With all due respect...

Subject: With all due respect...
Author: Vixenmage
Posted on: 2011-08-21 04:38:00 UTC

So are Suethors. Being fond of your characters does not excuse elevating them above canon, making them more Special than canon characters, giving them uncanonical powers. Come on-- what would you say if someone posted a Sonic 'fic in which a random Lady Hedgehog upstaged Sonic several times with powers that don't exist in canon? And then you told her it was a self-insert, and she refused to admit there was anything wrong with it?

We're all fond of our characters-- that doesn't excuse bad writing. Aster's not trying to be cruel~~, or she'd darn well better not be~~, she's trying to help you see; we've all got blind spots where our own writing is concerned.

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So... why no Super Mario Bros.? by Luigifan on 2011-08-20 15:33:00 UTC Reply

Seriously, a series so big has to have a huge fandom - and several really stinky pieces of badfic. Perhaps someone should take a look...

Simply no one's picked out a mission there yet. by Aster Corbett on 2011-08-20 15:46:00 UTC Reply

For one, people doing lots of video games is actually relatively new. A lot of the oldbies worked in fandoms such as Lord of the Rings, Pirates of the Caribbean, Harry Potter, and other fandoms that have had definite badfic explosions. Mario has sort of... always remained a burbling set level of hazy terrible, and the video game division (while not new) didn't actually see so much action until somewhat recently (past 3 years I guess? Though there was some from before that.)

Though as a writer for the DMS: Video Game Division, I actually have been thinking about doing a mario mission for a little bit.

Actually...

this is a weird request, but as you've already admitted it to be badfic on the wiki, I was thinking of picking up your Super Luigi Bros. fic and sporking that. Remember! This isn't an issue of hard feelings or picking on people. Most of us have written bad fic in the past, and it's always good to laugh at ourselves.

(Besides, I promise to make it exciting. I have some funny ideas.)

Would you be OK with that? We usually don't spork fic of people we know, but I figure that if you actually hang around here, I might as well ask you before I go around making fun of it.

Wait... what?!? by Luigifan on 2011-08-20 21:22:00 UTC Reply

O_o; Uh... is it really bad enough to warrant sporking? Sure, it has a few original characters in it (Luigifan's actually a self-insert), but it's really Mario and Luigi who the story revolves around (even if it does take them about 4 chapters to finally get involved.)

As much as I hate to say it, yes. by Aster Corbett on 2011-08-20 21:49:00 UTC Reply

The original character has 4 chapters to himself, borrows a lot from Super Mario RPG when he wasn't a part of it. Not to mention he has a fingergun, which is Geno's and Geno opens up his finger to use it because he is a doll, that seems pretty much impossible.

There is an uncanonical Legend of Sarasaland that I think would be a pretty big deal that we have never heard before.

He does most everything expertly without explanation, even if he gets hurt and falls into holes from time to time. We don't know his background or how he got to be able to use these weapons. He'd have no reason to be known save for an uncanonical event. This has made him uncanonically famous, somewhat. He also has pokemon in the Super Mario universe, a 'dragonlite' (that may be a nickname, I am not sure from the writing, or a mis-spelling of Dragonite), and is I think said somewhere to be the only hope of the Mushroom Kingdom and Sarasaland (before getting Luigi).

There is a Yoshi that seems to know a healing spell, unless that was the use of an item and I can't tell if it is or not because from the description it seems magic to me.

Bowser wants to kill somebody, and although he has it out for Mario killing people is just not usually his style. Nor is talking in weird intermittent formality ("Where Princess Daisy's life shall be lost" ? Seriously Bowser??)
He also seems to shoot a bow at people. I have never seen him do any sort of archery, nor can I think that his rotund claw-fingered form would be any good at it.

Mario is slightly bashed (even if you didn't know you are doing it) in order to enable Luigi to do more heroic things. It's not a matter of you not liking Mario, it's just that you (obviously from your username) like Luigi more.

There is an uncanonical fox lady. This is not a bad thing, as she doesn't do anything to canon-wrecking, but I did find a somewhat disconcerting custom Magic the Gathering card about her that gives her super powers. Not relevant in fic, but something to think about.

Your dialogue is all bunched up into big paragraphs when it belongs one-speaker-to-each-line.

... and on and on.

Yes.

It is able to be sporked.

Sorry.

Hoo boy... what do you have in mind? by Luigifan on 2011-08-21 02:53:00 UTC Reply

Let me just say that the fingergun is completely unrelated to Super Mario RPG. It's really more of a tiny gun mounted on Luigifan's finger. (As for how it's loaded or stores its ammunition... erm... hammerspace.) I guess I should have made clear that Luigifan's being the "only hope" refers mainly to his informing Mario and Luigi as to what's going on, as otherwise they might not have known that Daisy was in danger until it was too late. Luigi's the real Chosen One; Luigifan is simply the messenger. And yes, Dragonlite is a nickname for my Dragonite (I have a bit of a fondness for horribly lame puns.) Furthermore, Luigifan's not an expert in everything; sure, he can be eloquent, but he's just as likely to make a complete and utter fool of himself in a social situation (a reflection of my own poor social skills.) He's also not very athletic (again, the same is true of myself), so he has a hard time dodging attacks, running long distances (or moving quickly), etc. Luigifan's background is my background, so it's self-evident to me, I guess - though, really, explaining everything about it would take a long time. As for why I'm famous... it's for rescuing Jumpy (the Yoshi) from Bowser, who had captured him in an effort to use him for ingredients in a birthday cake. Yes, Bowser wanted to bake a Yoshi into a cake. I'm serious. (Granted, I came up with that plot when I was seven. So I can acknowledge it as ridiculous. But, really, with teeth like that, is it unreasonable to assume that Bowser's a carnivore?!?) And as for why the Mario Bros. didn't do it... hmm... it was 1997 when I was seven, so... *looks up what Mario games were released at the time* ...um, they were horribly injured in a go-karting accident? (I always did suck at Mario Kart 64.)

And the weapons... I got those from the Chaos Emeralds as a result of needing to defend myself from a nationalism-berserk Kanebei (don't ask... Let's just say that Kanebei's not the sort to take people dropping into his country lightly. If Drake hadn't shown up, he probably would have killed me.) Both that incident and Super Mario Sunshine precede the events of Super Luigi Bros., yet Eatery (the aforementioned Bowser-attempting-to-bake-a-Yoshi-into-a-cake incident) took place about 3 years before the incident with Kanebei. Well, three real-world years, at any rate. Yet Bowser says that Eatery was only one year ago, when it really should have been about 4. Maybe time passes a little differently in the Mushroom Kingdom...? Nah, that's not a good justification, I just messed up my timeline.

Jumpy (the Yoshi) does indeed have healing powers (not magic; it's actually more along the lines of divine power), up to and including resurrection, but it's counterbalanced by the standard healer/magician weakness of being horribly fragile. Plus, he has to use up his own energy to heal people, and reviving the dead takes a huge amount of energy, which increases the longer they've been dead; reviving someone who's been dead for two or more weeks is outright impossible. Jumpy also has the power to manipulate plants; his most devastating technique is a punch that makes grass materialize in the target's throat, choking them. (Again, trying to apply logic to this will only result in headaches.)

Cassandra Belnades is actually a recent addition to the story - a retcon to put in more backstory for a character who more prominently features in my later (and currently unpublished) work. Her ability is to copy the abilities of others (think the power that Kirby gets from TAC in Kirby Super Star, and you get the general idea.) She doesn't really become important until my tie-in to Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga, where she informs Prince Peasley of Cackletta's plot so that he can inform Princess Peach (Cassandra's in the Beanbean Kingdom in the first place because her job is basically to serve as an ambassador to the Mushroom Kingdom.) Also, all of Cassandra's siblings are in fact alive, but none of the characters know that at the time of Super Luigi Bros.

As for Bowser killing Daisy... that's only a means to an end, namely, to get the mystical sphere so that he can use it to eliminate the Mario Bros. (Plus, I think it's in character for him to want to make Luigi cry.) I'll give you the whole stupid archery thing, though. Seriously, he could have shredded her with his claws while still in the Koopa Klown Car. There was no need to set her on a pillar and shoot arrows at her; if he was gonna do that, he should have tied her to a pole. He really needs to read the Evil Overlord List. Then again, Bowser is rather stupid, so... yeah. As for the intermittent formality... he's paraphrasing the ancient text, I guess. That, or he was up all night with Kammy Koopa rehearsing menacing speeches.

Finally... if you think the plot of Super Luigi Bros. is stupid, the sequel is basically "Kamek transforms the Mario Bros. into fruit snacks and teleports them into a random kitchen. Hilarity ensues." See why I haven't bothered to publish it? I only figured out the precise details of the plot when I designed it as a level pack for Super Mario 63 (a Newgrounds flash game).

Anyways... just what the heck do you have planned?

That's... a lot of stuff. by Aster Corbett on 2011-08-21 04:40:00 UTC Reply

Fortunately, I can't charge for it. Because it's not in the fic. And we evaluate things based on the text of what we find.

(Though I will say that all of this is... really uncanon. Like, I sort of feel explaining it almost made it MORE sporkable than if you hadn't.)

It's rare that we get a bad fic (and it is bad, though that really only means that you have a chance to write more fics that are better, knowing what you did here) from somebody who is in the PPC itself... usually if that happens it's old shames and other stuff. If anybody was to find my old badfic (and I have no idea how they would!) I would ask somebody to spork it in an instant.

As for what I have planned? You'll just have to wait and see, if you are giving me the go ahead to do it. Just remember... it's against our credo to make fun of the author of the fic. Just the characters that bend canon into odd shapes. The funny thing is, though, because this Stu is a self insert of you (though not REALLY you, I mean, I doubt you REALLY are a pokemon trainer in real life...) and you happen to be involved with PPC materials... interesting things might happen.

And by interesting, I mean meta. And probably exciting.

And hey, if you want to use the sporked!Stu identity as a jump point for being present in the PPC, that's fine. Tons of agents are rehab'd Sues or Stus... on meds and therapy to reduce their glitter and take out silly uncanon backstories.

Why only 6 chapters? by Luigifan on 2011-08-21 06:04:00 UTC Reply

I started Chapter 7 a long time ago, but haven't done much work on it because I can't figure out how the characters are going to get past a massive pillar of magma that Kammy Koopa summons. The only things I can think of are an Ice Flower (which would be introducing it far earlier chronologically than it's supposed to show up in the Mario series, namely Super Mario Galaxy and New Super Mario Bros. Wii) and F.L.U.D.D. (and I cannot justify how it could hold enough water to cool off a column of magma to the point where it solidifies and is bypassable, especially since the characters are in Dry Dry Desert and therefore would have an extreme interest in conserving their water.)

So, yep, big 'ol writer's block. Sigh.

You pack a lot of stuff into 6 chapters. by Aster Corbett on 2011-08-21 13:52:00 UTC Reply

A lot of uncanon stuff. Like, think about everything I wrote about it in an earlier post. That's pretty much a full charge list.

Actually, I find 4-6 chapters the optimal sporking length. Any longer, and it gets too long to cover ALL of the story... I end up skipping over narrative so the context is lost a little, and spending valuable time in a story to explain just why X and Y is bad is a bit taxing on the flow and pacing of it.

I actually might not even wait until chapter 6 to kill it.

... writer's block? Well, I'm not going to say DON'T write this story more, but we both know it's not really doing any special favors for the Mario section on ff.net. Actually, in reading this over to spork, I do see some good potential in your writing, if the un-canon-ness and the multiple-speakers-per-paragraph were squared out. The main character, Gary Stu background aside, is actually not that bad in ATTITUDE and would make a decent humor self-insert character.

(Half of being a Mary Sue/Gary Stu in my opinion is unrealistic treatment of setting and characters, which he's got in spades. The other half is the attitude of entitlement/nullifying all character traits save the ones that get the Sue/Stu what she/he wants. This particular selfinsert Stu doesn't have as much of the second one. Take away all of the Stu's 'stuff' and his glitter level is greatly reduced.)

Most of the time when go around reading marginal stories and looking for sporking material, something I see even more than the 'why this story breaks the canon' is 'how this story and writer can improve,' Sometimes it's very depressing because I'm not going to be able to speak to the writer of the badfic in question, and leaving a review is ignored a lot of the time. Sporking this fic is actually a change of pace for me because while it's bad, it has that one redeeming quality (the lead if reimagined and brought down to normal could be funny!) that indicates that with practice, the writer could write something palatable pretty easily. Usually I try and aim for the worst of the worst for fic that has no redeeming qualities because it's distracting to think about how a fic might be better when I'm supposed to be discussing why a fic is the worst.

Yeah, I'm fine with you sporking the fic... by Luigifan on 2011-08-21 05:24:00 UTC Reply

The Luigifan character is definitely an avatar of myself. He's slightly more physically capable than I am, but still very far from the pinnacle of human capacity. No, I don't own Pokemon in real life (well, okay, I do have several of the games, but not the critters, for obvious reasons), nor do I have a Fingergun or Chaos Sword or yada yada.

Also, about the Chain Link... basically, it works like Link's Hookshot from Ocarina of Time. In other words, it's a grappling hook. It has a very long reach, but it can be broken by a sharp object (like, say, a blade) fairly easily, forcing Luigifan to retrieve a replacement from Hammerspace (which tends to take a while) before using it again.

And I'd really love to use the sporked Luigifan identity to get into the PPC. (Maybe Cassandra could join too...)

And if you didn't guess from the surname, Cassandra Belnades is supposed to be a descendant of Sypha Belnades from the Castlevania series. I haven't really worked out the details of how that's possible, and quite frankly, I don't have much interest in it...

Your attempts to justify all the stupid stuff in your fic... by FlareShard on 2011-08-21 03:37:00 UTC Reply

Honestly. Take a look at what you just wrote, Luigifan. You're embarassing yourself.

...Not cool, dude. (You too, Caddy-Shack.) by Vixenmage on 2011-08-21 04:35:00 UTC Reply

Aster prefaced her post with a careful explanation and detailed reasoning on her position. Jumping into a discussion with sneering and mockery really misses the 'constructive' part of constructive criticism.

Come on, guys. You're both far better than this-- I know you'd never say something like this to anyone in the IRC, there's no reason to do it here.

Huh? Sneering? by Luigifan on 2011-08-21 05:15:00 UTC Reply

I wasn't sneering or anything like that, just trying to explain the issues. And you can clearly see that I struggled a bit to do it - I really don't disagree with the criticisms, I just want to provide more information.

I was addressing them, not you. (nm) by Vixenmage on 2011-08-21 05:46:00 UTC Reply

Yeah, I realized that RIGHT after posting... (nm) by Luigifan on 2011-08-21 05:54:00 UTC Reply

Sorry. by Caddy-Shack on 2011-08-22 02:35:00 UTC Reply

Yeah, I guess outright laughing was rude. Sorry for being an A@@. And, to be fair, the fic and Luigifan (the insert) aren't horrible. I can see the whole family tree thing being a plot from a Mario game.

Look, I'm just really fond of my characters, okay? by Luigifan on 2011-08-21 04:30:00 UTC Reply

And I'm not justifying this stuff so much as explaining it. There's a lot of relevant information not contained within the fic itself.

With all due respect... by Vixenmage on 2011-08-21 04:38:00 UTC Reply

So are Suethors. Being fond of your characters does not excuse elevating them above canon, making them more Special than canon characters, giving them uncanonical powers. Come on-- what would you say if someone posted a Sonic 'fic in which a random Lady Hedgehog upstaged Sonic several times with powers that don't exist in canon? And then you told her it was a self-insert, and she refused to admit there was anything wrong with it?

We're all fond of our characters-- that doesn't excuse bad writing. Aster's not trying to be cruel~~, or she'd darn well better not be~~, she's trying to help you see; we've all got blind spots where our own writing is concerned.

With that said... by Luigifan on 2011-08-21 05:13:00 UTC Reply

It's not like I disagree with what Aster said -- the plot certainly is stupid in several respects. Practically all of my characters were Mary-Sues at first, but I think a lot of them have grown out of it.

Actually, I do know of a fic that I stopped reading in disgust because its central character... well... Amy is not supposed to dump Sonic "because he'd be happier with someone else". She'd never do that if in-character!!! I like two of the bit characters (namely Rikku and Alex), but Marianne... *shudders* And she's also some sort of phoenix god reincarnated? Even though she's a cat? WTF?

Do you have an example of a more current fic? by DigitalSocrates on 2011-08-23 01:04:00 UTC Reply

So we can give you some tips and judge if you really have grown out of it?

My muse rarely visits. by Luigifan on 2011-08-23 03:41:00 UTC Reply

It's rare for me to actually find a time when I WANT to write, and don't get writer's block when I do so.

Just be glad I haven't uploaded my very first fanfic, a Pokemon story titled "Ho-oh's Wrath". I can't find it and don't remember the details - I think I got the characterization pretty good, but the plot was totally bland (Team Rocket wants Ho-Oh, so Ash has to stop them with a generic Pokemon battle!"

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! (nm) by Caddy-Shack on 2011-08-21 03:27:00 UTC Reply