From what I've seen, the IRC is usually a nice place, but it does descend into drama and dickery on occasion. We need some simple, clear rules to combat the occasional issues, and these seem like they would do that well.

Simple and clear. I'll all for it

Although I don't use the IRC like at all, I support these as fair and balanced rules. A couple of points:

-I assume flaming is classed under Rule 1?

-I also assume that using responses inappropriately (ie, not needed at all, or too severe) are violations of Rules 1 & 2, and should be responded to immediately.

hS

I quite agree with these rules. I am most definitely going to follow them, and I hope everyone else does the same.

Especially Rule #1.

Neshomeh is actually working on a signable web page for supporters of this movement.

~Phobos & Neshomeh

I'll follow it, it's the least I can do. Some rules will probably help avoid anymore horriblenesss, hopefully.

By which I mean I'd like to see it put in action for a month or two to see how it works out, and then we see where we go from there.

On all counts. (DML's Manner Card rule is also a good one, if it gets added.)

As far as non-invasive self-mod-friendly rules go, it's just about perfect.

Looks good to me. I'll follow them, sure!

"I thought this community was better than that."

Yes, I have been thinking this a lot over the past weeks.

Anyway, the issue was that in a chat with Joe you claimed that I'd tried to keep going a discussion regarding a story about Maslab's grandparents. I have never taken part in such a discussion or any afterdiscussion. You linked a log about a conversation over Hot Topic, which I felt went pretty civilly all things considered. Heck:

[2011-07-27 12:39:13] * Aster looks at July very hard. "Artell was the good part."

My part in the convo took a whopping 30 minutes, and it kept dancing from subject to subject. This is what an organic discussion usually looks like. After people started complaining about the subject, I dropped it. Of course, your log ends there, so the log doesn't include whatever chat happened afterwards that didn't have anything to do with the topic.

Bottom line, this statement to Joe:

[18:26] Everyone else in the room, including Maslab, immediately dropped it. July and Artell tried five or six times to continue it, but everyone ignored them. I thought it was a pretty good use of the let's drop the subject thing.

Just doesn't hold water when it comes to my involvement.

If I must apologize for talking about politics, then I can, but like July pointed out, I am a political scientist, and I could prepare a long essay on why I think it's essential to talk about politics. And like in what you posted, I will drop the matter if no one cares.

We feel like a couple of points haven't been addressed. A lot of us are guilty of not stepping up and asking people to stop making snarky or otherwise impolite remarks, both of us included. We've read the logs, specifically this one, and while we certainly don't see you making any, we also don't see you stopping them, despite all the assertions that #PPC2 wasn't for bashing or excluding people. For example, in response to some negative remarks about VM's and Artell's use of vocabulary:

(9:01:56 PM) Caddy-shack: Eh, it makes me wants to drop them in a blender.
(9:02:28 PM) Tray-Gnome: ...
(9:02:38 PM) Tray-Gnome: Caddy.
(9:02:39 PM) Miah: Caddy, I'd laugh, but I know you're serious.

And the conversation moves on. It's not much of a censure for a pretty violent remark, and one acknowledged to be serious. Also, where was the censure for the conversation about how "using those high end words" is "snobbish"? Those remarks were bashing other PPCers for their vocabulary, of all things. We are very confused about why that was okay in #PPC2.

Also, one of the most serious principles we have here is that we Do Not Bash Authors. And yet, in this log, we have this:

(8:35:20 PM) ***HerrWozzeck rages about someone using the term "retarded" in a story to describe a mentally disabled person.
(8:35:40 PM) HerrWozzeck: Seriously, what the ..., badfic author?
(8:36:03 PM) HerrWozzeck: Why?
(8:36:10 PM) HerrWozzeck: I just... Graaaah!
(8:36:14 PM) HerrWozzeck: That bitch is going down.
(8:36:18 PM) ***Caddy-shack checks room, notes everyone is of sufficient age, allows Herr to rage as Herr wants to.
[cut for space]
(8:37:16 PM) HerrWozzeck: I just...
(8:37:20 PM) HerrWozzeck: I wanna punch that bitch.
(8:37:22 PM) HerrWozzeck: And then I wanna kick her.
(8:37:32 PM) HerrWozzeck: And then I want to strangle her with some god-damn wire hangers.

Nobody told him that he was over the line. We did see the part where Herr has a disabled sibling, but we don't think that excuses this level of hostility toward another human being. It was an issue of outright violating the constitution.

We are concerned more over the things you did not say than the things you said, and we would dearly love to hear some reassurance that you realize this, since you created the room that allowed it to happen. Not speaking out against bashing is equal to condoning it. We would like to hear that you're now going to commit with the rest of us to preventing the bashing of other people, and to correcting others if they do engage in it.

Another issue we'd like to discuss further is that of cliques. We think that a clique is an insular group, meaning it doesn't easily include new members and may outright reject certain people. In the first chat log linked above, we find this:

(9:34:40 PM) Caddy-shack: Well, I was going to say that I am curious about VM, July, , and Artell doing this. It started off way to quickly with fancy words to not be semi-planned. But also, the reason some of us are here is July and VM doing stuf.

Emphasis ours. We believe this is in reference to the discussion in the main chat about swearing rules, and we want to emphasize that no one corrected him. "No, Caddy, we're not here to avoid specific people, just the drama," does not appear in the chat log. Since the whole of the PPC was not invited and some members were, in fact, deliberately avoided in #PPC2, we think that does make it a clique, and we do have a problem with that. We would like you to acknowledge that cliques as defined above are not nice, and that they do make people feel excluded, and that an attitude of exclusion isn't one we will foster in the PPC.

~Phobos and Neshomeh

I'm making a speech, so, uh, yeah. Prepare to be inspired! And stuff! *gets up on soapbox*

I'm glad this got ripped open again.

"But Neshomeh!" I hear some of you thinking; "It's so awful! All the drama! Where's the PPC spirit?"

Well, it's still here. I know it's here, because as much as this sucks right now, I see us starting to pull together to fix it and make sure it never happens again. Now that everything is out in the open, an amazing thing has happened: we're TALKING about it. People are realizing their mistakes and apologizing, and being forgiven, and committing to not making the same mistakes again. This is so important. We must be able to talk about unpleasantries, because otherwise they would be allowed to continue unchecked, and the resentment would grow deeper, and no one could reconcile. That would eventually mean the end of us.

Thank goodness July and hS had the cojones to bust this thing open. There was an infection of disrespect and unhappiness, and it needed to be lanced and drained. It's ugly and it smells bad when it comes out, but it's the only way to heal. It's no good to let things fester. Now we can clean it up, stitch it closed, and get on with things.

That's the PPC spirit showing. I see a lot of people working to keep this community together, and that's encouraging. Are all the problems going to go away overnight? No, of course not. We'll all have to work hard to keep our promises and not slip back into old habits. I think we can do it, though. I think everyone here loves the PPC enough that they don't want to leave, and I think that means we'll do the work, and help each other when we slip, and it will all get better. And, what's more, this will never be allowed to happen again. We know what to watch out for now.

I was thinking last night that maybe this is the backlog of drama that we never had finally catching up with us. Maybe it's impossible to avoid it entirely. If that's true, though, the good news is that we're in for another long spell of good times, and if it does seem we're heading this way again, we'll have the wisdom to nip it in the bud before it gets so huge. That's the PPC spirit: being able to learn from our mistakes and put forth the effort to improve.

So, that's why I'm glad this happened. I admit I was annoyed when I first saw this thread, but then I thought about it. The issues were never really resolved before, and I'm ashamed that I was content to let it all slip under the rug. I'm personally making a commitment not to do that again.

I'm enthusiastically taking up the cause Phobos suggested, what we're calling the "Don't Be a Dick" Campaign, which is inspired by Rule #1 of the PPC Board Constitution. More on this later (there might be t-shirts involved—maybe hats; we like hats around here), but this basically means that I promise to not be a dick myself, and I equally promise to speak up when I see others being dicks, especially if they're my friends. Friends don't let friends be dicks. Everybody's welcome to join us.

*steps off the soapbox*

~Neshomeh

I have to admit. When this got posted, I had already apologized for (or at least felt like a bag of butts about) most of the stupid things I said when I didn't know the context or impact of my words. And this not only brought it all up again, but exposed Past Me's idiocy to the whole PPC, I seriously considered leaving and not coming back until at least half of the IRC crowd had moved on from the PPC.

My honor will never recover. I do not want to be known as 'that scumbag who told July that her feelings don't matter.'

But what am I going to do? Commit Internet!Seppuku?

Above all, my philosophy involves overcoming problems. Other aspects of it lead (or led) me to clash a lot with July as her own issues were in full, hideous bloom. Most of the time when somebody gets angry, my answer is that it's the internet and people fight viciously to defend trivial things because it's a dominance competition. This gross mis-evaluation does not at all cover July's situation, and I'm paying for it now with the weight on my shoulders of being forever known here as an instigator of trouble.

And for all people who are like 'geez Aster, drama queen much, this will go away eventually, things turn over fast on the net,' I reply that every keystroke here is permanent, archived, and ready to be flung in faces at any moment. Even ones that a stupider, less informed me made months ago.

And as for that overcoming problems thing... I suppose that my blame falls on that. I just remember being angry, frustrated, and scared that no matter what I said, I would get yelled at and then made to apologize when I felt others were in the wrong for flipping out. Suddenly everything turned into being able to defend myself and I got fed up and jaded... and NOTHING I could do seemed to be able to overcome the problem. Not even apologizing, at the urging of others. I soon began to feel that the apology was useless: merely an appeasement tool sort of like giving a dragon a maiden to make it stop burnininating the countryside.

I only escaped into #PPC2 once or twice, and both times were at the height of my frustration. I regret being so angry now...

and then I remember...how can I regret having an emotional reaction of despair and anger? Way to be angry at yourself for not being a robot. It's impossible not to feel bad when things get this way, or feel afraid. And as Yoda said in a terrible movie, "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, and hate leads to suffering"

The fact that The Phantom Menace was awful doesn't stop Yoda from being right. The IRC should not be a place where anybody should be afraid, because I think that fear led people to side against others (I sure did, and I regret it now) and siding against others made them angry, which caused more drama, which caused the afraid people to get more afraid... a serpent eating its tail until nothing's left but jaws.

And to end off... this is why I am now sure proper self moderation is the key. NONE of us should let this be a place to be afraid of or angry at. Time to work past all of this noise and try and MAKE the PPC IRC a better place... and it already is. It really already is. But it's up to us to keep it that way in the future.

*waves her Don't Be A Jerk flags she got/stole from Neshomeh*

When did things get so complicated around here? When did it become a high school? When - and this one's not a rhetorical question - did the PPC community become more about people's grudges against each other and less about the fun of the PPC?

Frankly, I don't care about the details - I just want it to stop. Now. Looking at the main page, there is a disgraceful amount of hurt, angry, frustrated or whiny posts. Where, exactly, is the spirit of the PPC?

This is a mess. There are far too many bits and pieces to mediate and judge and otherwise deal with. Fair or not, I highly doubt that everyone's going to get the apologies, changes, or other results they feel they deserve, and trying to force it will only make things worse. We can't mend a thousand shards of shattered pottery. I say: Don't bother. Give it up, let it go, and start over.

Yes, I know that's hard. No, I'm not saying it's the perfect moral or ethical solution. I just think it's practical. Wipe the slate clean, start some new discussions, make an effort to be friendly, and don't bring up old problems next time there's a fight.


That said, I agree with Calista that July can be very sensitive - July and I have talked about it before (and it was very civil, in case anyone was wondering) - and I've seen that sensitivity escalate scuffles which would otherwise have been forgotten into fights in which feelings on both sides are genuinely hurt. This is not meant to lay all the blame on July - I think I'm blaming everybody here, including her, to various degrees - but rather to say that I think people in general (in the whole world, frankly, not just our microcosm) just need to be more aware that not everyone's emotional sensitivity is the same and more careful overall.

I don't know most of the major players in this drama well enough to judge who was actually being mean and who just came off looking bad, but to the entire former category I say this: Stop it or get gone. I've been in the PPC for years and I've never seen anything like this before. If you're the cause, just go. Or change your ways. I don't really care.

- Sedri
Wondering why she's still bothering to come back

I've been taught my whole life to be polite. Maybe I should know better.

But, July... the people who are saying you're too easily offended are right. You do take offense at the slightest provocation. We have to walk on eggs around you. That's sad, because honestly, we like you, and we like hanging around you; but even despite that, I'm often afraid I'll say the wrong thing and you'll be hurt. When somebody really genuinely gets angry at you, it's even worse, because you seem to interpret it as not a normal spat between friends but some sort of vindictive attempt to destroy you.

That kind of thing can really be the catalyst to some pretty big explosions; and I think maybe you should figure out why you are reading insults into things where they don't exist, because that's what seems to be happening.

There; I've probably offended some people with that. But I figured I had better tell the truth about what I perceive and what I see happening. Once again, like I said, we do like you--it's just this walking-on-eggs thing that needs to change.

Read July's report, linked in her post immediately above this.

Specifically, click the link to Section V, and read the two logs linked there.

Then explain it.

hS

Remember the last survey where half the respondents said that the 'home of the PPC' was the IRC?

To me this suggestion is really, really disrespectful of the half of the group that calls the IRC home. It says to me that this half of the group is of no importance to the PPC at all. Really, I am incredibly offended right now. Like beyond proper expression.

Up until pretty recently, I really enjoyed the IRC. It was much like the 'Board, but quicker. Serious Discussions, silliness and zaniness, and badfic jokes. And stuff like this:

Calista: Yeah, random slash (or random het) for no good reason drives me up the wall.
Calista: It's like they think it's not a good fic if they can't squish romance into it somewhere.
Miah: They really don't have to shoehorn that in all the time
doctorlit: Good point, random het is just as bad.
Calista: It's awkward.
Calista: I mean, they're running from zombies. Now is not the time to figure out that they like boys.

I was also going to copy-paste the PPC Camping Trip Discussion, but it's pretty long.

If we honestly cannot find a way to fix this without axing the entire place, what does it say about us as a community?

The IRC is an integral part of this community, and a main haunt of many PPCers. You may as well axe the Board.

Seconding ever word. I'm amazed that things have gotten this bad. Gah.

...was the feeling that my opinions were being dismissed without being given consideration. This is bound to make someone resent someone else, at a personal, non-intellectual level. I was not the only one who felt this way, but I may have been more vocal about it than most. I don't remember exactly what I said in public, and what I said in PM's (a bad thing, I know) so for now, I'll issue a general apology for my past behavior.

If I ever made any comments disparaging any individual in public chat, which I cannot say with honesty I did not, I sincerely apologize for them. They were made in frustration, and were very much not not well thought out opinions. What hS said about thinking before typing is very important.

I have just found out July was finally driven to the point of leaving, and I'm appalled. How is it that all you civil people allowed such a thing to happen? How can you think everything is okay when a member of the community can be singled out and disrespected to the point that she can't stand to be here anymore? If it can happen once, it can happen again, and that is not okay.

I refer you to Kaitlyn's post, which I agree with completely.

~Neshomeh

...since July left I've only noticed... unless it's referring to July leaving...

You are referring, in case you're not clear on this, to someone who has been an active and enthusiastic member of the PPC for upwards of four years, the person who had the foresight to set up both the Wiki and the IRC, and who has not had recurring problems with any member of the PPC community until very recently. Now she is being victimised and bullied, and has threatened to leave the PPC she's worked on these past four years, over this IRC. Do you not think that's a problem?

...if that's it I'm sort of confused as to why it's coming up now.

It's coming up now because I've only just been made aware by various sources of the full extent of the situation, and you know what? It really sucks. I'm not in the mood to just ask in a vague, general sense for everyone to play nice.

hS, who it turns out can still be this stroppy when it's morning

... this is not a "right now thing". It is an ongoing thing going back at least to June, and if you frequent the chat, you need to read it as well.

hS