Subject: Reply
Author:
Posted on: 2011-05-10 05:39:00 UTC
I feel like I should mention, I know a Lee, and he's an awesome person. Your point on perspectives is quite valid, and I acknowledge that you probably know more about it than me, seeing as you have children and have gotten to see firsthand how names affect kids growing up.
That being said, I would like to thank you for the input. It always helps, and never hurts.
http://karendulay.livejournal.com/610.html
Introducing: Karen and ???, my agents!
Karen: Full name Karen Elaine DuLay, just transferred to the Department of Mary Sues. Fears needles, cows, and is paranoid that the Flowers are out to get her. This is possibly true. Wears a long, black leather trenchcoat over a sleeveless black turtleneck and black jeans. Has long brown hair held up in a ponytail and brown eyes. Don't ask how she blew up the Response Center: you'll find out eventually. Also don't ask about the bricks. But feel free to help her haul them.
???: Name unknown, origin unknown. Dresses impeccably in a white dress shirt, black slacks, and a red vest. Wears a golden crucifix with rubies on it around his neck. Is not a vampire, and possibly becomes irritated when you think he is, but it's seriously hard to tell since he never seems to show emotion. Has slicked-back blond hair and blue eyes. Former partner recently died due to mysterious causes.
As a PG, I'm not really prepared to say yes or no until this plays out and you've decided what you want to do, but I will say I share some of the issues others have mentioned with the guy I'm now thinking of as Victor Borge for reasons that the linked video ought to make clear. It's gonna be really hard to overcome that sort of first impression, so I'd suggest taking plenty of time before making up your mind.
~Neshomeh
Yeah, I took down the original request so I can radically rewrite it. I'm gonna try portraying ??? differently...but I really do want to have his name be a point of some confusion on his partner's part. He's hopefully going to be portrayed differently. Until then, I thank you all for your opinions.
Bit late to the party, but the idea just popped up; what if she calls him something different each time, since he won't deign to share? Might be interesting to see how far she could go with ridiculous names before it peeves him. If at all. Might also be confusing, but... *shrugs*
Just my two cents' worth of personal opinion. G'luck with your figuring.
Actually, I debated having him change his name with each mission, but that would just get too confusing, in my book. Maybe Karen tries to guess his name and gets the most ridiculous ideas about what it could be, but I don't think he'd change his name constantly.
Disclaimer: I'm not a PG but i'll give you my 2 cents anyway.
I'm seeing enough errors that I'm going to go line by line:
First thing I notice is a weird transition at the end of the first paragraph. It implies that the agent is actively being lectured by the flowers, but that is not the case.
recently assigned to the Department of Mary Sues
Of all the things to say for the very first descriptive text of Karem you use that? This is the introduction! This line should give you the foundation of this character's personality. It shouldn't tell you what department she's in.
I don't have the same problem with parenthesis that DML does: the insert about Triple seems to fit fine, although the exact words are a bit clumsy.
I also disagree with DML about the front-loading descriptions. They have their place, and the first introduction of the main characters can certainly stand to have two sentences each of description. It's to-the-point and not remotely purple.
After a moment’s consideration, Triple walked over to the right side of the room and placed his armchair near the bathroom door.
Did his armchair become pocket-sized since the last time it was mentioned?
Triple called over his shoulder, speaking in a cultured accent.
A what?
Radiating about twenty feet from the door in all directions on the walls, ceiling, and floor were scorch marks that told the explosives expert a very large bomb had recently gone off in the RC.
I would think that his memories would tell him more than his bomb expert skills. The intro implies he was involved in causing it.
~~~
Okay, my first impression of Triple is that he's just unlikeable. My face is literally scrunching up reading him. He's got super strength and could easily do the job that multiple people are having trouble with, but he won't because he's a prick.
Triple’s lower left eyelid began to twitch sporadically.
At this point I'm surprised he has a human face. I was expecting some kind of ceramic mask instead. In fact, it makes it easier for me to swallow that he's an inhuman statue. I can't imagine an actual person like this.
“Cease at once, or I will not allow you any of the Bleeptea on the upcoming mission.”
Awesome. He's her boss too.
“Celebrian.” Triple spoke without inflection. His partner immediately collapsed on the floor and began to twitch in a way that was altogether disturbing.
And he's abusive and manipulative. Seriously, this is just horrible. He's sociopathically torturing his partner.
There is literally no flaw you can give to this guy that will justify how much of a prick he is. Why do you hate Karen so much that you give her this as a partner?
Sorry, but Triple is unsalvageable as a character. I strongly suggest starting over with him.
AFAIK it's discouraged to make your writing sample for a Permission request actually about the agents you write for.
1) Am I just misunderstanding, and it's actually perfectly fine, as long as it's not an actual mission?
2) Just about everyone writes their agents in the permission request anyway. Does the Permission Request page need to be fixed to make it more clear this is frowned upon?
3) Should that policy be changed? An intermission with the agents actually sounds like a good way to get familiar with the characters and see how they might write a mission.
In a question what a writing sample could be about, Neshomeh stated here that it could be about anything that wasn't an actual mission. She added that an introductory piece about one's agents was both common and useful.
So:
1) yes, you seem to be misunderstanding.
2) Writing agent introductions is not frowned upon; the wiki-page should reflect this.
3) The policy is already different so it doesn't need to be changed.
Howdy there.
I'm not a permission giver, but I can give you a bit of honest feedback. The beginning of the episode rubbed me the wrong way; it felt like an infodump. This tends to be something I seem to see quite a bit in badfics and as a result, describing all your character's clothes and minutae up front raises quite a number of red flags at the start of the story.
Another thing I tell everyone is to avoid parenthesis in your narration. Using them to inject sides into your narration is a big no-no, especially if they stand out from the rest of the narration itself or completely take it in a different direction. Doing so tends to be sloppy work. As a rule of thumb, never inject exposition in brackets into your narration, ever, as it tends to break up the narration itself and detract from the feeling of reading it.
If you can use indents, as well, use them or block paragraphing, but never both simultaneously. I prefer to try to use manuscript (indented) formats, because block paragraphing tends to cause the story to become too spaced-out and as a result of everything been to spaced out, linebreaks lose their presence, especially if you're viewing it on a large-format display like mine in plaintext or HTML; that's another reason I use PDFs for my work, because some HTML forms parse out spaces unless you word them using character codes which are a clumsy and awkward way of doing it. I suggest looking up a tutorial on how to do manuscript format; Google returns a lot of good hits and that'd probably be a great place to start for formatting. Formatting's always a killer and I still find myself tripping up over it from time to time.
Thirdly - flaws are not the be-all end-all way to avert Stuism. Under the definition that I follow [Tangodown!, 2011], a Stu is a character that undermines: a) The believability, consistency and/or integrity of its own portrayal, its setting, its author, or the ability of the audience to suspend disbelief. Triple stands out as something that deliberately tries to be too cool, and as a result tends to cut it very close for me. Character flaws, either great nor small will affect this, but it is perfectly possible to have a Sue that displays character flaws and still manages to meet one of or all four of the Tangodown! criteria. While I know that not telling everything up front is a good thing, bear in mind that most readers will develop first impressions of both the character and your ability to write very quickly and in an environment like the PPC's, arguably where we're trying to show up other people's Mary Sues, there's not much room for error. If his calmness and perfection is a facade, take it, play it up, run with it. Just never figure that you're going to be able to take it and run with it later. Keep your audience in mind; net audiences are something of a mixed bag on the internet; often they will not take your word for it that 'it gets better later' and just move onto the next thing. Because your series will not be a coherent work on paper sitting on someone's desk, it is likely they will see some parts of a story and not others. Saying "it gets better later on" or "I'm saving that for later on" is an extremely easy trap to fall into, and it can be dangerous.
Lastly, treatment of "newbies" like that isn't something I personally would encourage or like to see. Jokingly referring to "FNG Syndrome" is one thing. Going out of your way to label, then marginalize or sideline a group is another.
Good luck and keep writing.
Further Reading
DML, (2011, May 4), Tangodown! Specification MS101, Retrieved May 8 2011 from Essays - Tangodown!: http://delta-mike-lima.webs.com/info/TGD-SPC-MS101.pdf
In all honesty, I did not like the writing sample. The spelling, punctuation and grammar were fine, from what I could tell, but there were a number of other problems.
1) ??? being what he put on the application is a good idea, but carrying it over into the story is not. I think it would have been better to use whatever name his partner calls him, or something of that nature. It is hard for someone like me, who hears the words in his head as he reads, to translate ???.
2) The Vampire Rant. Just... No. It completely took me out of the story. It would have been fine if it had been from the character, rather than the narrator, and if there were some reason for the rant. So far as I can tell, there is little about this character that would lead me to say "that guy is a vampire." So, to have a rant like that, with no provocation, just seems really off. Also, if you are going to put something in a story, it is just stupid to tell the audience to disregard it. If you don't want us to pay attention to it, then don't put it there in the first place.
3) ??? has superhuman strength, the ability to remember and recite the List Of Things I Am Not Allowed To Do In The PPC beyond 1176 rules, his furniture is unaffected by an explosion in a confined space, and he looks perfect ALL THE TIME. His only flaw is that he hates being dirty. And that seems not to be a flaw so much as a berserk button (even though he seems to have no emotion) that causes him to threaten a Maintenance worker and his family for something that would be out of said worker's control.
4) Karen is really paranoid that the Flowers are out to get her. So, why is she still here? Why did she join up in the first place?
5) Explosion in the RC and the bricks. I'm asking. I see no reason for either thing, though you may have reasons in mind. Also, how did she manage to harness people to the sledge? That takes a fair bit of work and would not be easy if the person being harnessed was struggling.
1) I've been having trouble thinking up a name for him, actually...though I'm debating just naming him "Triple" now, because of a prior name.
2) My friend is convinced he's a vampire...yeah, I was thinking about cutting it before I posted, but then I just decided to see what people thought.
3) He's actually got more flaws...he's from a story I wrote a looong time ago, and I'm trying to revamp him for this. I like expanding on characters as time goes on, not telling people everything at once, so I'm trying to only write what a first impression might give of him. There are plenty of other small quirks of his...and he gets very embarrassed by people finding out about them.
4) Karen's paranoia about the Flowers is only trumped by her hatred for badfic. Also, it's partially fueled by the fact that she used to stomp on plants as a child for fun. Now she's met talking Flowers...and she's worried they'll want revenge one day...
5) For starters, you'd be surprised how a whack to the head can stop people from struggling enough to get them into a harness. The bricks are for the old fashioned oven she's going to build, and the last RC got blown up because she was attempting to bake with nitroglycerin.
I'll try to make some revisions based on what you've told me. Thanks.
A nickname like 'Triple' feels like an anticlimax compared to something like '???'. Phobos is right, he does need to be called something other that '???' (namely because an ambiguous triple-dipthong with a pronounced rising inflection is absolute hell on the tongue) but I just feel it should be a little more interesting than 'Triple'...
I guess that sounds kind of demanding, doesn' it? Ah, well. That's just my take on things. I have to admit, thought, 'Triple' is kind of growing on me. Hmm.
L'Homme Arbre
P.S. You did a good job editing based on Phobos's critiques, it's much more readable now.
Mkay, Triple is kinda not enough, but what can I call him? Any ideas?
I'm not a PG either, but I'd agree with the "this needs some tweaking" thing. Happens all the time--people apply, modify, re-apply and then get accepted.
I would suggest Terry as your agent's nickname. Why?
Question mark-->Interrogation mark-->Terry.
I'm not sure I see your reasoning for "Terry." Could you explain more?
"Terry" is short for "interrogation point", which is another name for question mark.
What about calling him Lanyon? It's a Cornish name meaning "A cold pool or lake," and my friend (whom I shall call the Fair One) has agreed with me that it would be a good nickname for ??? that he himself would like. We're basing it off the fact that she feels other people would describe him as "cold," and that his eyes would be a notable feature of his. What do you think?
I have a particularly low opinion of what're often perceived as 'meaningful' or 'deep' or 'appropriate' names.
As a general rule, I do not spend more than five minutes thinking about a name for a character. Instead, I leave it up to a random name generator (this is easy for me, as I don't bother with fantasy or otherworldly names) and if I don't like what it spits out, I hit it up again until I find one that I like or play mix and match with the ones that do, then I make sure it's appropriate to the character and appropriate to the place the character's set in. I don't think many of us get to choose our birth names; why should any other fictional character's? Our parents generally name us after things that sound good, or in the directions that they'd like us to aspire to be, or even things they associate with things they like, but of course, a person belongs to nobody but him or herself.
Trying to typecast your character's name is usually something of a waste of time. Of course, sometimes you'll find that names are oddly more appropriate than you originally expected, and if that works, then great, power to you, but otherwise, don't concern yourself with such things right off the start. Focus on what makes Bob or Quel'no-vanta'bedda'name unique and memorable as a character first in terms of development and portrayal, personality and backstory --who they are, what made them that way, and why-- and the rest of the bells and whistles will sort themselves out of their own accord, and often you'll find that you'll get better results out of that approach than trying to be everywhere at once or deciding on what makes that character special up front.
Having a good, rock-solid, believable and consistently well-portrayed and justified background alone will make your character special all on its own. You don't need exotics, mystery, or special names to accomplish this feat.
In all honesty, I think what you should be focusing on is what made your guy what he is, what experiences he's been through, the lessons he's taken from them, and how that's shaped his outlook, worldview, and personality. Start there.
Five minutes on a name. Hmmz, sometimes.
There will be times when one WILL want to pick the 'meaningful name' route-- especially if their character is a symbol or some other literary thing. But it should never be obvious, if one wants to go that route. And other times, one will want a random name.
But sometimes, neither of those are good enough. It's just that far more than meaning goes into a name. One must consider the sound of the name, for one. Should a name sound hard or soft? What emotions should it invoke? What background should it give the character? Should it even sound different from what you'd expect of the character for purposes of contrast?
Consider these names?
A warrior named Dash.
A warrior named Brutus.
A warrior named Sir Helmson.
A warrior named Dagzut Gutsmasher.
A warrior named Patience.
A warrior named Arcandeth.
A warrior named Bob.
Yeah, they were all two second names, but how do they make you feel when you hear or read them? They all invoke drastically different sounds, influences, backgrounds, and feels.
None of these were concocted in particular for a character I had in mind to write in the future. But if I was going to use this method to make up a name for a character of mine, I'd spend far longer than two seconds on this two-second sound-test method. ;)
I agree that the character's character and actions should be memorable, more than his name. But considering that most parents spend more than five minutes thinking up the right name for their kid, it is likely that a character's parents would do too. So when a writer starts to name a character, she has to take in consideration who the parents are and what they would name their kid. This process can take up much more time than five minutes.
In this case there is a character that has decided that he doesn't want to give his real name and filled in ??? on the form. That says something about the character. It also leaves his partner with something she can't pronounce. This could be a good scene for when the agents meet, or it could be a running gag throughout several missions where she tries out different things to call him (such as "hey you" and "Uhm").
That was actually gonna be a running gag for my first few missions. I thought it could be entertaining to have Karen constantly trying to figure out how to pronounce his name, or trying to think up a good nickname.
And...well, honestly, I do have another conflict with the 5-minute name thing. Over the course of my life, I have come to the philosophy that a name influences a person. Have you seen that phone commercial, where the guy's debating getting a phone for his mom, and decides to name his kid Brian because he thinks a Brian will "make eye contact, answer e-mails," etc? People's names are a big part of what they grow up to be. A Selena is a totally different person than a Tabitha. Zachary is nothing like Earl. They'd probably all laugh at an Agnes, whose name would influence her life quite a bit in that regard. Names are how we see ourselves: I could not see myself as anything other than what my real name is. I really do think that a name is a serious matter when thinking up a character.
The obvious counterpoint to your argument is the story of Robert Lane's two sons, Winner and Loser.
http://www.slate.com/?id=2116449&
This is anecdotal (although it does appear to be true) but it shows that a name does not define a person. A Selena is not a totally different person from a Tabitha. If Zachary met himself from a parallel dimension where the only difference was that he was named Earl, there probably wouldn't be a difference.
And most of the kids who grew up with a name that could easily be letter swapped to rhyme with a catchy offensive tune probably grew up to be fine people.
I'll admit, there's some merit to your argument. It might be a perspective thing. There certainly seem to be multiple views, going by what I've seen so far on this discussion. I just am of the personal opinion that a name will help define a person. Other people feel that it's not the name, it's the situations, etc. That's perfectly fine by me, and I'm sure there are dozens of other viewpoints people have too.
We could probably debate this point for hours, on the board or in person. Feel free to go on--I'd love to see how other people think on the subject.
Names can effect you growing up. I have a name that was different enough in the small minded town I grew up in set me apart. I can't say the all the bullying I got as a kid resulted from that, but in my experience once small kids pick a person to pick on that person tends to remain the one picked on, and it doesn't take something huge to set up the initial bullying volleys. Bullying does effect a person's personality.
That said, whether the person named Zachary is actually that much different than the person named Earl, I don't know. However, what other people expect from those names are different. What people expect are formed from many sources. As a personal example (and no offense to anyone out there with this name who is a nice person), I have never known a man who goes by the name Lee that is a decent human being. Neither has my husband. Many other people that I know have said the same thing. These were all different actual names, Lee, Leon, first name, middle name, whatever the person was widely known by the name Lee. They were all terrible. I would never name my kid Lee, if I thought people were going to use that name for his day to day interactions.
Now, I have known several people who had Lee somewhere in their name that went by a different name. My husband for one has a middle name of Lee. He goes by his first name or one of a couple of nicknames based on his first name. I'm obviously of the opinion that he is a pretty great guy. This was actually an issue while I was pregnant with my third son, as people on both sides of the family swore they would never call him by the first name we had picked out, and we'd planning on using Lee as a middle name. We picked a middle name neither of us minded hearing. The families called him that name for about two months, and then decided he's just not a ______, he's a (name we all swore to hate). Go figure.
Like I said that is just a personal thing for me, but if a man introduced himself to me with "Call me Lee." My reactions to him would not be the same as if he had introduced himself as Zachary or Earl, so while the actual person's personality may not be effected--the reactions of other people might be. I know I have read articles in a couple of magazines to this effect, but I cannot find them now.
One last thing. I spent considerable more than five minutes picking out the names of my kids. For characters it goes different ways. Some characters I purely make something up, although this usually ends with me finding out later that what I thought was nonsense is in fact a real word or name. Others I go the random name generator route. Some I think about a lot. For one of my agents I traded my kids something for the use of a name they had made up.
I'm gonna come down on the side of "names are important" and basically agree with Miah: the name itself may not shape who you are, but it absolutely affects how people form expectations about you and react to you, and the same goes for characters. The way I was taught, if the name you choose for your character doesn't tell you something about them, you're doing it wrong. That doesn't mean it has to spell it out in bold-face neon, like Suethors do it--far from it. At the very least, though, it has to suit them (as well as being appropriate for the setting). For me, it always boils down to "it feels/sounds right," but there's a lot that goes into that. Some names sound happy or sad, thoughtful or careless, strong or weak, etc., and that's because of a) the sounds that make them up, b) associations with other bearers past and present, and to a greater or lesser extent, c) the etymology. I'll often spend quite a long time searching for the right fit if the character is meant to hold a prominent role, taking all the above into consideration.
Careless naming can come back to bite you. For instance, why on Earth or off it would a self-respecting guy choose to call himself "Supernumerary"? I have some idea why now, but when Nume started turning into a real character instead of a silly joke name for use in games of Fill the Plothole, it was an issue for me. I'm really grateful that "Evarel" turns out to be a variation on a real name, or I'd have faced a serious dilemma when writing the former RP character into my original fiction, which is on the more realistic side of the fantasy spectrum. (The idiot still insists on bynaming himself Starshade, but that's just the kind of ridiculous showboating thing he would do, so it works.)
As for myself, I took ages to choose Neshomeh as my Internet name, and I picked it because it means something relevant to me and, more importantly, it sounds like me. I didn't choose any of the other words with the same meaning because they didn't fit. Neshomeh does. This is terribly important online, because let's face it, if I was still calling myself SoulFinder, you guys wouldn't look at me the same way: the first thing you'd see of me would be two words smushed together by a silly high school girl who hadn't thought better of it yet.
Names are important.
~Neshomeh
<_>
I mean, JulyFlame is not exactly a common username. It has reasons behind it. It's interesting, unique, certainly more than SoulFinder is. In my book, JulyFlame warrents an explanation; SoulFinder warrents, if anything, a mockery (no offence meant, Nesh).
I mean, even if Nesh was exactly the same as she is now, only her username was SoulFinder, I don't think as a fairly new Boarder I could respect her in the same way I do now. I can respect Neshomeh and JulyFlame with a straight face, which is why they're good usernames.
...
(Reasonably straight, anyway. But that's just about the most you can get out of me.)
If y'all want to act like I was talking about anyone but myself in that paragraph, on your own heads be it.
~Neshomeh
If we can't make fun of our own names, what kind of satirists are we?
At least July has some kind of storied background for hers. I didn't know the word kitsune at fourteen, but I did know that clever canines were awesome, and witches were awesome. (I dearly wish I had known Coyote back when I discovered the Internet.)
I've considered changing it many, many, many times, but it's too much a part of me. No matter how many times I have to go "...Yeah, not a furry, nor particularly into sexy 'vixen' sort of photos," it's still been my name and alter-ego-type-thing since I was fourteen or so. Much like my first name. No matter how many times people go "...So, are you a patient person?" or quote song lyrics, scripture, puns, or Pilgrim jokes at me, it's still what I've answered to for twenty years.
That's the thing about names. "What's in a name?" can actually be quite a lot, even if you really don't want it to.
I also considered changing my username as well. It slowly became non-indicative about myself as I change over time. In fact, it kinda sounds silly to some people.
However, there's a part of me that doesn't want to change it at all. I don't blame that part at all, since I had this username for quite a while now. You could even say that it's somewhat nostalgic.
If I do change my username at all for any reason, then I cannot help but look back at the times where I went by my first username.
Despite my earlier waffling, I completely agree with this. Neshomeh puts to words more or less my exact thoughts.
Although now I wonder if I just seem like a high schooler who smushed two words together :P
I feel like I should mention, I know a Lee, and he's an awesome person. Your point on perspectives is quite valid, and I acknowledge that you probably know more about it than me, seeing as you have children and have gotten to see firsthand how names affect kids growing up.
That being said, I would like to thank you for the input. It always helps, and never hurts.
I agree you shouldn't stress trying to make a deep meaningful name, but you shouldn't limit yourself to a five minute rule.
You don't choose your own name, but your parents might have spent nine months coming up with the name they finally decided to give you.
A random name generator is a nice starting point, as well as various ethnic name lists. If you see something you like, pick it up, try it out. If it doesn't fit, try another.
Actually, I just found a list of names from a particular region (Cornish, in this case) and looked through it until I found a name that I thought sounded cool. His real name isn't actually Lanyon...he just named himself that so people would have something to call him that they could pronounce. His real name is hoooorrible....and will be revealed during a mission at some point.... Anyways, in this case he actually did pick out his own name, and he's such a freak about order and neatness that it had to be something he thought fit him. I'm not trying to make it deep or meaningful--I'm just trying to make it a name he would have decided to let people call himself. His past's still slightly blurry, but I have a fair idea of what it entails, and how it made him who he is. That's influenced part of why I think he would choose that name for himself.
Maybe you could pick something that really *is* ridiculous, but he thinks is deep and profound--possibly have it mean something odd in another language, maybe Spanish or German (something common enough that people will get the joke). There's quite a bit of humor value in that. This guy sounds like he's got way too much dignity for the laws of narrative comedy not to be knocking him down a peg or two.
I cannot speak for Permission myself, being not a Permission Giver and also not being a native English speaker, but I liked it very much. Sure this is one of the oddest couples here in HQ (and Triple-Question-Mark is creepy).
Only one thing: how the hell did Karen stole clothes from Nikki, the Agent I'm going to introduce in my next mission? I was thinking a coat-turtleneck-jeans combination too.
S-say whaaaat? Oh my...I...I'M A MINDREADER! That, or I steal things without even knowing it...? Explains how I got the Mona Lisa in my room....
If you have the Mona Lisa there, do the world a favour and send it to Italy, not back at the Louvre. The best Italian mastepieces of all history has to stay in Italy.
And, yes, I don't like France a lot. For those who want to know why, I'll say only that it involves cars, TV commercials, and some other odd things that I can't remember right now.
However, if Karen hasn't filled up his coat's pockets with grenades, first aid kit, grenades, canon material, grenades, assorted PPC tech, grenades, snacks and grenades it's not a problem.
Oh, did I say grenades? 'Cause Nikki likes them a lot. And the odd thing is that she is a badfic clone of Sakura Kinomoto, who would be afraid to even touch one. But it makes sense in context.
Karen's pockets are mostly filled with cookies. And Dr. Pepper. Not much else. Might be some lint...