignorance.
I would also like to apologize to July for all the times I was an ass to her. Especially that time I called her a bitch (even though no one, including her, seemed to disapprove of that, it was out of proportion for what she'd done). I have, for a while, been working under the assumption that she was intentionally starting the arguments I saw, an idea that was only furthered by the fact that the only times I ever saw arguments when she wasn't around, they were about her. Even so, I never meant to offend or exclude anybody with the back-up channel. Though I never said it explicitly until after things had blown up, the reason I hadn't mentioned #PPC2 at the time was that I was waiting until me and Miah had set up some actual rules. I'm not sure if any of the others actually wanted to make the channel public, but I'm going to avoid making any assumptions about the motives of others if I can now.
I'm sure there's more that I need to say, but I figure that can be saved for the IRC. I'm probably not going to show my face around the board for a while until it stops resembling a beet.
I'm not sure what to say, beyond hoping that this ends with minimal drama and the goodwill of board members towards each other intact. I was thinking about coming back, because of my memories of the community, but now I'm not so sure.
I hope this is resolved as quickly and as well as it can.
This post is to explain the context of Huinesoron's post.
I am linking this with the support of most of the current active Permission Givers. This is twelve pages long, six thousand words, and does not include the word count of the various chat logs within.
The second is a zip of logs from the second chatroom.
I'm making a speech, so, uh, yeah. Prepare to be inspired! And stuff! *gets up on soapbox*
I'm glad this got ripped open again.
"But Neshomeh!" I hear some of you thinking; "It's so awful! All the drama! Where's the PPC spirit?"
Well, it's still here. I know it's here, because as much as this sucks right now, I see us starting to pull together to fix it and make sure it never happens again. Now that everything is out in the open, an amazing thing has happened: we're TALKING about it. People are realizing their mistakes and apologizing, and being forgiven, and committing to not making the same mistakes again. This is so important. We must be able to talk about unpleasantries, because otherwise they would be allowed to continue unchecked, and the resentment would grow deeper, and no one could reconcile. That would eventually mean the end of us.
Thank goodness July and hS had the cojones to bust this thing open. There was an infection of disrespect and unhappiness, and it needed to be lanced and drained. It's ugly and it smells bad when it comes out, but it's the only way to heal. It's no good to let things fester. Now we can clean it up, stitch it closed, and get on with things.
That's the PPC spirit showing. I see a lot of people working to keep this community together, and that's encouraging. Are all the problems going to go away overnight? No, of course not. We'll all have to work hard to keep our promises and not slip back into old habits. I think we can do it, though. I think everyone here loves the PPC enough that they don't want to leave, and I think that means we'll do the work, and help each other when we slip, and it will all get better. And, what's more, this will never be allowed to happen again. We know what to watch out for now.
I was thinking last night that maybe this is the backlog of drama that we never had finally catching up with us. Maybe it's impossible to avoid it entirely. If that's true, though, the good news is that we're in for another long spell of good times, and if it does seem we're heading this way again, we'll have the wisdom to nip it in the bud before it gets so huge. That's the PPC spirit: being able to learn from our mistakes and put forth the effort to improve.
So, that's why I'm glad this happened. I admit I was annoyed when I first saw this thread, but then I thought about it. The issues were never really resolved before, and I'm ashamed that I was content to let it all slip under the rug. I'm personally making a commitment not to do that again.
I'm enthusiastically taking up the cause Phobos suggested, what we're calling the "Don't Be a Dick" Campaign, which is inspired by Rule #1 of the PPC Board Constitution. More on this later (there might be t-shirts involved—maybe hats; we like hats around here), but this basically means that I promise to not be a dick myself, and I equally promise to speak up when I see others being dicks, especially if they're my friends. Friends don't let friends be dicks. Everybody's welcome to join us.
*steps off the soapbox*
~Neshomeh
Because fezzes are awesome. And it's scientifically proven* that people with fezzes are less likely to be dicks.
*source: Anytown University of Totallynotbeingmadeupstuff
...
and sorry about my outburst down there.
They're almost as cool, and much more affordable. Just be sure to remove the previous tenant first.
* Source: The Doctor. So it must be true. ^_^
And hey, don't worry about it. I feel like I should apologize for helping put you in an awkward situation with regards to all of this, so I'm sorry. I hope the Board will also be a place you'll feel at home eventually, too. It's pretty cool here most of the time. {= )
♪And it's getting better, it's getting better all the time...♪
~Neshomeh, who doesn't actually know that song. Or if those are, in fact, the right lyrics. >.>
But I don't have a fez!
Will a conical duct tape hat do?
I can provide a picture if necessary...
I have to admit. When this got posted, I had already apologized for (or at least felt like a bag of butts about) most of the stupid things I said when I didn't know the context or impact of my words. And this not only brought it all up again, but exposed Past Me's idiocy to the whole PPC, I seriously considered leaving and not coming back until at least half of the IRC crowd had moved on from the PPC.
My honor will never recover. I do not want to be known as 'that scumbag who told July that her feelings don't matter.'
But what am I going to do? Commit Internet!Seppuku?
Above all, my philosophy involves overcoming problems. Other aspects of it lead (or led) me to clash a lot with July as her own issues were in full, hideous bloom. Most of the time when somebody gets angry, my answer is that it's the internet and people fight viciously to defend trivial things because it's a dominance competition. This gross mis-evaluation does not at all cover July's situation, and I'm paying for it now with the weight on my shoulders of being forever known here as an instigator of trouble.
And for all people who are like 'geez Aster, drama queen much, this will go away eventually, things turn over fast on the net,' I reply that every keystroke here is permanent, archived, and ready to be flung in faces at any moment. Even ones that a stupider, less informed me made months ago.
And as for that overcoming problems thing... I suppose that my blame falls on that. I just remember being angry, frustrated, and scared that no matter what I said, I would get yelled at and then made to apologize when I felt others were in the wrong for flipping out. Suddenly everything turned into being able to defend myself and I got fed up and jaded... and NOTHING I could do seemed to be able to overcome the problem. Not even apologizing, at the urging of others. I soon began to feel that the apology was useless: merely an appeasement tool sort of like giving a dragon a maiden to make it stop burnininating the countryside.
I only escaped into #PPC2 once or twice, and both times were at the height of my frustration. I regret being so angry now...
and then I remember...how can I regret having an emotional reaction of despair and anger? Way to be angry at yourself for not being a robot. It's impossible not to feel bad when things get this way, or feel afraid. And as Yoda said in a terrible movie, "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, and hate leads to suffering"
The fact that The Phantom Menace was awful doesn't stop Yoda from being right. The IRC should not be a place where anybody should be afraid, because I think that fear led people to side against others (I sure did, and I regret it now) and siding against others made them angry, which caused more drama, which caused the afraid people to get more afraid... a serpent eating its tail until nothing's left but jaws.
And to end off... this is why I am now sure proper self moderation is the key. NONE of us should let this be a place to be afraid of or angry at. Time to work past all of this noise and try and MAKE the PPC IRC a better place... and it already is. It really already is. But it's up to us to keep it that way in the future.
*waves her Don't Be A Jerk flags she got/stole from Neshomeh*
Honor is a wonderful thing, you see. It can be lost, true, but it can also be gained. Admitting when you are wrong is a major step down that road.
We have all done things that we regret, at one point or another. The important thing to do in a case like that is to actively work for reconciliation. Let people see that you have changed for the better and your reputation and honor can be rebuilt. It will take time, but it will be worth it. There is nothing quite so fulfilling as turning a tarnished reputation into an example. "I used to be an instigator of trouble, but I realized the error of my ways and now help to resolve conflicts in the community."
Also, you are not alone in this. There are many of us who are now trying to rebuild our honor. Some of us did not even realize we had lost it until very recently. So, by working to make yourself a better person (as I believe every one of us should be doing at all times) you can inspire the rest of us to reclaim our honor, and be inspired by us in return.
-Phobos
I had to wrangle it off a guy.
And by that, I mean Bronwyn. I just nicked it off her when she wasn't paying attention.
I thought I had hammerspaced stuff again. Ah well, mine now*! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
*flees, carrying said stapler*
(*or rather, again.)
When did things get so complicated around here? When did it become a high school? When - and this one's not a rhetorical question - did the PPC community become more about people's grudges against each other and less about the fun of the PPC?
Frankly, I don't care about the details - I just want it to stop. Now. Looking at the main page, there is a disgraceful amount of hurt, angry, frustrated or whiny posts. Where, exactly, is the spirit of the PPC?
This is a mess. There are far too many bits and pieces to mediate and judge and otherwise deal with. Fair or not, I highly doubt that everyone's going to get the apologies, changes, or other results they feel they deserve, and trying to force it will only make things worse. We can't mend a thousand shards of shattered pottery. I say: Don't bother. Give it up, let it go, and start over.
Yes, I know that's hard. No, I'm not saying it's the perfect moral or ethical solution. I just think it's practical. Wipe the slate clean, start some new discussions, make an effort to be friendly, and don't bring up old problems next time there's a fight.
That said, I agree with Calista that July can be very sensitive - July and I have talked about it before (and it was very civil, in case anyone was wondering) - and I've seen that sensitivity escalate scuffles which would otherwise have been forgotten into fights in which feelings on both sides are genuinely hurt. This is not meant to lay all the blame on July - I think I'm blaming everybody here, including her, to various degrees - but rather to say that I think people in general (in the whole world, frankly, not just our microcosm) just need to be more aware that not everyone's emotional sensitivity is the same and more careful overall.
I don't know most of the major players in this drama well enough to judge who was actually being mean and who just came off looking bad, but to the entire former category I say this: Stop it or get gone. I've been in the PPC for years and I've never seen anything like this before. If you're the cause, just go. Or change your ways. I don't really care.
- Sedri
Wondering why she's still bothering to come back
I don't want to be responsible for starting another thread of this ridiculous arguement. Which quite possibly means I shouldn't have posted in the first place. Apologies. Regardless, please don't reply.
(Not directed at you, kgarrett - I decided to post this request before I saw you'd already replied.)
I've been taught my whole life to be polite. Maybe I should know better.
But, July... the people who are saying you're too easily offended are right. You do take offense at the slightest provocation. We have to walk on eggs around you. That's sad, because honestly, we like you, and we like hanging around you; but even despite that, I'm often afraid I'll say the wrong thing and you'll be hurt. When somebody really genuinely gets angry at you, it's even worse, because you seem to interpret it as not a normal spat between friends but some sort of vindictive attempt to destroy you.
That kind of thing can really be the catalyst to some pretty big explosions; and I think maybe you should figure out why you are reading insults into things where they don't exist, because that's what seems to be happening.
There; I've probably offended some people with that. But I figured I had better tell the truth about what I perceive and what I see happening. Once again, like I said, we do like you--it's just this walking-on-eggs thing that needs to change.
1) Yes, you are right, I do get easily offended at times. For that, I owe pretty much everyone an apology and I will be trying to tone and down and catch what I say before it comes out of my mouth in order to be less cantankerous and hot tempered.
2) There are certain items in here I do not agree with how they were put, but we've already discussed it in private mostly and I'm sure others will be able to notice those items and why they don't apply to what occurred to cause this thread.
I'm sorry.
I don't know if I can phrase this so that it comes across the way I want it to, but I'm going to try.
This post really blindsided me. Not just me, a lot of people from the chat. I was afraid to log in and find out what had happened now.
The chat has been peaceful lately. The few times I have heard someone say 'this is offending me' and someone tried to continue it, the group leaned on the person and they quit. To me, this is the consequence system outlined earlier in the year working the way it should work. This is a large group. People naturally get touchy at times over topics that they are particularly sensitive to. The IRC moves very, very fast. This entire conversation wouldn't amount to maybe twenty minutes of IRC posts. When things move that fast it is very easy to get misunderstandings, say things that others take the wrong way, etc. It is easy to be typing up a response, hit enter to send and then realize that seven other posts have been made and now your's is out of context or is late and continuing something. I am not trying to justify meanness, but I really haven't seen any intentional meanness lately. I have seen the leaning system stop things before they blow up.
I haven't been on IRC quite as much the last few weeks since school started, but I did check with the regulars, and they confirmed that nothing major has happened. I'm just not sure what bringing this up so forcefully, if it is indeed based mostly on what was happening a few months ago, really means. I suspect most, if not all, of the people involved in (or present for )making the IRC a drama filled pit of torture feel badly about it. The IRC has only recently begun to have the same kind of feel of comraderie that it had this time last year. Everyone has been tiptoeing around everyone else to the point that people have been afraid to have any discussions that don't somehow involve kittens for a long time.
Somehow, rightly or not, I seem to have become a person that people often ask to help resolve conflicts. I really do love the PPC--the fun, goof-off, impromptu role-play, Arrgggh! this fic annoys me!, lookit at what I wrote!, Please, tell me about your day--I actually want to know, grammar guru, story guiding, accepting or differences, fun (again for emphasis) place that it typically is.
If there is a major problem still brewing under the surface, I'd really like to know. Before I can intelligently address this issue, whether on the Board or in my own mind, then I need more information. Generalizing is good for avoiding naming names, but I am confused on identifying the causes from the symptoms with this list.
Read July's report, linked in her post immediately above this.
Specifically, click the link to Section V, and read the two logs linked there.
Then explain it.
hS
I would really like to discuss this with you privately in the IRC before I address the entire Board. Would you be willing to meet?
Uh... looks like a lot happened while I was gone.
*heads off to read constitution*
Why don't we just axe the IRC entirely? It seems to do us absolutely no good. All we really get out of it is drama like this and people being at each other's throats.
Remember the last survey where half the respondents said that the 'home of the PPC' was the IRC?
To me this suggestion is really, really disrespectful of the half of the group that calls the IRC home. It says to me that this half of the group is of no importance to the PPC at all. Really, I am incredibly offended right now. Like beyond proper expression.
... is observer bias. People like kgarrett and myself don't visit the IRC - I personally have an active dislike of chatrooms, starting with the old Lounge - so what we know about it is what shows up on the Board. And as someone pointed out, that's the drama. It's a bit like if we looked at the fanfic that gets PPCed and said we should ban all fanfiction - after all, it's all rubbish, right?
Well, no. But we don't talk about the good stuff much in our missions. And we don't talk about the good stuff from the IRC on the Board.
I know someone's suggested letting the Board know when something particularly good's going on in the IRC - I happen to approve. The one time I /did/ spend a long time in the Lounge was The LotR Roleplay - which was awesome.
So what's awesome about the IRC nowadays, guys? We Boarders really need to hear it.
hS
(And since I have no way to get in touch with kg right now, I'll just say this - there are no serious proposals to close the IRC, and it isn't a suggestion by the PPC as a whole. I'm sorry you were offended, I really am, but please don't peg the blame on the whole Board. ~hS)
I actually have visited the IRC. Just not often because I feel unwelcome there and stuff like this keeps happening. I'm in there now, but partly to observe what's been going on.
(Re: getting in touch with me, what about gtalk or e-mail? You were on yesterday. Or is something up over there?)
And no, I was just somewhere I couldn't use email when I posted that. It wasn't a more general thing.
hS
And yeah, no disrespect intended, heh. I just sort of went "what's he on about? I talked to him yesterday" and all.
In all honesty, the IRC is my main way of ANY interaction with the PPC. I don't have the huge attachment that a lot of older members do to The Board, nothing against it, but the IRC is where I like to hang out.
If it were to shut down, and no other chatroom was available, I, and most likely others, would probably fade out. Just because there are problems doesn't mean we should scrap it altogether.
If the IRC was gone, people would leave. In protest, or for a lack of a place they felt at home. I don't want to lose them, nor do I want to leave. The alternative would be simply a new IRC popping up with no link from the Board and no control.
If it did we wouldn't be having these kinds of problems.
To all of you who are at home in the chat. Why aren't you working to fix the problem? I am not in there as much as most of you, but every time I pop my head in it explodes into drama. So you can't tell me it isn't happening.
If you like it, and it feels like home, then take some pride in it and make it the kind of place you can enjoy being in all the time.
For the record, I don't think the chat should close, but at some point you run out of options.
Up until pretty recently, I really enjoyed the IRC. It was much like the 'Board, but quicker. Serious Discussions, silliness and zaniness, and badfic jokes. And stuff like this:
Calista: Yeah, random slash (or random het) for no good reason drives me up the wall.
Calista: It's like they think it's not a good fic if they can't squish romance into it somewhere.
Miah: They really don't have to shoehorn that in all the time
doctorlit: Good point, random het is just as bad.
Calista: It's awkward.
Calista: I mean, they're running from zombies. Now is not the time to figure out that they like boys.
I was also going to copy-paste the PPC Camping Trip Discussion, but it's pretty long.
If we honestly cannot find a way to fix this without axing the entire place, what does it say about us as a community?
I don't think the IRC is an integral part of the PPC right now. Right now, I think it's divisive. We've got Boarders and IRCers, and only a few move regularly between both worlds. A lot of people in each group feel left out or just not part of the other, from what I recall of the last couple of conversations we've had about it.
Now, the PPC got on just fine during the times we didn't have an IRC, so I hardly think not having one again would kill the group. The fun stuff that VM mentioned used to happen on the Board. I miss that. I'd love that to come back here.
In the end, getting rid of the chat isn't the result I want, but the way I see it, if we can't lance the infection of disrespect in there, it's got to be cut out.
~Neshomeh, waving a "Don't Be a Dick" campaign banner.
If no other way to resolve these problem can be found, it'd be good to - at the very least - turn the IRC off for, say, a month or so, and get everyone in this community back in one place again. The Board has become quite empty lately and if all the fun has gone to the IRC... well, I'd be missing out even if I wasn't absent half the time, and I imagine I'm not the only one. It wouldn't necessarily have to be permanent, but I think a good few months of No IRC time would be good for us.
That said, I hope these problems can be ironed out without having to do such a thing.
... if this were to happen, I don't think I'd be able to be around here anymore.
I know horrible things have happened in the IRC in the past, but I have seen the IRC as a place that finally made me feel welcome after so many years of being hurt. Without the IRC and any way to just talk to people like that, I would have probably never been able to gather enough courage to even post my Permission request, let alone written /anything/ without being horribly ashamed of myself.
It's because of the witty banter and the happy memories we all had on the IRC that people actually considered me a good enough person to think I could be a PG. If the IRC were gone, I'd probably still be curled up somewhere in my shell and pitying myself.
So it's obvious that I would get offended and very hurt if the IRC was turned off, even for a month. This place means too much to me. And I have never even felt this kind of divide you people are talking about. We are all members of this initiative, for chrissake. I joined here with the feeling that we are more or less a huge family.
I don't want to end up leaving this place because all of this essentially pointless bickering rips open old wounds again. I have seen enough communities crumble. I don't want to see it happen to this place.
But I'm just a newbie. I don't know if my rambling even means anything in this discussion.
As I've said, I've never used the IRC - not my thing - so I can't judge how much it can mean to people.
And VM's right - everyone's thoughts are welcome. There's no such thing as "just a newbie" :)
Without getting into my personal feelings on the "drama," I don't see closing the IRC channel as being a good thing. All it's going to do is make things more divisive as those of us who really do like the IRC just move to another channel on another network and grumble for a bit, then get on with our usual IRC business.
As someone said before, it is a real-time conversation, so arguments and displays of disrespect are going to be more common, intentional or not. That is not making excuses for them; It is simply seeking an explanation.
I refer you to Phobos' post above: http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?disc=199610;article=216183;title=PPC%20Posting%20Board
Let's have some effort in that direction.
~Neshomeh
...to encourage Board participation of people who mostly hang out in the IRC, and bring people from the Board over to the IRC. Mix the groups up a bit, so there's not that sense of division.
I remember when people used to post invitations to the old chatroom on the Board when things were happening, like RPs or whatever. That was cool.
~Neshomeh
The IRC is an integral part of this community, and a main haunt of many PPCers. You may as well axe the Board.
The IRC only seems to get mentioned on the Board when there's friction; but in reality, the vast majority of the discussions there are civil. Removing the IRC would be a pretty bad idea--while people who mostly hang out on the Board mightn't know it, it makes up probably half or more of the activity of the PPC in general.
I completely agree, and I'm sorry you were dragged away from your wife and child to deal with this crap.
That said, I want to address something Aster said down the thread:
I just see this thread happening, people being like 'OK, we're sorry...' and then months later, the exact same thing happens again because really nothing has changed...
You don't even need to speculate to know that the people who are doing this are going to apologize and then go back to doing exactly what they have been doing. Just look at the history. It happened last time. And it happened a whole lot faster than months. Last time it was weeks, if not days.
But a fair portion of the blame for this falls to the community as a whole. We aren't speaking up and telling these people to stop being dicks. On the rare occasion that someone does speak up, they are essentially told that they are making something out of nothing and that they need to stop.
Well, I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm sick and tired of people with legitimate concerns being told to go sit in the corner while people continue to disrespect each other. I am calling for everyone to stand up when people are being disrespectful and not back down when the people responsible for the problem push back.
I'm going to start putting my money where my mouth is. I invite you all to join me.
... but seriously, people, don't be jerks.
You mean 'Be nice! Treat everyone with respect! Respect other people's opinions' is actually meant to be read literally?
Darn. I was really thinking it was sort of, you know, symbolic and metaphorical. I just don't know where to go from here. :(
Seriously, y'all. The PPC community is kind by design, not by weakness. If you want to be petty and mean, and you don't care if you offend other people, feel free to express those urges . . . elsewhere. No-one can stop you from rolling around in the mud, but you aren't welcome to drag the name of the PPC with you.
- Kaitlyn, wearing a turnip in lieu of a hat
Seconding ever word. I'm amazed that things have gotten this bad. Gah.
I sort of came late to the party, it seems. Despite being possibly the only person that spends approximately 99% of his time online in the IRC, since July left I've only noticed maybe two spots of drama about two or three weeks after that, both related to the circumstances of her departure from the PPC, but after that? Nothing. Pretty much everyone gets along, and those that don't are at least civil, as far as I've seen. For me, at least, the IRC has a sense of camaraderie that the Board doesn't.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm not entirely certain where this is coming from, unless it's referring to July leaving, which happened a while back, so if that's it I'm sort of confused as to why it's coming up now.
...was the feeling that my opinions were being dismissed without being given consideration. This is bound to make someone resent someone else, at a personal, non-intellectual level. I was not the only one who felt this way, but I may have been more vocal about it than most. I don't remember exactly what I said in public, and what I said in PM's (a bad thing, I know) so for now, I'll issue a general apology for my past behavior.
If I ever made any comments disparaging any individual in public chat, which I cannot say with honesty I did not, I sincerely apologize for them. They were made in frustration, and were very much not not well thought out opinions. What hS said about thinking before typing is very important.
I want to take this opportunity to apologize. I am very, very, sorry to everyone. I said a lot of horrible things a while ago, specifically in the second chat, and looking at them makes me wonder what I was thinking. I didn't think I was that bad, but I was. I was a massive A@@ Hole.
I no longer hold any resentment towards anyone in the PPC, all of the issues that I had have long since closed and gone. I can understand others, some in specific taking offense to things I said, and I can understand completely.
... I just read the logs from the second chatroom. I honestly did not remember saying anything quite that bad. I am really sorry for that. I don't have any lasting feelings of anger or resentment towards anyone in the PPC- what I said was incredibly stupid, poorly thought out, and downright cruel. It was the result of anger and frustration, not a legitimate grudge against anyone.
To those against whom I made disparaging remarks- I do not believe any of the crap I said back then anymore. Feeling persecuted (no matter how stupid those feelings may be) makes me angry. Really, really, angry. Angry enough to feel justified in whatever insults I level against such "evil" people. Obviously, I was not in the right. I will not try to argue that I was.
Okay, that first part feels too defensive, re-reading it again. (For about the fifth time.) It was not meant to be a justification, just a small insight into why I would do something so stupid...
I have just found out July was finally driven to the point of leaving, and I'm appalled. How is it that all you civil people allowed such a thing to happen? How can you think everything is okay when a member of the community can be singled out and disrespected to the point that she can't stand to be here anymore? If it can happen once, it can happen again, and that is not okay.
I refer you to Kaitlyn's post, which I agree with completely.
~Neshomeh
...since July left I've only noticed... unless it's referring to July leaving...
You are referring, in case you're not clear on this, to someone who has been an active and enthusiastic member of the PPC for upwards of four years, the person who had the foresight to set up both the Wiki and the IRC, and who has not had recurring problems with any member of the PPC community until very recently. Now she is being victimised and bullied, and has threatened to leave the PPC she's worked on these past four years, over this IRC. Do you not think that's a problem?
...if that's it I'm sort of confused as to why it's coming up now.
It's coming up now because I've only just been made aware by various sources of the full extent of the situation, and you know what? It really sucks. I'm not in the mood to just ask in a vague, general sense for everyone to play nice.
hS, who it turns out can still be this stroppy when it's morning
I'm on a weekend vacation and I come back to see report that the IRC is being a hive of scum and villainy just when I thought a huge debacle was just settling as over and done with... what happened?
What has the IRC done now to get aggro from hS, who is a cool and intelligent person (as much as I have met the guy... wish I could see him around more...) and not at all easily made mad? What have I missed?
... this is not a "right now thing". It is an ongoing thing going back at least to June, and if you frequent the chat, you need to read it as well.
hS
It's mostly why I was a bit alarmed. And I do frequent the PPC, and I do think that yeah, a lot of drama there can stand to be cleaned up. But I think it's also a lot more complicated than 'there are people being cruel on the IRC.'
As somebody who was there, I feel that it's sort of a great trainwreck of 'people not leaving certain things at the door of the IRC.' Myself included, before I wised up somewhat. But overall, I think it would be easier to say 'Everybody, please leave stuff at the door' than 'please do not say anything that could ever possibly offend anybody, ever.' Because I feel that's a bit of a step backward and getting LESS tolerant and comfortable rather than more.
That's really what I think what's going on- that some people feel as if they aren't safe to talk about what they want on the IRC, or feel disrespected/otherwise afraid or unappreciated and that kind of environment bleeds through into all sorts of other things. Like hair-trigger argument thresh-holds and general looming clouds of unease...
... those are my two cents, anyway. I know that various dramas have happened, there, but I think that the best way for everybody to approach the problem is with more toleration of each other overall... not less. It doesn't mean laying down and letting someone curse you out... because that's not just what's happening over there. Just a general environment that facilitates a climate of general unease and chaos.
TL;DR-- everybody feels horrible when somebody disagrees with them, but the climate over there may be turning disagreements into arguments, arguments into feuds, and feuds into lingering animosity which comes with lies and nasty stuff like hS pretty much has said already... so simply not getting upset when someone doesn't share opinions I think is the only remedy... nipping it in the bud, as it were.
I feel that it's sort of a great trainwreck of 'people not leaving certain things at the door of the IRC.'
I'd like if you could explain this a bit more. What things do you think people are 'not leaving at the door' that are causing problems?
Like, the IRC is where I come to get AWAY from most of my problems. Most arguments I have found happen (not really just here, but most places on the internet) is because somebody has a bad day and instead of relaxing, is easily aggro'd by the first thing somebody says that they have mixed feelings about and it devolves into a kind of venting of frustrations into the internet. that hurts everybody.
It doesn't really happen so much anymore, but it could easily happen again if we make the IRC a place to be angry in instead of a place to let go of problems in.
The PPC's about having fun and stuff, and nobody I know on the IRC actually takes pleasure in being nasty. So if that's true, if they ARE nasty sometimes, then there's a good chance that it's at least partially outside factors putting them on edge. Otherwise, at least some of the drama could be diffused by 'oh, well I won't take this too seriously. I know the people here aren't actually trying to attack me.'
REBUTTALS TO THIS POST:
1) This completely writes off something offensive somebody says on the chat as meaningless and it's just outside drama coming in which implies people can't handle their problems.
2) Expecting people to leave their emotions at the door is a heartless thing to expect and utterly disrespectful.
Geez. I should just stop posting on any thread more serious than 'Look! Puppies!' My opinions are so loathsome even I want me to shut up and stop saying utterly callous things that prove how unpleasant a person I am.
... your opinions (on any subject) can be boiled down to "Hurting people is good" - which, from what I've seen of you, doesn't seem to be the case - no one here thinks they are 'loathsome'. Part of the thing I've always loved about the PPC is that we /can/ have people with different opinions - even about what we should be saying on the Board/IRC - and still get along well.
On the other hand...
Part of the thing I've always loved about the PPC is that we /can/ have people with different opinions - even about what we should be saying on the Board/IRC - and still get along well. :P And part of that is that when we say something that someone gets upset over, we apologise. What I'm getting from your posts is that you'd rather restrict what people can say than have them apologise when they say it badly. Which is not, in my opinion, the way to do things.
It takes two to tango. Horrible flame wars and dramas require somebody to say something and somebody else to respond... so the best thing to me would just to be promote levity, tolerance, and open-ness on the IRC. You can't stop people from saying something potentially offensive (everything is offensive, to somebody...) but you CAN promote an environment where people get less offended by stuff.
And that first seed of conflict has, in the past, bred situations where people have felt the IRC was against them, bred drama, bred all sorts of bad things. So perhaps the best thing is to not foster that stuff getting so far in the first place.
You can't stop people from saying something potentially offensive (everything is offensive, to somebody...) but you CAN promote an environment where people get less offended by stuff.
Or, of course, if someone makes it clear (in whatever manner) that they've been offended, the generic you can apologise for offending them and drop the subject.
hS
Although it is a good way to stop such things from happening, I just am getting visions of this altercation happening:
"I am saying a thing."
"I AM OFFENDED! APOLOGIZE TO ME NOW!"
"I'm sorry! Please stop freaking out! Ahhhh! D: "
"YOUR SUBMISSION PLEASES ME."
Like, I know it's incredibly unlikely, but it HAS sort of happened in there before, in varying degrees.
I just think that most situations, this one and others, would be less prolific if there was just more lightness of the heart kept. I don't know anybody there who actually goes there to offend others, so I can't help but suspect most offense at least STARTS as accidental...
Science has shown* that they actually don't put you into eternal servitude to the person you apologise to. In fact, it turns out that regardless of whether they're ignored, rejected, accepted or eagerly devoured as a sign of weakness, they're actually still a nice thing to do. Who would have thought, huh?
But seriously. Aster, you're making excuses as to why people shouldn't have to apologise when they upset others. You're not seeing a problem here?
hS
*This isn't true.
I am seeing a problem here. That's why I just feel that it can't be solved by flinging Sorry at it. It's a bigger and deeper problem than can be solved by just apologies, I think.
And I AM sorry if I came across as rude or making excuses for chaos or mean-ness. I just think that this is something that everybody needs to think about as an ongoing climate of hostility rather than a simple case of people being mean that are getting called out.
Because chances are, in the future, something bad will happen again (It's going to happen, this is the internet, I can't kid myself it won't) and do we really want that to be MORE frequent than it has to be? It's an ongoing social problem, but we CAN try and participate in the society to minimize future damage.
I just see this thread happening, people being like 'OK, we're sorry...' and then months later, the exact same thing happens again because really nothing has changed...
That's what this post is about. Fixing the problem. hS did not go "Everyone apologize to everyone, then we'll be fine," that would be stupid. I think the point of his post was "If you look at the Constitution, the rules mostly seem to point to being respectful of each other and everyone's opinions, whether having Serious Discussions, silly banter, or discussing the best way to go after a badfic."
I think the problem - people being bullied and people being disrespectful and one person actually leaving over this - can best be solved by more respect and consideration of each other, as humans and fellow PPCers. And I think that going into this with the overwhelming cloud of "But what if someone says something mean that they didn't intend? Then things start up all over again!" is a bad idea. Because, first off, we're trying to start off on a new foot, and you're assuming that it's going to go wrong.
And second, as hS said above, an apology doesn't actually harm you, so what's the problem? It's not like anyone's asking chatters to go around bowing and begging pardon every time they say something controversial. The way I see it, this might on a bad day look like this:
"I have this controversial opinion, because of reasons X, Y, and Z."
"Really? I disagree, strongly, because of reasons A, B, and C, and furthermore I think that opinion is overall harmful and missing the point."
"That was kind of mean of you. Can you explain reason B more, not put me down for my opinions?"
"Ah, sorry. You're right, I didn't mean to get snappy. Basically, B is..."
Is that so horrible? Because I have seen the conversation go like this, instead:
"I have this controversial opinion, because of reasons X, Y, and Z."
"Really? I disagree, strongly, because of reasons A, B, and C, and furthermore I think that opinion is overall harmful and missing the point."
"That was kind of mean of you. Can you explain reason B more, not put me down for my opinions?"
"What? I wasn't being mean. I was just stating a fact."
"Yes, but what you said offended me."
"But it was just a statement! I wasn't being offensive!"
Things escalate, people get angrier, other chatters take sides, and it eventually either explodes, or continues until someone defuses the situation with kittens. This is problematic. Not everything can be solved with kittens, we need to be more respectful of each other if we are going to make this thing work. Basically? Intent Is Not Magic. It doesn't matter if you didn't think your statement or argument or joke was going to offend someone - if it did, you should apologize to them. Think about it in IRL terms. You're sitting around in an empty classroom after school, or between lunch waves, or whatever, talking about science or politics, and someone says "God, I mean, seriously! Whoever is still opposed to nuclear power is off their rocker." And then someone else speaks up "Actually, I believe nuclear power is unnatural and the risks far outweigh the benefits. Do you think I'm off my rocker?"
The correct answer is no, and you're sorry for putting it like that, followed by a more civil and logical argument for nuclear power. And, in return, the person does not get to go "That idiot actually thinks we need less green power, what has she been smoking?"
Respect is a good thing. When you have stepped on someone's toes, you apologize for it, they accept your apology, and that does not mean the debate or discussion or argument comes to a full stop, it just continues more civilly. I don't see a problem with this.
I typed out a whole long, knee-jerk reply (mostly agreement, actually) to this post, but then I stepped back, thought a little, and condensed it into this one statement.
I don't want to breed an environment where 'sorry' becomes the new 'please stop.'
That is all. I have said everything I have to say. No further comments. Take it away, boys.
*Jazz music plays Aster out of the thread*
I want to know why you think that could happen. Are people in the chat really like the petty little children in the comic, who want to be allowed to beat other children with sticks? Is that the comparison you intended?
~Neshomeh
I'm not saying people are petty. it was just an example of when words kind of lose their meaning. I don't want people to have to sacrifice their voice for the sake of promoting 'harmony' when it's really self-moderation I think we want to see.
Eh. this reply cascade is kind of over. I was talking to VM and we kind of came to an understanding about it. :)
Part of that is realizing when you're wrong and apologizing for it, though. It's kind of the opposite of sacrificing your voice. Sacrificing your voice is what happens when you let the status quo be because it seems too hard to fix it.
I'm glad you and VM came to an individual understanding. I'm sort of looking for an indication that we all want to come to an understanding together, I think. More people's voices would be nice to hear, on this reply tree or another one.
~Neshomeh
I was under the impression DML was going to post the results of that, for discussion. But Aster, if not, would you mind? We really do need more voices.
http://delta-mike-lima.webs.com/info/2011-09-19.115439-0400EDT.html
Distribution Statement A: Approved for Public Release; distribution is unlimited.
And that means we're not perfect. Which means we suck sometimes.
But most of the time, it's the opposite. The PPC is absolutely one of the coolest places on the Internet. And when we look at the sucky parts of it, we forget the parts that are really truly wonderful.
We were just talking about all this on the chat, and the consensus seemed to be that we really like hanging out here, we really like the PPC, we think it's a good thing despite the fact that it's necessarily made up of imperfect people.
If there's a problem, let's get together and figure out a solution. But whatever we do, please let's don't forget why we're here to begin with--the way we love writing and reading and stories in general, and talking to each other about them.
I don't know how many times I've nearly spit coffee onto my keyboard because of something somebody said in a mission or in the IRC. That kind of thing--the fun, the companionship? Yeah, that's a good thing. We wanna keep it.
